As far as I am aware the British government was one of the first people to get it's citizens out of Guantanamo. It was the residence and others that they did not help (why should they???). I totally do not agree with Guantanamo BTW. They should fight to close it yes, but if you are complaining about the way the govenment interferes with British citizens you are choicing the wrong example, I am led to believe anyhow. If you know different let me know please!

I do agree that the state is by no means benign, but I just ask for a little bit of balance. To the everyday Jo, this country has a lot of good things going for it. To compare this in ANY way to Nazi Germany, as has been implied in other posts, to me shows either ignorance of what went on 70 years ago, or just a very bad argument.

Bit there are problems I do agree, but keep the scale correct is all I ask.

But to me, this debate is important ....... and the only way to keep it serious is to keep the hyperbole out and the facts in.

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Ollie

www.jollyfollies.com

Land's End to Sydney 2009

Hi Ollie, I would urge you to read a copy of the book Taking Liberties in order to gain a balanced view. There is no "innocent till proven guilty", no " freedom of speach" either in the UK now. I regret this but must still observe it to be so. Linzi.

Hi Ollie

No hyperbole BTW- not from me anyway. I did not say the UK was the worst, so you'll need to rethink that... And I didnt link the UK to Nazi Germany; please read the post accurately - find out about the word "Stasi". I also mentioned several issues where the UK has denied liberties that were hard won; you don't refer to these issues.

Liberty is not a privilege handed out by governments. It doesn't belong to them like some commodity.

I am against complacency in the UK, where people imagine that everything's OK. Don't forget you are a "subject" in the UK, whose Head of State is a monarch; a country without a written Constitution, and whose Upper House is stuffed with unelected geriatrics.

It's lucky we are also at least European citizens.

Come on Ollie - you've got a lot of reading to catch up on!

OK Linz - challenge accepted and Taking Libertiesordered from Amazon, and due to being a prime customer should arrive tomorrow I will read it asap.

Of course I will read it in the same vein as anything that could be slanted tomwards one side (great example Michael Moore films- yes I am anti bush/war etc, but one has to to the whole truth, otherwise it is just propoganda !!). Looking forward to it.

Cammie - from my response you may think I hold the opposite view to you, but I am not. I am very much a libertarian, and anti monarchy etc etc. But I am also a commited realistic and optimist. Trust me, I am more anti big brother than most, but if all it does it protect us (really not government spin) then, well maybe I am prepared to accept that vs some other 'nasties' that could be coming our way.

Vive la revolution! But be nice too

PS - I may have dragged this thread a little of the original topic. Sorry

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Ollie

www.jollyfollies.com

Land's End to Sydney 2009

Ollie -let's agree that Cromwell had the right idea!!!!!

Cromwell is not a good name for me to mention, being called Oliver and living in Ireland.

Luckily all Irish are well aware that the Cornish are brothers in arms ....!!!!

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Ollie

www.jollyfollies.com

Land's End to Sydney 2009

You are quite right - my sincere apologies to all. I meant his solution to the Monarch problem, and didnt allow for his slaughter in Ireland.

I have never really understood why people raise this as an issue, yes we are subjects rather than citizens, yes we have no constitution, but how many other countries enjoy more personal freedoms than we do?

OK - heres a thought experiment - imagine saying how bad a country this is to live in to someone from the Nazi era, or Stalin Era, Or current Zimbabwe.

Personally I think you would end up feeling pretty goddam embarrassed for not appreciating what you have got, before complaining.

That’s all I ask people, look at the positives, not the just the negatives.

Linzi's experience with the guy who took his boomerang away, the guy was just a dick, and there’s tonnes of them all round the world! It wasn't a sign that we're about to be woken up during the night to have all our boomerangs confiscated. It was a one off stupid act by a stupid man.

Love and Peace

Ollie

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Ollie

www.jollyfollies.com

Land's End to Sydney 2009

Hi Ollie, yes with immigration officers, on return to UK the staff couldn't have been more different and the coutesy shown me was just right. I see what you mean in keeping it in perspective. Years ago I was sitting on a lovely French hill chatting to a German guy who at 17 years old had run over the closed German border, dogs, lights, wall, mines etc! I said how restricted I found West Germany to be. He said that from his perspective in East Germany he found it pleasingly slack. He lived in a converted van! Perspectives and comparisons. My problem is that I compare everything here with New Zealand and what I value is hardly to be found here now. But when I read more about our loss of freedoms I became depressed and angry. The problem is that things could and should be so much better here. Further that we lost so much so recently and all without us noticing. But I agree with you. We were talking at cross purposes. Linzi.

Yes! Let's strive for the very best, if not just for us, but future generations.

I'll try reading some of the book over the weekend Linz .. I might be picketing Starbucks by Monday

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Ollie

www.jollyfollies.com

Land's End to Sydney 2009

Hm, some years ago an Aussie I met made a comment. He had noticed that Scots all seemed to hold opinions on everything. Careful here what he meant and I think correctly noticed is that Scots aren't laissez faire types. I have to live with my upbringing! Someone else once commented that if I dressed as a hippy I'd not be able to pull off the act. Uptight? No, it's some sort of "But it could be better". It is incidentally applied even more harshly inwards! I have just recieved a parcel from South America and it got through customs unchecked. Great! Now I'm off out to sell the contents in small portions and hope to make a big profit and pay for new barrels and pistons for my bike--final trip prepartations! I'm talking hand made knitted products by the way! Linzi.

Steve

I'm a bit concerned about some of your comments in the light of this one. The UK does have a constitution (and most of it is written down in various laws), but we do not have a single document headed "The constitution of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". I used to think this was a strength as I (naively) thought it was harder to tamper with many documents and the first thing new dicators do is to re write the constitution, but I have been proved wrong by the government that now wants to create a database with my personal facts on it, to be sold to whichever commercial organisations donate to the Labour party, or lost on a train.

The UK is also no longer ranked very high in terms of personal freedom; you may not even protest against government policies without applying for police permission (which may be witheld without giving any reason)!

While many other countries have ID cards and some have databases, the one proposed for the UK will be one of the most all enveloping in the world (I did not say the free world, I meant the whole world; even China collects less data on its citizens than the UK). I will leaving for another European country, where I will carryy an ID card with eight pieces of data on it - 49 fewer than the UK expect from me.

Rant over, I'll try to confine myself to motorcycling issues for a while now.

Post Scrip: ...just heard that someone tried to take a picture of this facility at Wythenshawe. He was arrested and his camera taken off him.

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Fastship I still don't see an issue with lots of the points you raise, and indeed I can see benefits in them, rather than quote the whole post I will just address a couple of points:

ID Card - I personally don't have any major issue with a national ID card scheme, in fact a comprehensive ID card scheme could be a convenience in many ways as it provides a single easy method of proving your identity, better than turning up at places with the collection of bank statements, utility bills, driving licences and passport. And having a foolproof (OK that may be optimistic) way of proving my identity could be a benefit.

A national DNA database - I am 100% in favour of this and if they introduced even a voluntary one I would submit my DNA straight away. Why we don't have this already, along with a fingerprint database I don't know, as long as access to them was limited to law enforcement then, in my opinion, the only people that would need to be concerned about them would be criminals.

Regarding e-borders and storing travel history again it is not something I am opposed to, I would imagine such data would be very useful to security services and law enforcement.

Could any of the above be abused, of course they could, but I don't automatically assume that they will be, and if they aren't abused then I certainly don't see them as a threat to personal freedom or liberty.

I suppose it all comes down to personal belief in what the information is being collected for, if you could please answer me the following question:

Assuming that a DNA database, ID cards and the full e-borders scheme was implemented and also assuming that they were used as they should be (access to the information by law enforcement and security services only) then what is the harm?