I have to second that point of view.

I have Vern's panniers.

Never got hurt by them: not saying it would never happen, but personally I value panniers keeping a heavy bike off my leg, keeping my luggage intact, keeping my luggage in my possession, more than the (I would say) realtively low risk of the bike catching my leg...

__________________
Adventure: it's an experience, not a style!
(so ride what you like, but ride it somewhere new!)

Like Mickey says.. Most people start off with hard boxes as it is copycat ! I did it... Expensive lesson. All the magazines, books, catalogues and loads of people on the hubb seems to tell you to buy them.

But what I found is all the people who told me "YOU MUST HAVE HARD ALU BOXES" had never travelled offroad or even out of western Europe. Of course, thats not true of everyone but you get my point.

It's very hard to guage good advice on the Hubb. It is all very well meant but very difficult to judge opinions. I think (and again just my opinion) that you can only listen to people who have actually been there, done that and got the broken expensive boxes (I mean Tshirt).

I used to recommend my Metal mules to anyone that would listen. That was before I actually really knew what it was like to drag them through sand or gravel roads or to try and bend them back to shape so they would close again. (IMPOSSIBLE)

A great deal of people who have travelled with big heavy metal boxes swear that the first thing they will do when they get the chance, is swap to a lighter, softer luggage system.

I think the biggest consideration is the road conditions. If you're riding tarmac or very easy trails then ANYTHING will work and it's not really a problem.

If you are really considering daring or challenging offroad where there is a high chance of multiple drops and tumbles, then IMO you'd be mad to have anything but the lightest, most flexible and easiest to repair luggage. And that means softbags.

I dont think people really realise just how big, wide, heavy and cumbersome these aluminium boxes are until they fit them, load them and then go for a test ride.. "HOLEY F**K" is the usual response !!

Back to the point.... They are big heavy sharp metal things and they can and do fall on you in tumbles. I was trapped under my bike on the Ruta 40 by mine and I do believe that the only thing that saved a break was my massive Alpinestars Tech 10 boots.

Whatever you do.. BUY BIG PROTECTIVE MX BOOTS if you're offroading at all.

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

For some reason. that might have to do with documentation, it looks like someone is trying to remove the focus from the original topic and instead declare that boxes are for the people who never travel far or "real" offroad.
If you check the background of people posting here I would say it proves the opposite. You can also take a look on the HU-calendar.

What about the owner of this bike:



He traveled with the G/S for 400.000 km and he went places nowhere else has gone (like Darien Gap). And the funny thing is that he still uses boxes. Conservative? No I don't think so he has used FI-bikes for almost 10 years and now I think he drives a HP2 (with boxes).

Yes, I'm pro boxes but will probably buy something soft for shorter rides.

HI Ted

I would have to disagree. As a source for information in English on bike travel there's no site better, IMHO. On every forum there are the travel-newbies, bullsh*tters and Touratwat types who think bling is alli king. It's not hard at all to suss out if they have been around and about in the world and what luggage they used.

IMHO Alli boxes are more dangerous for your legs/ankles. Despite this, if you go to a German bike travellers meet (our teutonic friends have been going RTW while we were in nappies and there's a lot more of them) like the Tesch Treffen or Gieboldehausen, most bikes, especially the travel scarred ones, have (scarred) alli boxes. Lots of Germans like it hard.

FWIW, for proper off-road I ride a 400cc single with soft and light luggage, for touring I've got an A/T with alli boxes. If I only had 1 travel bike, it'd be a 600 or 650cc single with soft bags.

Soft luggage technology has moved on a lot. It's now very sturdy and waterproof. In the past It may not have been.

I agree 100%. Also for onroad/easy gravel. Also for commuting. A couple of years ago a car tosser shunted me from the side. My Transalp became an accessory on his front bumper. The left footpeg and rack were attached to his car. My MX boot saved my left ankle from much worse damage.


Hang loose
Chris

__________________

TBS.com

I meant that it's hard to know what to do.. So many contrasting opinions ! For a newbie, its a mine field....

An experienced traveller/rider like yourself can smell the "doo doo" . When i started out, I was sucked into people telling me this and that and it was mostly just a waste of money and "bling".

I guess It always goes back to "whatever works for you" ! I suppose all one can do is learn through personal experience.


I actually have the same "fleet as you". DRZ400S for trail/offroad trips and an Africa twin with hard givi luggage !!

And yeah.. If I could have ONE bike it would probably be a DR650 or TTR600RE with soft bags

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

I won't repeat my experiance and changed view. They are earlier in this thread, and elsewhere.

Another thought for a newbie - why not try the cheaper sytem first (£100 or so). Then, if not happy with them, write a cheque for 10 to 15 times as much.
Far cheaper than learning the other way round, which most (including me) seem intent on doing.

__________________
Vitim Bridge Clubwww.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=533442
www.sibirskyextreme.com

I never meant his thread to be for or against any type of luggage, as this type of discussion leads nowhere.
I wanted experience good or bad with both types and arguments for and against, so I can make my own decision according to my own needs and I think I am getting that ( with a few detours )

I started this thread after reading a travel report where a guy caught his foot on a roadside rock and the hardcase broke his ankle.

One of my highest priorities, as I travel mostly alone, is selfsustainability, which to me means a light machine and light and easily removable luggage.

A horror scenario for me, would be to lie under a heavily loaded BMW in the middle of Mongolia , having to wait for someone to free me (sounds familiar?)

I am also contemplating ways of rounding/protecting edges of the case and maybe have release mechanism á la a ski release, maybe adjustable.

__________________
Poul
May you enjoy peace and good health !

I think it's important to keep things in perspective .

[From their Blogs or diaries ]

Tedmagnum smashed his panniers to pieces riding fast on a gravel road that suddenly turned to sand .Using road biased tyres .

Ted Simon broke his leg against a pannier ,in a fall whilst riding a muddy road also on road biased tyres .

You could therefore conclude that the tyres were also to blame.
Or perhaps people called Ted are predisposed to aluminium pannier accidents .

Hard panniers aren't the only part of a bike that can cause injury ,motorcycling is a risky business at the best of times .
I've had my leg trapped under a bike that had no panniers ,big deal !

There are cheap strong aluminum panniers that cost about the same as a set of premium quality soft bags ,so you don't have to spend a fortune on either kind .

Tedmagnum summed it up very well , wear strong boots !

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Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light. - Spike Milligan
"When you come to a fork in the road ,take it ! When you come to a spoon in the road ,take that also ."

Sounds to me like more judgement would have helped him rather than fewer inches!!

Don't mess with 40 tons of steel!

OK, then.
Based on that I shall refine my previous response:

I have ridden Europe but also South America, on and off-road. Off-road may have been easy for an experienced off-roader but for me, a novice, 2-up on a BM 1150 GS, it was not.

We fell off, never fast, and the panniers never damaged neither myself nor my girlfriend (and I would say she was at greater risk).

The only injury I suffered was a rider's footpeg in the calf muscle (No puncture wound, just heavy bruising). I had touring boots on. MX boots would have protected me, hence a pair of Alpinestarts Tech 3s are now in the wardrobe. They have since protected me when a nice fiesta drive slammed my GS (RIP) and I into a crash barrier...

It easy to say that "my hard luggage hurt me" because one is there when it happens: very little room for misintrepretation.

What is harder to say, but equally valid is, "would harder luggage have protected me?" I am sure there are plenty of riders who have had a limb bruised, cut or worse by a bike landing on them.

I am sure that in some cases the added clearance of hard luggage would have avoided that. Saying which cases is a lot harder, and so the bias will be against hard luggage either way.

Best protection with soft or hard, as already mooted is wear beefy boots.

__________________
Adventure: it's an experience, not a style!
(so ride what you like, but ride it somewhere new!)

My leg was trapped under my metal boxes on a low speed drop. My heavily armoured motocross boot saved me from any injury..

I think decent MX boots will save you from your bike much more than an aluminium box which "could" actually hurt you.

I think the risk of injury is quite far down the list of why not to use hard luggage. The subject has been done to death, brought back to life and then done to death again more times than anyone can even count on this website.

I think Grant could do with a long, detailed, nuetral ,well researched article on the subject sorted out !! Not a "this is better than that" but just a page with all the info so people can make their own decisions.

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

Ted, I think its really pretty simple. No need for a "study".

The fact is, its really about :
1. Image. Hard bags look the part. Feck the extra 50 kgs.!
2. Insecurity. Most don't trust 3 world situations and like to keep everything locked up tight, most would never trust a local to keep an eye out.
3. Stickers! It's all about Stickers!
This joins with #1 ... Image. Got to have a place for Stickers for Dog's sake!!

+1

John

__________________
Nostradamus Ate My Hamster

Heh heh.. Ain't that the truth !!

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

I use both hard aluminum boxes and soft bags. Both hold aproximately 38 litres, so i carry the exact same amount of gear whether i use hard or soft bags. Is one better than the other? Not really IMHO, you just need to adapt to the short commings of each one, both have pro's and cons. Can boxes be more dangerous to your legs? I supose they could, depending on design, like sharp corners, where they are placed on the bike, rigidity, etc. Then again i'm sure there's lots of documentation of people breaking their ankles and have no bags what so ever. Bones break when you fall, regardless what bags you have, dress acordingly. Weight? I have read in this thread claims of 20kg-50kg for hard luggage which i find quite exagerated, maybe they were plated in gold and filled with ballast? I build my own boxes and racks to the same standard as your typical TT equipment, they have never weight more than 10-12kg. combined, probably less. When you have soft bags, you will most likely use a rack of some sort to keep your stuff off the exhaust, so the weight you have left over is probably equal to the amount of fuel you will burn in a day, or the food and water you will pack if going into the mountains to go camping, or maybe a lap top and camera/video gear, etc...It's all relative and not an issue IMHO. If you really want to save weight: go to the gym, stay in hotels, forget the lap top, use a point and shoot camera, eat out, buy tires on the way, don't bring tools you don't know how to use and leave the spares with a friend to ship out to you.. This will only leave you your clothes and toiletries, a small bag and very light.
One major disadvantage i find with hard bags is the ability to twist the sub-frame of some bikes in the event of a crash. Soft bags will just self destruct and leave your stuff skattered all over the road behind you, preserving your precious motorcycle kind of like an airgag in a car . Soft bags are rarely waterproof, easly cut open and are less secure than locked aluminum boxes. Punching a lock makes noise and arouses suspicion, a razor blade is silent.
Aluminum boxes can be way more expensive, but there are cheap options out there if you look hard enough. My Steel Pony's cost me nearly $500 in the end, not cheap for canvas. Both aluminum boxes and soft bags are equally fixible, whether you need a hammer, drill and rivets, or a needle and thread, all of which are available anywhere in the world.
Finally, to the OP, please forgive all the childish bantering going on in this thread, instigated and followed through yet again by the same group of people. This got old along time ago, and i can't tell you how many interesting threads have been ruined by this same group, arguing with each other and taking things WAY . Give it a rest guy's, we're all tired of it. Take it to the Bar or go to Joe Mama.

Mr Ron sums this up pretty well, nice post!


I agree on this one... That's why I have stopped to respond to most of MollyDog/Mickey D's post to keep the spam-level down.