Thanks to all who responded to this. We are now the new owners of a 2001 650 GS which we bought this morning from a dealer in Chichester.

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If you think you are too small to make a difference you have never spent the night with a mosquito.

the very best of luck with it.

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The electric monk always has faith.

If anyone wants more info on the differences this site is good

F650 History, Differences and Purchasing FAQ

Hope you like it and that it's not one out of the same stable as the one(s) discussed here: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...-failure-38514
Chris

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TBS.com

Thanks Chris.
This is the kind of information I really didn't want to hear about, but now I have I feel I should be doing something about it. I'm just not sure what though.
My previous BMW experience is from the mid 80s when I bought a 7 year old R100RS. Over the next 2 years I did 200,000 miles on that bike with very few problems. BMW even gave me a new front wheel for it under a recall for suspected faulty castings. Looks like the faulty castings are still an issue 25 years later but not the willingness for a recall!

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If you think you are too small to make a difference you have never spent the night with a mosquito.

Yeah, that is unacceptable. But again it's only the older models, so an informed consumer shouldn't have any worries about this.

Unfortunately for BM they don't understand the power of the internet because this is just another nail in the coffin of their reputation.

Things like this could have happened in the pre-internet age without any off us ever knowing. Not anymore.

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Tacos Tyring Travels.com

That list is relevant beause most of the issues are the same on the GS (and Dakar)...

The headstock bearings in my opionion are due to low quality factory items, being undergreased at installation and not properly checked and tightened at first service after bedding in..

Although.....

Most bikes don't get this either but the whole failure process is accelerated by the IDIOTIC design to house the bearings in a hot frame oil bath. The heat of the oil pretty much evaporates the grease out of the bearings.

I would personally put taper bearings in and use a VERY high quality lithium high temperature grease and keep checking them for tightness.

I've worked on and have personal experience of most of the common overlanders choice bikes and they are mostly so much easier to work on and better thought out than the F650GS/dakar. Big Enduro tanks are often easier to remove than stock items as they often do away with the radiator panels, vacumb pumps and hidden piping etc.

I have an Africa Twin and a DRZ400S at the moment. The AT is no easy machine to work on either but its beauty is that it never breaks down, it never needs working on, it's bullet proof...

The DRZ is more fragile but you can take it apart with a pair of spoons and a chocolate screwdriver. You can have the engine out in 30 mins !! It's got great suspension and a very reliable engine... not for everyone though.

The vibes on the F650GS come and go it seems.... Poor suspension set up, a poorely balanced engine and the whole build quality seem to let it down. Having never ridden one at length though, I can't really comment.

There's no perfect bike, they all have their faults, it just seems the F650 has more than its fair share with nothing really special to make up for it ????

I think the 600 Transalp, the DR650 and the Vstrom, XT660Z whoop the F650 series for a million reasons but they don't market as hard as BMW in this catagory.

That said, plenty of F650GS's make it around the world with no problems, but I think thats mostly their owners don't even realise when something isnt right. They tend too be be a little wet behind the ears when it comes to mechanics or even bikes in general.

A huge amount of newbie travellers buy them. The irony is, they bought the BMW because they thought it was the best quality and made for the job !

Great marketting again !

When I got into mechanics and overlanding (they went hand in hand), I thought the same too.. BMW is synonymous with quality is most peoples minds due to their cars and reputations of old.

Sadly, it isnt the case with the f650GS !!! It's black and white, the numbers are there, the case studies are numerous, its FACT .. They break down and fall apart A LOT and when they do, they are EXPENSIVE to fix and a PAIN to fix !

Sorry if I insult any F650GS owners, I would be pissed if someone was slagging off my pride and joy too.

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Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

I'm sure you've done this already: Read all the stuff about the incident(s) on Advrider, Chaingang and here on the HUBB. Compare your bike's front end to the before/after modification pictures and check chassis numbers of the bikes that broke to yours to see if they are in the same batch. Regularly check the bike for cosmetic damage which might precede a real mishap. Statistically I won't happen to your wife.

I have other bits of advice too, but will not submit them as they would only be for very cheap laughs. My opinion of BMW build quality is a matter of public/HUBB record.

See you at the next Up North meet at Cropton in February? I recall you were both there last time we had a meet there.
cheers
Chris

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TBS.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedmagnum That list is relevant beause most of the issues are the same on the GS (and Dakar)....

I agree for the GS on the:
· waterpump (although heaps of bikes haev them fail eventually although possibly not that early),
· sump plug (needs a fumoto anyway),
· shock (which most bikes have issues with overloaded),
· battery (all overlanders need a maintenance free one though),
· wires behind the shock adjuster (which need sorting out with a better shock anyway),
· bent suspension linkage bolt (although mine weight 265 + fuel and rider and I rode it hard on Ruta40 but had no problem but it has happened to others), and surging (only the earlier models).
But not the

· Rusty Bar End Weights/Electronic Bits Cover,
· Voltage Regulator,
· Corroded Rims,
· Worn Carb Needles,
· Jets, O-Rings (4#),
· Flaky/Depressed paint under Tank Allen Hex Bolts,
· Cheesy/Rusty Exhaust Stud Nuts,
· Check Rubber Carburettor Inlet Manifolds plus Oil Pipes from frame for cracking,
· Rounded Fork Cap Bolts,
· Shot Wheel Bearings,
· Shot Clutch Actuator Arm Shaft</B> -
· Possibly '94/'95 Soft Shafts or too Stiff Springs,
· fuel Hose Hardening and Fuel-line Clamp Loosening,
· Pull UP on the luggage rack at the back to make sure the welds of the (cheesy-ass) welds into which it bolts have not broken (yet),
I'm not sure on the

· Plug Caps & Leads (have heard about this on F650.com, but haven't experienced it),
· Possibly Worn Rubber Seals on the Rocker Cover Bolts
· Popping out of 2nd Gear, Worn Shifting Drum/Dogs, Difficulty Shifting 1st/2nd
(note that the F650 is difficult even from NEW between 1st and 2nd)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedmagnum The headstock bearings in my opionion are due to low quality factory items, being undergreased at installation and not properly checked and tightened at first service after bedding in.. .

I added grease to them at every service interval, but they still went at the 18000km mark on one bike. My new DRZ400E also had hardly any grease on all the bearing. So it's definately a must do on new bikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedmagnum Most bikes don't get this either but the whole failure process is accelerated by the IDIOTIC design to house the bearings in a hot frame oil bath. The heat of the oil pretty much evaporates the grease out of the bearings.

The GS doesn't have the oil in the frame. So the bearings (which are tapered already) aren't affected by heat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedmagnum I've worked on and have personal experience of most of the common overlanders choice bikes and they are mostly so much easier to work on and better thought out than the F650GS/dakar. Big Enduro tanks are often easier to remove than stock items as they often do away with the radiator panels, vacumb pumps and hidden piping etc.

That's weird than, because I can honoustly say that out of th 3AJ Tenere, TTR250, F650 Dakar and the DRZE I wouldn't pick the F as the hard to work on bike. I love having the tank under the seat. To me it makes it easier. But really, can't think about anything out of the ordinary that needs doing which has access problems. The TTR is by far the easiest. Something like changing coolant is easier on the F than the DR IMHO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedmagnum The vibes on the F650GS come and go it seems.... Poor suspension set up, a poorely balanced engine and the whole build quality seem to let it down. Having never ridden one at length though, I can't really comment.

It has to be a damaged mounting point. The change is just to sudden and severe to be something like wear. It's also too young.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedmagnum There's no perfect bike, they all have their faults, it just seems the F650 has more than its fair share with nothing really special to make up for it ????

If I would have had any problems with something that BM or Rotax made I would agree. But it's simply not the case in my experience. Our trip went effortlessly with the exception of the shock (warranty) and the water pump for which I was prepared with the flexible hose and spares.

On our rebuilt (from the ground up) Tenere’s we did have problems though. But it’s not easy to compare old with new.

I think with the owners you hit the nail on the head. Most BM owners wouldn’t know how to do anything other than maybe change the oil. So you can’t really assume that the commonly reported faults would have been worked on either and might add to the number of reported issues. The amount of times I don’t read about issues that are well documented and are left unresolved before the trip is startling.

That said, I do love the simplicity of my DRZ but it’s just too small for my liking for a RTW trip. I would love to take it around Mongolia though.

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Tacos Tyring Travels.com

Thanks Chris. I'd love to be at the meet but now we're living down south it's not really practical to make the northern meets.
The other reason is that if it takes place when planned we'll be riding in India (neither Harleys nor BMWs!).
Hope to see you at Ripley though.
Regards
Paul

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If you think you are too small to make a difference you have never spent the night with a mosquito.

PaulD,

I am currently looking into the Vstrom 650 & the F650 GS... can you give me a few more comparisions on the pluses & minues as you see it?

Also, you mentioned you were on a twin... this means you were on a 2008 or later model, correct?

Hi
have you looked in this sub-forum: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/which-bike/ ?

There are many comparison of bikes threads here.

cheers
Chris

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TBS.com

Hi Chris, thanks for the heads up, yes, I am aware of that forum... if you notice I started a thread there too a few days back.... it just seemed PaulD had some direct relevant experieince I could use that no one has addressed in the other thread.

Popex,
Yes I have ridden both the F650 Twin and the V-Strom on both off road and tarmac. Firstly off road the F650 was superior in heavy sand as I could control it better, I think mainly due to the 30 odd kg weight difference, now on corrogations the V-Strom just ate them up it was just alot smoother easier to handle allround. Tarmac well open roads I am afraid the V-Stom wins again, a more comfortable seat coupled with a more relaxed riding style, may be also the added weight could be an advantage as well. Now twistees and mountain roads the F650 Twin wins hands down, alot more ground clearance, a bit smaller so a bit nippier around the corners (Needs a better back tyre 'imo') So if I were to choose a bike for mainly around town to and from work with the odd weekend away I would choose the F650 Twin however if I were to do a RTW it would be a V-Strom.
Hope this helps !

Thanks
Paul

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