Why are there not more bikes with tubeless tyres for worry-free adventure touring?

[Tim Cullis]

If you get a puncture in a tubeless tyre you can be back on the road within 20 minutes. Find the puncture spot, ream it out, insert a mushroom plug, and reinflate the tyre. Magic. Last year I took my old F650GS twin on one of the Moroccan trips instead of the Tenere for exactly this reason, and sure enough I got a puncture. But it was easily sealed as shown below.



However if get a puncture in a tubed tyre it involves removing the wheel, taking the tyre off, swapping out the tube (I would never try to mend on the piste), refitting the tyre and putting the whole caboodle back together again. And if you have a Tenere you'll know that the rims are deep and taking tyres off and on is difficult. And if you don't have a centre stand...

To complicate matters I tend to travel with thick HD tubes with normal tubes as a spare, so once I reach civilisation I get the HD tube vulcanised (see photo below), and then go through the whole palava again of removing the wheel and tube to refit the HD tube.


(praying helps the vulcanisation process)

Typically if your bike has alloy wheels it has tubeless tyres, if it has spokes it has tubed tyres. But this isn't always the case. BMW's 1200GS Adventure and KTM's 1190 Adventure have spoked wheels that allow tubeless 19-in fronts and 17-in rears, and KTM's 1190 Adventure R and BMW's HP2 Enduro have spoked tubeless 21-in fronts, and the KTM has an 18-in rear. So the technology definitely exists.

KTM's 2014 690 Supermoto R has tubeless tyres with (rather natty metallic orange!) spoked rims, so why can't the 690 Enduro R have the same? Or am I missing something here?

Apart from the ease of puncture repairs there are other advantages to tubeless. Saving 600g of unsprung weight per wheel is supposed to be a really big deal (and more like 1000g if you are using HD tubes). Also you can run low pressures without the need for rim locks as the valve isn't connected to a tube that could otherwise move around and tear off. But I hardly ever run low pressures in Morocco on tubed tyres as the pistes are sand one minute and rocks the next, and if you are have tubes you run the risk of getting a 'snake bite' puncture where the tube is pinched between the rim and the rocks.

It seems the only alternatives are to have your own tubeless wheels built by someone like Alpina at a cost in excess of £1200, go for the Tubliss system at about £200, or fit mousses at around £200. Tubliss has a reputation for slow air leaks and I would worry that mousses tend to wear too quickly for an extended tour, and it's difficult to get replacements in remote places, so neither seem ideal.

I've tried slime (inside HD tubes) yet I still had a puncture that it couldn't seal, so I ended up in a real slimy mess changing the tube.

So what I can't understand (maybe I'm missing something?) is why more manufacturers don't fit tubeless rims as standard or at least offer them as an option. Can anyone enlighten me?

[rusty max]

Hi Tim,

You are dead right,it is absolutely easy.I always carry a little slime compressor,not the liquid green stuff and a set of plugs.Here in Oz,outside the beaten track,punctures can happen easily,a central stand is helpful and off you go in no time.Wouldn't go without them.

Sorry,but I can't enlighten you any further,but need some of it quite often.

Cheers

M.R.

[mollydog]

Tough prooblem. Many cast tubless wbeels not tough
Enough. One new entry in spoked tubless is yam tenere 12.
Any feed back on how they hold up to big hits?

My vstrom wheels were tough but i did dent them.

Nice to see you were able to put a pllug in that knobly!

[oldbmw]

The real problem with tubeless arises when the tyres leak air between tyre and wheel rim and this seems to happen when the wheel is alloy. In a genuine million miles or more driving cars I only ever had this happen during a 2 month period when I had alloy wheels on a car. I have never had this happen with steel rims.
In about 150,000 miles on motorcycle I have had two punctures on tubed wheels, both times it was the rear wheel. once in 1962 and the second time on teh way to Poland in 2010 In 3 years and about 12,000 miles I had rim seals fail on my BMW tubeless tyres, several times. I ended up running them with tubes. As there was no other fix to try o except maybe buy new wheels.

This has been my experience, I may be against the flow here but there you are.

[AliBaba]

All boxer GSes have rims for tubeless tires fitted.

There are several nice points with tubeless but most of the times I ended up with running tubes. Mainly because:

- There are few real offroad-tyres suited for tubeless
- On an extended trip you might need to run tubes anywhere because of problems with rim/tyre
- It's difficult (but not impossible) to seat the bead on tubeless with a small handpump

On the other hand I would not go on a trip without a centre stand, tubeless or not.

So I went the other way and converted my tubeless rim to tube-type :confused1:

[Toyark]

Could it be because of the availability of:

• Moto Centre stands
• Slime type products
• Michelin Moto / Buzetti _ / Motion Pro T6 combo tyre levers
• Meet ups where people learn tricks to fix punctures and practice
• and other kit

But I confess that a BestRest plugger kit on tubeless rim does really make repairs so much quicker and easier.

An inner tube will also enable you to repair a cut tyre.
If you have some of those special spoked wheels which don't require a tube ( and you're not carrying means to repair) then you go and slice a tyre- you're stranded.
To alleviate your worries Tim, perhaps the answer is for you to practice more until you've built up confidence in your ability to fix flats and remove the worry?

[Threewheelbonnie]

I doubt Tim is short of practice

Bikers like to bang on about semi-pointless minor technical detail like the "Soul of a V-twin" but honestly boys, its mostly fashion. Tubed or tubeless, for the time difference over the life of a bike there is no real difference. Now the look of the bike in the show room; that sells as surely as not putting red shoes with a green handbag.

Why do Moto Guzzi offer both in the same range? 1. to gather the odd sale from techno nit-pickers and 2. to make sure both buyers of red shoes and green handbags come through the showroom door.

I'd choose tubeless in a free vote but no way would I spend anything to convert from tubed to sealed-with-shower-and-bath-gloop. Nor will I be buying any certain brand of bike to get one or the other. I've had 5 punctures in the last 50000 miles, four tubed one tubeless.

Andy

[Danny Diego]

"Adventure" and "worry-free" are two terms that don't go together.

They really don't.

Ask Ted Simon, Austin Vince, Grant Johnson, et al...

[oldbmw]

Originally Posted by Danny Diego

"Adventure" and "worry-free" are two terms that don't go together.

They really don't.

Ask Ted Simon, Austin Vince, Grant Johnson, et al...

I don't think you should worry about what might happen. Just take reasonable care and deal with what life throws at you when it arrives. I have found if the general strategy is sound then the details don't really matter so much. I learned this programming major projects. No amount of scary coding can make a stable program if the strategy is wrong for example, windoze

[Tim Cullis]

Originally Posted by Bertrand

To alleviate your worries Tim, perhaps the answer is for you to practice more until you've built up confidence in your ability to fix flats and remove the worry?

Ha, that has to be tongue in cheek, demi-frog!

Sounds like you've never tried changing the rear tyre on a Tenere. Chris Scott writes about the problem at Sealing spoked rims to run tubeless tyres | Adventure Motorcycling Handbook

Although running tubes, the Tenere has a tubeless-style safety rim.

I've had three rear punctures and two front punctures on the (tubed) Tenere in 50000km. On my (tubed) XR400R I had two punctures in 30000km. None so far on the (tubed) KTMs. But in more than 300000km on tubeless tyres on 1200GS, GSA and F650GS twin, I've had just one puncture.

[retryrider]

The Tiger Explorer XC has spoked wheels with tubeless tyres. Guessing Triumph had to compete with the GS.

The 800XC still has tubed however. Hopefully theyll give the option in a later model.

[mollydog]

Problems exist with both tube and tubeless systems. No prefect system really.

Tubeless negatives:
Cut tire (you'll need a tube to continue)
bust rim (no seal, tire won't inflate)
Cracked rim (can happen with some cast wheels)
Weight (tubeless spoked wheels can be heavy)
If bead ever does break (unlikely) .. can be a PITA to get it to inflate.

Tube negatives:
PITA removing wheel, breaking down tire/changing tube, remounting.
Packing spare tubes (but really required with BOTH systems)
Patch kit that actually works
Instant Air loss with big puncture (this can be dangerous)

Comment on SLIME or Ride-On or other products that go in your tube/tire before you get a flat:

It's true ... they don't always prevent a flat ... but often DO, especially if you run over a small staple, nail or cactus thorn. The sealer may not always 100% stop the leak ... but often can slow it down. This can allow you to ride ahead to a convenient place to do a repair.

But the MAJOR reason I run Slime (have done over 10 years) is to mitigate instant, catastrophic air loss. This is most worrisome on front tire when riding at speed on paved roads. Anyone ever had a flat when leaned way over in a corner at 70 mph with a tubed tire?

The rear can also "step out" if it goes instantly flat. All these things can kill you if you ride fast. A loaded bike is worse.

What SLIME, Ride-On or other products can help with ... is to at least slow down air loss ... giving the rider a warning and time to get safely off the road.

A few SLIME tips:
Some say it's messy. Did you know it's water soluble and rinses off clean in seconds?

Don't try to patch a tube with SLIME in it ... unless you have lots of time. Most times the SLIME will work the patch loose. It can be done ... but requires "technique".

Same goes with Tubeless tire plugs. If you have SLIME in your tire, the plug with slowly come out. It may hold for a while but may leak air or slowly work its way out. Happened to me on my 1050 Tiger. I got home riding
300 miles (airing up every 2 hours), then removed tire, washed out SLIME, remounted ... all good with new Plug installed.

Breaking down tires is an Art. Good tools and technique a must, along with good strength. Some tires are tougher than others to break the bead on.
Bring tools! When you think you're good at breaking a bead and changing a tube ... remember that ISDE guys can do it ALL in One Minute 30 seconds. (on average). Includes removing wheel, and reinstalling it.

[Warin]

I've run both..

Tubed
+ simple, reliable. .. can be made to work with a large hole in the tyre, or a cracked rim ... or both.
- Time taken to fix. Your on tour .. time is not an issue. Relax. Have a tea. It is a bit much in the hot sun though.


Tubeless
+ easy and quick to fix a normal flat.
- Must have tubeless type tyres.
- Difficult to change tyres
- Must have back up tube for emergencies (rim dent, tyre rip etc)
- if you run too low a pressure the tyre can burp and loose even more pressure.
------------------
Rate of flats .. I suspect the tyre has a large part to play here .. tubeless tyres are usually heavier and thicker than the tube type tyres .. and thus get less flats just from their increased thickness and density. If you want to compare then run the same tyres with the same bikes riders etc .. one with a tube the other without and see.

===================
Tube type rims ....Yes the 'newer' type rims have a significant lip .. older rims don't have it and are much easier to change. The newer ones are supposed to be better if you have a blow out. Your choice - keep the supposed increase in safety .. or remove some of the lip to make it easier to get the tube out. I remove about 200mm length of one the lips opposite the valve.

[reggie3cl]

Beemer, Super Ten and Triumph (and others?) all have tubeless. Reckon it's down to cost mostly- bet those cross spoke wheels cost a bomb to make, but they aren't half strong.

One thing- are tubed tyres usually crossplies? If they are, then that is a good reason to go tubeless and enjoy radials instead. I hate crossplies.

As for fixing- do I want to remove a wheel, then the tyre and fanny about with tubes when it's 45 degrees in the shade? Do I hell, 5 minutes and a plug in a tubeless is my bag. I once had a rear tyre on an XJ900 sliced by a flint in France and the guy just put a patch on the inside of the tyre Got me home though....

[*Touring Ted*]

My two pence worth...

There is no doubt that a SMALL puncture is much easier to fix on a tubeless tyre. Effortless....

And if I were road riding in western countries (where spares and repairs are easy) then I'd go for tubeless all day long..

However, there are CONSIDERABLE drawbacks to tubeless wheels on a motorcycle when over-landing.

Cast rims are far more fragile. They have no 'give' and 'flex' that you get in a spoked rim. Those spokes are a latices of shock absorbers. They don't help with off-roading at all. More weight and harsher ride... This can lead to cracks..

If you crack or break a tubeless wheel you are well and truly stuck. If you're lucky you will find someone who can TIG weld your wheel whilst keeping the correct profile and bead in place. Good luck with that though. It's a specialist job.

Snap a spoke or ding your wheel and unless you're REALLY unlucky, you can keep on rolling.

If you split a tyre on a tubeless wheel you are also screwed. You aren't repairing that one. No amount of slime and wedges are going to help you. I put a 2" gash in my rear tyre in Ethiopia. With a tube, I was able to ride another 60 miles to a town where I patched the tyre and carried on another 200 miles before I could replace it. If I did that with a tubeless tyre, Id probably still be on that remote village road now or hundreds of pounds worse off trying to get a tyre shipped in.

Availability of tyres are DRAMATICALLY increased with tubes as well. You can almost run anything... This is also a huge factor on a long trip.


So yeah, fixing punctures in tubes is a pain in the arse. But at least I CAN fix it and get moving again.

And all this "BMW spoked wheels are great" is cack. Yes you can fix a small puncture like normal tubeless but those tyres are VERY difficult to change if you have to. You see 'GS Adventure' Riders with spare tyres that they intend to use as spares if they gash theur tyres...

Even with the big professional tyre machines at work, it's a struggle... They can take 120 PSI to re-seat too. Even with plenty of tyre soap.... I wouldn't even bother to try and change one by hand. Fools errand unless I was absolutely forced to try.

Another tip... If you're a GS rider, DO NOT run RDC pressure sensors. They are the flimsiest things in the world. They snap off just by looking at them and make tyre changing even more difficult. There is a special way to change tyres with them on a machine so you don't destroy them. Someone with no experience of them will probably tear them off on a tyre machine..

I've lost count of the amount of bikes that end up at our place on recovery trucks after the poor owner snapped off the aluminium valve stem with very little force. You can't repair them and you need to re-valve the wheel. Try that on the side of the motorway...

All so you can see your tyre pressures on your dash board....