Go Back   Horizons Unlimited - The HUBB > Regional Forums > South America

South America Topics specific to South America only.
Contact Overland Solutions for all your custom modifications and setup for overland travel.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 30 Dec 2009
Registered Users
New on the HUBB
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 6
Buying US registered bike in Argentina

Hello,
I am an american citizen in Argentina looking to buy a bike here. Would like some info about how to buy and register a US registered bike from other travelers.
How long would I be able to ride around Argentina with it? Would I be able to travel to the surounding cuntries? Is this my best option or would it be better to buy a bike in Chille?
Thank you for the help and happy riding.
Vlad
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 30 Dec 2009
cruthas's Avatar
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Boulder, co
Posts: 109
Vlad,

Check this post out. http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...-legally-31965

If you are a US citizen, and the bike is registered in the US it is pretty straight forward. It comes down to if you can see the pick, and if you want to buy a bike you can't see. Mailing paperwork back to the states, registering it and shipping paperwork back to Argentina. This is the only way I know of. I have heard of people forging documents becasue border officials will never no the difference. Hope this helps and good luck!
__________________
keep your front wheel ahead of your rear wheel
www.mototheworld.com
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 31 Dec 2009
Gold Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 655
Vlad important data, for you and other foreign tourists...

Hi Vlad, I strongly encourage that anyone entering a South American country on a tourist visa.... and is considering purchasing a foreign registered motorcycle (USA,UK,Australia,Germany etc) read carefully the following thread.

The thread is found in the South and Central America and Mexico forum of the HUBB.

Information wanted from experienced bikers in South America ( 1 2 3)

Buying a USA registered motorcycle in South America is illegal for a number of reasons described in detail in the above noted thread.

After many hours of researching the Department of Transportation of every one of the 50 States of the United States, I have discovered that all now require the signitures of any transfer of title to be notarized by a notary certified in the State of title.

And/or , there are time restrictions for the new "owner" to complete other processes, in many states for example, the seller is required by law to
return the license plate to the Department of Motor Vehicles,
and the buyer provide documentation of residence in the State as a requirement for securing a license plate for the motorcycle.

And, the Temporary Vehicle Import Permit that is issued to the owners of all foreign registered bikes in any South American country clearly prohitbits the sale of the motorcycle in country.

Plesae read the thread, and you will see how every argument for the legality of one foreign tourist buying a USA registered motorcycle from another foreign tourist is defeated by the presentation of the appropriate laws and regulations.

My advice based upon existing laws and regulations, common sense and a strong desire to prevent you from losing your freedom is Don't do it!

Any insurance coverage you might purchase with fraudulent title (faked, photoshopped etc) will become null and void long before the insurance company pays an attorney to represent you in case of an accident, and you will be charged with criminal offenses, if the court is alerted to the fact that you fraudulently imported a foreign registered motorcycle. You might also be charged with fraudulently purchasing insurance for a bike still legally owned by the seller, and the seller will ultimately be held accountable for damages too.

I am very disappointed in those who continually promote the crime of fraudulent title transfer in South America and when confronted with the actual laws and regulations that prohibit such a title transfer - well they just disappear for a while until someone new shows up wanting to buy. Cruthas, I am not speaking specifically about you, please tell me the one or more States of the United States to which you refer???? You might also want to read the thread I have suggested to Vlad.

I should mention that without valid motorcycle insurance, in the event of an accident you risk being arrested and staying in jail until the courts sort out fault, the local police are not authorized to determine fault in an accident with substantial property damage or personal injury. The court dockets are very full in all South American countries and your stay in jail awaiting justice could be many months.

Please respect the laws of South America.

As a foreign tourist, you are legal to purchase a motorcyle registered in each South American country you visit, and you are legal to sell, after your tour. There are several threads on the HUBB dedicated to this topic...

Hope this helps, read the thread indicated above for more detailed information.

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 31 Dec 2009
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Rockhampton, Australia
Posts: 890
Hi Vlad, I am currently heading your way and would like to sell my bike in BA, sometime in late Jan early Feb


It is a California registered bike and I have the title and papers with me. But, I will be heading back to the states after so paperwork should be no issue.

If you are interested in a DL650 Vstrom, 2007 with some gear on it, let me know.

Cheers
TravellingStrom


QUOTE=Vlad;269722]Hello,
I am an american citizen in Argentina looking to buy a bike here. Would like some info about how to buy and register a US registered bike from other travelers.
How long would I be able to ride around Argentina with it? Would I be able to travel to the surounding cuntries? Is this my best option or would it be better to buy a bike in Chille?
Thank you for the help and happy riding.
Vlad[/QUOTE]
__________________
www.travellingstrom.com
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 1 Jan 2010
Gold Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 655
Please Explain

TravellingStrom, how does you statement below, the fact that you are getting out of Dodge - old cowboy slang ..."meaning leaving the country" resolve the Temporary Vehicle Import Permit issued to you and your California registered bike?

The only legal way would be to pay the Import fees and have an Argentine, or legal permanent resident of Argentina register the bike in Argentina, then and only then could your california registered bike be legally sold in Argentina.

By the way the process mentioned above takes about 6 months and the Import fees, as determined by the aduana (customs) might well be more than your asking price for the bike.

"It is a California registered bike and I have the title and papers with me. But, I will be heading back to the states after so paperwork should be no issue."

Do you think that you leaving the country (take the money and run) is in any way an incentive for any buyer, you should perhaps rethink your promotional campaign.

You should also research your claim that "paperwork should be no issue." It might not be an issue for you because you plan on "getting out of Dodge" , but how about the buyer?

Please explain I am really, really interested.

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 1 Jan 2010
Registered Users
HUBB regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Santiago, Chile
Posts: 35
Notary Services Overseas

Local US Consulate (American Citizen Services) provides notary services to US citizens overseas. It's normally a fee for service and it's a pain to get in the door (ever since some cranky folks developed a fondness for blowing up embassies), but the service is available. The consulate in BA is at the Embassy. Suggest you give 'em a call first.

It's sometimes surprising what you can do legally with a little patient and polite perseverance.

cheers --

Haciendolo…
__________________
Mike R.
Santiago, Chile
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 1 Jan 2010
Gold Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 655
US Notary Service at the Embassy

Mike51, thanks for the advice regarding Notary Service at the US Embassy,

I sincerely doubt the Consul at the US Embassy can be convinced to notarize a US title transfer if the seller is a foreign tourist and the buyer is a foreign tourist and the motorcycle has entered Argentina on a Temporary Vehicle Import Permit.

Here is why:

Earlier last year, and it was posted on the HUBB, several foreign diplomats in Buenos Aires - not US, were arrested for the illegal transfer of foreign registered vehicles that had entered Argentina on Temporary Vehicle Import Permits.

This was front page news here for several days, and the investigation is ongoing. The diplomats sold their personal vehicles to Argentines and to each other. It is illegal to sell or buy any foreign registered vehicle that has entered Argentina on a Temporary Vehicle Import Permit, without first paying the import fees, and then registering the vehicle in Argentina, (this can only be done by an Argentine or a legal permanent foreign resident of Argentina), then and only then can the vehicle or motorcycle be legally sold in Argentina.

The reason I have provided the actual laws regarding foreign title transfer in South America is that I witnessed first hand, what happened to career diplomats who were arrested by chance and in a sting operation.

As a professional, I know how difficult it is to be appointed as a Foreign Service Officer/diplomat and that each has an obligation, not only to himself or herself, but to the country each represents. For a diplomat to be arrested or exiled, is a career ending stigma.

Mike51, have you no consideration for that employee of the Consular Section who notarizes documents? By reading this thread, you must know by now that you are putting at risk that person's career, by even asking them to notarize the illegal sale of a US registered vehicle in Argentina.

And, the notary must be certified by the State of the United States holding title to the motorcycle, I sincerely doubt that any State will accept an illegal overseas title transfer, and considering the recent title transfer problems on the diplomatic front, you might be at risk by even asking a Notary at the US Embassy to witness the signatures for an the illegal transfer of a foreign registered motorcycle.

It is so easy for a foreign tourist to legally purchase an Argentine registered motorcycle in Argentina, tour and then legally sell, or park, the Argentine registered motorcycle in Argentina, I have no idea why anyone would even consider buying a foreign registered motorcycle in Argentina.

Happy New Year

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 1 Jan 2010
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 1,003
Xfiltrate, I believe that some of your statements are wrong, which makes me doubt your other statements:

Quote:
Originally Posted by xfiltrate View Post
And, the notary must be certified by the State of the United States holding title to the motorcycle,
This is not correct; in general, a document notarized by a notary of one state must be accepted in another state. Please provide evidence of this claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xfiltrate View Post
Mike51, have you no consideration for that employee of the Consular Section who notarizes documents? By reading this thread, you must know by now that you are putting at risk that person's career, by even asking them to notarize the illegal sale of a US registered vehicle in Argentina.
You would not be "putting at risk that person's career"; as long as the signatories are who they say the are, a US notary has done their job. They do not, and indeed in many states cannot, give advice about what is legal or not. There are many legitimate reasons why a US citizen might need a title transfer notarized in Argentina. I don't think you understand how US notaries work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xfiltrate View Post
Earlier last year, and it was posted on the HUBB, several foreign diplomats in Buenos Aires - not US, were arrested for the illegal transfer of foreign registered vehicles that had entered Argentina on Temporary Vehicle Import Permits...The diplomats sold their personal vehicles to Argentines and to each other. It is illegal to sell or buy any foreign registered vehicle that has entered Argentina on a Temporary Vehicle Import Permit
Given that the other two statements above are wrong, I am disinclined to believe this as well. A google search did not reveal any such "investigation" although it was conducted in English. The few documents I found regarding temporary import of used vehicles into Argentina did not mention any prohibition on sale. I know nothing about Argentine law, but in other countries, vehicles with a temporary import cannot be sold to local citizens, because that would deprive the state of customs duty, but can be sold to other foreigners, also subject to the temporary import regime.

In conclustion, you might be right about what is allowed under Argentine law, but you are confused about other important issues that you raise and therefore raise doubts...
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 3 Jan 2010
Gold Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 655
The Proof you asked for and the law re: TVIP

motoreiter, Here is the proof you asked for: In order to be a "certified notary public" or a "notary" as required to witness, sign and seal or stamp the back of a title, the notary is restricted to notarizing in the *"county" or in the "county" or "State" of certification. This is a very basic legal question that even WiKi Answers addresses.

*"county" (in the U.S.) a political and administrative division of a state, providing certain local governmental services.

A New York notary license stops at the border. It might be that a notary, from another State, who witnesses the signatures of buyer and seller in another State, where the notary is certified, would be acceptable.

To be certified to notarize the signatures of the seller and the buyer, the notary must be doing the witnessing while seller, buyer and notary are physically in the county/state where the notary is certified.

If foreign tourist seller of a bike registered in one State of the United States, and the foreign tourist buyer are in a foreign country, logic dictates that neither are in a county or State where the notary is certified.

I am sure each State has a legal definition of the term "notary" and I am also sure that any notary certified in any State may not perform the services of notary outside of the county or State where the notary is certified. I hope this answers your question regarding what is meant by being certified by the State.

I understand the responsibilities of a notary, and please stop claiming that I have stated anything different, I did not. Please indicate where I have discussed the duties of a notary, I have not. Are you so desperate to make a point that you have to "fake" my words?

Here is what I said:

"And, the notary must be certified by the State of the United States holding title to the motorcycle, I sincerely doubt that any State will accept an illegal overseas title transfer, and considering the recent title transfer problems on the diplomatic front, you might be at risk by even asking a Notary at the US Embassy to witness the signatures for an the illegal transfer of a foreign registered motorcycle."

No where in the above did I mention the duties and responsibilities of a notary. The risk factor comes from regulations put in place, for all diplomatic personal and I assume here, any notary at any US embassy would be restrained by these regulations, regarding the illegal transfer of title of a foreign registered vehicle.

It is not by chance that no US diplomats were charged and arrested during the recent sting operation, (Buenos Aires) related to the illegal title transfer of vehicles that entered Argentina on a Temporary Vehicle Import Permit... by Federal Police here. The reason, aside from the ethics and moral code of some US diplomats, are the regulations that have been imposed regarding title transfer of foreign registered vehicles - this is to what I was referring, not the responsibilities of a notary.

Do you really believe I did not know that US notary, verifies identities and witnesses signatures. Are you joking?

Neither one of my statements were wrong, but you are wrong about the Temporary Vehicle Import Permit. Here is the law for Colombia and for Argentina and for every other South American country:

For your information, all South American countries have agreed, by convention, that foreign registered vehicles (USA, UK, Australia, germany) cannot be bought or sold in country, without paying import taxes and first having the vehicle registered in country...

Here is an accurate translation for you, or have the actual law translated yourself.

The foreign tourist who wants to tour Colombia on a motorcycle, registered abroad (Canada, USA, EU, Australia etc) must be the legal owner of the motorcycle when she/he enters Colombia and then she/he (the same foreign tourist owner) must ride out of Colombia within 6 months or whatever time is allowed on the Colombian issued TVIP.

The owner that enters the bike is required to be the owner that exits the bike. Thus, no sale in country.

ESTATUTO ADUANERO DE COLOMBIA
ACTUALIZADO AL 31 DE OCTUBRE DE 2004

MINISTERIO DE HACIENDA Y CREDITO PUBLICO

DECRETO No. 2685

(28 de Diciembre de 1999)
Por el cual se modifica la legislación aduanera.

EL PRESIDENTE DE LA REPÚBLICA DE COLOMBIA,

en uso de las facultades que le confiere el numeral 25 del artículo 189 de la Constitución Política, con sujeción a los artículos 3º de la Ley 6ª de 1971 y 2º de la Ley 7ª de 1991, oído el Consejo Superior de Comercio Exterior, y
CONSIDERANDO:
Que el Gono Nacional está comprometido con las políticas que permitan fortalecer la inserción de la economía colombiana en los mercados internacionales, facilitando y agilizando las operaciones de comercio exterior;
Que con el propósito de brindar transparencia, claridad y certeza a los usuarios del comercio exterior, las operaciones aduaneras deben armonizarse y simplificarse a través de una legislación que las recoja en su integridad y consulte las tendencias legislativas internacionales;

Que para el efecto y en cumplimiento de nuestra Carta Política, en la elaboración del presente decreto se atendieron las leyes marco en materia aduanera y de comercio exterior y los convenios internacionales; y se consultó la legislación comparada y las propuestas del sector privado, para garantizar un equilibrio entre el fortalecimiento del control, la fiscalización aduanera y la eficiente prestación del servicio;

Que de acuerdo a los anteriores lineamientos, se introducen las modificaciones al régimen de aduanas, mediante las siguientes disposiciones,


Sección V

Importación Temporal para Reexportación en el mismo estado



ARTÍCULO. 158°. Importación temporal de vehículos de turistas. Los vehículos de turistas (automóviles, camionetas, casas rodantes, motos, motonetas, bicicletas, cabalgaduras, lanchas, naves, aeronaves, dirigibles, cometas) utilizados como medios de transporte de uso privado, serán autorizados en importación temporal, cuando sean conducidos por el turista o lleguen con él.

Los turistas podrán importar temporalmente el vehículo que utilicen como medio de transporte de uso privado, sin necesidad de garantía ni de otro documento aduanero diferente a la tarjeta de ingreso que establezca la Dirección de Impuestos y Aduanas Nacionales, o la libreta o carné de paso por aduana, o el tríptico, o cualquier otro documento internacional reconocido o autorizado en convenios o tratados públicos de los cuales Colombia haga parte. Estos documentos serán numerados, fechados y registrados por la autoridad aduanera. En todos los casos el turista deberá indicar a la aduana de salida del vehículo importado temporalmente.

Los nacionales colombianos, no residentes en el país, al llegar deberán presentar adicionalmente, un certificado de residencia en el exterior expedido o visado por el cónsul colombiano en el país de residencia.

ARTÍCULO. 159°. Requisitos del documento de importación temporal. En el documento aduanero que autorice la Dirección de Impuestos y Aduanas Nacionales para la importación temporal del vehículo deberá indicarse marca, número del motor, año del modelo, color, placa del país de matrícula y demás características que lo individualicen.
ARTÍCULO. 160°. Plazo para la importación temporal de vehículos de turistas. El plazo máximo de importación temporal para los medios de transporte de uso privado, será de seis (6) meses, prorrogables por la autoridad aduanera hasta por otro plazo igual, condicionado al tiempo de permanencia en el territorio aduanero nacional otorgado en la visa al turista.
En caso de accidente comprobado ante la autoridad aduanera, ésta podrá autorizar un plazo especial condicionado por el tiempo que se requiera para la reparación del medio de transporte o para que pueda salir del país en condiciones mínimas de seguridad.

En caso de destrucción o pérdida del vehículo, esta deberá acreditarse ante la autoridad aduanera.

ARTÍCULO. 161°. Aduana de ingreso y de salida. La salida de los vehículos importados temporalmente podrá hacerse por cualquier aduana del país. En caso de que el vehículo salga del país por una aduana diferente a la de ingreso la aduana de salida deberá informar inmediatamente a la de ingreso, para la cancelación de la importación temporal.

Si una vez vencido el término autorizado para la importación temporal del vehículo, no se ha producido su reexportación, procederá su aprehensión y decomiso.

Next, I suppose you will next question the fact that, in the event of a serious accident, South American insurance company will check the title for irregularities. And, if they find an illegal title transfer, they will refuse to provide an attorney to represent the client and they will refuse to pay damages, if the vehicle/bike title is fraudulent.

And, it will be a fraudulent title transfer if it occurs under the circumstances, described in the law above. Illegal TVIPs are an ace in the hole in the event a foreign tourist is involved in a serious accident for which their "client" (their company) might be held libel.

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

Last edited by xfiltrate; 3 Jan 2010 at 05:21.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 3 Jan 2010
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 1,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by xfiltrate View Post
motoreiter, Here is the proof you asked for: In order to be a "certified notary public" or a "notary" as required to witness, sign and seal or stamp the back of a title, the notary is restricted to notarizing in the *"county" or in the "county" or "State" of certification.
**********
To be certified to notarize the signatures of the seller and the buyer, the notary must be doing the witnessing while seller, buyer and notary are physically in the county/state where the notary is certified.

If foreign tourist seller of a bike registered in one State of the United States, and the foreign tourist buyer are in a foreign country, logic dictates that neither are in a county or State where the notary is certified.
You are confused again. Here is what you said originally: "...the notary must be certified by the State of the United States holding title to the motorcycle...", which is completely wrong. In your quote above you are saying something completely different--that US notaries may not notarize documents outside of the jurisdiction which licensed them. This statement is correct, but does not take into account that, as mentioned by a previous poster, US embassies ALWAYS have US notaries who are able to notarize documents for US citizens overseas, presumably on the basis of a federal notary license or law allowing them to do so. Please don't claim that the US notaries in the US embassies around the world are not authorized to notarize documents...

Quote:
Originally Posted by xfiltrate View Post
I understand the responsibilities of a notary, and please stop claiming that I have stated anything different, I did not. Please indicate where I have discussed the duties of a notary, I have not. Are you so desperate to make a point that you have to "fake" my words?

Here is what I said:

"And, the notary must be certified by the State of the United States holding title to the motorcycle, I sincerely doubt that any State will accept an illegal overseas title transfer, and considering the recent title transfer problems on the diplomatic front, you might be at risk by even asking a Notary at the US Embassy to witness the signatures for an the illegal transfer of a foreign registered motorcycle."

No where in the above did I mention the duties and responsibilities of a notary. The risk factor comes from regulations put in place, for all diplomatic personal and I assume here, any notary at any US embassy would be restrained by these regulations, regarding the illegal transfer of title of a foreign registered vehicle.

Do you really believe I did not know that US notary, verifies identities and witnesses signatures. Are you joking?
I did not "fake" any of your words, here is exactly what you said: "Mike51, have you no consideration for that employee of the Consular Section who notarizes documents? By reading this thread, you must know by now that you are putting at risk that person's career, by even asking them to notarize the illegal sale of a US registered vehicle in Argentina." If you sincerely believe that a person working in the US embassy risks ending their career because they legally and properly (under US law) notarized a document, then you do not understand the duties of a notary. As mentioned, there are many completely legitimate reasons why a US citizen overseas might need a title notarized (selling their car to cousin Jimmy back home, etc.), and the notary cannot be, and is not, expected to know or guess what the notarized document will be used for, or whether such use will be lawful. This is true whether the notary happens to be a diplomat or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xfiltrate View Post
Neither one of my statements were wrong, but you are wrong about the Temporary Vehicle Import Permit. Here is the law for Colombia and for Argentina and for every other South American country:
OK, I'll take your word for it; as mentioned, I don't know anything about Argentine or South American law. But frankly the fact that you refuse to admit that you are wrong on the points above give me some doubt on this issue as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xfiltrate View Post
Next, I suppose you will next question the fact that, in the event of a serious accident, South American insurance company will check the title for irregularities. And, if they find an illegal title transfer, they will refuse to provide an attorney to represent the client and they will refuse to pay damages, if the vehicle/bike title is fraudulent.
Actually I didn't say anything about insurance, did I? What you say might be correct, I will have to let an insurance expert respond on this point because I don't know, hopefully someone will chime in.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 3 Jan 2010
Gold Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 655
Notary certification continued...

motoreiter, I am very pleased you have decided to continue the issue of "certification" of a notary.

These points of law are rarely examined, but are legalities that should be understood by those considering the illegal transfer of title of a motorcycle registered in the USA from the foreign tourist owner to the foreign tourist buyer in a South American country.

Perhaps a simple example case will resolve the issue of notary "certification."

"..the notary must be certified by the State of the United States holding title to the motorcycle... " is a true statement, even taken out of context,

To clarify, one must understand two distinct issues. Let's avoid the "he said," "she said" cross examination and look to governing law.

First, There is the actual "certification process" in which a State or county (see definition in earlier post) of the United States, certifies a person to be a notary public.

Second, There is the "work" of a *certified notary, *as described above (in this case the "work" of identification of buyer and seller and witness to their signatures with placement of seal etc)

This "work" of a certified notary public is commonly, but not always, accepted by all other States and counties of the United States. Although the vast majority of certified notary publics are only certified to do "work" in the county or State by whose authority, they are "certified."

O K? I hope I have explained the "certification" issue, and if not I will be happy to delve more deeply into the issue of "certification."

So you now understand the two distinct issues involved when a Department of Motor Vehicles, Department of Transportation demands a "certified notary" also sign and seal the signatures of the seller and buyer on the reverse of a motor vehicle title.

By the way, many of the States in the United States are demanding the seller return the license plate of the motor vehicle and that the buyer present identification and residence information before a new license plate is issued.

Thank you for agreeing that my statement is correct regarding the fact that the "work" of a "certified notary" is dependent upon the "certified notary" being physical located within the boundary of the county or State that has authorized the person to serve as a "certified notary public."

Regarding your statement:

"Please don't claim that the US notaries in the US embassies around the world are not authorized to notarize documents..."

I have not made this claim.

Now on to the Diplomatic Front.

Once again let's look at governing law and in this case the "in house" regulations governing the behavior of US Diplomats and Embassy Staff.

All Diplomats and Staff are pledged to uphold the Constitution and laws of the United States. Diplomats and Embassy Staff serving overseas are also held to a higher standard that includes the laws, in place, in the countries (Argentina for example ) where they are assigned.

"OK, I'll take your word for it; as mentioned, I don't know anything about Argentine or South American law. But frankly the fact that you refuse to admit that you are wrong on the points above give me some doubt on this issue as well".


Thank you for agreeing with the Colombian Temporary Motor Vehicle Import Permit (TVIP) and being so forthright about your lack of information regarding Temporary Vehicle Import Permit law.

It is not my words I am asking you to agree with, Argentina and all other South American countries have the same TVIP law in place.

Therefore, you must also understand that any US Diplomat or any US Embassy Staff, (Argentina) involved in any illegal activity, such as the illegal transfer of title of a USA registered motorcycle from one foreign tourist to another foreign tourist, might be call to testify by the prosecution, in a criminal case brought by Argentina, against the two foreign tourists for violating in place TVIP law.

It matters little that the Embassy notary public was legally performing within the limits of the responsibilities of a notary public. But, and I say this with great confidence, being hauled into an Argentine court as a witness to a crime, is not something the Ambassador expects of the diplomats and Staff that run his Embassy. Whoever notarized that illegal title transfer might next be assigned to another Embassy not as safe or enjoyable as our Embassy in Argentina.

This is what I meant by putting the Embassy notary public at risk.


Thank you for your continued interest, and thank you for being honest and forthright regarding the issue of insurance. No you have not mentioned this very important consideration of illegal title transfer of USA registered motorcycle titles from one foreign tourist to another foreign tourist in Argentina.

"Actually I didn't say anything about insurance, did I? What you say might be correct, I will have to let an insurance expert respond on this point because I don't know, hopefully someone will chime in."


Yes, perhaps it might be appropriate for you to talk with an experienced attorney specializing in motor vehicle accidents in South America.

Within my assigned duties with the Red Cross in Mexico, (at request of the Mother of the foreign tourist) I have witnessed first hand what happens to a foreign tourist involved in an accident resulting in the death of a Mexican.

This is my motivation for our continued discussion. The foreign tourist bought insurance in Mexico, but the insurance was deemed invalid because the ownership of the vehicle could not be determined by the court. The insurance company withdrew all support and asked for charges against the foreign tourist for fraudulently buying vehicle insurance for a vehicle he did not legally own. In this case the foreign tourist was sentenced to 5 years in a Mexican jail (this in addition to the 3 years he had already spent in Mexican jails waiting for appearance before a judge) with no possibility of early release, and the victims family was awarded $50,000 USD.

He was also charged with illegal importation of a motor vehicle into Mexico (theft even though he paid cash for the vehicle) and in the final analysis, when the insurance company was released from all liability the judge considered that punishment enough, his 8 years in jail and the fact that the Mother of the foreign tourist paid the awarded $50.000 USD to the victims family) regarding the illegal purchase of insurance and did not add an additional sentence, which could have been substantial.

A note of interest here. YESTERDAY one of the competitors in the Dakar Rally ran over and KILLED an Argentine woman and injured 4 other Argentines. There were tens of thousands lining the streets for the Podium "start" of the rally. I rode out ahead of the Dakar and will post a followup on this thread.


Woman killed by 4x4 Desert Warrior truck while watching Dakar Rally in Argentina (video)

The interest in the Dakar Rally is over the top, and as I rode out, on my fully loaded Honda NX400, the streets of the smallest pueblo en route were lined with admirers. The streets of the towns and cities were reduced to a small river like path by the multitudes of spectators... Many high fived me and many hugged me and many jumped out in front of me. Many watching through the lens of a camera were standing in harms way.

It was absolute chaos in Colon, the official start... I had no choice but to bask in the stolen glory. Did I mention how beautiful Argentine woman are???

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

www.Xfiltrate.com - Professional Motorcycle Parking - Professional Motorcycle Parking Buenos Aires, Argentina

Last edited by xfiltrate; 3 Jan 2010 at 17:56.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 4 Jan 2010
BCK_973's Avatar
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Buenos Aires,City of good sex,mate and asado!
Posts: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad View Post
Hello,
I am an american citizen in Argentina looking to buy a bike here. Would like some info about how to buy and register a US registered bike from other travelers.
How long would I be able to ride around Argentina with it? Would I be able to travel to the surounding cuntries? Is this my best option or would it be better to buy a bike in Chille?
Thank you for the help and happy riding.
Vlad
Hi Vlad
Yes its posible,for instance if you buy trvelling Storms bike,cross both into uruguay(he rides it out),drive back next day(you riding this time the bike) into argentina and get a new set of temporary import papers on your name!In the meantime do new ownership papers in the us and get them send by post to you.
Done to many times and worked 100%.With sit import ride in and out as many times you like,renewing it each time of course.

Good luck.
__________________
http://vientoderipio.blogspot.com/
America is a nice continent,not a country.All people who lives in this continent are americans.Discover it in peace!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 4 Jan 2010
Gold Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 655
Important data for all sellers and buyers of USA registered bikes in South America

BCK_973

I respectfully request that you, and anyone wanting to buy a USA registered motorcycle in South America read the thread in the South and Central America and Mexico forum entitled:

Information wanted from experienced bikers in South America ( 1 2 3)

There you will find representative regulations of Motor Vehicle Departments in various of the 50 States of the United States that would make what you suggest as "done many times and works 100%) LEGALLY IMPOSSIBLE!

In addition you will find in spanish the the actual Temporary Vehicle Import Permit (TVIP) law for Colombia which is the basically the same for all other South American countries. This specifically states that what you are suggesting is a crime.

I want you to describe exactly the documentation submitted to the aduana (customs) of Argentina that would enable the buyer to "get a new set of temporary import papers on your name (buyer)" Argentina law states that only the legal owner of the motorcycle may temporarily import the motorcycle. How does the buyer become the legal owner?

If you are suggesting illegally altering the title, I hereby appeal to your good judgement, to cease and desist encouraging those who rely on the HUBB to break USA and South American law.
Of course if you do the research of each of the 50 United States and come up with one - just one- that does not have a legal barrier to what you suggest and then you are able to explain how LEGALLY the legal owner exits Argentina, a country that prohibits the sale of motorcycles entered on TVIP, and the potential buyer (not the legal owner, mysteriously becomes the legal owner) and enters a bordering country Uruguay that also prohibits the sale of motorcycles entered on a TVIP, I will reconsider the issue.

What you have suggested cannot be done legally, so please stop suggesting it. Thank you!

Here is the Temporary Vehicle Import Permit law for Uruguay:

Import of an used car under temporary
admission:
• Proof of quality of “non resident” or “
transitory resident” (through the
migration office in Montevideo).
• Proof of vehicle’s property in the name of
the owner, through registration
document at country of origin with a
validity of at least six months prior to
arrival in Uruguay.

*Temporary import of the car will not exceed a
maximum term of 18 months (to be
considered from the exact date of import)
before which vehicle will have to be re-
exported by the legal owner.

A bank guarantee may be required in order to
authorize the vehicle’s temporary admission,
and this will be returned at time of re-export.

Please note that to legally enter a foreign registered motorcycle into Uruguay the owner must have owned the motorcycle for at least 6 months.

OK, no sales of foreign registered vehicles in either Uruguay or Argentina, so where exactly does the seller sell his TVIP registered motorcycle?

Remember any illegal title transfer null and voids any responsibility of your insurance company to bail you out of jail, provide you an attorney or pay your damages in the event of an accident involving substantial property damage, personal injury or death.

Standing by for your response, as I am sure, are many others.

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

Last edited by xfiltrate; 4 Jan 2010 at 03:00. Reason: no betting allowed
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 4 Jan 2010
Registered Users
HUBB regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: london
Posts: 39
2006 Klr For Sale In Ba

HI Everyone,

After a fantastic 12 months riding from the US to Ushuia it´s time to let the girl go. I will be in BA in the next week or so looking to sell my KLR. It has all the extras - boxes, crash bars, tank bags etc etc - and it hasent given me a single problem in 35000k´s.

If your looking for an unbreakable machine for your SA dream, this girl´s for you.

Take Care

Dylan
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 4 Jan 2010
Contributing Member
HUBB regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Dublin, IRELAND
Posts: 91
Hi Xfiltrate,

Thanks for your advice, it is very illuminating. Whilst the legal debate is interesting, from a traveller' point of view it sounds like, don't buy a foreign bike in South America is the practical approach.

I was surprised by your comment that one has to have leagally owned the bike for six months prior to entering Uraguay. Is this as a tourist or as a resident? There is a similar rule in Ireland about returning with a UK bike but it applies to residents relocating. It strikes me as odd that a tourist has to have a machine at least six months old. What about somebody buying a new machine for a trip? Or in my case, I am planning on buying a machine in Canada and travelling down to SA but I don't expect it to take 6 months.

If this restriction does apply to tourists then I would have to skip Uraguay altogether. Are there other SA countries with a similar restriction?

Cheers
W!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 Registered Users and/or Members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Selling US registered bike in Argentina/Chile? Bazmataz South America 16 18 Aug 2009 18:00
Foreigners buying a indian registered bike? Possible? Carnet? kw_bike Trip Paperwork 2 18 Jul 2008 09:11
Buying a motor bike in Argentina Joel Pedro Trip Paperwork 1 13 Nov 2004 01:46
Selling USA-registered bike in Argentina Erling Trip Paperwork 2 16 Oct 2001 08:40
Buying a bike in Argentina mikewith South America 2 23 Sep 2001 09:43

 
 


HU DVD Summer Special!

Now that summer is here, get On the Road! Take 30% off the Achievable Dream - On the Road! 2-DVD set until August 31 only. Get On the Road! Learn the tips to staying healthy, happy and secure on your motorcycle adventure!

Our veteran travellers share their tips (and great stories) for staying healthy, happy and secure on your motorcycle adventure.

"A fantastic, informative and inspirational DVD."

"It's brilliant - thank you very much!"

Check it out at the HU Store! Remember to use Coupon Code 'ONTHEROAD' on your order when you checkout.


Renedian Adventures

What others say about HU...

"I just wanted to say thanks for doing this and sharing so much with the rest of us." Dave, USA

"Your website is a mecca of valuable information and the DVD series is informative, entertaining, and inspiring! The new look of the website is very impressive, updated and catchy. Thank you so very much!" Jennifer, Canada

"...Great site. Keep up the good work." Murray and Carmen, Australia

"We just finished a 7 month 22,000+ mile scouting trip from Alaska to the bottom of Chile and I can't tell you how many times we referred to your site for help. From how to adjust your valves, to where to stay in the back country of Peru. Horizons Unlimited was a key player in our success. Motorcycle enthusiasts from around the world are in debt to your services." Alaska Riders

contest pic

10th Annual HU Travellers Photo Contest is on now! This is an opportunity for YOU to show us your best photos and win prizes!

NEW! HU 2014 Adventure Travel T-shirts! are now available in several colors! Be the first kid on your block to have them! New lower prices on synths!

HU 2014 T-shirts now in!

Check out the new Gildan Performance cotton-feel t-shirt - 100% poly, feels like soft cotton!


What turns you on to motorcycle travel?


Global Rescue, WORLDwide evacuation services for EVERYONE

Global Rescue is the premier provider of medical, security and evacuation services worldwide and is the only company that will come to you, wherever you are, and evacuate you to your home hospital of choice. Additionally, Global Rescue places no restrictions on country of citizenship - all nationalities are eligible to sign-up!


New to Horizons Unlimited?

New to motorcycle travelling? New to the HU site? Confused? Too many options? It's really very simple - just 4 easy steps!

Horizons Unlimited was founded in 1997 by Grant and Susan Johnson following their journey around the world on a BMW R80 G/S motorcycle.

Susan and Grant Johnson Read more about Grant & Susan's story

Membership - help keep us going!

Horizons Unlimited is not a big multi-national company, just two people who love motorcycle travel and have grown what started as a hobby in 1997 into a full time job (usually 8-10 hours per day and 7 days a week) and a labour of love. To keep it going and a roof over our heads, we run events (22 this year!); we sell inspirational and informative DVDs; we have a few selected advertisers; and we make a small amount from memberships.

You don't have to be a Member to come to an HU meeting, access the website, the HUBB or to receive the e-zine. What you get for your membership contribution is our sincere gratitude, good karma and knowing that you're helping to keep the motorcycle travel dream alive. Contributing Members and Gold Members do get additional features on the HUBB. Here's a list of all the Member benefits on the HUBB.


Books & DVDs

amazon

All the best travel books and videos listed and often reviewed on HU's famous Books page. Check it out and get great travel books from all over the world.


Motorcycle Express for shipping and insurance!

Motorcycle Express

MC Air Shipping, (uncrated) USA / Canada / Europe and other areas. Be sure to say "Horizons Unlimited" to get your $25 discount on Shipping!
Insurance - see: For foreigners traveling in US and Canada and for Americans and Canadians traveling in other countries, then mail it to MC Express and get your HU $15 discount!




All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:44.