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Originally Posted by motoreiter I have a completely different view. First, most of the publishing industry is being crushed by forces unleashed the internet. Newspapers closing, magazines going out of business or moving to online-only (ie, no print) versions. Many of them don't pay more because they can't. Like it or not, it is simply a fact of life.

I agree, never said anything about this.I am not a writer I am a boffin, I simply saw parallels and can see where it could go. We boffins have little choice, if we dont publish we dont get grants, no grants, No job, no publications... around and around.. if we have to pay we have to pay.. the rest of the world has not hit this yet...

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Originally Posted by motoreiter Second, if there were a magazine that I thought highly of, I would gladly spend some time to create and contribute an article/photos to share with other readers, even if unpaid--I don't see how this is different from contributing posts here, or ride reports to somewhere like ADVRider.com. On the other hand, I wouldn't do so just for the "15 seconds of fame" if I didn't think much of the magazine.

The difference between "publishing your "articles" to the HUBB or ADV or your blog, they dont charge to read em. so it is free for free. I dont know about ADV: But Grant barely makes ends meet on the HUBB he makes his living from the meets, paid talks and DVDs.

FREE for FREE is fine by me and I do it. It is wrong when it is a free article for the publisher who then charge someone else to read it and thereby making money from my work without fair compensation.


Your words and pics are a commodity, a product. You would not give your engine to some one so they could make money from it and not give you a cent would you? There is no difference.

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Originally Posted by motoreiter I'm not standing up for my value because this isn't my job, its hobby, so doesn't have any real value to me.

..I never said that £150 is good or bad. just dont give your product a way for free to someone who sells it... I also never said dont send this guy a story.. only dont do it for free. Always remember publishers are making money out of you (both as the writer and a punter).

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Originally Posted by motoreiter Third, you say that if authors have to pay to publish there will be much less interesting material published. In fact, it is now easier and cheaper than ever for authors to print and distribute their own materials (either via "print on demand" or digitally), cutting out publishers altogether. In a niche market like motorcycle adventure travel, I think we should expect to see much more (self) published, rather than less, as I think that very few authors (including Chris) currently have a chance of convincing publishers to print their works; if people can self-publish it will give an opportunity to a much broader circle of potential authors, even though the resulting quality will be uneven.

Actually i never said this either. Only that if publishing was a pay-to-publish service only (where one would never see any returns) many authors will not bother. It is thier job and they live on the associated income. It is us (readers) who will lose the end. Self publishing is again a different story, you still own the rights and you could make money if you sell it. If you give your article to a magazine they (most often) retain copy-write and you can never make anything from it ever again.



Simple proof:

Chris Scott question: The next version of AMH; If you had to do it for free (e.g: never making any money) would you do it?

Our own Sam M. self published his first book (maybe more i dont know), and I think it was great and loved reading it, but he did sell them which means he got the money back and made some money (hopefully). HE DID NOT PUBLISH FOR FREE. He invested in himself. Massive difference to giving away your product. Print on demand and self publishing are not the same thing as giving your products away so someone else can make money.


If an professional author does not get paid or paid enough.. they get an other job that is all they can do.

The really funny thing is that this entire argument for me is completely academic as my oppion of bike mags is so low that even a 4-5 page spread of perfectly written and shot travel story is still not worth the cover price..So professional or £150 Joe's ride report.. I am still not going to buy the magazines.


Would I sell my story for £150? sure it is more then i have ever gotten for many published boffin papers. Will I send it to anyone that offers me more then that first? yup. Will I take out any photos that I think are worth more (I have been paid alot more for a single photo) before I send it to a lower ranking journal (as we call it in the boffin world)? yup.



My biggest point was i have seen this slope before and it goes only in one direction. The TWO guy was offering to pay (enough or not is up to you), I was simply saying dont sell out for less then you are worth and dont let any one make money off your back..PROTECT YOURSELVES, Dont let anyone take advantage of you.

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Fair play to you if you can earn a good living from something you enjoy doing. I'd be interested if you did some write ups on your own bike travels. I think it was Superbike that used to have section of the mag devoted to the staff's own bikes which was more interesting than it sounds and good to see you lot having the same real world problems with bikes as the rest of us. I'd like to see the mags returning to running features like the YouTube link below but the way they seem to be under the thumb of their advertisers, that's not going to happen.

YouTube - MCN: Can a £1500 sportsbike beat a GSX-R1000 K6?

I'd buy a copy, maybe even subscribe. I bet Suzuki's PR staff were seriously p***ed off at the time.

Main problem with the mags is that they seem to have turned into little more than a marketing tool for manufacturers and there's nothing that any one of them does that makes it stand out from the others. New bike launched = all the mags run more or less the same feature. Is it any wonder that they're losing out to the internet?

I haven't bought a mag for months now but I did buy BIKE last week, to take to a mate in hospital. Unfortunately, his Dad had already bought him the same mag and all he said was, "There's not much in it really". To fill 160+ pages with "not much" takes some doing, especially if you're selling it for £3.99! Most interesting article in there was the trip to Italy in winter on a Ducati Monster. The pseudo-tech article on the cross-plane crank R1 was disappointing.

I thought this thread had legs, and it's a better read than some magazines

Although the TWO guy may personally have a great background, I stick to my original point that nothing in his professional approach is likely to make me want to fork out 4 or 5 quid for a magazine.

There are some great stories here and on Advrider (in fact 18,771 reports on Advrider) and nothing about asking around, offering 150 notes to people inspires me that the mag are likely to produce anything better.

I think that we buy more services nowadays then we ever have done – I think this is also valid for entertainment.

Yes, publishing has to change, it has to better – not worse.

Writing is more then grammar and spell-checking. But as it looks right now you are completely right that the amateurs will outlive the professionals. Is this the way we want it to be?

I don’t know MCN.
No the net is not free, and there are a few negative aspects if you only read web-based articles.

I have to agree with those who say that bike mags are poor value for money. I've given up buying them for this reason.

I know it must be difficult/impossible to please the whole variety of biking interests, but I've often found that the bit of the mag which interested me was not worth paying for if I had to buy loads of stuff about sports bikes and rampant consumerism. I got fed up with cliche laden writing like "grin factor", "loads of grunt", and also comparative bike tests which use a lot of words yet avoid saying anything which will annoy a manufacturer. The internet and sites like HU provide me with what I want ,for it's not market driven and is all about real people, real lives. I don't really know the US bike mag area, but Melissa Holbrook Pearson (that very fine writer) said that the least of UK bike mags was better than most US publications.

There is a German mag I wish I could read - "Touren Fahren" - but without that language I can't. There was that British bike travel mag which went under, perhaps because "Adventure Biking" is such a small niche in the UK - which has the smallest bike owning population in Western Europe. This might explain why bike mags offer so little for stories - the market just isnt there for more.

I think it's a good thing if some magazines don't survive, because they are market driven, and not customer driven.

they are market driven, and not customer driven...

In that case the sad old Brits can't get enough wet fish.
When I first saw the range of carp porn (below) in a local newsagent I thought it was some sort of joke.

That German TF mag is worth it just for the pix and maps. What a shame an English-language version can't be sustained.

I used to love US Dirt Bike and UK Bike in the early 80s and learned so much from them. Even MCN was good. Now there's nothing much in any of them for me and it's not all due to internet, probably getting older and knowing what you like.
I think the mags today are trying every trick in the book but times have changed.

Chris Scott question: The next version of AMH; If you had to do it for free (e.g: never making any money) would you do it?

You may think I am joking but effectively I don't - and yes I still will. I like the work but I make my bread and butter in Sahara and odd jobs. I suspect the big trip I'm doing for the next AMH will cost more than I ever make from that edition, but will be great for the book, may spin off other things and will be a brilliant adventure.

Ch

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We all have a story and we have all told them for far less than you are offering. But you are asking to under cut the pros that make there living doing what you are asking. Read this it is about photos and is all about what you want.

Photo Business News & Forum: Professional Photographers vs. "Hobby" Status (i.e. Working for Free)


Mr. Scott is a pro e-mail him for a price on a story of his last trip.

My last little trip was $3,000 US. You are asking me to hand over the rights to copyrighted photos and text and reimbursing me only 10%.

Most Mags I have read I cant seen any difference from one to another any way.
The people I want to read about no one wants to wright about. The man on a 50cc bike riding the world. The people that ran a HD bagger around the wold. The kid that got on a bike and went to South America with $5,000 and a bag on the back. You want them to sell there story your going need more than $300.
You want stories that will make your rag THE riders mag you need to do a bit more than slap down the cash.
You may want to go to a Horizons Unlimited meeting and talk to some of the people face to face. See the man with more RTW on TWO wheels than any one else, hear the man that Drams of Jupiter talk to HD riders that have been to more places than most travel mags know.

As for you being you being a "real rider" I have no idea one way or the other. Real adventure? like what? I ride 10k to 20k a year on little trips most just to ride most on road most to places people have gone. To someone in the UK there real adventures to me its gust down the road. Ride in the UK to Spain now that is a real adventure... to me.
Your kit shinny and a clean bike is nothing I have washed my bike once a year and I clean my kit just as much as I need to. So we are even there. I have even seen a real world traveler we all know ride a bike shinny and new. So I dont know what you having one has to with you getting a story or not.

By the way if you look at the left in the tab "Events" click on "meetings" send in the money and go to one. UK Spring, 18-21 June 2009. Ripley is open and always good. You will get some stories photos and more contacts than this post will get you. But do it soon it will fill up.
Its not that we dont want to help you and some may even do a story or two for you. We are gust a bit off and like to poke at people now and then.

The most depressing thing about all this is that this is the RIDE REPORT forum and the only reason most of you have come here is too harp on about how you dislike magazines.
Instead of pissing and moaning about magazines why don,t you all show what you,re capable of by writing a report and posting some pics.
And before you start on me.My report will be on it,s way,but between opening a new pub aand getting a Rally together in Cartagena I find myself a bit busy!!!
Al thebarkingspider
Ps Mods move this whingefest to the bar.

Jesus - I agree with Albert, must be time to leave the country!

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Land's End to Sydney 2009

Yawn. Booooorrrrrrriiinnnnng.

This above raises another issue related to publishing and money: I get the strong impression that many people imagine that writing is the way to fame and fortune. Well, there might be a little fame, but dosh? - I doubt it. Some time back I contributed to a Literary Critical journal - not for the little money, but to establish myself as one who could usefully write for peers. I also enjoyed it, and it sharpened me up in my field, knowing who the audience was. I think Xander did the same in his area.

Even if a book is published, the writer might care to check the number of hours against the payment, and work out the hourly rate. For most people except the J. K. Rowlings of this world and the journos of mainstream newspapers, the money isn't there. So CS's view, IMO, is the right one in a niche biking market; a book, maybe an article, is part of a whole, and not an end in itself (to say nothing of the off-road groupie "benefits in kind").

In an ideal world, money wouldn't enter into the writing debate at all; ideally we would write because we had something to say, which CS competently does. But we live in a cheapened society where money is usually the prime factor of motivation; we are all trapped in it to some degree, and one result is the financial chaos which we are all paying for - don't ever doubt it. Adam Smith and Karl Marx warned about this, a long time ago.

And no, this isn't off topic - it's at the heart of the issue.

PS I hear that one of those above-mentioned fishing magazines (Total Carp) is popular in Colombia, amazingly enough.

Content of post deleted. No useful content. Albert: if you have something productive to add, feel free. Don't try to start another trolling session.
Chris, your friendly Mod (actually when I was a lad, I thought I was a Rocker)

After trying my hand at bike mag article writing (7 articles published in Motorcycle Sport and Leisure in the early 2000s) and one each in a Canadian and South African mag, all of which I was paid for, I decided not to bother any more. Putting it on a website costs me a lot of time and effort (that I give for free. The monetary cost is only 28 quid a year to host the site) and people can visit it for free. I have total editorial control and have a lot less grief.

The main reason for not submitting anymore to bike mags is: They now (usually) expect stuff for free (if they can charge money, why should I give them free content?) and particularly the sour taste left from my dealings with Motorcycle Sh*t and W*nk, then edited by Peter Henshaw and published by Dennis Hill: I had to chase them from ars*hole to breakfast time to ever get paid and to crown it all, they lost 60 of my best pictures (In the days before digital. My fault, I assumed they were well run...)

After the first time, the warm and moist feeling you get, seeing yourself in print, soon wears off. For warmness and moistness I can suggest top shelf mags.

I do read bike mags, but only ones I subscribe to: The UK's "TBM" (a genuinely well written publication, riding trail bikes helps in order to find it interesting) and the German "Motorrad Abenteuer" (= Motorcycle Adventure, published by the same outfit that does "Tourenfahrer"; speaking/reading German clearly helps here... for both? )

I liked the rant by Harlan Ellison on the YouTube video.

Off to buy Total Cod
Chris

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CURRENT RR WITH REGULAR UPDATES: The Wife Takes on Chlamydia: A South American Retrospective

Drifting away from mags but the same would hold true if such a thing as a well written bike magazine existed..

Anybody read Simon Gandolfi's book? Or Ted Simon's?

They are very good writers who ride bikes quite badly, rather than very good bikers who write books quite badly.

And I'm very happy to pay good money for good writing.

--Mike

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Very nice blog Mike.