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  #46  
Old 11 Jan 2011
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Fitted to my bike and been very reliable - the converted nippondenso starter motor weighs in at almost half of the bosch, draws 80 amps instead of bosch 120 amp has glued in magnets on high torque planetry gears and was originally built for toyota trucksand has proven reliability as well as being suitable for higher compresion engines, spare availability should be descent being japanese truck internals - the starter motor is available from various sources in the uk.
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  #47  
Old 11 Jan 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc lindberg View Post
Seems as if I am just about the only one who prefers the Valeo over the Bosch...
...Current needed to activate startermotors:
Bosch 320A
Valeo 15A

Since weight is an issue in this overhaul/renovation, one should also look at the difference in pounds between theses startermotors.
The Valeo is far lighter than the Bosch, about 1/2-1/3 if I remember correctly.
Hi DC,

The Bosch is 120 amp I think... the Valeo must draw more than 15 amp.
I bought a Nippondenso Toyota starter for mine... fit and forget.
The ND starter draws 80amp and weighs about 3kg.

Cheers,
John
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  #48  
Old 11 Jan 2011
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Hi John,

Nop.

The Bosch startermotor is 320A.
Valeo is 15A.
All you need to do is to read the lable that is stuck to the startermotor.

If you still do not belive the data - just measure the reistance.

This data is also readilly available in the BMW (factory/original) Workshop Manual.
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  #49  
Old 11 Jan 2011
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15A is 180W, there is no way you can turn an engine with 180W. 180W equals 0.25HP... It would have been possible to run the starter from your 15 Ah battery for one hour!

The Valeo is 700W (close to 60A) but that's when it's spinning, at startup it's far more. A heavy start can easily be 5 times the rating.
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  #50  
Old 11 Jan 2011
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1/11/11...hee hee. It's all ones!!!

Spent today cleaning the engine with scotch brite pads and cleaner. WOW does that works well








Even shined the dip stick



Onto the questions. Tell me about the Right (looking forward) plug



And the Left plug



This is the brake Pedal.....seems awfully rough for BMW standards....is it aftermarket welded?
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  #51  
Old 12 Jan 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliBaba View Post
15A is 180W, there is no way you can turn an engine with 180W. 180W equals 0.25HP... It would have been possible to run the starter from your 15 Ah battery for one hour!
Quote:
Originally Posted by AliBaba View Post

The Valeo is 700W (close to 60A) but that's when it's spinning, at start-up it's far more. A heavy start can easily be 5 times the rating.
I refer to official data.

Found this on the net - might be of some interest:
http://jhau.maliwi.de/mot/r-elec.html
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/category_s/29.htm
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=3
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/startingprobs.htm
http://www.mekafrance.se/valeo-m-13.html
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/boschvaleostarter.htm
Start & Generator Specialisten: Startmotor / Startmotorer / Startmotorer;BLSHOP-1294675140837=13dq3ge1u0pgq

What I can see is a confusion here between torque (in kW) and electricity demand/consumption/current in A. The Bosch starter excerts 0.5kW in torque, and the Valeo excerts 1.2kW in torque. Bosch uses brute electric force (320A) to achive this, whilst Valeo uses revolutions (15A) to achive it.

It does not matter who is right and wrong here, what matters is that Shadowraven can make an informed and well based choice between these two options, Bosch and Valeo.

There are positive and negative sides of both startermotors. Lets focus on the important differences - what affects reliability on the road.



My experience is that Valeo is as good as Bosch - I know my experience differs with many on this point. The missing grease in the planetary gears may be a (or the) reason why so many Valeos fails; but how does this missing of grease cause the magnets to get unstuck and jam the startermotor??? Is heat the cause?

It is kind of peculiar, since I have used Valeo since 1992 (150-200 000 miles, salt, sleat, summer-winter) - and never had a magnet get unstuck, whilst a friend of mine got about 1000 miles and the his Valeo broke down (he -never- uses Valeos after that incident - he insists on always installing the bosch startermotors ever since) !...
All I ever have had to "repair" is to replace the brushes twice. Why do my Valoes not brake down when others does?... Could the missing lubrication of the planetary gearing be the cause/reason?...


At -25'C and below... the Bosch starter motor will not turn. The Valeo does and quite easily starts the engine. The lowest temp that I have personal experience of, with mineral oil (15W/40), is about -28'C.
So, as for me, the Bosch-startermotor is not an option, but that is merely due to the climate in which I drive.
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  #52  
Old 12 Jan 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc lindberg View Post
There are positive and negative sides of both startermotors. Lets focus on the important differences - what affects reliability on the road.
That makes the Nippondenso unit the winner then

Cheers,
John
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  #53  
Old 12 Jan 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc lindberg View Post
I refer to official data.
According to your links the Valeo is 1.2Kw. If you can get 1.2kw by supplying 180w (12V * 15A) then you have a Perpetuum mobile.
The Valeo is called D6RA-15 but 15 has nothing to do with amperage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dc lindberg View Post
What I can see is a confusion here between torque (in kW) and electricity demand/consumption/current in A. The Bosch starter excerts 0.5kW in torque, and the Valeo excerts 1.2kW in torque. Bosch uses brute electric force (320A) to achive this, whilst Valeo uses revolutions (15A) to achive it.

I'm not sure if I'm confused...
Unlike other motors starter motors are often marked with "power@amp"-figures. Basically this means how much power the starter delivers at a given amperage.

If we compare:
Valeo: 1.2kw@275A
Bosch: 0.7kw@320A

This number indicates that the Valeo draws less current and produces more power then the Valeo. This is good! But it also tells us that 15A is not what we are talking about...
The numbers above doesn't show us exactly how this work because the real numbers are load-dependant. A Bosch-starter will be consume somewhere around 120A under normal conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dc lindberg View Post
It does not matter who is right and wrong here, what matters is that Shadowraven can make an informed and well based choice between these two options, Bosch and Valeo.
He has a Bosch and can probably use it. It might be worth to clean and lube it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dc lindberg View Post
There are positive and negative sides of both startermotors. Lets focus on the important differences - what affects reliability on the road.
When it comes to reliability I would recommend the Bosch because I've killed two Valeos (in one week). Valeo with a house modified to keep the magnets in place will also be a good option but I don't see any reason to change it unless he want to start the engine in subzero °c or rise compression.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dc lindberg View Post
My experience is that Valeo is as good as Bosch - I know my experience differs with many on this point. The missing grease in the planetary gears may be a (or the) reason why so many Valeos fails; but how does this missing of grease cause the magnets to get unstuck and jam the startermotor??? Is heat the cause?
I would guess heat and age. Glue doesn't last forever.



Quote:
Originally Posted by dc lindberg View Post
All I ever have had to "repair" is to replace the brushes twice. Why do my Valoes not brake down when others does?... Could the missing lubrication of the planetary gearing be the cause/reason?...
My first one lasted 180kkm, the next one 30kkm, they both had the same age. When you use glue to attach something it can work for a long time, or not...

But as Redboots says Nippondenso is the best
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  #54  
Old 12 Jan 2011
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I don't want to dilute this excellent build thread (thanks shadowraven!) even further but the Valeo on my '89 R100GS lasted for 20 years and 185,000 km before I decided to prep the bike for RTW. I replaced the Valeo with the Nippondenso from Rick at Motorrad Elektrik.

Last Fall I picked up my Dad's '84 R100RT. It has always been a tough bike to start because the starter motor doesn't turn the bike over very quickly (and for all I know may be taking a bunch of the electrons away from the spark plugs). I picked up the Valeo that has been sitting on a shelf for the last three years and plugged it into the bike, replacing the heavy Bosch. Bike starts like a charm now.

Just one data point...
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  #55  
Old 12 Jan 2011
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Hey Ekke,
Heck don't worry about dilution It's all good discussion. I like to read the pros and cons of each. Next year I will probably get the nippo one but for now I'm going to refresh the Bosch. It turns fine and the bike fires right up. I also have a kicker and can get her going that way too

Now to a point; Points actually. Has anyone gone from the IE to points? Seems like a good thing to do? Spares can be had anywhere as VW points fit. I am leaning this way, any comments?
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  #56  
Old 12 Jan 2011
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There is another thread here on H.U. that addressed hallsensor vs braker-points.

I did get the impression that it is a safe option, and that it is VW 1200 (buggy) points that will fit?

My Suzuki GS 850GN ran far smoother with electronic ignition, but had far more power using braker-points. (Guess that is more to do with my mechanical skills at the time though... )

The electronic ignition is quite reliable, but when the hallsensor fails one is stuck... and a replacement ITU is rather costly...
"Trigger assembly and blackbox"
Moto-bins - BMW Spare Parts and Accessories for Motorcycles - Bmw Parts Series 2 valve Twin
Part.no. is neat:
Part No.07912X
I've written a thread on ITU/hallsensor break-down and how to mend/repair the ITU.


And thank you Alibaba for correcting things that I've been taught incorrectly concerning the startermotors. Your comments are most interesting
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  #57  
Old 12 Jan 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowraven View Post
Hey Ekke,
Now to a point; Points actually. Has anyone gone from the IE to points? Seems like a good thing to do? Spares can be had anywhere as VW points fit. I am leaning this way, any comments?
I wouldn't switched to points.
The standard systems works pretty good and it's maintenance-free. Beside a cracked coil my system lasted flawless for more then 220kkm before it got replaced by a q-tech system which is pretty similar.
If you go on an extended trip you can carry the most vital part:


But if you talk to people that have experienced burned parts they might say points are the right solution.

I switched from points to IE on a Land Rover once and the difference was amazing. Easier start, better mileage etc.
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  #58  
Old 12 Jan 2011
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1/12/11

Only did some cleaning today, got the frame good and cleaned up. The starter de-dusted as well as the harness contacts cleaned and greased.


Pulled the ICM too. Not a hint of transfer paste left



The real news however is the 20+ inches of snow that fell......at the shop

and at home
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  #59  
Old 13 Jan 2011
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1/13/11

I dug into my final drive today. and separated the driveshaft from the FD. I was a bit worried about damage and such because I've stil been digging bits of the 2 FD bolts I lost out of the magnetic drain plug. Speaking of which it's a mixed blessing. First off, the plug was fixed by Performance Motorcycle in Albany NY a few years ago, a quick search finds no results. This is not surprising concidering the hack plug repair job they did.....:huh

Not metric


Hole in rough shape


No threads at all inside


It went so far as to actually hit the primary bolt housing, and result in a strip if attempted to torque.

At least I have a nice clean and shiny FD to drop off to my machinist and have timecerted


And the shaft to the Powdercoater
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  #60  
Old 14 Jan 2011
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I love old bikes......

1/14/11

I have a driveshaft removal tool coming from a friend. Dropped off the FD to a tech who used to be a BMW tech back in the 80s. $40 for a time sert, and going over is better than $100 for a kit and then having to destroy it to do a shallow repair

I'll let the photos speak about the big find today.......







So I need a harness.....Suggestions
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