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  #76  
Old 26 Mar 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilesmark View Post
Jenny - is the MoT still current on Dino, by any remote chance? If it is, there is a possible solution.

BruceP - I stand by my advice. Having the MoT prebooked before you get to the UK avoids any issues with arriving at the airport/ferry port and then phoning up your MoT place only to get told "oh, sorry - we're fully booked up today - we can fit you in next week?"

Not sure what the letter of the law says on this, but I would imagine it's better to be able to say to PC Plod, if you are stopped, that the pre-booked MoT you are on your way to is for that day and not x days in the future.
We did this recently on the UKRM news group, you can only be travelling to your MOT that day, and there is no restriction on the MOT shop being nearest the airport/port, if you live in Newcastle and pick up the bike early in the morning at Heathrow, you could conceivably book in for 16:30 and be ok legally.

But, yes, I was only joking about not making the appointment before picking the bike up :-)
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  #77  
Old 27 Mar 2010
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Mark - nice idea but our MOT has expired so no joy there.

One of the garages here suggested that I speak to a "friendly" garage in the UK who would issue a new MOT... oh how nice that would be!!!
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  #78  
Old 28 Mar 2010
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Hi,
We have had to break our trip and return to the UK for various reasons, not least sorting out the DVLA fine for not taxing/sorning or exporting my bike.
Have been on the phone to them and got the standard reply "it should be permanetly exported". I was going to fight this as far as possible but I think I will more than likely end up mucho out of pocket at the end of it. So, my only option it seems is to export, does anyone know what problems I can expect to encounter regarding entering other countries with a homeless bike? US and Canada especially.
Thanks
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  #79  
Old 28 Mar 2010
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Ollie - no, no - read the second 2 paras of my post again.

If you have no MOT, I am suggesting you may be able to satisfy the NSW rules that state the vehicle should be 'legally registered in its country of origin' by relying on the UK definition of 'legally registered' ie revive your DVLA registration by declaring the car reimported to the UK and then immediately SORN it, before taking out NSW insurance.
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  #80  
Old 31 May 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CornishDeity View Post
She was a nice lady and listened to my argument, and said she would double check and ring back. She did and she says that they are 100% sure that this is the way to do it. When we return to the country we just have to contact them to re-inport it.

Not sure if we will pay a price at a later date....
Unfortunately there was plenty of wise advice from TonyP, JMO (& Piglet) as well as others that said the best course of action would be to say nothing to the DVLA and just SORN it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
That is utter nonsense! You are not 'permanently exporting' the vehicle, just using it away from this country for a while... filling in that paperwork is as bad (actually worse) than not filling it in at all?!

Personally I agree with what TonyP suggested in the first page - don't ask the DVLA anything! It's only going to cause you more hassle than you need...

xxx
She is quite right

Quote:
Originally Posted by CornishDeity View Post
Almost 1 year on we're now at the other end of this issue.

BUT this only applies if your vehicle is legally registered in its country of origin.. AH! So now we really are stuck in a catch 22 - we are cannot register the car here as we are under a carnet, but we are not registered at home as we were told to export.... so we are not insured and have no hope of getting any insurance.

I would love for someone to tell me that I'm completely wrong, but I think that might be wishful thinking!

I would also love to find out more about Paul's discussions with the DVLA to see if there's any way to retrospectively solve this problem; more wishful thinking?!

So Paul, if you're there, I know this is not your problem and really nothing to do with your job description, but any new info you have would be very gratefully received!!!

Jenny, aka Mrs. Deity
Sadly you are now paying the price of volunteering information to the nice lady at the DVLA who has now royally shafted you. I think there is a lesson here in not offering information to Bureaucrats. I dare say you also paid for a years worth of UK road fund (Tax) license even though you were not actually on UK roads

Like I said I am not taking delight in your predicament but many will say "I told you so".
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  #81  
Old 8 Sep 2010
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Anybody knows the latest word on carnets in South America?

Hi there,
Can anybody assure me that I don't need a Carnet de Passage in the whole of South America? What's the latest word on that? The Dutch and German automobile-associations ANWB and ADAC still insist I need one.

My bike will arrive by boat in Cartagena around nov.1st. Without a Carnet, should I just step up to the DIAN-office and ask for a temporary import-permit? Can someone help me out. I'm starting to get confused, I read too many different experiences on the internet.

Cheers,
Rob
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  #82  
Old 8 Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roblaan View Post
Hi there,
Can anybody assure me that I don't need a Carnet de Passage in the whole of South America? What's the latest word on that? The Dutch and German automobile-associations ANWB and ADAC still insist I need one.

My bike will arrive by boat in Cartagena around nov.1st. Without a Carnet, should I just step up to the DIAN-office and ask for a temporary import-permit? Can someone help me out. I'm starting to get confused, I read too many different experiences on the internet.

Cheers,
Rob
No requirement for Carnet in all of the Americas.
(REad the trip planning and paperwork page in the menu on the left of the HUBB page if you need evidence for peace of mind).

Good luck
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  #83  
Old 8 Sep 2010
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Carnet / temporary import

Thanks, read that. Just checking because the info on South America in that thread is already almost 2 years old.

If anybody can give me an answer to the second part of my question it will be much appreciated.
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  #84  
Old 4 Oct 2010
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Hi all, i am new to the forum, this is my first post, sorry if i should be in the introduction section?

I came to the site via a google search "Tax and MoT when overseas" so until i find my way around i kept this page open.

I don't have a bike either! but can ride one!

I do have a 4x4 and a Caravan ~ please don't hate me, some of us caravanners DO think bike you know!

so ~ I have read all of this thread ~ gosh, how the DVLA like to play!

I am a brit, drove down from the UK to North Africa in Nov 2009.

hopefully will be starting the trip "Home" in a few weeks.

I also have a toyota celica which is parked up on my daughters driveway and is dutifully SORN'd, my son was using her until he went to france so he SORN'd her before he went.

but my 4x4 ~ tax expired a while ago, Mot expired more recently.

i have JUST this week recived post re routed to me out here, from the DVLA, i have an £80 fine for not sorning or taxing!!!

I have replied to them and am sending the lettr back via a tourist who can then post it in the UK for me, i have enclosed my passport which chearly shows the stamp of my date of entry, and the vehicle reg number written on the entry stamp, and also the words "+ caravan".

I said in the letter i didn't sorn because its not off road in the UK, not taxed as not able to out here, and will be out of the UK a little while longer!

the chances of me being out of the UK under 12 months are looking grim!

but i did state to the DVLA that i don't want permenant export, as within the 12 months i will be in italy. i have given the DVLA a UK address to reply to and asked them to keep the £80 fine until i getback and they decide under what part of the V5 (copy sent to them) they would have liked.

the reason i won't be going directly back to the UK is that i have 2 cats with me and they are effectively "doing quarantine" in italy and france, once that is OK I will return to the UK.

However, within the 12 months of leaving the UK I will enter Italy!

didn't plan to be away so long but things happen ~

I had read that if i get an MoT booked and can show that to customs or police i should be OK to drive, as i still have insurance although invalid as i am not in the UK.

I don't know at the moment if I will stay in italy for a while or head to france, as my son is there it seems logical to head towards him and nearer "home"?

I have to pay tax before I leave here and no doubt that will not the procedure i have been told,

I am hoping that i don't have an issue in italy, about the expired tax and now MoT,

as I have read through this thread ~ I don't seem to quite fit in any of the categories ~ my husband will be travelling with me, he is a visa national, but will be travelling with an EU family visa, for him to enter the UK he will need an EU country's residence card, which he can only get if i become a resident which is easy as I qualify from day one in italy ~ as I said I don't know if i will stay in italy or just head for france, but will have to get a residence certificate form whichever, lets say france as its most likely going to be, i could eave hubby and cats in france and head back to the UK and get MoT?

or am i better to get the equivient french documents?

i will be in france a maximum of 6 months i would think ~ so my 4x4 will fall under "PE"?

any advice details of documents procedures in france would be greatly appreciated as would any info on if i will get scrutinised arriving off the ferry in italy?

on the way out to North Africa, i pulled into dover port, got my ticket (prepaid online) had my passport glanced at and never saw customs again until North Africa!

even at the ferry port of genoa i only showed my passport to pick up my ticked again pre paid, and boarding pass and number of the deck to park the truck and caravan.

is it likely to be that easy coming INTO italy?

thanks for reading and thanks in advance for any replies and assistance.

im gonna go navigate around now and find out more about HUBB!
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  #85  
Old 4 Oct 2010
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No win

We had to break our trip and come back to UK for various reasons and were greeted with two fines for £80 apiece and recovery agents put on our case. One fine for the bike we are using for the trip and one for the mrs's bike left at home. After many phone calls to DVLA we realised we weren't going to have any joy, they have the line drawn and that is it as far as they are concerned. If you're out of UK for less than 12 months then your vehicle needs to be taxed, insured and a current MOT if applicable. Out of UK for more than 12 months then the vehicle has to be permanently exported, though to do this I believe that you need a permanent place of residence in another country ... duh, I'm travelling. There is no provision for people who are on extended trips outside of the UK so we are basically being forced by DVLA to commit an offence in one way or another.
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  #86  
Old 4 Oct 2010
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thank you, as i had read through the posts, i came to the conclusion travelling falls through the cracks,

all i can do is get some paperwork when i get to the EU and try and sort it out when i get back to the UK.

because I am married to a North African i do have a residence card here, and will be paying tax here, and i will be able to get residence status in France or italy so i guess i will comply with their regulations and see how it all works out in the end.
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  #87  
Old 4 Oct 2010
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I think I would be right in saying for an EU car to be legal in Europe it has to be legal in the home country. For a UK car that means an MOT.

The French Control Technique is bi-annual and although may well be similar obviously isn't identical.

Do you think if you were pulled in the UK on UK number plates by the police for instance that a French bit of paper would be acceptable to them? They wouldn't know what it was, but they can check easily themselves if you have an MOT. Roadsides cameras can too, so you can be fined on your way home without actually seeing anyone.

If you did annually SORN it then you could I suppose stay touring in Europe for a few years. The only sticking point there is your insurance. Some may specifically insist on an MOT, some may just say it must be roadworthy. Then you would need to book an MOT for your day of return to the UK and un-sorn it, the DVLA telling me I can't do it while abroad, but can't do it on the road, so I can only do it in the ferry disembarkation area! Have they heard of the internet?!?!
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  #88  
Old 4 Oct 2010
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I believe there is still no controle technique in France for bikes, so if stopped there is no interest in an MOT or CT certificate. There is also no road tax in France.
So a UK registered bike with no tax or MOT, an insurance company who states that they have no requirement for an MOT on the bike and it is SORNed is on a pretty safe bet in France...... I hope!
I book in for an MOT in Dover before leaving France when I go back to blighty and proceed directly to the Post office (on foot) for tax after the MOT. I am on the road in UK driving to a booked MOT at the closest point of arrival with no tax disc, what more can I do?
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  #89  
Old 4 Oct 2010
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Same old merry-go-round.

As it may have got buried in nearly 90 posts above, I repeat the situation as I have researched it (and it is not what DVLA try to tell you), –

Road Tax. Actually the Road Fund License, but the term Tax is expedient for this explanation. This is required only for UK Registered Vehicles using UK roads. The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c.22) PART III 29 says this is necessary if using a “Public Road” which PART V 62 defines as, “in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, a road which is repairable at the public expense”. In Scotland the definition is slightly different due to differing set-ups.
There is no definition of a ‘public road’ in France, Russia or the Moon.
Thus if a UK registered Vehicle is not used on a UK Public Road, Road Tax is not required. END OF MATTER!
DVLA will try to tell you, as do the DirectGov websites, you need tax while abroad - until you ask for the definitive legislation, and after having quoted the above Act to them they just mumble and quickly change the topic.

MOT. UK registered vehicles over a certain age (generally 3 years) requires an annual Certificate before it can be further used on the UK Public Roads. It is also needed to purchase Road Tax. There is an exemption in that it is permitted to use the Public Roads without a current MOT or Tax if taking the vehicle to and from a PRE-BOOKED MOT Inspection.. There is no requirement that it is booked at a Test Centre near your home, your point of entry or anywhere else – just as long as it is booked and you are reasonably on the route towards wherever you booked it for, from wherever you were. For example, returning to UK via the English Channel to the north of England – as long as the Test is booked before you get onto the roads at Dover and you are somewhere between the two (even stopping the night) you are within the Act.
With the proliferation of ANPR cameras (even now on most Police patrol cars in some areas) expect to be stopped – but if you have the details of the appointment, which they can have checked out later, you will be OK other than the bother of being suspected of being anything but a law abiding HUBBer!

Insurance. MOT is NOT generally a requirement of Insurers. Therefore not having an MOT will not mean you are uninsured. However they will look very dimly at a claim and seek to reject it, if it arose from an accident in some way due to the slightest mechanical deficiency that would have been apparent at a MOT inspection. They also ask to see the MOT following a claim, partly to try to find ways to ‘wriggle’ out of the claim and partly to confirm mileage (= value).

SORN. Here comes Catch 22! When the Road Tax of a UK registered vehicle expires (or is surrendered for refund) The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) regulations 2002 state it must be declared ‘Off road’ with SORN. The Regulations continue that the vehicle must still be in the UK to be eligible to be SORNed, although it will not of course be on a Public Road. The SORN must be renewed every year unless or until Road Tax is bought or the vehicle scrapped or permanently exported.

Abroad. As above the DVLA and DirectGov websites state they want you to pay them to use roads in other countries (even if there is no local road tax for the locals to pay!) but, as above, that is not supported by The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994.
Under the Geneva Treaties, travellers in private vehicles are entitled to use them, for visits of up to 6 months each, in other country (which have similarly signed the Treaties) temporarily without payment of local Customs Import duties and without modification to make the vehicle comply with local Construction rules - provided the vehicle fully complies with its ‘home’ Construction and Use Regulations and local Customs Duties paid in the country of registration and the registration continues. Note: Customs Duties do not include the Road Tax/ Road Fund License.
The EU, at times considering itself to be a single power, tries to introduce its own version of ‘international’ laws, even if in conflict with the Geneva Treaties which its member states have agreed individually (for example, those blue bits on number plates – the Geneva Treaties still require white oval GB/F/D/B etc plates – even if going to the neighboring country. EU has no power to overrule parts or all of the Geneva Treaties, nor has any country that signed it, including the UK – in for all of it or nothing!)





So! What to do?

You get nothing helpful from DVLA. Their interest is in getting onto the next caller, gathering penalties to offset their own costs and generally to assist Government fund raising by saying you must pay Road Tax if abroad (incorrect under the The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994). You rarely get the same answer twice, on the phone or in writing, (see the Emails they sent to Alex & Harley above!) and never a solution. Paul Gowen of the RAC shares the frustration – and we have yet to hear of the compromise someone claimed he achieved.

The nearest to a legally perfect solution I have come up with was put to the test nearly a year and a half ago and seems to be working! A friend was taking her car out of the UK (and out of EU) for an extended period. She submitted Part 11 from page 3-4 of the V5C (all you need abroad is page 1-2) to DVLA with a covering letter stating the car was going to be abroad for an indeterminate period, travelling from country to country – never more than 6 months in each. She required the Registration to be kept current to comply with the Geneva Treaties, to which Britain had signed, and she would contact DVLA before returning to arrange an MOT (or Vehicle Inspecorate inspection of identity) and visit a local DVLA office. She never received a reply and went on her way.
A few months ago we reached the anniversary of her leaving UK. Being in UK at the time, I phoned the DVLA to enquire if they were expecting a SORN – their reply was “No, the vehicle is Exported [no mention of Permanently] and it should be re-registered at a local DVLA office, with a MOT certificate or Vehicle Inspectorate certificate immediately it returns to the UK”.


And no doubt someone else has been told you can’t do this…………!



As ever, I am open to correction.
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  #90  
Old 5 Oct 2010
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HI TonyP

I didn't miss you post, i had dutifully read EVERY post in this thread ~ and i have yours copied and pasted into word and printed off to follow it lol

as it is my sons friend who deals with our MoT's i will contact him beofre i get back to the UK and will book the truck in for MoT, i will also make sure i have my insurance with me, which i can do online, and in theory that should be ok, and i don't care if its not thats what I am going to do!

because i have residence status here in north africa, i have to pay road tax, italy and france will know what it is as this country is full of french and italian cars!

i will probably get some sort of garage inspection/equivilent to UK MoT? in france, for my own piece of mind, and it won't hurt i guess to show the police that will no doubt stop me, or the cameras, that I made sure the vehicle WAS raodworthy, AND it had a prebooked MoT for the UK, WAS insured, and dutifully taxed as soon as MoT completed, trusting it passes one lol

thats what i figure on doing based on what i read in your post, and that i had read somewhere about traveling to the MoT station.

there used to be something about it being the nearest one? shortest traelling distance from the registered address of the vehicle? that will do to get me home!!!!

and thanks to everyone for being so helpful to a non biker! (ex kept the bike!! kwak ZJII 1000)
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