Go Back   Horizons Unlimited - The HUBB > All Miscellaneous questions > Travellers' questions that don't fit anywhere else

Travellers' questions that don't fit anywhere else This is an opportunity to ask any question, and post any notice you wish that doesn't fit into one of the other sections.
Contact Overland Solutions for all your custom modifications and setup for overland travel.

Calendar Contest Voting is now CLOSED. Results to be posted shortly.


Like Tree5Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 3 Aug 2012
Registered Users
New on the HUBB
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: ireland
Posts: 16
out of control

over the last few years i keep coming accross bikers on adventure bikes standing on there pegs.
as soon as they leave the tarmac they seem to be brain washed into thinking they will have more control standing.i have seen some serious states,wobbly and very uncomfortable looking shapes totally out of control.
i would love to know how this myth all started as its dangerous for novice riders nevermind the huge costs when they drop there pride and joy.
hopefully some readers will question the next time they decide to stand up and save themselves from injury and a skinny wallet.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 3 Aug 2012
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Aussie expat in Switzerland half way RTW
Posts: 613
I guess it depends on the who, when and where. It's pretty hard to conclusively say that standing on pegs is better or worse as I have had situations where it would have been impossible, read deasterous to stay seated and standing was the only option, if I was seated, it would've caused an accident, but the inverse is also true. More than happy to share my examples if it would sway the argument...

I guess people that stand-up on the pegs in normal conditions either are trying to stretch their legs or think that they are in some kind of Dakar Rally.

Standing-up on the pegs does have significant advantages in terms of reducing impact to the spine on rough terrain, as your knees are absorbing what the suspension can not. That said, to become good at it you have to practise it... like anything.

Statistically speaking, I don't think there is any evidence or empirical data that standing on pegs as opposed to sitting down causes more accidents. But I have been known to be wrong.

But of course not all bikes are suited to standing...
__________________
TurboCharger + Francois (our BMW R1200gs) '07
www.riding2up.net, blog.riding2up.net
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 3 Aug 2012
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: West Yorkshire UK
Posts: 1,172
Simon Pavey, you know, the bloke who rode the Paris Dakar a few times, he taught me to stand up (at great expense). You could also take a look at people who've done a bit of off roading like Dougie Lampkin. It isn't the awful seat or any embarrassing lack of fibre in their diet that makes them stand up you know

It's not the be all and end all of off road riding but in terms of getting your weight in the right place and getting some stability off road I think we can safely say it works (and is probably the biggest step in that direction short of getting a sidecar). It's the second thing they teach you on the off road courses, (picking the bike up is first), it lowers the acting centre of gravity as the load acts on the pegs not the seat and stays there.

Imagine balancing a bowling ball on your head as you walk, that's your bum on the seat. Now take the ball in both hands and raise it above your head. It's more stable because despite going higher the load is via your lower, wider shoulders. Your legs of course are better at this sort of thing that your arms.

Andy
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 3 Aug 2012
strimstrum's Avatar
Gold Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alcester UK & Idilevo, Bulgaria
Posts: 330
I find it much easier to stand when off road as it allows the bike to "squirm" between my legs rather than me "squirm" with the bike - much easier just topoint the front wheel where you want to go and let the back end dance it's own tune without my backside dancing with it.

That said - if it is a particularly long off road ride I tend to take occcassional breathers and sit down for a while on the smoother stretches, but it is very much a personal thing but it also depends on just how bad the road is.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 3 Aug 2012
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Boulder, CO, USA
Posts: 141
Just like anything, standing up without knowing what you are doing can be dangerous, especially on a bike not suited for it. But done properly on a bike suited for it that has been setup correctly ... I personally am convinced it makes off-pavement riding easier and safer. I spend a lot of time in my travels sitting down on dirt roads simply because I'm lazy. And because standing really doesn't give very much benefit on the average dirt road unless you're shielding your spine from bumps. But when I do stand up I can typically control the bike easier, react quicker, see better, and take less abuse from bumps. When I do go down, I'm also usually in a safer position if I'm standing than if I'm sitting. That said, I've been in situations where standing is impossible and others where it would have been a bad idea. And at least one time in Peru I could easily have been dead if I had been sitting down.

I should note that I've also had good teachers and spend lots of time practicing, even now when I'm traveling. I also have a bike designed for off-road use and setup to be good at it.
__________________
Traveling The World Since: June 2011
Bike: KLR 650
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 3 Aug 2012
Super Moderator
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: bellingham, WA, USA
Posts: 1,952
All responders have it right. My DL is hard to control when standing because it's not set up correctly (and too heavy anyway for off-road, but that's another story). My KLR is often easier and/or more safe, depending--but it does help to apply certain riding skills, without which there's no advantage. A true off-road bike is much more safe standing, even in my own inept hands--but it still has to be set up for your size, reach, etc.

I don't stand up unless it seems likely to help (or to stretch, see over traffic, or play around). On good gravel or dirt, seldom. Among densely-clustered potholes or other riding impediments, I'll stand even on the DL. Variety is the spice of life (or something).

Mark
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 3 Aug 2012
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London, W3 (the nice part though!)
Posts: 220
Something I've noticed amongst both 'overlanders' and also 'trailriders' back here in the UK. They stand up as soon as they get onto a gravel road, but the moment the going gets tricky their arse is back on the seat like a flash, and often their feet are stuck out trailing above the ground.

The latter is particularly dangerous if you value your ankles. Plus if you always ride tough terrain like this, you'll kill your dab reflex for when you come across a bit of hidden loose ground.


I think it's written in Chris Scott's handbook something like: 'No need to standup on loose ground, taking the weight off your arse and putting it onto your feet is enough'. And this is very true and appropriate advice for overland travel.

The only time as a novice I've felt it 100% natural to stand up is when going down hill slowly on loose/rocky ground.

But undoubtedly mastering standing up all the time is going to be a massive benefit off the tarmac. I don't think anyone would argue against this. But I think the original poster's point was that the majority of riders standing up are doing it because they think they should do, and not because it helps them. If you're not used to it, standing up will reduce your balance, and definitely reduce your control of the bike.
__________________
UK to Mongolia 2009, on a DR350
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 4 Aug 2012
Registered Users
New on the HUBB
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: ireland
Posts: 16
Talking out of control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threewheelbonnie View Post
Simon Pavey, you know, the bloke who rode the Paris Dakar a few times, he taught me to stand up (at great expense). You could also take a look at people who've done a bit of off roading like Dougie Lampkin. It isn't the awful seat or any embarrassing lack of fibre in their diet that makes them stand up you know

It's not the be all and end all of off road riding but in terms of getting your weight in the right place and getting some stability off road I think we can safely say it works (and is probably the biggest step in that direction short of getting a sidecar). It's the second thing they teach you on the off road courses, (picking the bike up is first), it lowers the acting centre of gravity as the load acts on the pegs not the seat and stays there.

Imagine balancing a bowling ball on your head as you walk, that's your bum on the seat. Now take the ball in both hands and raise it above your head. It's more stable because despite going higher the load is via your lower, wider shoulders. Your legs of course are better at this sort of thing that your arms.

Andy
all valid points.
although when i say standing thats what i mean.legs straight and there head and shoulders directly above the bars very unstable and rigid with no body movement.its a very common sight these days for some unknown reason.
simon pavey on the other hand is a delight to watch..knees bent,exchanging weight from one peg to the other and lots of calculated body movement.he is a professional after all.
the situations i refer to are guys standing when there is no benefit or gains to be had apart from fatigue and no control.plus side we get the odd laugh out of it without offending anybody of course.
its made me curious as we/i have only noticed this in the last few years out of nearly thirty years (novice)off roading.charlie and ewan could be the culprits.maybe its only a uk thing we may never know.
thanks for the replys .
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 4 Aug 2012
Registered Users
New on the HUBB
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: ireland
Posts: 16
out of control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nath View Post
Something I've noticed amongst both 'overlanders' and also 'trailriders' back here in the UK. They stand up as soon as they get onto a gravel road, but the moment the going gets tricky their arse is back on the seat like a flash, and often their feet are stuck out trailing above the ground.

The latter is particularly dangerous if you value your ankles. Plus if you always ride tough terrain like this, you'll kill your dab reflex for when you come across a bit of hidden loose ground.


I think it's written in Chris Scott's handbook something like: 'No need to standup on loose ground, taking the weight off your arse and putting it onto your feet is enough'. And this is very true and appropriate advice for overland travel.

The only time as a novice I've felt it 100% natural to stand up is when going down hill slowly on loose/rocky ground.

But undoubtedly mastering standing up all the time is going to be a massive benefit off the tarmac. I don't think anyone would argue against this. But I think the original poster's point was that the majority of riders standing up are doing it because they think they should do, and not because it helps them. If you're not used to it, standing up will reduce your balance, and definitely reduce your control of the bike.

yes nath i totally agree with you and mr scott.when riding 70% or more my ass is hovering a few inches above the seat while transfering weight to the pegs as thats were the control and comfort is at.
your last paragraph hit the nail on the head.
thanks for the reply bud.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 4 Aug 2012
Registered Users
New on the HUBB
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: ireland
Posts: 16
out of control

Quote:
Originally Posted by strimstrum View Post
I find it much easier to stand when off road as it allows the bike to "squirm" between my legs rather than me "squirm" with the bike - much easier just topoint the front wheel where you want to go and let the back end dance it's own tune without my backside dancing with it.

That said - if it is a particularly long off road ride I tend to take occcassional breathers and sit down for a while on the smoother stretches, but it is very much a personal thing but it also depends on just how bad the road is.
if riding a proper enduro bike i would agree with the above but certainly not on a 1200 gs,xl 1000 or v-storm.those backends do not dance they just sit it out(speaking for myself of course)
check out the new posts as they explain where i am coming from.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 4 Aug 2012
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 1,038
Afraid I totally disagree, when I had a large 'adventure bike' I stood up regularly for a variety of reasons and it never compromised my safety, in fact it felt easier to control, I wasn't getting kicked in the arse every time I hit something big and had better visibility.

I was what you would call a 'novice' - I had done about 500 miles on a motorbike before I set off on my first big trip, I'd never heard of Simon Pavey and no-one taught me to stand up off-road, it just felt easier, safer and instinctive.

I also spent a fair amount of time standing up on tarmac but that was more due to a very sore arse than improving handling.

On my last trip I never stood up because the bikewas too short and it pitched the weight too far forward (it was a 125 step-through though).

I'd say whether or not to stand up should depend on what you're riding, the surface and how you feel about it - not whether someone has told you to stand up or to sit down, you'd be just as likely to have a problem from sitting down when you shouldn't be (especially if you need to jump clear).

There is one exception though - whatever you do try and keep your feet on the pegs unless you actually need to put them down - it's much much harder to break your ankle that way!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 4 Aug 2012
Tim Cullis's Avatar
Moderator
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Putney, SW London
Posts: 1,327
Generally I ride offroad sitting down maybe 80-90% of the time. The one overwhelming good reason for standing up is to improve your forward vision. Compression of the spine comes to mind on bumpy sections, so I tend to stand there as well (or at least brace my legs and lift the bum slightly). And if I'm getting hot through a combination of hot weather, slow speed and hard work then I'll stand to get some air flow. Stretching your legs is another reason to stand.

Rough (as opposed to bumpy) sections are best taken standing up allowing the bike to squirm underneath you but it's a matter of confidence. If you feel happier sitting down, do so.

Offroad schools teach using weight transfer through the pegs (whilst standing) as a means of increasing turn rates. This works well on a relatively top-heavy Tenere but has little effect on something like the R1200GS where the weight is low down. Standing on the pegs doesn't actually lower the centre of gravity, if anything it raises it, which is why the bike reacts faster, see discussion here.

Many people I've watched don't stand correctly. They are in what skiers call the 'English toilet seat position' with a bent back and hesitant attitude, whereas the correct way is to be upright with your weight well forward towards or over the front wheel. However many tank bags prevent riders from adopting this well-forward position.

.
__________________
"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live,"
Irving Mather (1892-1966)

Access the Morocco Knowledgebase
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 4 Aug 2012
Registered Users
HUBB regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada
Posts: 87
Having recently completed a trip (with a good deal of gravel/dirt involved) on the first bike I've ever had that lent itself to standing up, I find the whole topic confusing.

My long ago high school physics tells me that, as Tim Cullis points out, standing does not lower the centre of gravity but raises it. Or maybe that's centre of mass. Are those different concepts?

Standing did seem to instantly offer more control. The same high school physics tells me (I think) that this phenomenon is not about centre of gravity but about levers. When you stand you become a longer lever and, therefore, you can lean the bike more easily. Turning is really about leaning so easier leaning means easier turning which means more control.

Imagine trying to rock (lean) a deep keeled sailboat by pushing on the side of the cabin. Tough. Now imagine trying to rock it by pushing on the top of the mast. Easier. The mast is a longer lever than the cabin. A standing rider is a longer lever than a sitting rider. Is this the answer?

Perhaps there's an actual physicist or mechanical engineer out there who can definitively explain all of this?

Norm
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 4 Aug 2012
Registered Users
HUBB regular
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Far North Queensland Australia
Posts: 80
standing

I'm pretty sure that the OP is not saying that standing is wrong, just that some are doing it wrong.

On my last jaunt in Europe I was lucky enough to spend a day at the BMW Off Road course at Hechlingen in Germany. Here we (all on the course) were taught the Hows, Whys, Wheres and Whens to stand up.

Of the 8 hours I spent on the bike (R1200GS) at this facility, about 80% was spent standing. Now this of course is a different situation to normal everyday riding. This was a specific course designed to (try to) give you some more skills. Skills that you would be able to adapt and use in the right situation later.

During the course we were instructed to do the same execise both sitting and standing in the correct position. Depending on the exercise, sometimes standing was better, sometimes sitting was better. This was done to show that given the situation, each style has its merits.

I'm sure that we have all stood up occassionally, whether to stretch the legs, to see over traffic, or for balance and stability. Given the right situation, on a correctly set up machine, employing the correct technique, standing will help. If you dont have all the "rights" together then it cold be dangerous.

Best thing is to get instruction on the Whys and Hows. Everyone can learn something new, even the most experienced riders.

Marty
__________________
An idea comes suddenly and in an intuitive way. But intuition is nothing but the outcome of earlier experience.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 5 Aug 2012
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: SW France
Posts: 255
I sit down as much as possible but notice that most modern trail/enduro bikes are set up a lot firmer meaning on some rough trails it is much more comfortable to stand up. I've increased the height of the bars by 80mm to avoid the lower back problems I've had before but it's still important to ride with your knees bent and therefore acting as suspension. Standing up for long distances with your knees bent is tiring. If you ride with your knees locked out you are achieving nothing - on rough trails the bike will yaw under you as the front end hits the bump and then the rear end and any shock will be transmitted through the footrests up through your body and you will need a very tight grip on the bars just to stay on the bike.

The main purpose of standing up is to allow the rider to transfer weight rapidly from front to back and side to side so any tricky section - ruts etc. you should stand up and get your weight forward for better steering move your weight back if you need to lift the front wheel.

I would say that on a modern softly sprung 'adventure' bike on gravel roads standing up is completely unnecessary.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 Registered Users and/or Members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Advice for Birth Control L'ilDRling Women's Topics 16 27 Jan 2013 19:30
cruise control kito Equipment Reviews 14 14 Apr 2012 19:02
simple cruise-control Freek Equipment Reviews 7 18 Mar 2012 22:22
Cruise Control jkclive TRAVEL Equipment for Sale / Wanted 1 3 Mar 2012 22:06
Khartoum to Ethiopia Birdy Ride Tales 2 26 Oct 2011 21:32

 
 



HU DVD Spring Special!

Buy the Achievable Dream Collectors Set and get Road Heroes Part 1 FREE!

Achievable Dream - The Whole Enchilada!

Cooped up indoors in crap weather? Binge watch over 20 hours of inspiring, informative and entertaining stories and tips from 150 travellers! Check it out at the HU Store! Remember to order them both and use Coupon Code 'BoxSet+' on your order when you checkout.


What others say about HU...

"I just wanted to say thanks for doing this and sharing so much with the rest of us." Dave, USA

"Your website is a mecca of valuable information and the DVD series is informative, entertaining, and inspiring! The new look of the website is very impressive, updated and catchy. Thank you so very much!" Jennifer, Canada

"...Great site. Keep up the good work." Murray and Carmen, Australia

"We just finished a 7 month 22,000+ mile scouting trip from Alaska to the bottom of Chile and I can't tell you how many times we referred to your site for help. From how to adjust your valves, to where to stay in the back country of Peru. Horizons Unlimited was a key player in our success. Motorcycle enthusiasts from around the world are in debt to your services." Alaska Riders


contest pic

10th Annual HU Travellers Photo Contest is on now! This is an opportunity for YOU to show us your best photos and win prizes!

NEW! HU 2014 Adventure Travel T-shirts! are now available in several colors! Be the first kid on your block to have them! New lower prices on synths!

HU 2014 T-shirts now in!

Check out the new Gildan Performance cotton-feel t-shirt - 100% poly, feels like soft cotton!


What turns you on to motorcycle travel?


Global Rescue, WORLDwide evacuation services for EVERYONE

Global Rescue is the premier provider of medical, security and evacuation services worldwide and is the only company that will come to you, wherever you are, and evacuate you to your home hospital of choice. Additionally, Global Rescue places no restrictions on country of citizenship - all nationalities are eligible to sign-up!




New to Horizons Unlimited?

New to motorcycle travelling? New to the HU site? Confused? Too many options? It's really very simple - just 4 easy steps!

Horizons Unlimited was founded in 1997 by Grant and Susan Johnson following their journey around the world on a BMW R80 G/S motorcycle.

Susan and Grant Johnson Read more about Grant & Susan's story

Membership - help keep us going!

Horizons Unlimited is not a big multi-national company, just two people who love motorcycle travel and have grown what started as a hobby in 1997 into a full time job (usually 8-10 hours per day and 7 days a week) and a labour of love. To keep it going and a roof over our heads, we run events (22 this year!); we sell inspirational and informative DVDs; we have a few selected advertisers; and we make a small amount from memberships.

You don't have to be a Member to come to an HU meeting, access the website, the HUBB or to receive the e-zine. What you get for your membership contribution is our sincere gratitude, good karma and knowing that you're helping to keep the motorcycle travel dream alive. Contributing Members and Gold Members do get additional features on the HUBB. Here's a list of all the Member benefits on the HUBB.



Books & DVDs

amazon

All the best travel books and videos listed and often reviewed on HU's famous Books page. Check it out and get great travel books from all over the world.


Motorcycle Express for shipping and insurance!

Motorcycle Express

MC Air Shipping, (uncrated) USA / Canada / Europe and other areas. Be sure to say "Horizons Unlimited" to get your $25 discount on Shipping!
Insurance - see: For foreigners traveling in US and Canada and for Americans and Canadians traveling in other countries, then mail it to MC Express and get your HU $15 discount!






All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:54.