Go Back   Horizons Unlimited - The HUBB > Chat Forum > The HUBB PUB

The HUBB PUB Chat forum - no useful content required!

BUT the basic rules of polite and civil conduct which everyone agreed to when signing up for the HUBB, will still apply, though moderation will be a LITTLE looser than elsewhere on the HUBB.
Contact Overland Solutions for all your custom modifications and setup for overland travel.

Poll: Do you think this economic crisis has just been planned well in advance?
Be advised that this is a public poll: other users can see the choice(s) you selected.
Poll Options
Do you think this economic crisis has just been planned well in advance?

Like Tree12Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 24 Oct 2011
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Seville (E) / Geneva (CH)
Posts: 530
Is there really an (general) economic crisis?

Rolls-Royce Posts Record Sales In First Half Of 2011

Swiss watch industry sees record sales for 2011

I have always thought that in general terms, but especially in the so-called economic crisis, money worked on the basis of the communicating vessels of Blaise Pascal, or paraphrasing a famous phycisist, "money can neither be created nor be destroyed: it can be transformed from one form to another or transferred from one POCKET to another" (change only money ca be created by the bank from nothing, except for your commitment to pay it back in [the form of a] 20 years [slavery]). I mean, your loose is their gain, just that. No less purchasing power in this world, it is only you can buy less 2nd hand crap while others will buy more RR. More harshly, your grandpa will have to sell his golden teeth at a ridiculous price since his pension fund collapsed and the guy fleed to Grand Cayman and so that others buy their Patek Philippe Grande Complication watch. What I mean is that "there is only a crisis for the many negatively affected", but not at all of those who are making the huge profit (exactly equivalent to those other's looses).

My girlfriend's best friend was fired today, because the (very stupid missmanaged) economic crisis we Spaniards are suffering. This looks like the film the "Highlander": "only one can survive", the richest among the rich (aka the big banks and the like). Then I was reading the news about the great success of the luxury industry in this times of recession. And I was considering...

Am I the only one thinking that this sort of economic crisis are just planned, guided, designed well in advance in order to destroy all the middle class and the small and medium enteprises?

Just a thought, I am not going to stop working tomorrow, I won't cancel my bank account or credit card, or will stop refuelling in the gas station, nothing will be changed, but it seems to me that this predatory system is already going too far and things may change abruptly as it has always happened all along the human history...

Last edited by estebangc; 24 Oct 2011 at 20:55.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 24 Oct 2011
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cambridge UK
Posts: 113
An interesting theory.
Have you watched Zeitgeist? It claims that the Worlds governments are effectively powerless. Power lies with the banks. Watch it if you can. It is very thought provoking.
__________________
This old world keeps spinning round, it`s a wonder tall trees ain`t laying down.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 24 Oct 2011
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cornwall, in the far southwest of England, UK
Posts: 447
The Game (Capitalism) is up mates. IT'S BLOODY OVER!

I won't go into my background, there's no point. BUT just trust me, if you want to go for a long overseas ride, then DO IT NOW .. before it's too late!

Take a look at this for a tiny-weeny introduction into what's coming your/our way: The Crash Course

See you on the other side.

.
__________________
Right Way Round ...

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 24 Oct 2011
spooky's Avatar
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Utopia/Germany
Posts: 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkShelley View Post
An interesting theory.
Have you watched Zeitgeist? It claims that the Worlds governments are effectively powerless. Power lies with the banks. Watch it if you can. It is very thought provoking.
That's the one you have to get hold on to... very much recommended to watch !
__________________
The trouble is that he was talking in philosophy, but they were listening in gibberish.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hobgoblinontour
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 24 Oct 2011
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: London
Posts: 106
Hey estaban, should this poll be split into regions of the world?

Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 24 Oct 2011
spooky's Avatar
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Utopia/Germany
Posts: 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith1954 View Post
The Game (Capitalism) is up mates. IT'S BLOODY OVER!

I won't go into my background, there's no point. BUT just trust me, if you want to go for a long overseas ride, then DO IT NOW .. before it's too late!

See you on the other side..
well yeah... you are dead right...

wasn't there a study from the MoD a few years back, where they tried to find out where and how future threat's are to be spotted.. ?

subserviently the result wasn't a 3rd world war or such... no the most likely threat's will be riots and demonstrations looting and hunger of the masses of poor and mistreated population all over in any country, but specially in the so called industrialised world... yeah didn't we just see the start of it... just a little taster in London this year... just look at the growing "occupied movements"... it's just the beginning of much more to come...
anyway the MoD study recommend to target just this in the coming years as the main threat politicians have to deal with...

YES... I only can confirm... you are right... "DO IT NOW .. before it's too late!" rather sooner than later...
__________________
The trouble is that he was talking in philosophy, but they were listening in gibberish.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hobgoblinontour
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 25 Oct 2011
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by estebangc View Post
Am I the only one thinking that this sort of economic crisis are just planned, guided, designed well in advance in order to destroy all the middle class and the small and medium enteprises?

In short, planned - no, predictable - yes.

The starting point is the following quote:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing. "

We, the people, vote in the governments that allow this all to happen.

Bad governments make bad policies reacting to short term incentives.

The people (who are consumers) live beyond their means and push the government and their policies to their limit to allow them to do so.

Too much debt in government, too much debt in business, too much debt for individuals.

Normal economic shocks happen and an overly burdened government, business, or person will collapse under the weight.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 25 Oct 2011
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: West Yorkshire UK
Posts: 1,225
Sorry guys have to disagree with all the doom and gloom. I work in manufacturing just over 100 miles from where the industrial revolution started. We've seen it all before. The US civil war cut off our raw material, we switched to army blankets made from rags (recyling before the word was invented) even though people starved during the switchover. The money markets wents bad in the 1930's and we suffered. Same again in the 80's but the recovery was in China and India.

Manufacturing here is now lean and only has the high value jobs. No recession here, we can't make the stuff fast enough. The wealth stays here too.

This recession is just the movement of low value, low skill jobs in other sectors and the same in manufacturing that was falsely protected in the '80's. Sure, the bankers will scream as their 2 hour a week paper shuffling jobs are moved to India and the media will sulk as paper goes the way of the dinosaurs but people adapt. India call centres are now for the Indian market who has money and love their accents. The printers will have to move into IT or plumbing or something someone else can't do remotely for less.

It's just a recession caused by a reshuffle of wealth made worse by panic spread by better communication. It will end when people decide to end it. Resources are not short, peak oil, when we'll have the most ever is 20 years away. The next recession in the 2030's could be about resources when all those Indian insurance companies have power cuts and realise they've sold pyramid schemes.

Andy
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 25 Oct 2011
*Touring Ted*'s Avatar
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Wirral, England.
Posts: 4,428
There are just too many people in this world.... It's not sustainable.

Everything has to be fought for. Jobs, resources, land, fishing rights etc etc.

It's not going to get better until something DRASTIC is done about world population. If we don't sort that ourselves, then it will be left to war, famine or an epidemic to correct.

__________________
www.TouringTed.com
1994 XR650L
2001 NX650 Dominator.

BMW Dealer Technician
Welder/Fabricator

Ushuaia - Colombia 2007/8
UK- South Africa 2010/11
India 2012
Yukon 2012
S.E Asia 2014
U.K - Magadan 2015
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 25 Oct 2011
Registered Users
HUBB regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Kapellen/Antwerp
Posts: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith1954 View Post
The Game (Capitalism) is up mates. IT'S BLOODY OVER!

I won't go into my background, there's no point. BUT just trust me, if you want to go for a long overseas ride, then DO IT NOW .. before it's too late!

Take a look at this for a tiny-weeny introduction into what's coming your/our way: The Crash Course

See you on the other side.

.
I agree with that! We leave in December for the American continent, comming from Europe.
Wathever their will be happening, it will be Something. I believe there will be a big chance in the world. For me, I think it is important to make shure that you know what is really important for you and to stick on that. I mean, do you know your values in live? Are you able to chance it? Can you hold on on it when al your "material power" is gone? Each morning when I wake up, I try to do it without "craving" for something. Even not a cup of coffee.
Beside that, I am shure that the power in the world for this moment is on a very small group of families, how al depending on each other. And I believe that we, concience-(travel)-people can chance this power, if we hold on on our one values.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 25 Oct 2011
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Essex UK
Posts: 152
If the press would shut the f**k up about it ......

....Things would be nowhere near as bad as they are.

The most damaging factor is the ' FEAR FACTOR '.

If the TV and press were to shut up about it, things would be nowhere near as bad, people would just go about their lives, treat themselves to the odd little luxury, new car or kitchen, and things would move, money would circulate, and so on.

But, as we all know, the only news is BAD NEWS, so looks like my wish wont be granted!!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 25 Oct 2011
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Seville (E) / Geneva (CH)
Posts: 530
So, we all agree: some people say it was planned in advance, others vote is was planned now! (SORRY, I MEAN NO, OBVIOUSLY).

I’ll have to watch Zeitgeist, although I tend to avoid thinking too much: do not watch TV, no read papers, only read some news on line. It gets too sad. Recommendation: documentary “Money is Debt”, about the basis of the capitalist system.

Great approach: go for the trip, a big tsunami is getting ready to hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socks View Post
Hey estaban, should this poll be split into regions of the world?


I see your point. I am not meaning general growth, but equitative growth: are rich Indians becoming extremely rich while poor Indians struggling so much to buy 1 kg of rice due to food speculation? Macroeconomic statistics would hide huge micro-economic differences. Isn’t it sad?

Food speculation: 'People die from hunger while banks make a killing on food'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/jan/23/food-speculation-banks-hunger-poverty

Low and middle class was affected here one way; a different and much harder way on other areas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMan View Post
In short, planned - no, predictable - yes.

Same same, but different? Stupid example: let’s say you work in real estate and you have a crystal ball to know there will be an earthquake in 2 years. You start buying, you fuel the bubble as much as you can. Then you sell 2 months before the earthquake and make huge profits (1st round). After the earthquake, when everybody needs the cash, you buy really cheap again (2nd round of profit). Isn’t it the same predictable and planned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Touring Ted* View Post
There are just too many people in this world.... It's not sustainable.
True, there is only a cake to share. Apart from inefficiency dealing with the resources available and the fact that the West is in regression, some dudes are just taking your part. I mean that the gap top-base of the pyramid is getting bigger anywhere, not only here in the West, but everywhere (I mean proportionally).

I find extremely sad and disgusting to see how OUR States get to the “markets” to sell OUR debt as if they were prostitutes, selling our future pensions, kids schooling, etc, so that the politicians (aka the pimps) can pay their debt to those “richest of the rich” who fund their campaigns (of all parties). Oh yes, as we say in Spanish, “estás cogido por los cojones”.

Quite interestingly, in our very own crisis in Spain, all SME are falling down, receiving no support by the government, while the big ones get non-refundable credits paid by all of us. “To big to fail”, funny story they want us to believe.

What about general population? Let me write even longer: Common Law (UK and ex colonies) is based in jurisprudence, but (our) continental system is based on regulations, and far back in Roman Law. Yes, these guys understood justice and invented almost all, included the mortgage: if you cannot pay the credit, then we get the property (real state), end of the story. Well, in my beloved country, mortgages are not any more like that: you were fired and can’t pay any more, then you give the house back. End of the story? Nooooo… Your house will be valued again (1st time value was inflated, so you got a bigger mortgage) and it happens it’s worth, let’ssay, ½ its original value. Oh man, you still have to pay more: no job, no house, but a debt to pay.

And it is more important that the capital keeps on making money, squeezing most of the population, than providing a shelter. And still we accepted, we that supposedly decide who’s going to the ruling your f**king nation, country, homeland! Isn’t it amazing?

Sorry to be so long, when I was in Nepal last December I wrote to my friends saying: nobody is going to do anything, nobody will go to the City Hall to say enough? I seems it finally happened.

PS: Ruled by bipolar investors: (today) markets are very optimistic after the European Central Bank said that it will buy Greek debt. (tomorrow) Desperation in the markets, massive looses after Standard & “Richs” said Greek debt is “junk”. AREN’T WE EVER GOING TO TAX STOCKS BUY/SALES TO STOP SPECULATION?????? You pay taxes for every damn transaction of property and you do not pay for buying/selling stocks???? Come on… (I've got friends working in banking, I am not meaning anyone in the field is evil, only that it needs more regulation).
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 25 Oct 2011
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cornwall, in the far southwest of England, UK
Posts: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by leevtr View Post
The most damaging factor is the ' FEAR FACTOR '.

If the TV and press were to shut up about it ..

But, as we all know, the only news is BAD NEWS, so looks like my wish wont be granted!!
@ leevtr – Emotions (fear, lust, envy .. indifference, et al) has nothing to do with our current predicament. Forget all about that stuff.

It’s the mathematics my friend. You just cannot argue with the maths. I don’t care about the economists, the banksters, the politicians, the press, the financial commentators and all the doom-and-gloomers out there. Forget all about them too.

See, you just cannot escape, change or alter the basic principles of simple Grade 5 arithmetic. It really isn't any more complex than that.

I really hope I'm wrong btw.

Time for me to STFU, I think!

PS - THIS LINK is a highly appropriate to the issue.
.
__________________
Right Way Round ...


Last edited by Keith1954; 25 Oct 2011 at 19:14.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 25 Oct 2011
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Seville (E) / Geneva (CH)
Posts: 530
Coming back to the Cash "Pocket Swap" approach.

If my maths and data are correct (Forbes does not publish any more this "useless" info), the 25 richest people in 1997 made a total of 381.7 Billion USD.

The 25 richest in 2011 made 793 billion. That means 207% total increase, or 5,36% steady average annual increase. Those look quite good results, don’t they? So, is it possible that all that cash came from someone’s else savings?

I should quit this line of thinking and focus on trips, brakes and valve clearance… it's much more enjoyable. My head’s been a little too hot yesterday and today (I knew someone else was fired here in Switzerland too ).

But it’s nice to share some other thoughts here as well.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 25 Oct 2011
Gold Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: England
Posts: 278
I worked on a car today that costs £74000. When you open the door, the steering wheel moves upwards eight inches to accomodate your hefty diabetes inducing gut, then when you put the key in, it moves down to stop you straining your weak and useless excuses for arms. I tried to move the 4.5 litre waste of finite resources forwards later, and couldn't find the gearstick, before realising it had paddles behind that oh so accomodating wheel, because changing gear traditionally takes time and effort that our busy days just don't have any room for nowdays. Then I had to reverse it back to where I started, and was surprised when the behemoth spoke to me, and blared through the workshop too. It told me to watch out for obstacles, because the manufacturers probably didn't want to get sued for not warning me things could be behind me, or warning the hypothetical pedestrians that walking into a moving car could hurt.

Being fit and healthy, using old technology that works, and using the neck and eyes that we used to use to look where we were going, not to mention the brain held up there, is so 20th century. We can buy our way out of our stagnant pit. Can't we?

While I was working on this car (if you are interested, a new rear bumper at a cost of £687 (part only) and a rear left hand light cluster at a cost of £224 part only) I was listening to the radio. Japanese Ragweed was the hot topic, which was described as 'terrifying,' 'your worst nightmare,' and 'something that should never happen to anyone.' I daydreamed happily about sending these useless mouths to Afghan to teach them the meaning of terror. The news was describing a bunch of overpaid and over important stuffed suits with nice houses as 'rebels,' for mildly dissenting over irrelevant financial matters. 'Fluff you Che, get out of here Von Stauffenberg, up yours Lenin, the tory conference is here and they are rebelling while they eat their cakes and drink their tea.' I turned to a commercial station, and was told that my 'Shopping Soulmate' is coming soon in town. It's a new shopping centre, like the old one, but bigger, and sells more stuff so we can work harder, for less money, for longer, to buy more stuff we don't need. I hope if I have a soulmate out there, she's not such a b**ch.


It sickens me that £74000 of intrinscially worthless paper give the owner of this car respect in our society. We seem to be progressing with no regard for where we are going, or slowing down to ask 'why?'

I'm a little bit sick of a society that is of no more innate worth than the corrupt and childish fuel that runs and motivates it. I've barely set foot back here and I want to leave again.

Oh, but I can't yet, as the bits of paper have taken a mind of their own, and the men in control of them have lost that control. While somehow they still get richer....? real life; stranger than science fiction.

I think that was my way of saying, 'yes, I fully agree with you Mr Estebangc!'

I'm off traveling for a long period, then returning to Spain to live on my mountain, herd goats and sit at my typewriter until the planet chokes on our filth and sends us the way of the dinosaurs.

Birdy

(Btw, it's good to be back people!)
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 Registered Users and/or Members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


 
 


HU DVD Summer Special!

Now that summer is here, get On the Road! Take 30% off the Achievable Dream - On the Road! 2-DVD set until August 31 only. Get On the Road! Learn the tips to staying healthy, happy and secure on your motorcycle adventure!

Our veteran travellers share their tips (and great stories) for staying healthy, happy and secure on your motorcycle adventure.

"A fantastic, informative and inspirational DVD."

"It's brilliant - thank you very much!"

Check it out at the HU Store! Remember to use Coupon Code 'ONTHEROAD' on your order when you checkout.


Renedian Adventures


Renedian Adventures

What others say about HU...

"I just wanted to say thanks for doing this and sharing so much with the rest of us." Dave, USA

"Your website is a mecca of valuable information and the DVD series is informative, entertaining, and inspiring! The new look of the website is very impressive, updated and catchy. Thank you so very much!" Jennifer, Canada

"...Great site. Keep up the good work." Murray and Carmen, Australia

"We just finished a 7 month 22,000+ mile scouting trip from Alaska to the bottom of Chile and I can't tell you how many times we referred to your site for help. From how to adjust your valves, to where to stay in the back country of Peru. Horizons Unlimited was a key player in our success. Motorcycle enthusiasts from around the world are in debt to your services." Alaska Riders

contest pic

10th Annual HU Travellers Photo Contest is on now! This is an opportunity for YOU to show us your best photos and win prizes!

NEW! HU 2014 Adventure Travel T-shirts! are now available in several colors! Be the first kid on your block to have them! New lower prices on synths!

HU 2014 T-shirts now in!

Check out the new Gildan Performance cotton-feel t-shirt - 100% poly, feels like soft cotton!


What turns you on to motorcycle travel?


Global Rescue, WORLDwide evacuation services for EVERYONE

Global Rescue is the premier provider of medical, security and evacuation services worldwide and is the only company that will come to you, wherever you are, and evacuate you to your home hospital of choice. Additionally, Global Rescue places no restrictions on country of citizenship - all nationalities are eligible to sign-up!


New to Horizons Unlimited?

New to motorcycle travelling? New to the HU site? Confused? Too many options? It's really very simple - just 4 easy steps!

Horizons Unlimited was founded in 1997 by Grant and Susan Johnson following their journey around the world on a BMW R80 G/S motorcycle.

Susan and Grant Johnson Read more about Grant & Susan's story

Membership - help keep us going!

Horizons Unlimited is not a big multi-national company, just two people who love motorcycle travel and have grown what started as a hobby in 1997 into a full time job (usually 8-10 hours per day and 7 days a week) and a labour of love. To keep it going and a roof over our heads, we run events (22 this year!); we sell inspirational and informative DVDs; we have a few selected advertisers; and we make a small amount from memberships.

You don't have to be a Member to come to an HU meeting, access the website, the HUBB or to receive the e-zine. What you get for your membership contribution is our sincere gratitude, good karma and knowing that you're helping to keep the motorcycle travel dream alive. Contributing Members and Gold Members do get additional features on the HUBB. Here's a list of all the Member benefits on the HUBB.


Books & DVDs

amazon

All the best travel books and videos listed and often reviewed on HU's famous Books page. Check it out and get great travel books from all over the world.


Motorcycle Express for shipping and insurance!

Motorcycle Express

MC Air Shipping, (uncrated) USA / Canada / Europe and other areas. Be sure to say "Horizons Unlimited" to get your $25 discount on Shipping!
Insurance - see: For foreigners traveling in US and Canada and for Americans and Canadians traveling in other countries, then mail it to MC Express and get your HU $15 discount!




All times are GMT +1. The time now is 23:04.