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  #1  
Old 6 Mar 2008
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non EU natioanls will req. ID cards in UK

The British government today announced their policy on ID cards. Non EU nationals coming to the UK will be required to enroll on the UK National Identity Register from next year and carry AT ALL TIMES the biometric ID card you will be issued with. You will be required to present your ID card to almost any government official from a litter warden upwards upon demand.

It's not clear on the mechanics but in the UK there are interogation centres around the country being set up where people can be "enrolled" and made to provide up to 63 items of data. You will then be photographed, fingerprinted, possibly have your DNA taken and put onto databases to which you will be prohibited from accessing yourself.

2008 - Compulsory for non-EU nationals


For non EU nationals, our government is very afraid of you; almost as afraid as they are about us here in the UK. I am emigrating for this and other related reasons and sadly would reccomend you not coming to this country. It used to be nice, now it's just nasty.
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Old 6 Mar 2008
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Wink Brit Govn - EU official policy

To follow on from the last post a bit: the Brit Govn is cuffing this as they go along, like most of their activity, except completing their claims for expenses!!.

So, a rep of our Govn (the Minister responsible for implementing it actually) was interviewed today on the TV and she explained, among other things, that this is all in accord with EU policy and directives (on which we will not be having a referendum) and there are lots of exceptions, including for short(ish) visits to the UK: i.e. visas are still a valid alternative to these new ID cards - so that's OK then.

In the end, it's all about Biometrics.

ps If you are off to France, to name one country, it is compulsory to carry their ID card if you "go national".
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Old 6 Mar 2008
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id cards.

Quote:
I am emigrating for this and other related reasons and sadly would recommend you not coming to this country. It used to be nice, now it's just nasty.
Yes as an ex patriot i left england 22yrs ago and came to usa.It's sad what is happening over there,It has be come the George Orwell country.more cctv than any other country.I have noticed that the english attitude seems to be let the government run our lives.No one ever seems to protest?Even tho its a democracy. Where are you immigrating to? many countries have some sort of i'd cards now day's. It's just the way it is. Gone are the days of trust as so many people have abused it. Identity theft, credit card scams,immigration,and terrorism. I'm not sure of any other way. Just one mans opinion.
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  #4  
Old 7 Mar 2008
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Originally Posted by brittman View Post
Yes as an ex patriot i left england 22yrs ago and came to usa.It's sad what is happening over there,It has be come the George Orwell country.more cctv than any other country.I have noticed that the english attitude seems to be let the government run our lives.No one ever seems to protest?Even tho its a democracy. Where are you immigrating to? many countries have some sort of i'd cards now day's. It's just the way it is. Gone are the days of trust as so many people have abused it. Identity theft, credit card scams,immigration,and terrorism. I'm not sure of any other way. Just one mans opinion.
Your observations are accurate; too many brits like the idea of "total government" and behave in a bovine like manner when it comes to these things, they just want the government to run their lives for them. One thing made me laugh last night when the shadow home secretary said most people see Orwell's "1984" as a warning; New Labour see it as a template!

As in America, the politics of fear reign here; make people scared and you can gain more power for yourself. The more scared you make 'em, the more power you can acrue. Indeed ID cards are tangible manifestations of this; not only do they make the people accountable to the state as opposed to the opposite, they are devisive by definition - if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear...trust no one. A suspect nation indeed.

I for one will not apply for a license to live in my own 'effin country! The only way they will make me carry their ID card is when they press one into my cold, dead hand.

It is true that most European counties have ID cards in some form. Out of 16 who them by compulsion, 14 introduced them when they were under dictatorships. The UK ID card scheme is part of a wider scheme, the National Identity Register which is the worlds biggest database and this is the true idea behind the scheme, not the cards themselves. It is the most powerful mass surveilance tool ever envisaged and is unique in all the world in its nature, scope and power.

To be fair, many of us do protest. Indeed last week the government had to abandon national road pricing after 2 million people signed a petition against citing mass surveillance (devices would need to fittied to vehicles allowing journeys to be tracked by satellite) and also as yet another stealth tax and there is NO2ID:stop ID cards and the database state which is a pressure group opposed to ID cards.

Many people feel like I do and just want to get out. Indeed emigration figures show people are leaving by the million (literally). I read on these forums about how things are in other countries, how safe, what goes on etc. Well I live in Liverpool and I can tell you that the things we take for granted here, everyday experiences and events, if wrtten in the context of some remote, exotic sounding country would shock and sicken travellers and certainly put off travellers from coming here!

As to where I am going? EVERYWHERE! lol which is why I'm on this forum. If I do settle in Europe it would be Aosta which is semi automonous and in Italy, they take no notice of the government anyway! Apart from that the only country which I may consider would be British Columbia based on never having been there (yet!)

PS if any hubbers are contemplating coming to Liverpool for its European Capital of Culture celebrations - DON'T.

A local bylaw makes it illeagal to park a motorcycle on the road, anywhere but the designated multi story carpark, (in)conveniently located away from the city centre and in one location where the bike thieves can easily choose which of them to steal.
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Old 7 Mar 2008
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The Flip Side

If like me you're an ex-pat Brit you WON'T be eligable for an ID card. This means if you ever go back to the UK, you'll be a Brit without ID, and whilst it' not going to be compuslory (they say) just imagine how much fun it'll be when your bank/shops etc start demanding it...

And don't start me on biometric passports and applying for them when you're an ex-pat.
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Old 7 Mar 2008
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Hi fastship , sorry to burst your bubble but British Columbia is not a country , it's a province of Canada .
Canada inherited British beaurocracy and then added another layer of stupidity .
Taxes are high and personal liberty /property rights are less than UK [ or it was when I left UK a few years back ].
Health care coverage is archaic .
There is lots of space here and fantastic scenery which makes it bearable , generally speaking people are more laid back then in Britain .
There are crowds in the cities down south ,crime,drugs and racial gang problems same as any big city anywhere else in the world.
I imagine they want to put CCTV [and associated crap like that] in parts of Vancouver as well , I imagine the good citizens think it's a good idea .
Up here in the north ,the rednecks would probably shoot the lenses out of the cameras.
I prefer to be up north .
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Old 7 Mar 2008
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OH and just to point out it's non-EU RESIDENTS who will require one, not non-EU visitors.
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Old 8 Mar 2008
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Originally Posted by Dodger View Post
Hi fastship , sorry to burst your bubble but British Columbia is not a country , it's a province of Canada .
Canada inherited British beaurocracy and then added another layer of stupidity .

I prefer to be up north .
I know that! - I have family there, one in the RCMP too.

But thanks for bursting my bubble surely there is someplace I can find to be happy! Hey - maybe I am a redneck too
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Old 8 Mar 2008
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Hey - maybe I am a redneck too [/QUOTE]

Then I imagine you'll "fit in" very well ! - ha ha !
Good luck in your choice of country , there's a whole bunch to chose from , just keep on travelling until you find one you like .
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Old 6 Apr 2008
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by brittman View Post
Yes as an ex patriot i left england 22yrs ago and came to usa.It's sad what is happening over there,It has be come the George Orwell country.more cctv than any other country.I have noticed that the english attitude seems to be let the government run our lives.No one ever seems to protest?Even tho its a democracy. Where are you immigrating to? many countries have some sort of i'd cards now day's. It's just the way it is. Gone are the days of trust as so many people have abused it. Identity theft, credit card scams,immigration,and terrorism. I'm not sure of any other way. Just one mans opinion.
This is all a bit much from someone in a country which has the illegally operated Guantanamo Bay, kidnaps people, tortures the inmates, denies them lawyer contact, takes them to a kangaroo court, and which operates the most invasive surveillance on its citizens. To say nothing of plotting (against its own laws) to murder heads of state it doesnt like.

I dont like the amount of surveillance in the UK either, but dont pretend that you live in a free country.
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  #11  
Old 8 Apr 2008
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Classes, not items

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Originally Posted by Fastship View Post
made to provide up to 63 items of data.
That is actually 63 classes of data so if, for example, you own a house of your own and a quarter share in a holiday home you are supposed to declare both. That is two items but only one class of data.

Although many other countries have their own ID cards, and some even have ID databases, I have been told (and it seems reasonable to this slaphead old cynic) the new British database will be the "biggest and best". With any luck that means they'll never get it working before I'm ready to leave (when younger daughter leaves school - I know a few army brats who's education and childhood was screwed by too many changes of school).
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Old 8 Apr 2008
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I really don't understand the aversion to ID cards.... but then maybe I have no problem with it because I have nothing to hide. Having lived and worked outside the UK for over 20 years it's normal to me to have some formal type of ID. Holland, Belgium and Germany all have it and it's very handy. No problems with identity theft here. You can open a bank account without having to produce a utility bill as evidence of where you live. Hire companies know who they are lending stuff to, credit agreements are safer because the lender knows who he is dealing with and when some toe rag does something wrong and is collared by the police they won't have to spend hours playing games because he gives them false name and address. What's the problem with being able to prove who you are ?
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Old 9 Apr 2008
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Originally Posted by Gecko View Post
I really don't understand the aversion to ID cards.... but then maybe I have no problem with it because I have nothing to hide.
I agree actually. This current government has let our country go so far up shit creek that such a system is needed. We live in a country that is so over the top politically correct that this is the situation that has arisen from it.

For example, while I was working for Social Services/Children's Services Department, we had several families of asylum seekers living in our area who would claim benefits for not only their own children, but also for any children they could "borrow" at the time they were visited by any statutory agencies. It was a case of "prove it" and "are you saying we all look the same?". An ID card, issued to each person at the point of entry into the UK wouldn't be an overnight fix but would be a starting point to help tackle this and other related problems.

BTW, this example is not an isolated incident and is happening all over the country and you and I, the taxpayer are paying for it. I'm 31, always worked, paid NI contributions and never claimed dole but I'll be lucky if there's any money left for a state pension when I retire.

A DNA database is already in place so if you are arrested, even for a minor offence, a DNA sample will be taken and compared against the database. Nothing to hide = nothing to worry about. Unfortunately, I think it's a case of too little, too late.
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Old 14 Apr 2008
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Only the innocent have anything to fear

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Originally Posted by Gecko View Post
I really don't understand the aversion to ID cards.... but then maybe I have no problem with it because I have nothing to hide.
I have little objection to identity cards, its the underlying database I object to, in the sure and certain knowledge that records WILL be misfiled; innocent people will at best suffer huge inconvenience at the hands of bureaucratic incompetance and indifference; and crimes will continue to be committed and go undetected. It cannot be said often enough that the proposed British scheme is far more intrusive than anything ever tried before, meaning it will be more complex and thuis more subject to error, whether accidental or deliberate. Organised crime will be selling "clean" database entries as soon as the system is implemented and, if you really have nothing to hide, your records will be worth buying. When the person who has stolen your identity commits a crime you had better hope you have a water tight alibi because it will be almost impossible to defend yourself.

I have done work in the care industry where, last year 2,500 people were victims of an "error" that meant they were unable to start jobs for which they had been recruited and for which they were qualified. The Criminal Records Bureau wrongly returned positive results for their CRB checks, meaning they were not allowed to work with children or vulnerable adults. The CRB excused itself claiming it had applied the precautionary principal. That's alright then - 2,500 people were denied the right to earn an honest living, provide for themselves and their families and do jobs which they found rewarding (no one works in care for the money) because of a government "error". I do not for a moment believe such errors will disappear if/when the national ID database is up and running, if anything they will increase. More people will be denied the right to earn a living, or to travel, or even of freedom itself (computer says you are guilty - you're nicked sonny!).

I had a CRB check (recently expired and not renewed as I have changed jobs) which demonstrates that I have nothing to hide, but I know I have everything to fear.
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Old 16 Apr 2008
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That is a worrying thought. In principle, its a good idea but how secure and tamperproof the database would be a concern.

I still stick by my opinion that there are sections of the population in this country that for various reasons, need to be monitored, regardless of what they think their human rights should be.
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