Go Back   Horizons Unlimited - The HUBB > Technical, Bike forums > Tech

Tech ALL bikes: "Generic" tech questions and answers. Maintenance, general discussions etc.
Contact Overland Solutions for all your custom modifications and setup for overland travel.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 11 Jan 2011
Dodger's Avatar
Large Golden Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 1,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by farqhuar View Post
I honestly don't know the answer to that question, and I wish I did. If there any auto-electrical boffins on the site I'd be very pleased to hear from them.
I'm not a boffin by any means and ,at the risk of being proven wrong ,would venture to say that ;
the battery has to supply some voltage to energise the alternator in order to produce a charge .
If battery voltage is too low , this will not happen ,the alternator will not provide sufficient charge and the battery will discharge itself quickly .Any momentary boost from another vehicle will only have a short lasting effect .On a modern bike and especially one with FI , you need a good battery -period - full stop .
If there were a permanent magnet alternator on the bike [which is self energising] you would PROBABLY be OK as the alternator would provide 14 v regardless of the battery condition and keep the bike running once you have found a way to get it started in the first place .
A battery with a bad cell will never charge successfully as it will always draw the good cells down to it's own voltage .

Theoretically ,I have never tried this , you could use some flashlight batteries to energise your alternator and then tow or bump start the bike .
After a long enough tow ,with the engine spinning over ,the system might reach the critical voltage for the FI to kick in and give it life .
__________________
Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light. - Spike Milligan
"When you come to a fork in the road ,take it ! When you come to a spoon in the road ,take that also ."
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 11 Jan 2011
Dodger's Avatar
Large Golden Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 1,098
Or

You could try this .


YouTube - Emergency Starting Technique
__________________
Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light. - Spike Milligan
"When you come to a fork in the road ,take it ! When you come to a spoon in the road ,take that also ."
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 11 Jan 2011
Moderated Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodger View Post
I'm not a boffin by any means and ,at the risk of being proven wrong ,would venture to say that ;
the battery has to supply some voltage to energise the alternator in order to produce a charge .
If battery voltage is too low , this will not happen ,the alternator will not provide sufficient charge and the battery will discharge itself quickly .Any momentary boost from another vehicle will only have a short lasting effect .On a modern bike and especially one with FI , you need a good battery -period - full stop .
If there were a permanent magnet alternator on the bike [which is self energising] you would PROBABLY be OK as the alternator would provide 14 v regardless of the battery condition and keep the bike running once you have found a way to get it started in the first place .
A battery with a bad cell will never charge successfully as it will always draw the good cells down to it's own voltage .

Theoretically ,I have never tried this , you could use some flashlight batteries to energise your alternator and then tow or bump start the bike .
After a long enough tow ,with the engine spinning over ,the system might reach the critical voltage for the FI to kick in and give it life .
Now I really am confused! Not sure what you mean by 'energize the alternator' - as I understand it, this is a magnet rotating around coils of copper wire which induces an electrical current in the coils due to the changing magnetic flux - it is 'energized' by physical motion of the magnetic field around the coils of wire and does not need a primer charge. The resulting AC is then converted to DC by the rectifier and the voltage regulated to 14 V or so by the regulator which is upstream of the battery and FI/ECU. How does the ECU distinguish between 12V that has come from rectified and regulated AC off the alternator as opposed 12 V from some other source applied across the battery terminals, be that other batteries or solar charger? Dunno and in fact I'm not convinced this is the case....

When I checked the power rating of fuel pumps, they came out at between about 2 and 10 watts depending on the size and flow rate; also need enough juice to activate the injectors and run the ECU as well as generate a spark in the plugs, perhaps 20 watts or so. Should be possible to generate this by a number of methods....
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11 Jan 2011
Dodger's Avatar
Large Golden Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 1,098
There are two kinds of alternators generally fitted to bikes .The one you have just described is a permanent magnet rotor alternator [ with actual magnets ].
Like the old Lucas alternators fitted to Brit bikes .

The other kind uses electromagnets [coils] to produce the north and south poles of the rotor ,these act like physical magnets when spun around a stator .This kind has to have a reasonably healthy battery voltage in order to work .
__________________
Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light. - Spike Milligan
"When you come to a fork in the road ,take it ! When you come to a spoon in the road ,take that also ."

Last edited by Dodger; 11 Jan 2011 at 22:53.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11 Jan 2011
farqhuar's Avatar
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Oztralia
Posts: 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodger View Post
A good explanation Dodger - it sounds logical to me.

Sadly the emergency starting technique in the video will only get you so far down the road if you find yourself in my situation though. My battery died on the Khabarovsk - Chita corrugated gravel road. I had stopped 10 minutes earlier, started the bike without problem but stopped again to collect fresh water from a stream. As soon as I turned on the ignition I didn't even have enough power to turn the engine over (pressed the starter button and the LCD instruments faded to black). As it was late afternoon I pushed the bike off road, set up camp and waited till next morning to get back on the road. With a jump start the bike started instantly and I thought all was fine again - and it was, until approx. 100km down the road the motor just died and the instruments faded etc.. After flagging down the friendly local the bike would restart but die instantly the jumpers were removed. As soon as the battery was replaced the bike electrics ran perfectly again.

I can only assume the battery failure was due to the corrugations killing a cell as prior to that the battery had worked flawlessly for around 5 years in all road and traffic conditions. If it had simply been that the battery was getting old I would have expected some sort of early warning rather than an instant failure - as an example the bike had been shipped from Australia to Korea and had not been started for around 2 months - yet it had started instantly when I had uncrated it in Busan 2 weeks earlier.
__________________
Garry from Oz - powered by Burgman
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 11 Jan 2011
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Danmark
Posts: 334
Quote:
The problem is that with modern FI bikes, the FI shuts down if it is receiving < 11 volts from the battery - even though the alternator is pumping out 14+ volts
A little strange explanation but as you said, if the voltage is lower than 11V, the bike won't start and you'll never get 14V from the generator.

Otherwise the voltage on the battery will always be the same as on the generator or there is to high resistance in the cabling.
__________________
Poul
May you enjoy peace and good health !
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 13 Jan 2011
Registered Users
HUBB regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Wimborne - Dorset
Posts: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboCharger View Post
For the record. Urine is usually around PH 6.0 so it is acidic, this could actually work as urine is also distilled by the kidneys. Although urine has salts and is not demineralised so it is not ideal but still it's a good point. Has anyone used urine to recover a battery?

The trouble is if the batter is either sealed or gel then urine wouldn't be even a temporary solution.

Incidentally on this topic of Urine, it can be used to relieve pain from box jellyfish and bluebottle (also know as Portugese man-of-war) stings due to the high quantity of amonia.

references:
pH - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jellyfish Sting Treatment - Will urine relieve the pain of a jellyfish sting


Just the thought of battery acid on my bell-end is making me wince
__________________
I wish my wheelies were intentional...
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 13 Jan 2011
Registered Users
HUBB regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Wimborne - Dorset
Posts: 83
Ok, so acid burnt bell-ends aside, the question still remains..

You're out in the middle of nowhere, VRR Uckfayed, Battery Boiled...

Could you - theoretically - locate a 12v battery from somewhere, and hook it up to the bike, disconnect the alternator (on account that you don't want it to fry the replacement battery either) and run on battery power alone until you get somewhere you can source replacements?

G
__________________
I wish my wheelies were intentional...
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 13 Jan 2011
Moderated Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregorius View Post
Ok, so acid burnt bell-ends aside, the question still remains..

You're out in the middle of nowhere, VRR Uckfayed, Battery Boiled...

Could you - theoretically - locate a 12v battery from somewhere, and hook it up to the bike, disconnect the alternator (on account that you don't want it to fry the replacement battery either) and run on battery power alone until you get somewhere you can source replacements?

G
Yes, but it won't last long if the lights are on and some bikes have lights on all the time (N America).
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 13 Jan 2011
Registered Users
HUBB regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Wimborne - Dorset
Posts: 83
Yaaa agreed, I forgot to add I - hypothetically - would have disconnected all unecessary ancillaries too ...

G
__________________
I wish my wheelies were intentional...
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 Registered Users and/or Members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Melbourne motorbike rider Simon Buckley, 32, dies on fundraising trip Elmacaro Gone, but not Forgotten 4 18 Apr 2010 22:02
XT 600 dies on me.... kwagga Yamaha Tech 32 17 Feb 2010 22:04
tt600 runs,dies, then wont start mikes6084 Yamaha Tech 15 15 May 2009 13:00
1986 xt600 dies at above 4000 rpm when warm apmxt600 Yamaha Tech 1 7 Jul 2008 18:49

 
 
 

NEW! HU 2015 Motorcycle Adventure Travel Calendar is now available! Get your copy now for some terrific travel inspiration!

HUGE, 11.5 x 16.5 inches, beautifully printed in Germany on top quality stock! Photos are the winning images from over 600 entries in the 9th Annual HU Photo Contest!

Horizons Unlimited 2015 Motorcycle Adventure Travel Calendar.

"The calendar is magnificent!"

"I just wanted to say how much I'm loving the new, larger calendar!"

We share the profit with the winning photographers. YOU could be in the HU Calendar too - enter here!


HU DVD Autumn Special!

Take 40% off Road Heroes Part 1 until October 31 only!

Road Heroes features tales of adventure, joy and sheer terror by veteran travellers Peter and Kay Forwood (193 countries two-up on a Harley); Dr. Greg Frazier (5 times RTW); Tiffany Coates (RTW solo female); and Rene Cormier (University of Gravel Roads).

The first in an exciting new series, Road Heroes features tales of adventure, joy and sheer terror by veteran travellers."Inspiring and hilarious!"

"I loved watching this DVD!"

"Lots of amazing stories and even more amazing photographs, it's great fun and very inspirational."

"Wonderful entertainment!"

Check it out at the HU Store! Remember to use Coupon Code 'HEROES' on your order when you checkout.


Renedian Adventures


Renedian Adventures

What others say about HU...

"I just wanted to say thanks for doing this and sharing so much with the rest of us." Dave, USA

"Your website is a mecca of valuable information and the DVD series is informative, entertaining, and inspiring! The new look of the website is very impressive, updated and catchy. Thank you so very much!" Jennifer, Canada

"...Great site. Keep up the good work." Murray and Carmen, Australia

"We just finished a 7 month 22,000+ mile scouting trip from Alaska to the bottom of Chile and I can't tell you how many times we referred to your site for help. From how to adjust your valves, to where to stay in the back country of Peru. Horizons Unlimited was a key player in our success. Motorcycle enthusiasts from around the world are in debt to your services." Alaska Riders

contest pic

10th Annual HU Travellers Photo Contest is on now! This is an opportunity for YOU to show us your best photos and win prizes!

NEW! HU 2014 Adventure Travel T-shirts! are now available in several colors! Be the first kid on your block to have them! New lower prices on synths!

HU 2014 T-shirts now in!

Check out the new Gildan Performance cotton-feel t-shirt - 100% poly, feels like soft cotton!


What turns you on to motorcycle travel?


Global Rescue, WORLDwide evacuation services for EVERYONE

Global Rescue is the premier provider of medical, security and evacuation services worldwide and is the only company that will come to you, wherever you are, and evacuate you to your home hospital of choice. Additionally, Global Rescue places no restrictions on country of citizenship - all nationalities are eligible to sign-up!


New to Horizons Unlimited?

New to motorcycle travelling? New to the HU site? Confused? Too many options? It's really very simple - just 4 easy steps!

Horizons Unlimited was founded in 1997 by Grant and Susan Johnson following their journey around the world on a BMW R80 G/S motorcycle.

Susan and Grant Johnson Read more about Grant & Susan's story

Membership - help keep us going!

Horizons Unlimited is not a big multi-national company, just two people who love motorcycle travel and have grown what started as a hobby in 1997 into a full time job (usually 8-10 hours per day and 7 days a week) and a labour of love. To keep it going and a roof over our heads, we run events (22 this year!); we sell inspirational and informative DVDs; we have a few selected advertisers; and we make a small amount from memberships.

You don't have to be a Member to come to an HU meeting, access the website, the HUBB or to receive the e-zine. What you get for your membership contribution is our sincere gratitude, good karma and knowing that you're helping to keep the motorcycle travel dream alive. Contributing Members and Gold Members do get additional features on the HUBB. Here's a list of all the Member benefits on the HUBB.


Books & DVDs

amazon

All the best travel books and videos listed and often reviewed on HU's famous Books page. Check it out and get great travel books from all over the world.


Motorcycle Express for shipping and insurance!

Motorcycle Express

MC Air Shipping, (uncrated) USA / Canada / Europe and other areas. Be sure to say "Horizons Unlimited" to get your $25 discount on Shipping!
Insurance - see: For foreigners traveling in US and Canada and for Americans and Canadians traveling in other countries, then mail it to MC Express and get your HU $15 discount!




All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:44.