TUNIS, driving your own Car

[jabesi]

Hello everyone

We are planning a trip to Italy in October as a family and ending in Tunis taking the ferry from Palermo to Tunis. The idea is to leave the car there and come back for it at Christmas.

Aside from finding a garage that will store my car with certain guarantees, I would like to know if there is a page in my passport when I enter from Italy, they will also write down my car, and if that can be a problem later when I leave the country by plane.

In case they tell me something at the airport, can I say that it has broken? Or that it is in a workshop repairing it? Or that it sank in the desert?

how do you see the travel plan? its viable?

Thank you

[Rognv]

Originally Posted by jabesi

how do you see the travel plan? its viable?
Thank you

Am I the only one waiting for Michael to answer this question?


I was looking for the thread about Michaels story but couldn´t find it. You would understand my question if you read his posts about this topic. In short: Due to covid he had to leave his bike behind in Tunisia and it did cost him lots of money to get the bike back.

And this is something covid has teached us: suddenly plans can change and then it can be a real problem having a vehicle in another country on a temporary import.
No one did imagine covid would come up and suddenly many people where in trouble. Now it looks like everything is OK again but let´s not forget that covid isn´t over yet. We don´t know what will happen in autumn and winter.

And even without covid your plans could change due to various reasons. That´s something to think about before leaving your vehicle in a foreign country.


PS
Michael, no pun intended. I still feel sorry for the money you lost. When reading this post the first thing that came to mind was your story and the posts following it.

[Grant Johnson]

As you may deduce from Rognv's comments, a question I would always ask when contemplating leaving a vehicle in a foreign country, is "Can you afford to just walk away from it?" If so, fine be brave - if not, play safe and don't leave it.

[PanEuropean]

Originally Posted by Rognv

Am I the only one waiting for Michael to answer this question?

Hello from Michael...

Jabesi:

Don't even DREAM of leaving your vehicle behind in Tunisia. In fact, after my experience unintentionally leaving my motorcycle in Tunisia (I was riding there when the COVID pandemic started, and couldn't export the moto because no ferries or aircraft were operating), I suggest you don't even take your own vehicle there.

Read this post to learn what happened to me.

If you insist on going to Tunisia, leave your car in secure storage in Sicily (note "secure storage") and rent a car in Tunisia. The money you save not transporting your own car back and forth on the ferry will offset the majority of the car rental fee - perhaps all of it, if your planned visit to Tunisia is only for a week or so.

Although I enjoyed my time touring the country and thought that the people in Tunisia were very pleasant folks, I don't think 2022 is the year to go to Tunisia, even without a vehicle. The country is currently operating under a state of emergency, a referendum on a new constitution was held just earlier this week, and the government is flat broke and seeking IMF help. I fear that the security situation in the country could degrade at any time, although I sincerely hope that it does not. Read this story published by Reuters News earlier today for more information about the instability the country is facing.

Go to Morocco instead, it is much more tourist-oriented and culturally very similar to Tunisia. Morocco also has a more stable government and despite the hit that the tourism sector has taken in the past 2 years, Morocco is in financially good shape. Alternatively, extend the amount of time you spend in Sicily, or hop a ferry from Sicily over to Sardinia and explore Sardinia instead of Tunisia.

Inch'Allah, maybe things will get better in Tunisia next year or in 2024. But even if that happens, don't ever leave a vehicle behind in Tunisia. Trust me about that.

Michael

[jabesi]

Thanks for the info,

I'm sorry about the motorcycle, with a car I suppose the expenses would be even higher.

The reason for the pandemic was exceptional, but in Africa who knows what can happen!

For my day to day I do not need the car, but I would not like to lose it or have to pay an extra cost to bring it back to Spain

I am considering other possibilities but the ferry options are not very good with my schedule,

I think the border with Algeria is closed for foreigners with a visa included...

Could someone confirm it for me or give me a contact where I can ask?

Thanks

[PanEuropean]

Originally Posted by jabesi

I think the border with Algeria is closed for foreigners with a visa included...

I can't give you any current information about the road border crossings between Tunisia and Algeria, but I can give you some historical background that might help you judge how to proceed.

Tourism has never been a priority in Algeria, nor has it ever been a significant source of income in Algeria. Algeria makes its money from oil and gas, and the government's highest priority is to protect the oil and gas industry from disruption. I was based in Algeria about 20 years ago, as an aircraft pilot flying in support of oil and gas operations, and security was very tight - I never once saw a tourist during the year I was in the country, and road travel between regions of the country was severely restricted.

Tourism is (was?) a big part of Tunisia's economy, but all the tourist income is generated in the east coast regions of the country, from Tunis down to Djerba. There was a little bit of tourist activity - mostly 'explorers' - along the north coast towards Algeria, but not much. No tourists of any kind entered Tunisia overland from Algeria - Algerians could not afford to vacation in Tunisia, and the very few that could afford international travel would fly, not travel by road.

Tunisia has significant concerns about anti-government activity along their western border with Algeria - see the map at the UK Foreign Office Travel Advisory for Tunisia. This is a long-standing concern that has been around for decades. Hence the Tunisian government is not really interested in having an open border with Algeria - they see no benefit arising from an open border, but they do see lots of potential problems with an open border.

The Algerians have no interest of any kind in having an open border with Tunisia - although it probably would not present a security concern to them, it doesn't offer them any benefits either. Algeria's border with Morocco on the other side (Western side) of Algeria is totally closed, and keeping their eastern border with Tunisia closed gives Algeria very tight control over who enters their country... the only ways in are by air or by sea. Their southern border is effectively closed off by the desert.

What all that boils down to is that neither Tunisia or Algeria see any benefit to their countries associated with free travel across their borders. The only folks who are interested in crossing between the two countries are either "bad guys" or the occasional particularly intrepid tourist, such as you or I.

I hope this helps you better understand the issues affecting this border crossing.

Michael

[levelo]

Michael,

You are painting a pretty bleak picture of Tunisia.
We know you had a hell of a time getting out when the pandemic hit and that it cost you dearly in the end.
The border is porous indeed and there are jihadists operating out of a mountainous area straddling it but this is pretty much the only no go area in the country. It is curtained off and shouldn't put anyone off from visiting.
Tunisia has its problems, but so far it is safe.
Lots of Algerians used to drive across the border to vacation in Hammamet and other resorts on the coast. Tunisia was to middle class Algerians what Turkey is to Iranians : a relaxed place to unwind for a few days when Europe remains a distant dream.

L.

[PanEuropean]

Originally Posted by levelo

You are painting a pretty bleak picture of Tunisia.

Not on purpose, and certainly not because I have any grudge against Tunisia.

The unfortunate reality is that the probability of encountering "problems" in Tunisia in 2022 is a heck of a lot higher than it was prior to 2020. Politically, the country is unstable, and financially, the country is in deep trouble. Neither of those conditions existed prior to 2020.

Originally Posted by levelo

Tunisia has its problems, but so far it is safe.

It is safe for tourists today, if by safe you mean no risk of physical aggression, robbery, that kind of thing. It's not safe from capricious government dictates, such as the problems I had with the customs fees imposed on me when I exported my motorcycle. If there is any kind of political uprising in the future, which is something that unfortunately cannot be ruled out, this probably won't affect the physical safety of tourists (provided they stay in their hotel), but it will likely affect their ability to move around freely.

If the original poster had written "I'd like to take an all-inclusive flight and hotel package to a nice resort in Djerba", I would have said "By all means, go ahead and do it without worries". But that's not what the OP was planning to do. He wanted to take his own vehicle there, and then leave the vehicle behind in the country for 3 months or so. For reasons I explained above, now is not the time to consider doing that.

Michael

[Chris Scott]

As far as I know there has never been a Customs policy where you could leave a vehicle in Tunisia and leave the country, as you can do in Morocco with easily acquired paperwork. Covid made an exception to that rule all around the world. Some had no problems retrieving their vehicle, as we read, some did.
Covid aside, in my experience, to pretend your vehicle is broken down or abandoned in the desert won’t work in North African countries, even decades before digital records were kept.
That is what the TVIP is all about (a less strict version of a Carnet): making sure the vehicle is not sold on the side.

I think the border with Algeria is closed for foreigners with a visa included...
Could someone confirm it for me or give me a contact where I can ask?

Pre-Covid the border has never been closed, but for foreigners some crossings are easier or more used than others.
In the good years (pre-1990; 2000- ~2011) many desert overlanders came to North Africa via Tunisia and used Taleb Larbi out of Nefta, but as these days you need an agency ‘invite’ and escort in Algeria at at least €100/day (can depend on nationality if staying in the north).
Levelo sums it up well.

Some Algerian agency contacts here: https://sahara-overland.com/algeria-3/

[levelo]

Granted Michael, I also wouldn't leave a vehicle behind in Tunisia. It is just asking for trouble.

I assume you were based somewhere in the south when you were working in Algeria. This is no holiday turf.
A steady stream of Algerians have been visiting Tunisia every year, either to visit relatives or relax on the coast in the north and east. The figure is pretty high, it's in the hundreds of thousands.
Since the closure of the Moroccan border back in 1994 this is the only option left for them.
Algerians have felt trapped in their own land since March 2020. The authorities have sealed all borders off ( the decision was obviously not entirely health-related ) and lots of folks were suffocating. Thus the reopening is great news for those who badly need a change of air.
The ' bad guys ' have never needed official border posts to travel back and forth

The changes initiated after the Revolution and the demise of the Ben Ali regime are not settled yet.
It certainly feels like Tunisia is going backwards at the moment but the civil society is quite strong and people are starting to react peacefully.

I don't see Tunisia collapsing any time soon.

Levelo.

[PanEuropean]

Originally Posted by levelo

I assume you were based somewhere in the south when you were working in Algeria. This is no holiday turf.

I was based (at different times) in Hassi Messaoud, In Salan, Ouargla, Ghardaia, and In Amenas. You are correct, none of these are "holiday turf" for a normal package tourist, but they are in exactly the desert locations that many in the Horizons Unlimited community want to visit.

Originally Posted by levelo

I don't see Tunisia collapsing any time soon.

I don't either, I think it is a resilient society. But, as one would say in the aviation industry, there is a significant risk of unforecasted turbulence on the route ahead.

Michael

[jabesi]

Good morning,


In Tunis the idea in principle is to go down this matmata-chenini then go to Ksar Ghline, cross Chott El Jerid and go up the mountain oasis road.

Do you think I need to contact an agency and have an escort?

The idea was to go back through Algeria, to visit Timgad and Djmila, which we couldn't visit before. There is no ferry from Alicante, nor Almeria. There is only ferry to Valencia,

Would it be possible to cross through "bou chebka" with a visa already obtained from Spain? and without agency or they will ask us to hire an agency

In 2009 we went to Tioundof and in 2010 to Tamanrrasset and Djanet. We went with an Algerian friend who acted as an interpreter for us and we were able to pass, without an escort and without an agency, we only had problems at the last control before entering Tiundouf, although in the end we managed to pass, the rest with a little words and patience we managed to pass ...so I think it was more of a control measure like in Western Sahara than really a requirement, but this was 12 years ago and the world has changed a lot since then

Thanks

[Chris Scott]

As far as I understood, in Tunisia there was never a need to organise an escort way in advance (like Algeria). I assumed you got to a checkpoint and they say you can't go ahead without an escort / permit. Best to ask around in Touzeur where there is/was lots of desert tourism.

(fyi: I remember seeing a vehicle trapped in the salt-mud of Chott el Djerid a few metres from the road and thinking, I don't fancy that. But maybe like Lac Iriki in Morocco, there is a marked route.)

In my experience, at the Algerian border you need your visa of course, but for Brits at least you cannot get that visa without the 'certificat d'hebergement' (proof of lodgings).
An agency escort trounces a CdH and, as we were heading for the deep south where - like your Algerian friend – the agency guys helped negotiate sticky road checkpoints, gendarmerie restrictions (also only on highways) as well as offered genuine desert guiding know-how, they were worth paying for as I was with a group.
The escort would present an 'Ordre de Mission' [permit] at a road checkpoint and, depending on the mood of the guard, we'd pass through.

Were I with chums I might try the visa app with a hotel reservation.
They can only reject it.

Again, in my experience consulates as well as certain border posts get used to a routine:
Desert bound Brit applying for tourist visa in London consulate? Agency invite must be faxed direct with route.
Brits then rocking up at Taleb Larbi (post 2003). Where is your agency escort?
Checkpoint in the populated north? Don't know but I assume they will never have seen a foreign car (unescorted) and will presume if you got this far you can carry on to where you are going. Or they may be scared of getting in trouble and play it by the book. Then the gendarmerie (a bit like republican guard) may spot you and want to throw their weight around [by escorting you across a given region, lights flashing].

I think Spanish overlanders are quite a new thing in Algeria.
Spanish visa experience could be quite different, but as you will know Alg has become politically less stable in the last couple of years. I don't know if that affects tourist visas.

As you will know, post 2003 mass kidnappings and 2013 oil base attack, the Algerians do not want the embarrassment of kidnapped or shot-up foreigners, be they desert tourists with relatively slack protection (underpaid agency escort), or very heavily protected and restricted foreign oil industry workers who, as we read, had a totally different experience of Algeria.

I assume you went to Tindouf on a humanitarian mission, not as regular tourists?
That has long been an exception to get to that corner of Alg, especially with Spanish Polisario support.

Post Arab Spring things became more restricted in Alg, certainly in the deep south. Last I heard no off-road, even with escort, except Assekrem track and parts of Illizi wilaya (Djanet etc, which we did in 2018 with a well-connected German agency).

The key as always is to get the visa by whatever means. You may have to specify a border entry point and date. As said in my other post, I would not pick Bou Chebka. You might waltz through or they may freak out.

[jabesi]

Thanks Chris,
I don't exactly remember that they stopped us in the north, but they did stare at us, wanting to stop us, I really don't remember seeing other foreign cars, only in the south a Swiss raid

Regarding Algeria, the Taleb Harbi border crossing, I think it is very far south and I think they would not let me pass without an agency/escort,
what do you think?
On the other hand, the further north I think it will be easier and I will not need an agency: if I rule out Bou Chebka, which one would you try: Ras el Ayoun, Kaalat Sinan or Hedadda? Which is faster, easier and less dangerous?

We went to Tindouf independently (although we had authorization from the Polisario Front), at the last control they did not let us pass...

Regarding Tunis, I am going with the family, the idea is to go from Douz to Tozouer along the road marked P16, with google map it seems that it is paved, is that correct or is it a dirt track?

thanks

[Chris Scott]

I have heard of one or two people getting through Taleb years ago without escorts meeting them (and staying in the north) plus we hear these borders have been closed for 2 years so maybe people have forgotten the rules with foreigners and you could slip through.
Showing a ferry ticket out of Algiers or Oran could help.

I don't know any of the other crossings. I would not bank on any of them being easy or fast. I would avoid Tebessa area. This could be old info and it does seem that ambushes etc in the northeast DZ (the most active area, afaik) are less frequent, but that could be a Covid thing.

P16 is the 'RN16' on other maps - all sealed like you say and the normal road to Touzeur across the Chott.