Camelling

[beastasided]

Tunisia-Libya-Egypt , Sahara overland-not motorized , that´s my new project .

IF I am to do this is by walking-beast assisted .
Major problem I see now is Libyan visa and extended stay (..or what ?)..
But visa etc is my own business , I´m already working on my options .

Subjects :

1- Tunisia-Libya border crossing : If I´m heading towards Sahara core , I would prefer do the crossing somewhere near El Khadra-Ghadames . Is that possible ?

2- As mentioned , a camel is needed , where to buy it ? (..$ how much ?)
(..to be bought preferably somewhere near El Khadra-Ghadames since I´m carrying some 30kg personal gear with me) first treak Ghadames-Ghat (...) .

3- I understand some you guys have Saharian treak experience with camels.. I would really appreciate all inputs you may provide on camel management etc.
Ciao

[Chris Scott]

I would really appreciate all inputs you may provide on camel management

If you mean solo then that's a lot to learn on the hoof.
To avoid a probable shafting and other unpleasantries, much better to hire a small camel crew who can supply and tend to the beasts.

Realistically it's hard to think you'll get south to Ghat, but try to avoid the Signed-in-Blood Battalion and other similar entities on the way.

https://www.rewardsforjustice.net/en...elmokhtar.html Since killed in Libya

[andrasz]

Not trying to put you off (I'm sure circumstances will do their best...), but IMHO even in happier times the Libya - Egypt route is perhaps not the best choice for a more extended camel trek.

The unsupported range of an average camel is about 250-300 kilometres over a 7-8 day period (limited by water, not food). Specially seasoned long range camels have an endurance of up to 10 days and 350-400 kilometres, but since the Toyotas have become the principal beast of burden accross the Sahara, such animals are very had to come by, and unless you are an expert you would not be able to tell the difference. Unless you do the trek in the North, you will find much longer waterless stretches - thus you need to arrange motorised support. To compound the logistics problem, the only legal crossing point between Libya and Egypt is at Sollum on the Mediterranean coast...

Should the climate improve in both fine lands, joining a camel Caravan from Mellit in the Darfur to Kufra must be an interesting experience.

[KevOK]

Hi Guys ,

I'm in libya right now, fantastic people and place,

I just put a post on my blog about it. Need any info JUst ask

Libya | Explore Planet Earth

[beastasided]

Hi Chris , thanks..
well yes is solo plan , no crew hire , no motorized vehicles of any sort .

As I was saying first intended treak Ghadames-Ghat (not south Ghat) .
I understand this is a 600 km way .
Thanks andrasz for the camel performance info , that´s just what I need .
Camel management is something I´m trying to fully understand..

If camel can make 10 day walking (35+ km/day) without water that means I need to bring some for both.. without counting I may be lucky finding someone out there.. but as I understand Ghadames-Ghat is not that isolated road, mh ?

I saw old italian info Sahara forums: Pista Ghadames - Ghat

Beside , thanks kevok to offer your on-the-spot advice , where are you about ?
In fact , at the end , single arabs are as good as anybody , some would say maybe better than average , and Libya I´m sure is beautiful country , Sahara .

Major challenge is Libya extended visa.. I cannot do all that trek then East etc in one month , can I ?
But what about cross from south Tunisia to Libya ?
Where to buy that camel ?
ciao

[andrasz]

If you're as determined as you sound you are, the person you need to talk to is Arita Baaijens (www.aritabaaijens.nl). While she is no longer into long-range camel trekking, she is probably the most experienced person alive with whom you could have an informed conversation.

From what I know, unsupported camel trek beyond a distance of 300-400 km without water is pretty much impossible. You need to plan a route where you may find reliable water every 250-300 kms to be on the safe side. Note that long distance camel travel is limited by your speed, not that of the camel. You need to walk with the animals, which only carry your water and food for both you. If you want to ride, range will drop considerably.

[Chris Scott]

If camel can make 10 day walking (35+ km/day) without water that means I need to bring some for both.. without counting I may be lucky finding someone out there.. but as I understand Ghadames-Ghat is not that isolated road, mh ?

According to my old book, the L2 piste Ghadames to Serdeles (aka: Al Uweinat) is 598km with water at KM405 and maybe KM167. There must be other wells off the piste but nearby; that is another reason why a local guide would be so useful.
Since that route was logged I've heard the piste no longer dips briefly into Algeria (near In Amenas…) but stays in the dunes. Following the gas plant raid in January it's hard to think you passage down here will not attract attention.

As for camel autonomy and range, I believe this topic is a little misunderstood. Although 35km/day sounds about right once you're fit, what a solo tourist can manage along an unfamiliar piste, and what hardened and motivated salt caravaneers will endure on a known, guide-led route while travelling from dawn into the night and eating on the move are not the same.

Another thing that's not appreciated is that although camels may not need to drink for a few days in winter (or at all if not working), they do need to graze every night for some metabolising reasons. On our camel treks (harder terrain than L2 with initially heavy loads; 2+ cams per person) it has been the herbage that governed the overnight stops, not the waterholes. The temperature, terrain and initial loads will also have an effect on camel range.
As you may know, on the flat sand then dunes of the Bilma salt caravan route there are no more than two wells once in the Tenere, but AFAIK they carry enough straw feed for the whole 600km crossing and back, after 'force drinking' the herd out of Agadez. Elsewhere, hobbled camels are allowed to wander off overnight in search of grazing, and it is tracking and finding them each morning that takes skill and experience and time. And that is in an area where the crew know the grazing patterns. If you don't know where you are or where a camel might wander looking for a feed, it could take you half a day to track them down (as we have found). I must say the risks of this practise has always puzzled me, but clearly it's preferable to lashing them all to a tree and hand feeding them gruel or straw (which of course must be carried).
So herbage (carrying or finding) is as important for camels as water is for you.

From what I have observed in about 10 accumulated weeks of camel trekking, managing camels is a whole lot of work and isn't something I'd like to undertake alone. IMO no local would either, unless it was a speedy, short range sprint.

In my Sahara book there's a 30-page section on camelling by three experienced contributors: BYO/DIY in Mauritania, or hiring locally with crew in Mali, Niger, Sudan and Sinai.

Ch

[priffe]

In the present situation, with no government control in SW Libya, I suppose you could make it from Algeria into Libya, if you made arrangements with local 'authorities'
and provided the Algies would let you out (or you could sneak out)
recent reports indicate that Ghadames is unsafe and further south isn't any better

A swedish bloke tried marching with three camels the other direction four years ago.
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...atlantic-49257
a total amateur, he managed to make it to Tunisia from the Red Sea.
his original plan was going into Algeria at Ghat, which would have been near impossible even then, continuing west to Mauretania and the Atlantic
anyway in Tunisia he was arrested and spent time in jail over false accusations of 'smuggling' his camels into the country
so that was the end of that
There's also Paula Constant who tried going west to east
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...est-east-50335

[priffe]

A lightly guarded money truck was held up near Sirte the other day - with 54 M$US (!).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-24721776
+in one week americans kidnapped an Al Qaeda leader and the prime minister was kidnapped by militias

[beastasided]

Originally Posted by andrasz

..the person you need to talk to is Arita Baaijens (www.aritabaaijens.nl). While she is no longer into long-range camel trekking, she is probably the most experienced person alive with whom you could have an informed conversation..

I´m back -first- to thank you andrasz for such tremendous contact information you gave me .
I contacted Arita right away , she is gentle person , she immediately understood my speech..
to make it short . we´ll hopefully meet at white desert - Egypt in the following weeks .

That´s it , for the moment , for me , no Algeria or Libya . At least for the moment .

I , as well , wanted to inform this forum about London explorers society seminar on 15 to 17 Nov weekend..
so , for those who enjoy the theory of it , here : Explore - expedition & fieldwork planning seminar
Arita is going to be talking there . Camel desert treks .

Hey amigos , I´ll try to stay in touch, tell my stories , or else see yah by Sahara dunes . I´ll be there .
ciao

[andrasz]

Brilliant, I will be in London the same week-end, will try to squeeze it in.

[pbekkerh]

Here's a woman that crossed Australia with camels. She worked with camels and can probably be contacted.

Tracks: Robyn Davidson: 9780679762874: Amazon.com: Books

[moissessadam]

it's very amazing moment that you are cameling

[Thimba]

Originally Posted by andrasz

If you're as determined as you sound you are, the person you need to talk to is Arita Baaijens (www.aritabaaijens.nl). While she is no longer into long-range camel trekking, she is probably the most experienced person alive with whom you could have an informed conversation.

She starred in a series now showing on Dutch television called O'Hanlon's Heroes, in which adventure traveller and writer Redmond O'Hanlon follows in the tracks of 19th century explorers.



Happy trails,

Gee