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  #31  
Old 5 Oct 2011
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I was tempted by santana but the service support is limited and reasle in this country not great. thats the problem, my H60 is now getting difficult to get some parts for, wheras you could build a landrover pretty much from scratch if you wanted to. the availability of parts and extras is a major bonus for LR. My H60 had got to the stage of spending serious money to keep it fit for another 20 years. I thought long and hard on deciding wether to refurb the cruiser of buy an older landie (I wouldn't touch anything from 98 on)and spend the money refurbing that instead, purely because of parts availability. I've owned a 101, a series 3 88, a 90 and a 130 but in the end it had to be the 'cruiser because non of the others can come close in terms of reliability and strength, so now the cruiser has gone in for a 2 year 10 grand rebuild which will hopefully see it fit for another 20 years, parts permitting!!!
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  #32  
Old 5 Oct 2011
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The G Wagen PUR (Pure) is supposed to be a back to basics model, cloth seats, rubber mats etc. Nice in theory, based on a 30yr old design, de blinged, but take a look. It’s still crammed full of electronics, engine a common rail diesel which has a reputation for not liking any sub standard fuel and price tag to make your eyes water.
I guess any manufacturer is stuck with engine management to deal with emission legislation.
So even if they want to get back to basics they are stuffed. (not sure MB really did of course. Build something with less and charge more. Nice work if you can get itJ
At least all the electronics are all together in a water proof box in the cabin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9E0LOLOLVw
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  #33  
Old 5 Oct 2011
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yes, got to agree. the march of the green brigade has scuppered any possibility of basic engines in europe now. doesn't explain the electronic low range selection and diff locks though. personally I prefer hoofing great mechanical levers!
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  #34  
Old 6 Oct 2011
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Moggy and Russ are right - they are hamstrung by emissions legislation. But some of the stuff like electric diff lock actuators IS overengineering rather than mandated by legislation. And I'm also with Gipper - Landrover should do what Toyota did with the 100 for Europe/NA and the 105 for ROW.

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Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
Yeah LR are in a difficult position, they have to sell vehicles in North America and Europe to help cover develpoment costs and 'improve the marques image' so any engine has to meet emissions legislation on both continents, be smooth refined, powerful and fuel effecient.

Yet for 3rd world use, we need simple reliable under stressed engines that run on crap diesel and can be bush repaired without a laptop/technician

On several occasions when working for Land Rover UK as an employee I suggested they make a 'bling' new defender for NAmerica/Europe markets on a modified T5 chassis with air/independent suspension, CRD engines and all the electronic gubbins - and a coiler with live axles, a proper 3 litre or more non CRD engine with minimal electrics for ROW (with some build quality please)

I get thoroughly annoyed with LR's insistance of using 2.5L or smaller engines in Defender/Defender replacement - start with a decent sized understressed bloody engine and make it bombproof.

Im sure LR will follow the herd and produce a plastic POS that sells well - and Id buy one here in Canada to replace our ageing gas guzzling Discovery, but I will keep the 300Tdi Defender for overlanding.......
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  #35  
Old 6 Oct 2011
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Originally Posted by ilesmark View Post
Moggy and Russ are right - they are hamstrung by emissions legislation. But some of the stuff like electric diff lock actuators IS overengineering rather than mandated by legislation. And I'm also with Gipper - Landrover should do what Toyota did with the 100 for Europe/NA and the 105 for ROW.
I’m guessing the real reason is that those touch pad actuators and the associated electronic logic are actually cheaper to manufacture that the nice basic pull levers for the diff locks that my 1986 G Wagen had. The mechanical mechanism for hi – low range was also a really nice piece of engineering. You engaged low or high range but the mechanism wasn’t actually directly connected to the transfer box. It would only move ratio’s when the syncro was ready.
I also assume that the auto box on the PUR is electronically controlled. Worse than that it will be integrated in to the engine management. So a sensor failure/poor connection/broken wire on the gearbox will also affect the engine and vice versa. Wonder if it’s CAN bus as well
Not bothered really, I’ll never own one
Russ
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  #36  
Old 6 Oct 2011
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New Defender

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Originally Posted by ilesmark View Post
Maybe the way forward after the new low-fat decafeinneated plastic and electronic Defender-lite comes out is for people who would have bought traditional Defenders to go for Santanas instead.
Sorry but that thing is so ugly I'd buy a .......... most anything less ugly than that!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #37  
Old 22 Feb 2012
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All-new Defender 2015 to be built in India

Hmmmm.
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  #38  
Old 22 Feb 2012
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Personally I have no problem with the new vehicle. It's the name which 'upsets' me.

I feel that the 'Defender' climbed onto it's death bed around about TD5 time and has been declining ever since.

The name 'Defender' envokes many images and IMHO should remain true to the roots of Land Rover. The heritage of such an important marque is a strong atraction to buyers who, despite buying a bling machine, will ocasionally dream and picture themselves on the camel trophy or driving across the serengeti.
With the current Defender, LR can still show images of charity relief vehicles and expedition trucks and claim a (albeit tenuos) link. Similar to how sports cars are sold of the basis of rally or touring cars (to which they bare on a passing resemblance).

However this new vehicle has stronger links to the 'new generation' of Freelanders, Evokes, RRS, etc. and is squarely aimed at the 'lifestyle' market with surf boards and ethnic bracelets.

The 'Defender' is dead, the name should die with it. Name the new car something else such as the Land Rover Organic or Range Rover Fair Trade and let the Defender rest in peace.

With the apparent demise (so I've been told) of the LC Troopie and the continued electronification of LR products it does make me wonder what overlanders and charities (without the reources of a military MT section) will use as a vehicle in the future once all the current 300 TDis and LC 80s have finally gone to the great scap yard in the sky
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  #39  
Old 22 Feb 2012
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Recessed door handles

It at least it seems to have gone back to recessed door handles.
Drive at 45 degrees done a metre deep ravine with the body resting on the mud and you'll realise why the series and early 90/110 door handles were better.
Not that I believe the new one will take that sort of abuse, if you've seen a propshaft ripped apart by cut hay you'll realise the folly of wires controlling stuff underneath.
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  #40  
Old 23 Feb 2012
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If mini mokes are anything to go by , when they finally retire the current defender , you will be able to buy a copy from china !!
They do a mini moke for approx £5000 including a diesel engine option , have a look on alibaba , s/h mokes are selling for circa £8k ?

I agree defender name should be retired as its not a dc100 , unless they are having second thoughts which from some reports eg separate chassis are suggesting
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  #41  
Old 23 Feb 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
No surprises there, given the TATA ownership. Still makes me wonder why they can't keep making the existing one there as well, for those that want it.

Why do makers of cars / every other type of manufactured good imaginable keep changing things just for the sake of it? If people like the old model, keep making it and let those who want the new model have that instead. LC 80 series, Citroen DS, Golf GTI mark 1, you name it - the list goes on and on.

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Originally Posted by tacr2man View Post
If mini mokes are anything to go by , when they finally retire the current defender , you will be able to buy a copy from china !!
Interesting - wonder what the quality is like though.

In the meantime (as long as the factory doesn't get blown up by the Israelis / Americans) you can get your Defenders from Iran - http://www.lr-mad.co.uk/en/morattab
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  #42  
Old 28 Feb 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilesmark View Post
Interesting - wonder what the quality is like though.
I'm a Moke owner. In fact it is my favourite vehicle and I hope to use it for an overland journey someday.

I always describe a Moke as the offspring of an illicit affair between a Mini and a Land Rover.

The quality of real Mokes was never that flash and they rust like hell. So I was excited by the prospect of new shells being available.

Unfortunately these Chinese copies (we call them Chokes) are fairly poor quality. Many of the bolt-on parts fit poorly and some of the early bodies had a twist in them. The paint coverage is poor in hidden areas (just like a real one was!!) Most of the bits you would expect to interchange with a genuine Moke, such as the windscreen frame or fuel tank, don't interchange at all. They have less strength in the floors and sills than a genuine Moke due to the deletion of various strengthening ribs and box sections. Yet somehow they weigh 150-200kg more due to use of heavier steel in other places. That might not sound much, but given a stock Moke is around 600kg it amounts to a difference of around 33%.

In this country at least, Chokes don't meet the registration laws, so they can only be registered illegally with an identity swap. (ie: Take a chassis number from a dead Moke and stamp it on a new Chinese body) The authorities have figured this out now, so a couple were rejected for registration already. I believe the situation is similar in the UK, but in the US they can now be legally registered as a kit car.

Anyway, back to Defenders.

I've always admired the old Defender and have often considered owning one. But the new one leaves me completely cold.

Unfortunately the nanny-state world we live in demands Airbags, ABS, ever-increasing emissions controls and crumple zones. All stuff that is very hard to engineer into an older design. As the market for that design dwindles the manufactures stop investing in it and eventually another great car is consigned to history.

Cheers,
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