Well the Morons Messiah (Boris) is a historian, that's why he's able to claim he wasn't racist apparently. So I'm sure he's well versed in these tactics. Unfortunately they do work, our government is chosen by news paper editors/owners.

In the end it all does end up being an emotional decision. This thread has deteriorated into lengthy essays spouting so called facts which apart from the odd exception are just intended to support someone's bias mostly "I don't like Johnny foreigner and can someone turn up the volume on Rule Britannia" I may respect the views if they were honest rather than hiding behind "facts".

Does anyone get the irony of posting multiple bar charts, pie charts and figures whilst then claiming every single forecast / economist is 100% wrong?

Anyway the sun's shining and I've better things to do than reading / posting on thisbeer

Yip...the number of 'experts' on the hubb is impressive. They know everything. And what they don't know ain't worth knowing. I stand by my original view about Brexit, politics and all that stuff....it's all a load of bollox being spouted by twats.

On a sidenote, that Donald Trump fella...it looks like he's in the 'final' of the Presidents Cup tournament. Something tells me that the phrase 'God Save America' was invented for this exact moment! :thumbdown:

One thing I'm surprised hasn't come up in this discussion, considering it's a bike related forum, is what effect will EU regulations have on motorcycles in the future?

There's already been discussion of type approval scheme being extended into the aftermarket, and future regulations making non genuine parts illegal to supply and fit, along with maintenance being done by main dealers only.

Not only would this effectively kill off a lot of small businesses over night and hand over a monopoly to the manufacturers, your biking costs would most likely go through the roof.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good point - and this is where I came in on post #594. To save you searching here is the post again:-

was quite taken with Triumph's new Thruxton R and was in the mood to splash some cash on a sweet weekend bike such as this. Reading the test of the T120 in Bike magazine the journalist commented on the usual (new bike) poor fuelling caused by meeting EU stage 4 regulations. An easy fix with the right software however, the marketing director was quoted saying the ECU has anti-tamper software mandated by the EU making this impossible.


As most bikers will know, the EU five years ago attempted legislation to criminalise us for making the slightest modification to our own bikes/property, institute a surveillance regime compelling dealers and their mechanics to report us to the authorities and implement draconian penalties such as confiscation of our bikes for transgressions. Needles to say, the UK would gold plate such legislation, as is their way.


Happily, organised protests managed to water down the legislation and limit it to smaller bikes.


Confused, I wrote to the Triumph director quoted and good enough, received the following reply within 24 hours:

Dear Mr xxx


Thank you for making contact and raising the issue of anti-tamper as featured in Bike Magazine. I must also point out that I am marketing manager and not director as quoted!


Triumph ride by wire motorcycles do come with anti-tamper feature, this has been introduced by Triumph ahead of EU legislation coming in. You are correct, it is not mandated at present.


I hope this helps


Kind regards


Haydn

From the horses mouth - clearly, Triumph are ahead of the game and know what's coming - there is a whole load of controversial, unpopular legislation being withheld until after the referendum for obvious reasons. Sadly for Triumph (and me) I will not be buying a new Triumph. The only way we can avoid such draconian legislation affecting us here in the UK, improve our bikes and freedoms is to vote leave.



PS - as a man of my word, just paid the deposit on a new Harley Roadster for farting about on. I'm just now searching for a Thundermax ECU to fit to it :scooter:

Even if we leave I doubt manufacturers will have one model for 'us' and one model for 'them'..

Hopefully though, if someone wants to make a workaround, it wont be illegal.

Im back to voting out.. :/

Sent from my G7-L01 using Tapatalk

I'm tempted to vote to stay in. I'm also tempted to vote to leave. It's a fine line at the moment. I could go either way.
As an expert on 'Couldn'tgiveatossology' my professional opinion is that it doesn't really matter which way I vote, so on that basis I won't bother. There you go, my mind is now made up. A simple non-scientific thought process has brought my dilemma to a swift conclusion :thumbup1:

Yep. A genuine concern.

Massively !! Considering ive Just opened a business doing just that..

Sent from my G7-L01 using Tapatalk

except 90% of the media bullshit about the EU banning aftermarket parts and modifications was just that................bullshit

Somewhere in the interwebs there's even an EU press statement telling them it was bullshit doh

Correct. Old news, if you can call this stuff news.

More lies and propaganda

Some Tory politician even claimed he'd scuppered it all on his own. Just as well we have such heroes protecting us

Sleep easy Ted, there's bigger things to worry about. Like Trump declaring war on NATO :-)

If that cock womble gets in power I'll give it six months before he's either assassinated or he starts WW3.

Sent from my G7-L01 using Tapatalk

Hardly.

How can you say that when the marketing manager of Triumph motorcycles himself says the contrary and gives the reason? I even reproduced his letter.




EU Type Approval and Market Surveillance Regulation COM(2010)542.
All new bikes over 125cc get ABS under the regulation approved by MEPs. Smaller machines have combined brakes instead.
The anti-tampering measures will prevent modifications of bikes which fall under the 47bhp limit for new ‘A2’ licence holders from2013. Bikes will get on-board diagnostic systems capable of registering modifications as faults to be rectified by a mechanic.



Further...
The European Parliament 20th November 2012 – The proposal – Approval and market surveillance of two – or three-wheel vehicles and quadricycles – was debated and then approved by the European Parliament by huge majority (643 in favour, 16 against).



The Commission originally proposed to equip all L-category vehicles (so everything on two or three wheels with an engine) "with designated measures to prevent tampering of a vehicle’s powertrain" (laid down in Article 18). Before, similar rules had only been in place for speed and power restricted mopeds, scooters and light motorcycles up to an engine capacity of 125 cm³. The inclusion of all kinds of motorcycles into Article 18 was justified by the Commission by environmental and safety concerns.


Speculation is still rife as to what precisely these “designated measures to prevent tampering” will include as the Commission intends to develop them as part of a delegated act which has still not been drafted. Riders are therefore rightly worried of a scenario where manufacturers have to build motorcycles in a way that prevents the end user from any kind of modification. See Triumph's response in their letter to me.


Lobbying by the likes of M.A.G. were partially successful in limiting some of these proposals to 125cc bikes i.e. ABS but the “designated measures to prevent tampering” clause still pertains to all bikes – including yours.


It was subsequently revealed that Bosch A.G. had heavily “lobbied” the commission to introduce such specious legislation, Bosch A.G. being the principle maker and patent holder of ABS systems for motorcycles.


One chilling, potential clause the M.A.G. identified in the regulations was a system to be built into the ECU that will monitor and report their riding, their speed etc leading to enforcement agencies being able to access any data for prosecution.


Of course if manufacturers want to equip bikes with systems that do this then that is down to market forces and whether riders will buy such bikes. As I indicated, I avoided the Triumph and bought Harley.



However, you can avoid any of this bullshit simply by putting your X in the appropriate box and VOTE LEAVE.

See if this changes your mind:-

Last Wednesday night, the European Union’s Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee quietly passed a chilling piece of legislation. It calls for every one of the 500 million people who live in the EU to be given a ‘European Taxpayer Identification Number’, or EUTIN for short.

The remainiacs will say this is a scare story but there is only one reason the commission wants you on its tax books and we all know what it is; we already have the "without representation" here comes the "taxation" bit.

If you vote remain expect the EU to put its hand in your pocket in addition to the UK government. Vote Leave.

Simple research, the Regulation you quoted was only proposed, even MAG's own website regarding this hasn't been updated since 2012

Motorcycle Action Group

Maybe I should post in a bigger font with key points in bold underlined capitals:whistling:

You think?

It doesn't. All it shows is that you are subscribing to a particular opinion or belief. If someone in opposition had came out with a counter-argument then that may have made as much impact on you or someone else.

Please tell me of one occasion....just one... when a politician said something that was genuinely and sincerely in the best interest of the majority. I make one exception .......Nelson Mandela, and even that will court controversy.

[QUOTE=Fastship;540045]
Hardly.

How can you say that when the marketing manager of Triumph motorcycles himself says the contrary and gives the reason? I even reproduced his letter.
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=3]
Oh give me a break, now the marketing manager of Triumph is an expert:rofl:

I heard he would have already declared war on NATO but can't find the place on his map (printed in Mexico)

War.... We'll have to wait until Trump is voted in for that!

Settle down Russ....therapy is a great thing! (no sincere offence intended) :thumbup1:

Duh! Because 2012 was when the legislation was implemented - and it was implemented; approved by the European Parliament by huge majority (643 in favour, 16 against). Do try to keep up old chap doh

I must say, it is quite a unique stance to take that the EU is not anti-motorcycle given their past history and a view few here will subscribe to however they intend to vote on freedom day.


You got me there - we do indeed live in a Kakocracy. But, why would you vote or vote by neglect (in not voting) for more of them in the form of the EU when a simple cross in a box will contribute to their demise? It is little enough effort to make.

[QUOTE=RussG;540055]I would say so - yes.

Even that is too much effort for me, especially when I know the modus operandi of all concerned

Oooo ..more bold text.

So why didn't you post a link to the actual legislation rather than the proposal????


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[QUOTE=Fastship;540064]Care to explain why a marketing manager for a pretty minor manufacturer is an expert on this and 100% correct whilst every other expert, economist, forecaster who doesn't comply with your view of the world is wrong?

What an interesting turn of phrase you have Ted! The world survived 8 years of the cock womble W, so we'll outlive The Donald too! Does the US not realise what a laughing stock they're becoming just having him in the final of the 2016 Presidents' World Series.

Twiddle, not fiddle! !!!!! NICE USE OF BOLD FONT AND COLOUR DONT YOU THINK!?

So, a cock womble walks into a Starbucks, twiddling his ring antenna around his finger and says to the server: Give me a skinny latte, no olives.

Oh yeah, my view on the topic the op asked about

I'm not feeling lucky.

Note the use of a link (assuming it works!! :D ) rather than spamming up the entire site with copy/pasted stuff

There’s nothing a Brexiter loves more than a good conspiracy | Opinion | The Guardian

[QUOTE=RussG;540072]We're at cross purposes. The issue at discussion was pending EU anti bike legislation as illustrated by him in his explanation as to why Triumph employ anti-tamper software in their ECU's.

As to his political views, I have no idea, why would I?


Clearly TheWarden is not open to reason and I'm not going to change his view but that's OK.

The poster XS904 raised the issue of EU regulation and what effect it has on us bikes. For others interested in this issue Right To Ride EU does sterling work on our behalf fighting anti-bike EU regulation. One look at this page of their web site illustrates the extent of their campaigns Regulation News Releases but it also illustrates my point on the sheer hostility the EU has to us all and our biking freedoms. Sadly, RTR, MAG, FEMA and the other campaigning groups have only limited success against the relentless weight of EU regulation. Happily we in the UK now have the opportunity to free ourselves from all this bollocks and VOTE LEAVE

It’s curious that you align yourself with that Guardian newspaper opinion piece in which the only argument they can muster against us BREXITER’s is the old conspiracy theorist trope. Curious in that that newspaper is the foremost (UK) promoter of the “one percent” trope which has it that 1% of the world controls the other 99%.


Actually, of all things it is the remain campaign that has opened my eyes to the truth of that particular trope. The REMAINIACS have the entire media, the entire establishment, every big organisation in the world, all the money, from the banks, from the government, from the EU, from the corporations, they have the televisions, the newspapers, the social media networking sites, the MPs, the foreign Presidents and Prime Ministers, the military, the intelligence services, the 90 yr old veterans, the police, the charities, the stars, celebrities and virtue signallers, the universities and the crooked academics - almost the entire financial, political, media, military/industrial, intelligence agency, cultural, academic and anything-else-you-can-think-of strength against the Brexit campaign. Perhaps there’s something to this conspiracy theory after all.

But they still can't win.


The irony is that voting remain endorses and aligns you with the 1%.

The reason I read the Guardian online is that their journalism is pretty good and it's free. You have to pay for the Torygraph and I refuse to consume anything generated by that monster Murdoch.

Am currently travelling in foreign lands and it's great to read proper big long sentences in English. My Spanish is shite and most latinos' English is average to poor and after the usual pidgin chit chat I'm on my own with my kindle or BBC/Guardian news apps for the rest of the evening.

Talking to North American teenage backpackers isn't even an option when they start on their The Donald vs Hilary tripe.

I don't align myself with anyone or anything. I felt that particular piece of journalism fully matched my view, enforced by the fact that I in no way respect the 3 brexit mouth pieces Johnson (complete buffoon), Farage (I pronounce his name like a working class man would pronounce garage, the least bad of the 3, imho) and the most vile monster on the planet, Gove (I'm a teacher...)

The EEC/EC/EU has imho helped keep peace in Europe in my parents lifetimes and hopefully for the rest of mine too.

As this is a m/c travel forum, I'll leave this as my last serious contribution to this thread. I might however throw in random bollox just to see if anyone rises to the bait keepcalm :rolleyes2:

[QUOTE=Fastship;540077] I guess that's a no you can't then. What not even in a 10,000 word essay?

We're not at cross purposes you rolled out his words to support your agenda that the EU is going to implement legislation that you don't like. The fact being that this was yet more lies and propaganda.
They may well do in the future as may a brexit government in the name of environment or safety but that's irrelevant.

Wait – you're a Guardian reading, Farage/Boris/Gove hating teacher and you are a remainiac? Who'd have thunk it? :smartass: doh :rofl:





(PS – scary men with guns standing face to face against other scary men with guns keep you safe – and they are NATO.)

It's thought, not thunk. Some people on this forum like calling others names: Frankly it makes these individuals look like playground bullies and utterly ridiculous, just like their better paid ex public school official mouthpieces who really are only fishing to become the next leader of the Tory Party.

PS. Ever thought (thunk??!!) of the adaption of the slogan Make love, not war, where grown men think it's better to sell stuff to each other rather than fight each other?

As it's 8am here and the sun is shining, I'm off for a bike ride.

Suerte!

That's about the daftest thing I've ever read on the HUBB.

I work in the Low Cost airline (LCC) industry, was in at the beginning in the '90's. Last week Mick O'Leary CEO of Ryan Air shared a platform with Ed Balls, Gideon Osborne and Vince Cable in defence of the EU and advocating remain.


Here is a lecture Mick O'Leary gave five years ago to the EU Innovation Convention (a contradiction in terms?) in which he eviscerates the EU Commission and all its works. It is well worth watching not only for the sheer hypocrisy of Mick's more recent alignments but for the home truths he hilariously exposes in the Commissions own offices. WELL worth watching doh





One might reasonably ask why Mick now adores the EU? Well, Ryan Air is no longer the "challenger” airline up against the vested interests of state airlines, it IS the largest airline in the EU with its own vested interests and seeks protective the red tape and invisible barriers of the EU to prevent more efficient, lower cost challenger airlines for entering the market and undercutting them. Simples.

This perfectly illustrates the lies of the REMAINIACS in claiming they work on our behalf and prices will go up and shows how "vested interests" are at work. Only way to to show 'em (and get lower air fares) is to VOTE LEAVE

Could you use your industry experience to explain the mechanic of how leaving the EU would lower air fares to UK citizens? Not phishing. It's a genuine question to which I'd like to understand the answer.

There's a lot of talk about topics that I think won't change whether the UK remains or leaves, and the Triumph/motorbike topic is an example.

If I was the management of Triumph I would be looking at the legislation in the various markets I wanted to sell in (North America, South America, Australia, Asia, Europe) and would do a trade-off analysis on the costs/benefits of going for the lowest common denominator (i.e. one model for the whole world) or tailoring the bike for the individual markets. KTM, for example, has one variant that is sold in Australia and Europe. KTM models for other markets vary from this to the extent that the owner's manual is different.

If the UK left the EU, and if it would make sufficient difference to UK sales to have a UK-specific bike, then I (as Triumph management) might decide to market a bike that's different from the EU model. But probably not...

On the broader issues, it's been said that EU initiatives have improved our lives in many ways and I wouldn't disagree with this, but you don't have to be a member of a trading group to adopt the changes that the group decides. Even better, you can pick and choose which trading group's policies to adopt.

^
Sorry to contradict you Tim but Triumph do indeed build different spec bikes for one out of fifty US states which in turn are different from EU, Japan or “world” bikes. All manufactures of vehicles follow this policy; indeed you can by Land Rovers & Lancruisers with “World Spec” for use outside the EU only – guess what? They are much cheaper.


What we are talking about in regards to the ECU is mostly a few lines of code in the software. As we have seen with the criminality of Volkswagen adding, deleting or “changing” code is a simple and no cost task.


I did point all this out in my original post on the subject.


Where I agree with you is in the matter of choice, both for the vendor and the consumer. Triumph made their choice and I made mine and bought a Harley and with a Thundermax ECU I can tune to my hearts content.


The central point is however, is it acceptable for the EU to dictate to you what you can and cannot do with your own property? Would you allow them to dictate the operating system on the computer you own and how is this different to the the OS on your bikes ECU?

Within this seemingly trivial matter a great truth about the EU is revealed; under their system everything is illegal unless the law permits it. Under our system and way of life we are freeborn and everything is legal unless the law says it is isn't.

Would you buy an Amstrad E-m@iler from this man?
 

Another lunchtime howler courtesy of another hypocritical, flip-flop REMAINIAC :rofl:




5 May 2013:Lord Sugar attacks the EU, says Brussels is an obstacle to his companies’ success:

“When I started my business years ago, to take on the first person, the second, the third, was bad enough – but now we have a further obstacle to worry about: the political correctness of things, the claims culture, and the health and safety. It’s no wonder some small businesses say it is too onerous and they won’t hire anyone. I blame the fact that we are part of Europe. I blame the fact that the Government doesn’t have the guts to say to Brussels: I don’t like it, we should start taking control of our own safety and health regulations and our own claims culture. I’ve been told we can’t because we are in Europe. I say, enough is enough! We are Britain; we were once a great industrial nation and now you’ve turned us into a nation of ambulance chasers and moaners and wastrels.”

31 May 2016: Lord Sugar lovebombs the EU, says Brussels is responsible for his companies’ success:

“I’ve been in business for 50 years. I’ve seen some pretty daft ideas in my time. And I’ll tell you one of them: Britain leaving the EU… When we entered the EU, it was a breath of fresh air for me. It opened up a massive market. I was free to sell to and buy from who I wanted and where I wanted. Honestly, that’s how my companies prospered… So, for the sake of Britain, I hope you trust me and my instincts, and, on June 23rd, vote to remain.”

"What changed his mind?"
Peerage, government job, government contracts, BBC contracts etc. etc.?

...what Srallan said of the EU just six months ago:- https://youtu.be/jnN9FNZI97k

Do you have any evidence to support that? As I understand it, Norway is unable to choose which laws it can adopt or not, so long as it wants access to the common market, it must accept the laws and regulations which come with it. Without any vote, I might add.

Here is a former Norwegian finance minister talking about the 'Norwegian model' and Brexit;

This idea that we'll be able to leave and pick and choose what we want still sounds deeply unrealistic to me.

And here was me hoping this thread would have run out of steam by now. The problem is: no-one knows what opinion is right and what opinion is wrong. Opinions can be right but they can also be misleading and inaccurate. None of you will ever solve this conundrum or convince someone else you are right, and the biggest challenge, get them to admit they are wrong.

I can't do anymore, I voted yesterday!

Andy

No, you didn't contradict me because I didn't actually express an opinion as to whether Triumph did or didn't do different spec bikes.

Well if the UK government has the power to dictate what you can legally do, then if you are a EU citizen you should accept the EU has a great deal of power in that area, which it has in any case demonstrated over the years in its dealings with Microsoft.

So it's back to exit or remain.

How ?

Sent from my G7-L01 using Tapatalk

Postal vote.

Andy

Thanks, but I don't feel I need to give you evidence to support what is a very simple concept. And WTF has Norway got to do with this????

Norway is the model in which the brexit campaign are saying we could be like. As they are a prosperous, happy nation. Apparently.

Sent from my G7-L01 using Tapatalk

Norway is no-ones model but their own. However, there is something completely familiar about their experience during that country's referendum:-

https://youtu.be/YZcolMY4VLA

A wee story to ponder upon
 

If you start with a cage containing five monkeys and inside the cage
hang a banana on a string from the top and then you place a set of
stairs under the banana, before long a monkey will go to the stairs
and climb toward the banana.
As soon as he touches the stairs, you spray all the other monkeys with
.. Cold water.
After a while another monkey makes an attempt with same
result.........all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water.
Pretty soon when another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other
monkeys will try to prevent it.
Now, put the cold water away.
Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and attempts to climb the stairs. To his shock all of the other monkeys beat the crap out of him.
After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb
the stairs he will be assaulted.
Next, remove another of the original five monkeys, replacing it with a new one.
The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment...........with enthusiasm, because he is now part of 'the team'.
Then, replace a third original monkey with a new one, followed by the fourth, then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs he is attacked.
Now, the monkeys that are beating him up have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs.
Neither do they know why they are participating in the beating of the
newest monkey
Finally, having replaced all of the original monkeys, none of the
remaining monkeys will have ever been sprayed with cold water.
Nevertheless, not one of the monkeys will try to climb the stairway for the banana.
Why, you ask? Because in their minds.............that is the way it has always been!
This, my friends, is how Parliament operates.........and this is why, from time to time:
ALL of the monkeys need to be replaced at the same time.

Great analogy. But there are too many monkeys. And they control the police, media and armed forces..

Sent from my G7-L01 using Tapatalk

UK armed forces have an oath of allegience to the crown, not just for historical reasons but because it provides for checks and balances within the unwritten constitution.
I don't know to whom the police swear allegience but they are not cooperating with the current government, in Kent at least:-
http://www.channel4.com/news/electio...cedented-scale
Later reporting says that 12 police forces are investigating and commentary says that new by-elections could follow.
http://www.channel4.com/news/election-expenses-exposed

If the police were impartial 90% of parliament would already be behind bars.

Sent from my G7-L01 using Tapatalk

Getting back to the topic.. I voted NO.

Myself, I'm from the Netherlands and a similair discussion will start soon in my country.

A very rightwing and populist movement is starting to take shape in Holland (and perhaps in the whole of Europe).

Why do I say no?

Well, think about it, 55% of your trade is with Europe! And yes, this will also continue when you get out of the EU, as will the regulations.

Source

Therefore if the UK decides to leave the EU, you will have to comply to the same regulations but without a voice in the European parlement.

Furthermore, your banking sector has grown enormously after the EU was formed, this will also crumble may you leave the EU.

Source

One could argue whether it ever has been a good idea to start with the EU, but that's not what your vote is about. Your vote should help your country forward and not only be fueled by emotions.

We should not pass any racist comment to others.
The EU would be fantastic without the politics.
Recently I purchased sling bags online from a store.

Today is the centenary of the death of Jack Cornwell. He was 16 years old and one of the youngest ever recipients of a Victoria Cross. His recommendation for the VC from his Admiral read as follows:

"the instance of devotion to duty by Boy (1st Class) John Travers Cornwell who was mortally wounded early in the action, but nevertheless remained standing alone at a most exposed post, quietly awaiting orders till the end of the action, with the gun's crew dead and wounded around him. He was under 16½ years old. I regret that he has since died, but I recommend his case for special recognition in justice to his memory and as an acknowledgement of the high example set by him."

When they found him he had shards of shrapnel lodged in his chest. He died in the hospital before his mother could get there.

He would be belittled and decried as a Little Englander today (see above). Cameron, the BBC, Goldman Sachs and Owen Jones and the Guardian reading bed wetters would sneer that he is a racist and should try to be more pro-European. He needed no lessons at school on "how to be British". He is a reminder of what we once were and what the left wants to destroy.

In the coming weeks we will see the entire establishment mobilise further to try to smear and discredit those of us who want to return to self-government and the rule of law under habeas corpus. Don't let it demoralise you - it's very easy compared to what Cornwell went through.

And who knows how many others down the centuries died in similar fashion trying to defend our nation and what defines us?

Gob Bless you Jack Cornwell - stand down, your duty is done.

FFS!

I think we should be looking forward, not backwards.. times change

Sent from my G7-L01 using Tapatalk

Beautiful. The haze has lifted. Thank you for these insightful words that help move the discussion forward in a most dramatic way.

Is this the way to Amarillo?

The way some folk are talking, you'd think the panzers were lining up in Calais and firing shells with warheads made of HIV infected migrants.

:rofl: certainly sounds like the average Brexiters debating point :)

At least Jack was spared the sight of the current Prime Minister, on three separate occasions standing shoulder to shoulder with foreign leaders and smirking whilst those foreign leaders threatened our country should we dare leave their corrupt EU – it was our generation who witnessed that and it is us who must put it right and honour what Jack did on our behalf.

Jack was only a boy and lost his life but he got to live in a free nation and he died the most honourable of deaths. He knew England at her greatest and I admire him. His epitaph read as follows:

• "It is not wealth or ancestry
  but honourable conduct and a noble disposition
  that maketh men great."

Both those leading and following the REMAIN cause should ponder those words and look inside themselves. BREXITER's have no need to.

:rofl:

Your points of debate aren't getting any better and maybe you should take heed of the epitaph yourself?

I'm not sure what Jack Cornwell has to do with the current financial and international relations of the UK with Europe.

And besides reading the epitaph, I think that it actually reads, don't look back at your ancestors..

So perhaps, follow mr. Cornwell and fight for Europe.

What is exactly your point with naming him?

Perhaps, (IMHO) a more important man in British history, sir Winston Churchill said;

“We cannot aim at anything less than the Union of Europe as a whole, and we look forward with confidence to the day when that Union will be achieved.”

So, any other historical figures we should throw in the debate?

21 days to go
 

Nearly all of the posturing and hectoring from the great and the good must be nearly over now with 3 weeks to go.
Just a few live interviews on TV to come; I wonder how much the audiences will believe of what the politicians and non-elected miscellany have up their sleeves.

Jack died because old men in suits were squabbling over money and ego. He was cannon fodder. Indoctrinated into the armed forces from the lower educated Working class to give his life in exchange for someone else's glory..

Not much has changed..

Sent from my G7-L01 using Tapatalk

I suppose this won't change, Brexit or not..

Which leads to the philosophical question "What are you prepared to die for, nowadays?"
It's a rhetorical question though.

I commented some pages ago, that no one killed while serving in their nations' armed forces returns to their home country in a coffin draped in a blue flag, whether that blue flag be the NATO version or the EU version.

For instance, is a Scotsman prepared to die for the blue Saltire with a whilte cross?

Pretty convincing polemic from Pat Condell

So did "no" mean 'remain' or 'leave'? I tried to deduce the answer from the remainder of your post but it still wasn't clear from what you wrote.

This. Brexit. Stuff. Is. Boring.

No-one knows what will happen if we stay or go. There are 1001 opinions and versions of a new UK and what it would be like and not one of them is guaranteed to be real or accurate. It's like Y2K Groundhog Day all over again and the computer scaremongers.

'Ooooh, you're computer is gonna explode'
'No it isn't'
Yes it is coz my mate down the pub said so'

Like I said before, it's a load of bollox. That is all.

He invoked Winston Churchill and that famous quotation but made the classic error in omitting the “but Britain must never be a part of it” line so I think we can infer he is a (Dutch) remainiac.


Also, he highlights the rise of the hard right without acknowledging that this phenomenon is a direct result of the incompetence and failed policies of the EU and can therefore be laid directly at the door of the very institution he advocates.

Are you are an Irish citizen?
 

It seems bizarre that another nationality can vote in our country but it is so and we even have the Irish PM campaigning today on British soil with the approval of Vichy Dave. I can't imagine the reverse ever happening but anyways consider this;

If people vote “Remain” David Cameron’s recent EU agreement will be implemented, which means that new immigrants to the UK will have lower social benefits than those already here. It will be impossible under EU law to differentiate between Irish immigrants on the one hand and non-Irish ones on the other. So new Irish immigrants to the UK must face cuts in social benefits too. On the other hand, the long-established Anglo-Irish Common Travel Area, which goes back to 1923, is a matter exclusively for the British and Irish governments and is not an EU matter. Irish people will continue to move freely between the two islands and across the north/south border inside Ireland as they have always done.

What this Jack chap has got to do with brexit is beyond me. Some people have way too much time on their hands

Well you left a significant part of my post out of your quote.

But, I say remain in the EU. The U.K. will benefit more from staying and having a say in making the rules then to leave and having to subdue to rules that have been made out of their control. (55% of the trade being with the European mainland)

There is and should be sufficient room to let countries have their own identities. Rules, regulations and benefits are in place to have all countries and citizens benefit. Besides don't all politicians use the EU as a scapegoat? What if that is not there anymore? Who is to blame for their mistakes? :oops2:

when did I ever say I was voting in?

given the childish attempts of the brexit brigade, their fictitious conspiracy theories and the latest low point of using a fallen hero's memory in their arguement, I'm very tempted to vote IN just to annoy them more

EU ideologues see those people who identify themselves as British, Greek, German, French etc, instead of "European" as the chief obstacle to accelerating the single state project. They want to inflate the population with as many people from outside Europe as possible because those people don't carry what they see as outdated cultural baggage, and as beneficiaries of open border Europe they can be relied upon to vote for more of it.


This policy is applied intra-EU to an even greater extent which is why we have uncontrolled immigration into our country. It is not a by-product of the so called open market it is the exact reverse – Immigration is the policy. It is critical to the long term success of the European Project. If we vote remain it will accelerate.


The creed of hating your own history, the doctrine of that patriotism is guilt expressed here with such viciousness by a tiny minority of extreme europhiles is a manifestation of the EU ideology personified. The veneration of your own history is not evil, don't let them convince you otherwise.


Reject their hateful doctrine, their "Project Fear" and vote in your own rational self-interest and VOTE LEAVE

Well, I can give you plenty quotes of historical figures either saying remain or leave, depending in what context I would like to use it.

Which, to elaborate on the subject, was my point. There will always be a quote which one is able to interpret for his/her/it's cause.

In my opinion, your Cornwell epitaph does both sides justice, depending in what mindset you read it.


The rise of rightwing parties, which are particularly keen on independent states and the end of the EU, can very well be traced back to wrong politics and greedy politicians not aware of society's struggles.

Fear and hate against other ethnicity/religion/countries (underline your preferred answer) is what these groups are after. Mind you, being travelers (assuming you are), should have learned a valuable lesson that most people are genuinely kind, regardless of their religion or ethnicity.

Therefore, why would one want the UK to leave other countries behind? Because of a misplaced sense of being the greatest empire in the world regardless of being an island depending on their mainland partners?

The only good thing coming out of leaving the EU is that it will be dirt cheap to travel in the UK (for foreigners, the ones right wing tries to keep out), plus buying gear in the UK will be more affordable.

A useful overview of the economic argument, from a writer for the Independent newspaper (which nowadays is out of print and totally online only).
The author of the article used to work for the IMF, so he says:-

EU referendum: Why the economic consensus on Brexit is flawed

As it happens, Frank Field MP put his finger on a range of key aspects during the Question Time programme of last night.
In short, this referendum is just the start; the UK will be much more like Scotland is today, no matter what the result of the single event of 23 June which will be close, one way or the other.

The PM was taken apart by the Sky TV programme also of last night; after that performance he must regret ever becoming involved in leading his own campaign.

Meanwhile (again) police investigations of the Tory party actions during the 2015 general election gather pace.

Thank you for this! It really needed to be said given the context of this thread and the name of the forum we're all posting on.

I also bear that in mind; postal voting has a lot to answer for according to some commentators.
However, there is cause for optimism in the current police investigations into last years' elections.

Now "fact checked":-
https://fullfact.org/europe/26-mays-...e-factchecked/

Interesting discussion?
 

What do you think? Some good points made here, but I am not on the
ground in Britain, so I leave it up to those who are.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/why-brex...-molyneux.html

xfiltrate

Moderation in the HUBB pub might be looser than elsewhere but it's still unacceptable to get to the stage of name calling and rude language. By all means post a response saying you don't agree with a point of view, but please stay polite.

Accepted although I would suggest that moderation could be a little more even-handed. Just saying.

I removed posts from remain, leave and couldn't care less, so moderation WAS even handed

You have a thankless job as a moderator Tim but you do it well. You'll annoy someone with one reply and please someone else with another.
Some members just can't help getting ants in their pants when someone challenges their view on a tinterweb forum :thumbdown:

Thats maybe because its very easy to challenge someone from your armchair bier

Wayne

That about sums it up Wayne. :thumbup1:

Shame really but hey ho

fingers crossed the offenders get the message after the previous gentle reminder :thumbup1:

How dare you Sir! I will have you know my armchair is currently miles away so challenging you from there is positively difficult. I do wish you would try and get your facts right.

:rofl:

Disgruntled of Northern Rail

Immigration
 

A news item from today which will be swept up within all the other things going on at present and hence forgotten within a day or two:
Home Office slammed as report highlights failure to remove EU criminals | UK | News | Daily Express

That item reminded me of the death of Alice Gross in 2014:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Alice_Gross
Her assumed murderer hanged himself so we will never know - but he was a convicted murderer from Latvia who could enter the UK because he had served his sentence in that country for his earlier killing.

The case of Alice Gross resonants with me because it was a strong contributary factor to the decision of one of my relatives to leave West London.

Play nice folks or I'll delete the whole thread.. And that would be a shame because its a dam good read with brilliant responses from both sides.

Sent from my G7-L01 using Tapatalk

What's up?
 

I am not sure what this refers to but, hey, it wouldn't be the end of the world - it wouldn't even change the price of fish on the market tomorrow.

You're dead right. Who would really care. But I like to get insight to everyone's opinions. And why they think that way. Even if I don't agree with them I still respect their opinion and their right to have it.
This thread has been a wealth of information and entertainment but if it turns into some bitch fight then I'd rather not lower the tone of the Hubb anymore than usual and delete it before a moderator is forced to.

The price of fish may actually be a useful discussion point. No EU means international law, so we can sink Spanish boats off Dover, but they can sink ours off Cadiz. The price would fall if we eat more New Zealand Hoki than North Sea cod, but there would be pressure to let our boats out to hunt down every last shrimp and damn the fact that once they are gone they are gone.

I hope we'd have the sense to politely keep it all at sustainable levels, but I think Boris and Dave have mates who'd sell you the last fish in the sea frozen and in orange bread crumbs doh

Still think we can do our own mirror fishing and agriculture policies like the EU but efficient so not like the EU.

Andy

I still don't care.
I still won't be voting.
I still think politicians are twats.

And I am at peace with myself for thinking this way :D

I haven't seen anything like a bitch fight in this pub, even on a Friday night.

Opinions: On the day we will all just go and do it:-

Attachment 17702
those who want to, that is.

Should Britain leave the E.U. ???
 

To say you don't care/have no interest/it's all a load of crap etc, you keep coming back to comment lol

And....your point is........what..... doh

If you can't take it with the fun it was intended!...do i need a point

I can Lonerider lol, apologies if my sarcasm was lost on you :thumbup1:

I just find the wide range of conspiracies a bit bewildering but intriguing at the same time. It's like some people are trying to outgun each other with their insightful knowledge, none of which can be proven to be true yet they hang on to it for fear of a grim death.

Those are the folk who reaffirm my belief that it really is a load of bollox :smiliex:

Statistically significant?
 

This is post #900 of this thread, Should Britian leave the EU? I have noted that many recent posts are not addressing the topic, but addressing each other - in comradship or in the alternative.

If one cares to hear some facts that are statistically significant, please visit or revisit post #880 of this thread - one day ago.... Click on the link- watch and learn.... and be amazed at the intelligence of these two gentlemen.

While I might not agree with each of the conclusions of
Paul Joseph Watson and Stefan Molyneux - one British and one Irish, they do base their arguments on statistically significant facts.

Here, here, "you just gotta love the British"

xfiltrate