How about this ??? I'd happily swap all of Europe just for Canada.

http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/...edium=Facebook

We can but hope. Natural resources traded for knowledge and skills in a bloc with close cultural and language ties worked for 150 years. If we can all get over us dumping them in the 1970''s and refusing to treat them as equals for years before its a great fit.

Andy

The French did just that about 250 years ago.
Their intelligentia referred to Canada as "just a few acres of snow" and withdrew from there to leave it to the British colonists.

Sign this petition to bin Cameron after we achieve successful BREXIT :D

https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...signatures/new

A different subject entirely. Dave is maybe not the greatest but the alternative is Mad Boris, Count Von Osborne or Komrade Korbin? They could re-make Carry on Screaming with that lot if Fenella Fielding felt up to it

Think I will leave that one.

Andy

I want to vote yes but, A) if yes wins then things are gonna more or less stay the same instead of UK becoming more intergrated and B) the chance to get the effing tories out of government once and for all with a NO vote and the ensuing "no confidence " in parliament , is far too good an opportunity to miss. Hmmm, decisions decisions

Given his feeble, limp writsted “negotiations” for a new deal with the EU and the manner they walked all over him, his position in negotiating our Brexit from his beloved EU on terms favourable to the UK is untenable. His friends and future employers Goldman Sachs et. al. will instruct him and dictate terms favourable to them and their oligarch clients in the EU. Let Cameron leave office and go and get rich like is idol and role model T.B. Liar. Osborne is similarly compromised so Boris it is.

I agree though, it is a choice between "three bumps on a log". Cameron however, is a simply a jumped up PR man with all the stature and statesmanship of a Surrey estate agent. Komrad Korbin and his future Vorkuta camp guards (in waiting) are unelectable.



Further, if you are in Scotland and wanted to leave the UK but were disappointed in defeat then now is the chance for some revenge; vote leave, this will provide both the impetus to bin Cameron and possibly trigger a new referendum for you guys. Everyone's a winner. :D

A few thoughts.

The largest such petition to date was recently ignored by our illustrious government just because it suited them to do so, before it was even debated; Menningitis.
Thus indicating that these petitions are merely designed to distract.

Meanwhile, our PM has become the de facto cheer leader for his own negotiations with the EU when a man who was more sure of his ground might take a back seat for the referendum itself.

In the near future the electoral commission is due to decide the arrangements for the campaign proper - there is much infighting at present because money is involved.

The PM should fall on his own sword, as per "tradition", after June 23 but he won't because of who he is, so his own party will do for him - there is nothing as ruthless as the Tory party, as their previous leaders learnt.

To clarify, the petition reads, "That David Cameron is precluded from negotiations with the EU in the event of Brexit."

This seems sensible, given his lack-luster original shopping list and the failure to even achieve that in full.

SIGNED

He won't be in office in the event of a brexit "yes"; the Tories will ensure that he knows where his sword is, pointy bit uppermost.

As an aside, there is something for everyone in this website, which claims to be a think tank that is neutral about the question.
e.g.
Pros and cons of the EU-Canada free trade deal | Open Europe

Regarding the potential for negotiations post a Brexit vote, there is an almost unspoken assumption that we, the UK, would be negotiating with the EU; personally, I would prefer to see these negotiations pick off individual countries one by one, starting with the massive trade inbalance that we have at present with Germany.
(Merc, VW etc would have to sweat for a while, during which there will be German elections in 2017 and we have two years to arrive at a deal that replaces the current arrangements).

For all the world travellers out there
 

While still talking about trading, this aspect has not been mentioned in here to date, IIRC.

"Not a mention anywhere of why this European system is wrong for the low income countries of the rest of the world.
Like many, I was fooled in 1975 into thinking the EEC was a progressive, liberal internationalist project. Slowly, so slowly, I came to realise it is a rich man's club which shamelessly uses illegal means to dump on the poor. Prohibitive tariffs against processed, rather than raw, products – the meanest import regime in rich world other than Japan, far meaner than the USA. Massive farming subsidies which make commercial growing of certain crops in N Africa and the Mid-E all but pointless.
People with a better sense of history than I had in 1975 were able to see this monster for what it is. It is now time the rest of us woke up and saw it too"
- abstracted from elsewhere verbatim.

This is Germany's version of "The Today Show" view on our BREXIT campaign.

Don't mention the war. They did but I think they got away with it.


https://youtu.be/w0Y89dfR8v8

Who says the Germans don't have a sense of humour. Very funny.

Their Russian Grandfathers.

This old chestnut still rumbling?
 

I'd have thought you'd have it all argued out long ago.

The choice is simple:
One the one hand there is the European Commission which is unelected and acts unashamedly in the interest of big business.
Or we can go with those other neoliberalists who want out.

An interesting adverb; there is quite an amount of online comment about how the EC no longer bothers to obfuscate its' real motives.

In real world publand during the past few days, while imbibing copious quantities of ale, there were two predominant conversations:

1. Englands' current success at the game of Rugby last Saturday.

2. The theme of The EU deal with Turkey is fraught with dangers - Telegraph

An interesting read and one I can agree with

Wayne

The much respected Dan Hannan has put up this video:

https://youtu.be/n3jT-HdwlE0

So, what's it all about?
 

Abstract Economies.


In all of the discourse to date about the future referendum, we haven't heard a politician discuss what is the purpose of an economy – your economy, my economy, the politicians' economy.
Nor will the economists address the question, who is the economy for?
What is the purpose of the economy of a specific nation?


The academic economists will talk, endlessly apparently, about all manner of statistics, addressing their own favourite theories drawn from their lifetime of studies about how the economy works – but they won't tell you who it is for.
Cui bono?
?c?

Don't mind so much abstract economics and university economists. As a matter of fact I believe one can easily forget them. Instead there are those economists with a real life outside the pure and clean environment of the academia, those who have their jobs in the real world and deal everyday with the multiple challenges of the real world, in the real economy, in the real companies with real people. These are the ones to listen and understand each one's own context.

There's an old saying which goes "Those who know, do, those who don't, teach.". Throughout life I've found the saying to be way too real.

Well, here's a partial answer to "what is it all about?"
 

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Abba_Lerner
The scholars who understand it hesitate to speak out boldly for fear people will not understand. The people, who understand it quite easily, also fear to speak out while they wait for the scholars to speak out first. The difference between our present situation and that of the story is that it is not the emperor but the people who are periodically made to go naked and hungry and insecure and discontented - a ready prey to less timid organizers of discontent for the destruction of the civilization

True or False?
 

Another abstract from the wiki link above:
"The central idea is that government fiscal policy, its spending and taxing, its borrowing and repayment of loans, its issue of new money and withdrawal of money, shall be undertaken with an eye only to the results of these actions on the economy and not to any established traditional doctrine what is sound and what is unsound ...Government should adjust its rates of expenditure and taxation such that total spending is neither more or less than that which is sufficient to purchase the full employment level of output at current prices. If this means there is deficit, greater borrowing, "printing money," etc., then these things in themselves are neither good or bad, they are simply the means to the desired ends of full employment and price stability"
IIRC, Lerner wrote this work in the 1950s, so it is outside of living memory for many.

In the light of the above, which of these 7 bullet points is true?

1. The government must raise funds through taxation or
borrowing in order to spend. In other words, government
spending is limited by its ability to tax or borrow.
2. With government deficits, we are leaving our debt burden to our children.
3. Government budget deficits take away savings.
4. Social Security is broken.
5. The trade deficit is an unsustainable imbalance that takes away jobs and output.
6. We need savings to provide the funds for investment.
7. It’s a bad thing that higher deficits today mean higher
taxes tomorrow.

In the light of the migrant crisis alone you guys should get out of the EC ASAP and blow that tunnel up, very thoroughly.

EC politics sucks.

You obviously have strong feelings, Walkabout, with over 170 posts (one in every three) on this thread. The earlier stuff I followed but just sticking up links or quotes for people to read doesn't seem to advance the argument much.

Ridetheworld keeps commenting on the fact that Brexit advocates haven't made the case for the advantage of that move, and to a degree I concur. Lots of words written but where's the beef?

The KeynesIan economics relevance lost me too. The EU commission has corporatist tendencies, but I don't expect to see anything like 1979. They may want it but haven't the get up and go to achieve it.

Leave to me is about the freedom to differentiate all aspects of ourselves. We can decide to have the death penalty or trade with Australia or ban straight bananas, or sink Spanish trawlers in our waters or not or whatever. We will make mistakes but they will be our mistakes. We will not be dragged into some grey future where everything is based on what two or three dozen disinterested utterly different countries decide is the lowest common denominator. We will have the opportunity to pick up the well paid, specialist jobs that suit us way better than huge Euro corporations.

If we don't have balls to run our own affairs and need the herd to avoid fear, the EU will oblige, but we can't then complain that we end up eating grass not roast lamb.

I would also suggest that having said we might go, if we don't the EU is going to take its revenge. We will be forced to have the Euro for sure and will be the whipping boy for whatever self serving schemes the blocs within come up with. You can bet we will be voted down over and over again, just like the SNP at Westminster. Out is two years working our notice with the full freedom to hurt the EU back as much as it seeks revenge on us. If they let us go with a nice trade deal everyone is happy, so that's what their business masters will choose.

Andy

All of them are true?
No, they are all false, but you wouldn't think so if listening and reading all manner of misinformation.
The key to understanding this is that nation states are not at all associated with the economics of individuals or any other entities of any kind other than other nation states; but this fact is obfuscated by those who wish to deceive or who, at best, are simply deceived themselves.


Perhaps it is these self truths that provided the strength of mind to the people of Iceland when they called time on the banking scam perpetrated in their country and returned to first principles and straight forward thinking, casting off the bluff, self-aggrandisement and general bravado of the system that had attempted to subvert that nation.
As it happens they, the Icelanders, have also had the presence of mind to stay out of the EU.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access...European_Union

There is little enough discussion herein so my contribution is whatever it is; it is for others to make their own cases and, surely, they can speak up for themselves.

The case related to Brexit is made in a number of earlier posts by many others whereas the opposing case appears to be assumed to be some form of "status quo" based on the mantra "stronger, safer, better off".


As far as links are concerned, it is necessary to read them to some extent or another as one sees fit; such as the Flexcit plan that I posted a while ago that runs to more than 400 pages - naturally, no one has to read it or anything else posted in here.

With these lies who needs statistics?
 

The relevance of my current very wide perspective is that many arguments put forward by sundry commentators within the MSM and via many other sources are based on untruths – those untruths are repeated ad infinitum to the point where they become accepted as representing a universal truth.
In effect, those who are aware of this become complicit in the lies or they are not aware of how wrong their own pronouncements are; there is no compromise on that as per my source material for those who wish to know more:-
The 7 key issues in this article are fundamental and are argued succinctly.
http://www.moslereconomics.com/wp-co...oints/7DIF.pdf


Like all well designed and propagated propaganda, the lies gain a life of their own; just today on TV-based commentary some of these hackneyed lies were used as a means of arguing for staying in the EU – variants of the “stronger, safer, better off” mantra, a mantra that is never deconstructed by the tame media journos with the exception of a few rare cases.
“Don't drop your grandchildren in the mire”.
“How will we ever afford to exist outside of the big EU?”
and on and on, all BS based on the fraudulant 7 lies.



The link above runs to about 60 pages by the way, so not so bad. :(

The case for leaving the EU isn’t about free trade or immigration
 

I've just read a great piece on this debate, which makes HUGE sense to me. Worthy of posting here; and a great 'common sense' view on this whole vexed issue:

-----------------------------------

By: John Stepek - MoneyWeek.com:

I went to an event on Brexit the other night.

It was primarily making the case for “leave”. There were a couple of political heavy hitters there, who made their views eloquently enough. Nothing you won’t already know.

But for me, the most interesting insight came from the “remain” speaker…

What the EU means to believers is very different to our view of it

The most interesting contribution to the Brexit event I attended the other night came from an Italian speaker. He was there to provide something of a “minority report”, as someone who thought Britain should remain within the EU.

I always find it fascinating to get a view of the EU from someone within continental Europe who actually believes in the project. We don’t hear that enough in the UK.

And it’s very useful. Because it rapidly becomes very clear that they have an utterly different take on the EU to even the keenest British “remain” people.

For me, the most telling point is that continental Europeans who are keen on the EU have no shame at all about acknowledging that the EU is about ever-greater union. They don’t have a problem with admitting it in public. They see this as the whole point.

This is a very fundamental perception gap, and one that really matters. The “remain” camp in Britain contains very few people who would argue publicly for ever-closer union (not since the eurozone crisis, at least).

The debate is generally framed as being about whether or not we want to be part of a free trade area. And when you frame it like that, the idea of walking out seems somewhat foolhardy. Why would you do it?

A vote to “remain” is a vote for the status quo. A vote to “leave” is a weird decision to give two fingers to our existing trade partners in the hope of getting a better deal from a global superpower that really couldn’t give two hoots about us, and an emerging superpower that basically feels the same.

The problem is that this isn’t true. It never has been. And it doesn’t matter how many bland reassurances David Cameron gets about ever closer union being off the cards. The entire bureaucratic structure of the EU was built on ever closer union. A few lines in a treaty won’t change that.

For me, this is the core reason why Brexit makes sense. It doesn’t seem terribly helpful to be a member of a club that wants something that we are implacably opposed to. The EU wants ever-closer union. We don’t.

If you frame it like that, then in effect, the “remain” argument is that we should sit inside the tent, being as disruptive as we possibly can, rather than sit outside the tent and let everyone get on with it. And when you put it like that, I can see why a significant number of Europeans must think: “I do hope they vote to leave”.

A United States of Europe is fine – if that’s what the people want

Of course, the tricky thing with the ever-closer union argument is that the British are far from being the only voters in the EU who have no desire to be tied together as part of a United Europe. It just so happens that we’re getting a referendum on the topic.

To be clear, I don’t have any problem at all with other countries who have a desire to merge as a United States of Europe (USE – maybe needs a better acronym). In fact, it’s the only way that the euro – in the long run – makes sense.

And countries with grossly different economies and even political cultures have merged in the past. You only need to look at the gap between East and West Germany before reunification. That re-merging process was not easy, but there’s never been any real suggestion that it wouldn’t happen or that it would ever be reversed.

However, it only works if the people – the voters – want it to work. History amply demonstrates to us that when you impose artificial borders and artificial unity on a group of human beings, it tends to blow up nastily, and usually in your face.

So what I do question about the whole European project is whether or not they genuinely have the “buy-in” from their electorates to forge ahead with it. Because if they did, then the question of the Greek crisis and Grexit would never have arisen. Germany would have given Greece money, and Greece would have tried harder to be a good citizen of the USE.

And ultimately, this is the reason I think we’d be better off out of it. The EU is a mess because like it or not, there is this hubristic unification project at the heart of it. And I suspect that many other EU nations are glad that the UK is a member, because we act as a curmudgeonly brake on its worst excesses – and a lightning rod for criticism.

If we leave, then it might force the EU to take a proper look at itself, and encourage some transparency and an acknowledgement of realities that are currently being glossed over largely by money printing and political wishful thinking.

Maybe we get a two-speed EU. Maybe we get a split in the eurozone. Maybe the whole thing just decides to lumber on in self-deception. But at least we’ll have tried.

Source

Go with the flow or stand up and be counted?
 

**Edited to remove most of an unneeded quote

Many thanks for the well written post; I was considering a reply to the post shown below and you have done that very eloquently, fully supporting the "plea" made below.
As an aside, a further reason that I have been doing my own reading about economic issues is because that is where the main arguments made by the "remainders" within the MSM have been to date.
Therein lies their own weakness with very little breadth of discourse; this may change of course as the official starting gun is fired at which point we may get a better range of argument.
As a further comment, as you have found, points made by "remainders" can inadvertantly support the case for Brexit.
In a few days time I am off on a visit around some of the European countries to get some feeling for the ambience - I did a similar trip over the border a couple of weeks before the Scottish referendum.
Democracy Vs Debt (aka Wonga).
Democracy and Debt | Michael Hudson
An interesting discourse about how oligarchies become aristocracies followed by democracies and so on through history.
A couple of short abstracts:

“giving priority to bankers and leaving economic planning to be dictated by the EU, ECB and IMF threatens to strip the nation-state of the power to coin or print money and levy taxes.”


“Iceland and Argentina are most recent examples, but one may look back to the moratorium on Inter-Ally arms debts and German reparations in 1931.A basic mathematical as well as political principle is at work: Debts that can’t be paid, won’t be”


Which reminds of the oldish saying “privatising the profits and socialising the debt” (of the banks).
On this basis, it is logical that Britain will morph from a less-than-complete democracy into an oligarchy – all historical evidence says that it is inevitable according to the article above, although the German system of banking may have greater success in avoiding this progression (but only when the Dm has been reinstated).

Pithy commentary
 

Thanks, I was going to do that and then forgot.

Received by email during the last 24 hours:-

I have a very generous offer for anyone who wants to stay in the EU – send me your salary every year!
Don’t worry. I am not heartless - I will slowly dribble 40% of it back to you to spend as you wish – as long as you have my written approval first.
“What do I get in return?” I hear you ask – well plenty – I’ll send you lots of rules and regulations governing just about every aspect of your life.
If you buy food, use electricity or drive a car that burn fossil fuel I'm afraid I will have to punish you severely – don’t complain, it’s for your own good, it’s called “tough love.”
Of course all of this requires a lot of work on my part, so I’ll need to slice a large piece off the top of your “contribution” to pay my salary, accommodation, expenses, perks, and to help fill my platinum plated pension pot.
Oh, and by the way, leave your house doors open at all times – I’ll decide who can enter!
I expect to be deluged with applicants – so be patient – I’ll get round to everyone…. Eventually.

:rofl:

If you've signed up for it and paid, it must be a trade deal and therefore a good idea doh

Andy

Anyone else heard about this?
 

On a somewhat more serious note, there is commentary in circulation that the ECB is conducting monetary exchange restrictions with parts of the Eurozone who are in rebellion against the central powers; it's new stuff to me and I haven't got into this much to date - it is also possible that it is France that has instituted these arrangements (apparently, it is illegal in France to criticise the French banks, so online commentators who live in France are being quite circumspect in how they discuss this matter).

The countries specifically having issues with business transfers of cash out of France are Greece, Poland and Northern Cyprus (aka Turkey).

I will say one thing about it all, if we stay in the other countries will spank us and it won't be nice :thumbdown:
I can't believe that they have the audacity to tell us we would be safer due to information sharing, oh really, strange that as we could not share info with some of the newer members of the eu, due to the fear that it would end up with criminals as the police in certain countries were corrupt.
As for border security, forget it, if I told you what really goes on, which I can't due to having signed something, you would have a fit...... It is really that bad and has been for a very long time...... Out of control is a reasonable description.
As for Cameron saying that we have upped security with extra police etc since belgium who is he kidding, where have all these extra officers come from??
I'll take my chances out thank you very much............. keepcalm

The highest paid female politician in the world is a Labour life peer called Baroness Ashton who is an EU commissioner. The British public have mainly never heard of her, and none of us have ever voted for her, but she gets paid £400,000 a year to make up laws and sign trade agreements that impact all of us.

Respect for democracy comes very much second to the "grand vision" for Eurocrats. Their argument effectively seems to be that democracy can be suspended to get us to an USE/EUSSR where the European parliament becomes supreme over the council of leaders, and then who we elect to it will start to matter, and democracy will return. Therefore, issues that run counter to a USE/EUSSR such as free movement of labour are never up for debate or renegotiation regardless of the will of the people in the member states

The Lisbon treaty was forced through in most countries. When the Irish voted no, it was simply taken back to them for a further vote after some additional pressure. Therefore, I suspect that if the UK does vote to leave, a second reform deal and a second referendum will occur, although the in campaign are desperate to play this down and frame this as a one time leap into the unknown, much as they did with the Scottish referendum.

I am voting out for many reasons, but the 'democratic deficit' the EU creates is as good a reason as any.

It was this former junior council officer's (and now de-facto EU foreign minister) bungling diplomacy in encouraging that ethnically mixed country Ukraine to prepare to apply for EU membership that precipitated the current Russian v. West crisis that resulted in annexation of the Crimea, a low level war on their border, the deaths of all those souls on the Malaysian airlines flight and the strengthening of Russia's military position in the Middle East and necessitated an increase in NATO forces opposing Russian forces.



So much for the EU keeping us safer.

Anyone know the truth of claims the EU will stop us taking over what TATA steel don't want? Common law would certainly allow a British government to buy or even take the steel mills as strategic assets but the idea that EU law actively prevents it seems like propaganda? I'm guessing it can be done but will take so long the steel workers will all be retired and China will rule the world by then or is it really enshrined?

Andy

Yeah, I have seen that on the news also. This is the kind of b0!!ocks which says we should be out of the EU. Who are they to say that our Government can't help our Steel industry or anything else for that matter? Think I read somewhere that it was due to sh!te EU legislation that the UK Steel has gone the way it has

Wayne

If it is wrong it harms the leave case though. There are also stories that UK gov voted in the EU not to block Chinese imports!

UK steel is high quality, high spec and high cost. We do not for example just photocopy the same x-ray report over and over again, we actually test the stock. Typical practice in half the world is to use British steel for the first half of a building then top it off in Indian or Chinese ***p. It is in trouble because this differtiation has not been made. The rebuild needs to sort this and take into account the strategic needs if we ever need ships or tanks. The government have a role to play supporting this side. The EU can't do this because the German specialist steel makers want us out of the game.

Andy

Read in the Times today that the Chinese have put a 46.3% mark up (Tax) on steel imported to China from Japan, South Korea and the EU where as the mark up on Chinese Steel coming into the EU is only 9%, go figure

Wayne

From my post of 19 January...
Wars are about gaining power and possessions and used to fought totally with armies. China has found a new way of waging war and now owns vast tracts of the western world.

The Chinese are not dumb and are very difficult to understand for westerners, mainly because of their conception of time. The goals we have and measure in months or years, they measure in generations. That ownership of western assets and financial instruments started decades ago and, at the moment, it is a sword of Damocles over the heads of several countries, namely the US given the vast holding of US issued debt instruments by the Chinese State, Chinese State entities and Chinese companies in general.

Let's, however, look at that from another angle. Financial, currency and trade wars are nothing new to mankind. The issue with them, though, is that it starts there but usually escalates towards real war. And, Tim, let's be honest; right now several issues around the world are ripe for the start of a large scale war. There are several tensions, several issues here and there, escalations and provocations in several points of the planet which may end up in a large scale war. The worst of all this is that I am not fully convinced that a large war is a bad thing at this time...

AND the developing world too Tim.

It staggered me to see how much of SE and Central Asia has been bought-up, and/or built by the Chinese in these regions - and as a consequence, is now under their control.

Although I've never been there, it's a similar story in/around the African continent too, so I understand.
:thumbdown:

Political leadership is fun
 

Currently visiting German speaking Switzerland, they, the Swiss, are awaiting some leadership from the UK regarding their own dispute with the EU; the latter comes down to the issue of free movement of people - the Swiss have voted in their own referendum to restrict future movement and their government have two years from that outcome to implement the wishes of the population. That two years expires next year, so everyone here is supposedly waiting to see what our own referendum decides on 23 June.

Copper in particular, see this article from 2008: China's drive for mineral wealth

Yes true, they are doing loads in SE Asia, I was reading a piece in the Bangkok Post the other day about China, they are even controlling the water flow in the Mekong, via Dams built, from some Province in China north of Laos. Due to not much rain in the Rainy Season quite a lot of places are having a bit of a drought and some rice fields are failing. The Mekong fills a lot of subsidiary rivers and lakes, but apparently only when China releases the water now.

Wayne

Airbus warns British employees on cost of Brexit
 

...and reflecting the loyalty of Airbus Group to its' EU/UK workers here last month, is the first model to roll off their newly completed production plant in that great European State:Alabama! :rofl:

https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/...x?itemid=66133

...also to be kept in mind by Airbus workers would be their 1998 offer to the Chinese government to move wing production from Chester to China in exchange for orders. Wing design & production being the "holy grail" of aircraft technology: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airbus-may-move-wing-production-to-china-43640/ YOU DON'T GIVE IT AWAY.

Should Airbus again wish to make such an offer to our industrious Chinese cousins neither the Welsh or UK Government could block it as neither has Sovereignty; it would be a EU issue. Airbus wish to keep it this way and is the reason for the anxieties of Airbus re. BREXIT.

As with steel, so with airliners...doh

Referenda: a huge problem for the EU
 

Look no further than this top Eurocrat for proof of Brussels’ loathing for democracy. After Dutch voters had the gall to defy the EU last week, Fraser Cameron, a former senior adviser to the Commission, wrote this on why “it is time for an EU ban on referenda”.

“Referenda are becoming a huge problem for the EU. The latest result in the Netherlands on the Association Agreement with Ukraine is probably the worst possible outcome. If the turnout had been below 30% the Dutch government could have safely ignored the vote…
Undoubtedly there is a growing trend towards referenda. There have been over 50 in the last twenty years. Sometimes referenda are forced upon governments if there is sufficient voter support, as was the case in the Netherlands… Perhaps it is time for an EU ban on referenda!”

Pesky democracy, getting in the way of the European super-state…


UKIP’s Steven Woolfe's view:

“Here is the EU’s disdain for democracy exposed. Fraser Cameron worked as a senior adviser to the Commission for a decade and his is a view held by many in the corridors of Brussels. He and his fellow apparatchiks don’t want the people to have a say in the future development of the European Superstate.”

Who remembers voting for this jumped up little c**t?




...another day another revelation:-In aninterview with the Vice President of the European Parliament in which he claims the PM’s (call me "Dave") renegotiation is not legally binding after all. Alexander Graf Lambsdorff says Brussels “clearly went too far” during its negotiations with call me "Dave" and suggests the deal could be altered if we stay in the EU:

“their agreement is in no way a document of the European Union, but a text of hybrid character, which is unspecified and not legally binding”

Anyone who still thinks a reformed Europe is anything but a fantasy must surely have woken up by now? Vote leave. You know it makes sense. :D

Foreign policy for the Commission
 

Anyone who has taken on board the earlier posts in here won't be surprised to read in the short article below about how the EC is developing itself, the direction in which it is headed and the type of functionaries who stand behind the public image that is portrayed.

Empire Building Under The Radar: How Europe Uses Its External Action Service | UK Column

The good news is that the official campaigning starts now and there are just 10 more weeks of this!

Just got back from a week away to find the government 'please don't leave' booklet in the letterbox. Apart from saying 'please don't leave' a dozen or more times it consists of twaddle such as "44% of UK exports go to the EU" but "less than 8% of EU exports come to the UK".

To call this disingenous is being polite. 8% of exports from 27 countries are quite obviously far more more than 44% from one.

I shall be sending my booklet back to the Conservative Party using their free post address

I sent mine to 10 Downing St, London SW1A 2AA. No stamp. They must have a skip out back full of them by now.It's a kind of early referendum indicator for them.

Lacking integrity
 

If you use a freepost address, it costs them.
Sending without a stamp may also cost, but our revered, privatised, post office probably has instructions to go direct to the skip with such mail.

Reported somewhere that there is a petition to encourage our house of commons to debate the issue of use of public funds for the purposes of this campaign; hasn't happened to date of course and I guess they will find time for this debate before 23 June.

So far, the most interesting aspect has been to see the scabby politicians chasing about after their own arguments.
As for ex-Chancellors of the Exchequer, look up who employs a certain A Darling nowadays and who is employing G Brown.
Next up will be Pres Obama.

...yes, that petition required a threshold of 100,000 signatures before 23rd June for it to be debated in the HoC; in point of fact it is already at 215,752 signatures and climbing and the debate will now be held :D

I haven't looked up who employs them but would they have their snouts in the trough of Goldman Sachs by any chance?

I remember seeing ex-PM John Major advocating remain "purely in the interests of the British people" but then I wondered just how he became a multi-millionaire on a civil servants pay...

"Broken window" economics (an economic concept from a few hundred years ago) likely won't end well in the modern world.
Still, we have proxy conflicts already in place which are all part of the bigger issue of the current currency war.
Japan carried out their physical pre-emptive strike at Pearl Harbour in Dec 1941 after a period of economic blockade by ------- you know who.

Commentary from today:-
Gold is the spectre haunting our monetary system
With further informed comment contained in this blog:-
https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2016/04...ner-or-a-pest/


Morgan Stanley and Pimco respectively.
Alistair Darling joins Morgan Stanley - BBC News

Incidentally, John Major had the balls to run away to join the circus (or some such story on those lines - maybe his parents were trapeze artists?).
He also had the balls to get off with a certain Edwina. Ye Gods.

Our crop of politicos must hate the existance of the internet, but it has been reported that two of the "great and good" have recently deleted all of their earlier speeches from their websites - Cameron and Corbyn.

74% of British soldiers vote leave
 

Of the very few forums I frequent three of them of similar polls to this one.;

AARSE, a forum for soldiers are voting 74% leave

Pistonheads are voting 62% leave

Horizons Unlimited 46% leave

...John Major's parents were in the circus but John Major himself is the only recorded example of a man who ran away from the circus to become an accontant.

The malign influence of the EU extends to Africa also. The Common Agricultural Policy and it's massive subsidies creates huge surpluses which are then exported to Africa with further export subsidies. Local (African) farming is further rendered uneconomic by swinging EU import tariffs of up to 28%. In combination this makes food in the UK much more expensive, estimated at about $1000 per family per year than free trade would otherwise allow. This is actual cash, each year we have been in the EU and each year we remain in the EU and not the fictitious amounts the remainers "project fear" spuriously say we would be worse off by 2030 if we leave.

A by-product of this madness, since the land cannot sustain these now poverty stricken Africans they do what I would do in their place, seek a better life in Europe...but are met with tear gas and batten wealding EU border forces.


And we should remain in the EU why???

Funny old thing
 

I returned to the UK about a week ago after travelling in 3-4 countries of mainland Europe for various durations over 3 weeks.

After a week back here I have yet to see any UK TV news coverage of this item which was reported on many continental channels during my travels.
“Nuit Debout”: Dawn of a French Style [Color] Revolution? | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

Funny that.

Possibly because its of little interest to the UK?

Just watched 'Them or Us' on BBC2. One hour exposé of European politics. Should be required viewing by all voters.

The programme showed a clip of Nigel Farage in action in the European Parliament and I must say I have a new-found admiration for him, watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dranqFntNgo

Theme for the week
 

Farage became one of the best if not the best member of the European Parliament. He is articulate and logic. Knows how to make an argument starting with its premises, their development and ends with the logic conclusion.

I watched a few of his speeches from over the years from the EU parliament & agree completely.

Nothing wrong with being "part of Europe" but not ruled by it.

Mezo.

and here lies the problem!

Wayne

The offiicial campaigns in the UK have made no effort to address such key issues so far.
They really do need to up their games and deal with the difficult questions rather than the economic speculation/guessimation that says what might happen in 15 years from now (in reality they don't know what is happening next week, especially with the current laissez-faire approach to the UK economy).

Meanwhile, units of the Netherlands army have been taken under command of German units as part of the effort to stand up new EU armed forces.

I post something up about this staying in or leavening. We are still getting post in the way of in or out. Listen to what the man say's. He is saying, if you vote to leave, it's a mandate to reapply under better terms. So this in out vote. Is not will we stay in or stay out. If it's in, we stay in, if it's out we will re-join. So what ever way you look at it. We are in for the long road.


Sorry to disappoint the permit out people. It's a politician your talking to. Not a normal human.
John933

Should Britain leave the E.U. ???
 

Vote Brexit to end food banks, close tax havens, end FPTP, close the House of Lords, smash the Murdock/Barcley/Rothemere/Desmond press, kick out all the Eurotrash. Gove and Borris will be in charge for the next four years. It will be FANTASTIC! Free beer for all down the pub with Farange. What's not to like? Brexit will make Britian GREAT again.

Y'all should do what the POTUS tells you an vote again that there cesession from that there union.

Anyhoo, ain't you limeys more interested in how them Lie-sester Tigers are doing in that So-car superbowl?

Cletus
:rofl:

Let us not kid ourselves
 

Well, even the POTUS is human - if you cut me do I not bleed?
But, virtually all politicians do display psychotic facets to their personalities.

As for events of the past twenty four hours:

The POTUS dude arrives straight out of the heart of Wahhabism darkness (his previous port of call before setting foot on UK soil) to deliver an homily to the Brits about our own best interests.
With not a trace of irony to be found.


About this WW1/WW2 thing: in both cases the USA ensured that Europe bled itself into the mud of the battlefields before deploying any troops into the fight, so that they would then have a seat at the table for the post-war arrangements.
Fair enough; that is what nations do – look after their own interests only.
Round 1 brought the USA forward as an emerging world power and round 2 finished off the job; since 1945 it has been their job to police the world and we can all make our own call about how that has been handled.


During the earlier part of WW2 while the USA sat on its' hands they contributed 50 very old, obsolete “lend lease” ships to the British war effort at enormous price in their use of UK real estate.
Nations have no friends, just national interests.



For WW2, Stalin did much the same thing, but contributed far more in blood to the victory of that war over Nazi Germany; did he care? Nope.


So, the dude who is leaving office tries to sell his own particular vision of history as some kind of special relationship with his own country that requires the UK to kowtow to the European Commission in perpetuity.
?c?

Back of the queue for trade deals with the USA? No problem. As TWB said, we can always do a trade agreement with Canada. That should replace the EU nicely.

:rofl:

Great to see the Yanks are putting their 2 pennies worth in.
How Obama has the gall to tell us to stay in the EU is beyond me. All this coming from probably the most paranoid country over sovereignty and keeping people out. Glad Boris told him where to go (the way Boris does)
Then threatening us with trade deals. Cameron should have kicked him out.
Its really annoying when others stick there nose in to other people business especially when it will not effect them, except maybe less controllable

Wayne

Cameron wrote his speech. :nono:

He should worry about his own backyard first, set an example & possibly the world would listen to him, but with Trump, gun crime, unemployment, racist police.

STFU Obama :thumbup1:

Mezo.

Well after Obama s intervention I am even more sure it's a vote for out, Cameron can go to. To say I was incensed to have a lame duck leader of another country making threats just about did it, shame he didn't put that much effort into gun control or in his dealing s with Putin.
When he opens his borders to everything south of him, gives those citizens the right of abode and work, allows his supreme Court to be over ruled by unelected foreign judges etc etc then I will take him seriously. In the mean time I suggest he buggers off and sinks into obscurity,
All above comes with apologies to our American cousins, you have a txat for a president and we have a lap dog for a prime minister........... Democracy took a hit last night.

All this talk of leaving Europe makes me smile.

What's the plan? Tow the UK further into the Atlantic?

We are not leaving Europe. We are considering leaving the union. It was initially an economic union, but all that has drastically changes over the past 40 years.

I suppose one question you should be asking is given the change in the type of economy and our industries over the last 4 decades, going from large multinational companies a large number of which were nationalised, to smaller companies that do not have the clout to benefit from this new marketplace and are being strangled by red tape. If we we're not in the EU now, would it be in our best interests to join?

To be honest, all the scaremongering and lame threats from government are really not helping their cause. Neither is wheeling out your political chums to back you up.



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"Standing in line" - the much more colloquial Yankie expresssion - for the intended TTIP can last for ever IMO.
How much do each of us trade, as individuals, with the USA?

Virtually everything physical that Brits import nowadays comes out of China; it's the same for those in the USA.
Both of the UK/USA real economies are living beyond their means.

As usual, the ones making the biggest noise are looking after their banking friends; talking of which, Herr Osbourne has made some 16 offiicial announcements in his time and every one of them has been wrong.
Deficit figures an embarrassment for George Osborne as he misses targets set last month
This from the guy who is forecasting 15-16 years ahead as his input to the arguments.

The Governor of the BoE has a similar track record and has never got a public announcement correct in his current role.

Meanwhile, here's an example of a "real queue":
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews...=mailsignoutmd
The French government currently hold the UK national energy policy to ransom and can continue to do that until after their elections next year.
The popularity rating of the "socialist" Hollande is at an all time low so he has no reason to help out the UK until after those elections in 2017.

So the US trade officials are incapable of working on more than one trade deal at a time. To quote another US president (Lyndon B Johnson), the officials clearly "can’t fart and chew gum at the same time."

Yes, I know the normal quote (Johnson talking disparagingly about Gerald Ford) is, "He can't walk and chew gum at the same time", but that's not what he actually said. :rofl:

America did us no favours in WWII, the assistance was dependent upon Britain relinquishing its empire, and America didn't even declare war on Germany, it was the other way round. FFS!

Ever heard of the USA's War Plan Red for a war with Britain and an invasion of Canada?

Maybe Britain shouldn't have stood up for the rest of Europe in 1939. Hitler didn't want war with the UK. If Lord Halifax (foreign secretary) had been made Prime Minister when Chamberlain resigned, instead of Churchill, we would have come to an understanding with Germany. Instead it cost us our empire, all our gold reserves and an awful lot more. Not to mention the loss of civilian and military life and loss of armed forces assets (ships, planes). What did Britain get out of it other than a gift of a Christmas tree on Trafalgar Square every year from Norway?

I Predict A War
 

Before the referendum I predict that this government will engage or attempt to engage this country in a war, most probably in Libya with the intention of rallying the voters to the flag/Government.


It was a tactic seen to work from the days of Thatcher in the Falklands and T.B. Liar was relentless in this most cynical of political tactics.

No doubt plans for Libya are in place
 

As per the last couple of posts, one of the functions of the military, any nations' military, is to plan for potential future conflicts.
It is the politicians who decide which possible future conflicts are to be implemented, irrespective of if those politicians are derived from a "representative democracy" (a substitute for a full-on-in-your-face democracy) or some other form of government.

Happy Saint George's day for this 23rd April 2016.

There's taking an alternate look at history, which I'm all for. Then there is this.

Does anyone reasonably believe that Nazi Germany would have stopped the advance as soon as their boots touched a line which said "British Empire"? I'll concede that, had the Empire stayed out it would have maybe had a stay of execution for a few decades but war would have broken out again and the Nazis would have come out on top. The British would be worse off, instead of losing Empire or gold they'd have lost everything.

The only way to avoid loosing it by force would have been to become complicit in the crimes of the Nazi regime. In doing so we'd have lost something intangible but vastly more valuable than empire, gold or homeland.

There is a certain irony that UK recent history, i.e. the past couple of hundred years or thereabouts, relates to dealing with the despot Napoleon in close cooperation with the Prussians; this was followed in fairly short order with a need to deal with the Prussians themselves via their new-found Empire building.

I can see the need for France and Germany to have some form of integrated "management", "government", "economy" or whatever else it takes to keep them from further attempts to dominate the European mainland as individual nations.
(My recent travels in the Alsace region have been a timely reminder).
This need for their integration does not extend to that of other nations however.

Should Britain leave the E.U. ???
 

After the current US president and likely the next US presidents recent statements, the Brexit crew are looking increasingly isolated.

Why?

Its not really for anyone to say, except for those involved, i.e leaders within the EU and UK citizens. What has it to do with the US? Nowt! Maybe they should concentrate on sorting out their owns problems instead of interfering in other peoples and countries, then we all might have a better life

Wayne

Well it's going off topic somewhat, but Britain was seen by Germany as a fellow aryan country, and one with a strong empire to back it up. Germany's eyes were always fastened on Lebensraum in the east, coupled with the Nazi hatred of communism. But I grant you that who knows what might have happened 20 years down the line. Despite the resources of the British Empire and its strong naval and air forces, it was ultimately Russia, not the Americans/Brits/Canadians, who defeated Germany on the ground—the western allies never faced more than one-third of the Wehrmacht.

Why did we get involved to support Poland? Why didn't we get involved to support Republican Spain when Germany and Italy were supporting Franco?

Some of the comments in this article made me chuckle

Post-Brexit trade deal with US could take 10 years, Obama warns - BBC News

"Countries could not "pull up the drawbridge" when faced with the migration crisis"

"Returning to the UK's place in the EU, Mr Obama said the US wanted the UK to be "at the table" influencing countries that might not see things from a US view."

"Despite criticism from pro-Brexit campaigners, he said he thought "ordinary British voters" would be interested in his thoughts on the UK and the EU."

I wonder what "Ordinary British Voters" look like?

Wayne

Because it was USA policy of the day to do so?
 

President Roosevelt's Campaign To Incite War in Europe
Within that article are some interesting contrasts made between Hitler and Roosevelt.

Blockades of trade, in various forms - physical navies or trade embargoes - have always been a favourite method of starting a conflict, just as we have in place with Russia at present.

You have to admire how the politicians can pull the strings
 

As a follow up to my last post in here, the author of my last link wrote another later analysis, presented in 2008, about "the good war"; WW2.
The 'Good War' Myth of World War Two
It is this very emotion that the POTUS played upon during these last few days.

Historians are not in agreement about very much at all to do with that period.

Great a link to an organisation established by a National Front member and widely accused of denying the Holocaust. IHR is also regarded as antisemitic and having links with neo Nazi groups doh

Not surprised. The "fear, uncertainty and doubt" of leaving the EU is clearly becoming a little less uncertain leading to more fear of Brexit. Inevitable that some will resort to even more extreme views.

Had unofficial confirmation this week that one of my clients, a major US multinational, have already established the plan to move their European HQ to Switzerland if we vote Brexit. Not if we leave; if the referendum votes "leave".

A couple of useful, perhaps even insightful, comments on recent news items.
Use of the word “Queue”:-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...pm_world_pop_b


And some commentary, analysis and general overview of some of the arguments, with a twist in the tale/tail:-
Why should we take advice from a president who has surrendered the world to chaos?


As for earlier comments herein related to writers on the internet, I read and assess the message without recourse to who the messenger happens to be; in other words, it is best to make up your own mind about the veracity of any particular piece of information.


It is salutary to know that traditional-minded, closed-shop type of people holding a particular ideology (whether they be MSM, historians, environmentalists or whatever) and all the other self-interested groups find their current orthodoxies under challenge – long may it continue.
In the specific two cases of the writings of Mark Weber to which I linked, he cites a wide range of traditional, well-known historians in his writings and he makes a strong case in each of the two articles, irrespective of the background history of the website for which he writes.


However, the overall point is that the current dude in the White House has done nothing different from his predecessors, but he has been far less subtle – possibly because he is winding down and seeing out his period of notice?

[QUOTE=Walkabout;536694]
In the specific two cases of the writings of Mark Weber to which I linked, he cites a wide range of traditional, well-known historians in his writings and he makes a strong case in each of the two articles, irrespective of the background history of the website for which he writes.
[QUOTE]

Your don't need to spend more than 10 minutes researching the IHR and Mark Weber to understand their agendas and attempts to change modern history through pseudo scholarly publications like their own Journal of Historical Review and their links with far right white supremacy movements doh

Mark Weber: The Professional Denier

I think I'll get my facts elsewhere thanks

Quite. Watch out for increasing demonisation of Russia over the coming months/years. The establishment mean to re-arm with new nukes and an enemy is required to justify this eye watering expenditure. Russia is it.

Quite statement to make by the US about us being back of the line for trade agreements, considering I've just been reading how much we spend with them.

Mostly on defence, which really takes the biscuit really. We are currently about to take delivery of F35 Lightning jets from them at a cost of £5billion for the first 14 aircraft.

What really stings here is our own manufacturer BAE Systems is currently announcing redundancies due to lack of defence spending. Given that previous governments sold our aircraft industries down the river when we were already technically ahead of the rest of the world, we have to resort to partnering foreign company's to build anything today.

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The SAAB Gripen would fit onto our new boats, the fish heads would get their flying pay and we wouldn't have to sign up to as many wars to get spare parts.

Andy

I was quite taken with Triumph's new Thruxton R and was in the mood to splash some cash on a sweet weekend bike such as this. Reading the test of the T120 in Bike magazine the journalist commented on the usual (new bike) poor fuelling caused by meeting EU stage 4 regulations. An easy fix with the right software however, the marketing director was quoted saying the ECU has anti-tamper software mandated by the EU making this impossible.


As most bikers will know, the EU five years ago attempted legislation to criminalise us for making the slightest modification to our own bikes/property, institute a surveillance regime compelling dealers and their mechanics to report us to the authorities and implement draconian penalties such as confiscation of our bikes for transgressions. Needles to say, the UK would gold plate such legislation, as is their way.


Happily, organised protests managed to water down the legislation and limit it to smaller bikes.


Confused, I wrote to the Triumph director quoted and good enough, received the following reply within 24 hours:

Dear Mr xxx


Thank you for making contact and raising the issue of anti-tamper as featured in Bike Magazine. I must also point out that I am marketing manager and not director as quoted!


Triumph ride by wire motorcycles do come with anti-tamper feature, this has been introduced by Triumph ahead of EU legislation coming in. You are correct, it is not mandated at present.


I hope this helps


Kind regards


Haydn

Clearly, Triumph are ahead of the game and know what's coming. Sadly for Triumph (and me) I will not be buying a new Triumph. The only way we can avoid such draconian legislation affecting us here in the UK, improve our bikes and freedoms is to vote leave.

Perhaps Obama will place the UK at the back of the queue for further military action in Iraq, Syria and Libya at the next NATO meeting.


We certainly need to be out of the queue for forming the EU armed forces.

Stop worrying about what Obama says and start looking forward to hearing what Marine le Pen has to say when she visits and how she'll be supporting Brexit.

Funny old thing
 

It is reported that the French decision on the future of Hinckley Point C nuclear power station (due next month and key to current UK energy policy) has been postponed until September, conveniently after June 23.
It is not the first postponement this year alone.

Whatever happened to Communism ideology?
 

So:-
I don't think that it is off topic, certainly not fully off topic.
Britain declared war on Germany in 1939 ostensibly to free Poland; Britain lost that declared war aim to the USSR.
Since then, research has shown that it was the then president of the USA who was fermenting the call to war in Europe for his own political aims. Germany was the chosen geo-political target, Italy was not specifically so and Franco's Spain got a bye.
In similar manner the public message of the American civil war was “to free the people from slavery”; in reality, the actual aim was to form an alliance of the individual States of that land under a single federal government via the imposition of a single currency, the latter being the single most significant factor in defining what a nation state is; a classic case of “ever closer union” by military means.
The same “ever closer union” aim is to be applied across Europe by means of economic conflict; in a word, homogeneous debt slavery.
The overall lesson is that populations should not conflate the public statements of their overlords (representative democracy, fascist or communist) with the real geo-political aims of their governments. In short, the publicly declared fine principles become marginal, at best, when it comes to real government decisions and actions and all politicians' promises have a “use before expiry date”.
Also, politicians will take stances within international affairs when they are struggling with their own domestic issues and their electorates (the USA is a current case in point that comes around every 4 years, Argentina is another); it is so much easier to pontificate to a crowd for which you have no actual responsibilities than to deal with those to whom you owe your position.


The USSR also won WW2 militarily, as Stalin reminded Churchill et al on various occasions.
Stalin was sufficiently ruthless that he sacrificed any number of his own people, that was necessary in his eyes, in order to achieve his aims; one estimate is 20 million.
As just one instance,.during the battle of Stalingrad some 10,0000 Soviet troops were shot by their own side to encourage the others to continue fighting.


The USSR also won the post-1945 cold war “peace” in terms of their political aims with their “land grab” of Eastern Europe (for 40+ years only) but it was clear that the soviets had little to offer to the subjugated populations; ironically, those East European nations found their own ways of throwing off the burden of communism, more or less led by the fall of the Berlin wall in 1989 – that process was relatively peaceful in that no one declared yet another European “hot” war in order to liberate such nations. In other words, internal unrest was sufficient to bring these various disparate countries to find their own solutions to their conditions – and that process is ongoing and far from finished.
From Hungary or Austria, for instance, in the SE of Europe to, say, Norway in the North (yes, the latter is not in the EU but it is in the Shengen area) none of them needs a homogeneous Europe of “ever closer union” in order to satisfy their own populations.
Nor does the Ukraine, which is currently part of the intended empire building of the central European powers.
The EU/EC are not prepared to allow individual countries to evolve at their own pace; rather, in the Ukraine they interfered to bring down a legitimately elected government.
The people of the Netherlands recently held a referendum on a Ukrainian related issue and decided by 2/3 of the voters that they do not want this EU-sponsored deal with the Ukraine. It remains to be seen if their own government opts to ignore their electorate and support the proposals to bail out the bankrupt Ukraine.
References:
The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers/Paul Kennedy
Stalingrad/Beevor

I was banned from Pistonheads.com for posting this on their forum. They gave me the following reason:

Are you bothered? (to mis-quote Ms Tate).

It is reported that a number of the UK MSM have curtailed or banned comments to their articles in their online media; freedom of speech is a precious concept and it is not always around when you want it.

Some other news outlets went with this item yesterday:-
UK Better Off Outside EU, Economists Say
Positive thinking in place of the usual scare mongering.