Well, you might have noticed one is a poll of polls and one is a single poll included within the poll of polls.

So as usual your spouting shite. Not that difficult.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Can people please refrain from personal insults and childish trolling...

Anyway..

Here's a video to cheer you up.

https://www.facebook.com/theguardian...6897629498005/

Cameron 'will hand out 25 peerages after the EU referendum to reward his supporters f
 

...in other news, Westminster scuttlebutt has it that Dodgy Dave is expected to create around 25 new Conservative peers within days of the EU referendum. One source reported: ‘We’ve been told the Tories are keen to reward In campaigners, and party donors who are refusing to back the Brexit campaign.’

"Vote remain - the establishment wills it and has ways of taking care of of its' supporters"

This is the kind of ethics & behaviour you will reward if you vote remain. Vote Leave.

Nice.

Genuine little keyboard warrior aren't you. Go on, post us another pie chart up, we are interested, honest.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well said, this thread has way too many trolls in it.

Well, I'd say you can rather fool people into believing that because they don't understand that you were actually proving something completely different.

But that's why checks and balances are so important in science (like everywhere). When we publish something, it'll have to go through a peer-review process, ie. a paper will be reviewed by a group of selected referees. Whilst for e.g. empirical papers that cannot imply an actual check of the estimations, it implies a plausibility check. But once a paper is published, it is open to scientific debate. And believe me, there's a lot of it. Often it involves actual replications of the empirical estimation to verify or falsify results. And often, wrong results are actually getting detected and dismissed that way. A famous example was Reinhart/ Rogoff (2010), a paper arguing for an unsustainability threshold of the debt-to-GDP ratio of an economy, which was dismissed as it couldn't be replicated. Long story short: Economics isn't a perfect science and we can't predict everything and sometimes we're wrong (so are engineers, medical scientists and physicists BTW) but at least in academia there are rigorous quality checks. The problem is only that those making political or business decisions are too often ignoring the academic debate, because it is slow and often doesn't deliver directly applicable results. That this fundamental research is yet useful, unfortunately not too many people appreciate.


They actually are fairly consistent, but obviously vary across the different samples used. The message stays the same: Young, urban, left-wing and more highly educated people are more likely to vote remain. That's not really too surprising, given that the out campaign is mainly driven by an anti-establishment sentiment. But I will have to add that the poll of polls might be a bit outdated: it's from last year. But generally the main result didn't change too much. That is: There tends to be a marginal lead for the in campaign, but it is likely to be within statistical errors. So it probably won't tell us much.

On a more general point on survey data, as empiricists tend to say: "Never trust survey data". It tends to be very biased as subtle changes in wording can have big impacts and also suffers from bias as what people say tends to differ from what they vote for. One can correct for some of the biases but there are obviously limits: If my data is a bit rubbish, I won't get great results. That's why I think there's a point in the criticism of these polls, and particularly the polls being over-quoted. I accept they are the only measure of public opinion we have, but I don't see how having another marginal poll published every other day should enhance anything.

Apologies for another lengthy post and remember keepcalm

Goodnight!

Well put Paul, and believe me I am calm.
I hit the ignore button after my last comment! Silence is bliss!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think there are some interesting factors in many of the polls. For example, Remain routinely generates a bigger lead in telephone polls compared to internet polls, where their lead is marginal at best. It would be interesting to understand what is driving that.

I agree. I was surprised by that as well. One would probably expect the opposite as, one could argue, an online poll would likely yield more radical results. But then perhaps it has something to do with the average age of the sample groups? I don't know. But also, I'm not a pollster, so this isn't exactly my area of expertise.

There are definitely some interesting insights the polls give. But perhaps the way they are handled rather than that they exist is a problem. It is the best measure of public opinion we have, but it is still often not a good one. Mainly because public opinion is extremely difficult to measure. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have the polls, but rather that we should use them very carefully and I'm not too sure if that happens. One example: Many governments in Europe were clearly (and rightfully) alarmed by a surge in extremism so they reacted by adopting some of it. The result: They lost yet more votes. They just followed public opinion instead of shaping it and trying to explain why we do things the way we do and standing up to what they believe in. Polls are definitely useful for research, but in politics I think it's too often distracting politicians from what they should do.

59% of Americans reject President Obama's "back of the Queue" threat
 

YouGov’s Portrait of America polling

YouGov's "Portrait of America polling reveals some uncomfortable truths for Remainiacs:-

As well as rejecting EU-type arrangements for their own nation, and choosing Margaret Thatcher as their favourite international leader of recent decades, 59% of Americans also rejected President Obama’s suggestion that the UK should go to the “back of the queue” in trade talks if it voted to leave the EU.



http://uqvk92z67p11sbpjb3nr4qo1.wpen...11-790x476.png

...also follow the link and you see that less than a third of American's would support EU-type arrangements for the USA.

http://uqvk92z67p11sbpjb3nr4qo1.wpen...t-19.04.23.png

and 30% of republicans voted to bomb a mythological city

Thus proving that 30% are idiots doh

Another $, another day:-
today it is the price of your Easyjet holiday which will sky-rocket according to our esteemed leader who has been delivering this message to the coralled Easyjet employees - the same company which leapt in with a letter to all employees with the usual blah, blah, blah.

While travelling in France recently I saw the piles of tyres and stocks of timber stacked at key "rond point" during street demonstrations.
Not something that is reported here though:-
https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2016/05...nche-of-facts/
I also experienced the start of the queues at the fuel stations in the vicinity of Rouen, last Saturday.
At the time I thought it was just the rush to the pumps before Sunday closures.

Footnote: there are some very good contributions in the comments to that blog; far better than the junk perpetrated by the professional writers in the MSM for instance.

The same blogger tears into the stuff about pollsters (we all recall how well they did last year during the UK general election and how contrite those pollsters became after such monumental cockups made in their chosen trade).
https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2016/05...isinformation/

Maybe they are on Salisbury plain in preparation for the vote next month?

Anyway, I can't imagine anyone would want to put their life on the line for that blue flag; no bodies repatriated to the UK were ever draped in the flag of NATO.
It does make quite a good aiming point though.

Uncertain investors withdraw billions from Europe
Some US investors are looking at the Europe and thinking its a basket case
A lot of investors have cut exposure to Europe during the year. There are political concerns, political risks in Spain and Portugal and weakening data.
Investors are leaving because they are tired of low growth
Poor economic figures that suggest a eurozone recession is a possibility on top of rising brexit fears

Extracts taken from The Times

More reason to leave

Wayne

...except for here in the UK where today where it was shown that Britain attracted record levels of foreign direct investment last year, research shows.

More than a thousand FDI projects landed in the Britain last year, according to EY’s annual attractiveness survey.


This is the largest number of projects secured since records began two decades ago. The survey showed that the UK was the leading recipient of FDI in 2015, with a fifth of all European projects heading to Britain last year, putting it ahead of Germany, France and Spain.


ha ha - project fear hasn't worked on the people with the money bier - again Dodgy Dave has been caught in a lie.

One thing is certain.. both sides are spouting utter bollocks. No one knows what will happen either way. And no one will until it does or doesn't happen.

Sent from my G7-L01 using Tapatalk

Time to polish your tin foil hats :rofl:

It's an interesting perspective and I empathise with their sentiment. Thing is though, unless the American people are going to get a post-Brexit referendum on their relationship with the UK, the poll is pretty irrelevant so not that uncomfortable reading for those intending to vote Remain.

Although I doubt that the US-UK relationship will be particularly high on anyone's agenda in November, what's more valid is what Trump or Clinton or Sanders (or Elizabeth Warren) think.

I'm not up on their opinion, assuming they've expressed one.

It has to be said
 

In the case of the current encumbents of:
A. The Bank of England
B. The UK Chancellor of the Exchequer
They each have 100% records of being wrong in their public pronouncements.
Of course, these are two of the main participants in the great debate who continue to claim divine insight up to 15 years ahead.

Your social science has yet to earn it's spurs and anyone in another profession who was consistently wrong all of the time could hardly expect to keep their job.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dismal_science

It's not that economists are always wrong. Now, the ones in the media really tend to be...

1) Politicians: They are more concerned with looking nice to the people in the present rather than being right. For a politician it's far more important to be liked by the people than being right so they say what they perceive as the public's wishes when they speak. When the realization that they were wrong comes, many water already passed under the bridge and they can spin it in multiple ways.

2) Academics: Those who have always lived and worked in the pure academic environment and have no experience in the real world, those who have never worked in positions where their income depends on their accuracy, also tend to be wrong. Reality is far more complex than the sterile academic conditions are able to replicate.

Then you have several others, regretfully very rarely seen in the media anywhere, who work in positions where their expert opinions are important and people's money along with their own depends on what they say, write and do. These are worth listening. Also the ones who have an impressive resumé of earnings due to their efforts, mostly in the financial markets, are worth listening. Consistently earning money in the financial markets throughout a period of several years is the ultimate test about one's understanding of the economy for the way markets move is the sum of all forces acting upon it. Only those who truly understand them can earn money consistently and, therefore, understand the economy and have the ability to look forward to the future.

It's not that economy is like astrology. Far from that. One just must look for the answers in the right places instead of feeding on what those either with an agenda or inexperienced in real world conditions (or both!) say, not in order to enlighten the public but to promote their interests. Don't expect accurate previsions to the third decimal point. Economy is not engineering. From those who indeed know what they are doing, you can expect, however, a very high degree of accuracy and also the presentation of different possibilities according to this or that scenarios occurring in the future. Also these tend to be much less dogmatic than the former.

Quite so.

Such words as economics and engineering are easily conflated by those who wish to claim, or just imply, that they have some special insight or even powers to foresee the future in what are complex human relationships.
Only the Good Lord Harry knows why we put them into positions of influence and power.

In other instances, "businesses" are referred to as "industries" as if to imply that there is some form of value added to the real economy rather than dealing in the system of shadow banking and financialisation; the latter being part of the globalisation taking place at present, in my view - all being discussed over in "the other thread" so I will desist for now.

Such as Peter Hargreaves, for example.
http://citywire.co.uk/money/peter-ha...mpaign/a907486

Everybody should read this to be better informed. By Geoffory White

Some of my friends and relations have told me they will vote for Brexit in our referendum. At the risk of falling out with them I intend to vote for us to remain in the EU. Here's a bit of pre-EU history to help explain my position.

I grew up in a time of post-war austerity. My country, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, was broke and virtually in ruins. Germans were still "the enemy" in children's games. Bomb sites and abandoned air-raid shelters were our playgrounds. Nine years after the war ended butter, meat and sugar were still rationed. One couldn't buy sweets without coupons issued by the government.
Portugal and Spain were fascist dictatorships. In Spain unauthorised gatherings of more than 3 people were illegal. A military junta later seized power in Greece. Half of Europe was sealed off behind the Iron Curtain. I remember lying in bed at night, in my parents home, and hearing the roar of American warplanes flying overhead on their Cold War missions. We were told that, if the Russians unleashed their missiles, we would get 4 minutes' warning of Armageddon.
In Britain our currency was weak. We had exchange controls. Travellers were allowed to take only £25 sterling out of the country plus a limited amount in foreign currency. On return, any left over had to be sold back to an authorised trader. The details were entered in one's passport. (See photo.)

The UK still had the death penalty despite some obvious and irreversible miscarriages of justice. In France they still executed condemned prisoners by cutting their heads off. In Spain they used strangulation.

The press and the BBC, (there was only the BBC), were not free from government interference and books, films and plays were censored. Women were paid less than men for equivalent work and landlords could turn away black and Irish people with impunity. For private acts of "gross indecency" gay men were sent to prison.

During the 1950s, six similarly devastated European countries were determined that the catastrophe of war between them should never be repeated. They decided to work towards creating a single European economy. The result was never "just a trading agreement" as some detractors now suggest. The Treaty of Rome, signed in 1957, provided for free movement of goods, services, people and capital, with the stated aim of "closer relations between the States".
The UK was invited to participate from the outset, but Prime Minister Attlee rather scornfully declined, thus missing the opportunity to influence the future development of Europe. However, by 1961 it had become obvious that the economies of "the Six", (France, West Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg), were growing faster than ours, so we applied to join. It took 9 years of negotiations, (and 2 vetoes), before terms were agreed. The United Kingdom officially joined the European Communities on 1st January 1973.

In the 1980s many of our skilled workers took advantage of the free movement of people and migrated to West Germany, whose economy had already overtaken ours. These British " migrants" were the inspiration for a popular television series, "Auf Wiedersehen, Pet".
Since 1945 there have been wars in Europe, but none between countries that were members of the European Union. Despite global economic storms, the EU's citizens in 28 independent countries enjoy greater prosperity and greater freedom of movement, freedom from discrimination, freedom from conflict, freedom to trade across borders and freedom of expression than at any time in history.
So far no member state has ever applied to leave the EU. There have always been candidates to join but to succeed they must have democracy, the rule of law, a market economy and guarantees for the protection of minorities and human rights. They also need the support of ALL existing members, including us, without which they cannot join. In my opinion it would be a shame if Britain were to turn its back on Europe, give up its voice and influence, and opt for an uncertain future. So...I shall vote IN on 23rd June.Attachment 17670


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Regarding the previous post.
 

I too grew up in similar conditions from a slightly younger age: I recall most of what is described in the last posting and I expect that my elder brother remembers the rest.
But my conclusion is different, as outlined in earlier discourse herein; in essence, where the EU has come from is a poor indicator of where it is going.
Quite obviously, the EU did not invent Europe which has been around a lot longer than the EU/EEC/Common Market which was lied about by Edward Heath before signing up to the project.

Incidentally, there is no "EU citizen" as mentioned* in that text, at least not yet.

*Implied, is a better term in this context - it depends how the sentence is taken by the reader.

This article mixes a lot of things and tries to make us believe that all evolution in Britain came as a result of the EEC. It's preposterous if not insulting for change came on these topics long, very long, before the EEC started meddling on the way countries governed their internal affairs. Let's go over a few points.


That can be blamed, mostly, on the almost communist experience that happened in the UK under Clement Attlee.


I really hate the so loose usage of the term "fascist" but let's move forward for it isn't the worst in this sentence. Both dictatorships ended long before both countries accessed the EEC. In Portugal it ended in April 25th 1974 with a revolution and in Spain, after the death of General Franco on November 20th 1975, a slow transition started. Both countries only accessed the EEC in 1986. Also, Portugal was already a member of the EFTA since the early 1960s.


Not true, at least the way the writer presents it.


Oh dear, if it was weak then (and it was compared to 50 years earlier) what is it now? Throughout the 1950s the British Pound was worth 2.85USD. Nowadays it overs around 1GBP to 1.50USD and it has been lower in the past months.


The last country to abolish the death penalty in the EEC was France, in 1977, when it was already a member for a very long time. They still used the guillotine. The UK ended the death penalty for civilians in 1965, long before accession to the EEC and in Spain it ended in 1978, also long before accession to the EEC. It's also not true that the method of execution in Spain was strangulation. It was something called "garrote vil" which kills by severing the spine and only if very poorly done by strangulation, just like hanging. I don't know how to translate "garrote vil" into english.


It still happens not only in EU countries but all over the world.


Yes, they were, until 1967, long before accession to the EEC. In Germany thew were sent to prison until later than that. Until 1969 there was fierce persecution of homosexuals in Germany. From then onwards things slowed a bit but only in 1994 any reference to homosexuality was removed from German books. Decaffeinated versions of the nazi version (stricter than the previous Prussian version) of paragraph 175 were implemented in 1969 and 1973. Germany was a member of the EEC since its inception.


Norway applied to join but, in the end, after a referendum in 1972 in which the people refused the accession, they stayed out. Another referendum in 1994 yielded similar results.


That is true now. It wasn't true when the UK joined the, then, EEC.

Plooking,
A second vote of thanks are due for dispelling the myths, innuendo and assorted dis-information.
And so rapidly!

For the greater good of the Common Market
 

Just to add.
"Weak currencies" is relative of course and, for fiat currencies, fixed at a particular point in time by the free market, with an element of interference from central banks at the behest of their governments.

As such, "weak, weaker" are not fully indicative of what is best for a nation at any particular stage of it's economic cycle - of course, for 28 countries there are 28 stages, all somewhat different.

The most useful thing that Germany could do for the Eurozone and the EU, and for Europe is to leave the Euro and re-adopt the D Mark.
Will they do that for the common good?

Excellent post. And to think there are people even here calling for the abandonment of Human Rights and EU integration, the total disregard of 20th century history and how we ended up were we are now is baffling.

Yep those rotten "communists" who created the NHS and welfare state, how dare they improve the nations health and provide free healthcare for all!

Thank you, Walkabout. :)

I like public debate on several subjects. I find it very interesting and we can all learn from these debates. What I utterly dislike are the lies, the propagation of myths and several other ways to misled others. That is not conducive to learning and to informed decisions. It is insulting for it diminishes others' knowledge and capacity to form a decision given all the true facts.

As for rapidly, well, these were easy things. That thing is insulting to the point of lying on basic items. It does not even go into hard, complex and subjective points. It lies on basic things of commons knowledge and that I find abusive to readers.

Well, even Stalin, a murderer crook as a whole, had his positive points. The negative, however, dwarfs the positive. In any event, the NHS, like all other systems existing in Europe, are based on the national health service created by Mr. Bismarck. The same is true for the welfare state. Now, I can't imagine anyone, with any stretch of imagination, calling Otto von Bismarck a communist.

Ah yes, how very intellectual.

The relation is established against the USD. The Bretton Woods agreement defined the United States Dollar as reference currency for all others and, to this day, all exchanges between currency pairs are done thru the USD. For instance, if you exchange pounds for yens, the back-office mechanism is exchanging pounds for US dollars and then US dollars for yens. If you look closely, the GBP/JPY exchange rate is equal to GBP/USD * USD/JPY.

Also, until 1971 the GBP did not free float. Its rates were fixed against the USD. The free float came after that.

Now, nowadays and for the last 5-7 years, yes, the forex market has been heavily manipulated by central banks. That was not the case before. However, this I must stress, central bank intervention does not change much the true market value of a currency. Historically intervention has been useless in the medium and long terms.


That is one of the falacies of the Euro, the assumption that a common currency could benefit all equally.


Not so fast. Anyway, the same problem would remain for Portugal and France are very different economies. On another note, for certain countries, like Portugal, a weak currency while appearing as a good thing, given that the Portuguese can't govern themselves, would be terrible and lead to further impoverishment.

One thing is to use a one-time currency devaluation as a way to boost exports and economic development. A whole different thing is to enter the cycle of devaluation-inflation which is what Portuguese governments did since 1974 until the introduction of the Euro. This leads to an increasingly diminished value of a country's currency thus making those who use it poorer.

Do you have a short or a selective memory?


Cyprus bailout deal with EU closes bank and seizes large deposits



It was only three years ago the EU that, in what even Russian officials have repeatedly compared to Soviet-era expropriation, the EU appropriated Cyprus Bank deposits – anyone with over €100,000, under draconian terms aimed at preventing the Mediterranean country becoming the first country forced out of the single currency and a €100 limit was imposed on ATM withdrawals in Cyprus.

Quote from a Guardian article at the time:-

Alexandra Salmani, 32, moved to Cyprus eight months ago to escape the financial crisis in Greece. She said: "We came here to find a better life, and it's exactly the same thing as in Greece. Everywhere I go there's crisis – I'm telling all my friends that I'll go to Germany next. Someone has to learn to say no to Merkel. They saw a rich country, decided to take their money, and destroy them. They are not human."

You remainiacs are frightened of risk and cite it often as your chief motivation to remain; Cyprus was a tiny, tiny economy but consider that in addition to Greece Italy, Spain and Portugal are well on their way to financial collapse and you think because we are not in the Euro we will not be asked to save them and participate in the inevitable bail-out? Dream on...

EU Plots Europe-Wide Tax ID Numbers
 

The EU is laying the groundwork for centrally planned National Insurance numbers for every taxpayer in Europe. The proposal was passed by the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee last night, and chillingly calls for a ‘European Taxpayer Identification Number’ to keep track of every EU citizen. This is the European Commission text:

“Proper identification of taxpayers is essential to effective exchange of information between tax administrations. The creation of European Taxpayer Identification Number (EU TIN) would provide the best means for this identification. It would allow any third party to quickly, easily and correctly identify and record TINs in cross-border relations and serve as a basis for effective automatic exchange of information between member states tax administrations.”

Brussels wants the ability to track every EU taxpayer, laying the foundations for a new European tax…


This also MUST re-open thewayonce again tocompulsory ID cards for UK (soon to be EU?) citizens


The report also calls for the EU to take over member states’ corporate taxation powers with a common corporation tax base, banning sovereign states from increasing their competitiveness by cutting corporation tax below 15%. This is a direct attack on sovereignty and attempt to create a new, centralised EU tax system…


UKIP’s Steven Woolfe says:

“If we stay in the EU, we will be forced to pay a European tax. Plans for an EU taxpayer ID system – effectively a new continental National Insurance number – demonstrates their real ambitions for further integration. They are laying the foundations for an EU tax system.”

We simply must: VOTE LEAVE

Fastship, reading your post made me realize that that item slipped my mind when replying to that absurd thing earlier.


Having already demonstrated the lie of the first sentence I move now to the rest of the paragraph. The same as said for Britain was true all over the world. Capital controls were one of the fixtures of the Bretton Woods system and, therefore, present in all Western European countries as well as in the USA, Canada and Australia. They were the rule until the early 1970s and, as a matter of fact, the UK kept them until the late 1970s.

Yes, and in trying to stick with case studies relevant to the in/out debate (rather than general economic theory/practice) I offer:

1. The Grexit issue continues more or less unabated following on from 12 months ago.
There is an interesting commentary below from a world reknowned economist.
Europe’s Attack on Greek Democracy
I feel that you won't agree with every premise therein, but it does make an interesting perspective.
Certainly, it is a well informed comment on the issues of 12 months ago which continue today, unabated and virtually non-debated in the UK.

2. Today, we have further mention of the buzz word "austerity" in the UK.
In truth, the UK has yet to implement such a programme if the definition is accepted of "reducing the national debt".
The UK national debt continues to rise.

Stiglitz is precisely one of the Academia economists to whom I referred earlier with a touch of politician. As a general rule he has been historically wrong when speaking about real world conditions. Let's not forget that he is one of those who praised Chavez economic rule in Venezuela, the Syriza confrontational attitude when they took power and also tried to meddle in Spain whose subsequent growth came totally against his expectations.

I don't waste my time reading him. As soon as I opened the link and noticed the name Stiglitz didn't read further.

On what concerns Greece, there was no real case for bailing them out then and what is happening is exactly what was expected. They were bailed out (again!) merely for political reasons, specially because Donald Tusk didn't let it go any other way when it all pointed to a lack of agreement. Given that Mrs. Merkel also wanted to hold on to Greece, when things looked desperate she grabbed the hand offered by Tusk and an agreement (or sort of...) happened. It would had been prefereable for everybody just letting the Greeks fall. Including for the Greeks themselves. There are societies which, because of their very nature, are not able to be rich and prosperous. The way Greeks approach money, work, state, citizenship, etc, etc, is mediocre to say the least. They won't ever be prosperous. Now, the Euro is designed considering that all its members work towards their own prosperity which, in turn, leads to the prosperity of the whole. It's an utopia, of course, but it is the thinking behind the whole shebang. Now, this is true for Germans, Dutch and some others but far from true when we speak about Greeks or Portuguese. The rules of the Euro are alien to these societies and, therefore, they are not able to function within them. They don't even understand them and the results are those which we all see. I think it would be better for everybody to just allow them to exit the Euro and live life the way they know, the way they can according to their culture and the way they want. Any harm is of their own making and, with time (decades, not years), maybe (or maybe not) they can, on their own, move forward towards other paths.


What has been coined as "Austerity" is merely going back to living within one's means instead of borrowing and living the present with the future people's earnings.

Accepted on both counts, with some reservations about the "future childrens' earnings" element.
Those points were posted by me as a means of adding to the discourse.

In his final sentence of his article, Stiglitz does refer to an issue which has received little mention here so far:-
"Greeks might gain the opportunity to shape a future that, though perhaps not as prosperous as the past, is far more hopeful than the unconscionable torture of the present."

A few other countries could replace the word "Greece" in that thought.
This is related to your earlier point about Portugal/France.

That is more or less what I say in the paragraph added after posting originally. I agree that if they go out of the Euro they will loose any chance of being prosperous. But, then again, within the Euro they aren't for they don't know how to live with a strong currency as the Euro so it goes more or less to the same. There are caveats, however. If Greece leaves the Euro, the new dracma will be worthless and so Greek society will go back easily 50-70 years in living standards. And yes, I'm fully aware of their conditions after World War II and from then onwards. They will easily revert back to that.

It's the first time, though, that I see Stiglitz assuming that they will be less prosperous out of the Euro rather than in. It seems that age is being good for him. At least it's bringing him realism and wisdom. It's a start.

Now, where I don't agree is on the "hopeful future" thing. The hope would last only the first week if that. Then, when people start realising that all they have in their wallets is colored toilet paper, hope goes down the drain very fast. I totally assume that there is a strong chance even of a civil war in Greece following their exit of the Euro but, then again, is of their own making and societies must be allowed to solve their disputes themselves and live as they wish. It's their problem more than anyone else's.

Mr Panos has the answer!
 

Greek People "Genius!"

:biggrin:

[Well, this is The HUBB PUB after all!]

Thanks for sharing this and my deep respect for Geoffrey for his words and courage!

It is shocking how much our freedoms, our peace and our prosperity is taken for granted by some and how little understanding of history, economics and common sense there is. I for my part am gonna stop trying to disprove all of these ludicrous statements, as frankly facts are being made up along the way. Just one example for the nonsense that's been written:

This is no big revelation but just simple algebra: USD cancels out. It would work with "pink bunnies" instead of "USD". Needless to say, the rest is also wrong.

Another one is this:

i'm sure Franco was a delight! And indeed, there are no parallels to Mussolini's fascismo. None at all! Franco was a moderate. A man of the people! So, it's OK moving a bit into that direction, cause it wasn't really that bad.


Absolutely! I recently read an article on the Weimar Republic: Many people tend to forget that the NSDAP started off as a grassroots anti-establishment movement and over more than a decade its influence on public opinion, together with socioeconomic factors and a xenophobic, antisemite and nationalistic sentiment have led to the atrocities that followed. This is not to draw a direct comparison to current debates, that would be inaccurate. But the very fact that some of the sentiments and campaign slogans reappear, not only in the Brexit discussion, but accross Europe (or even the western world), should worry people. It should worry them a lot!

No, it is not. While much of the Bretton Woods system died, some parts of it are still alive. The conversion of all currencies being done via the USD (I don't even know how could it be any different with the unconvertibles...) and the USD being the reference for all others, however, is something which kept in existence and is still real to this day. Mostly due to the USD being the reserve currency of the world (thus having the required liquidity worldwide to settle any transaction) and, therefore, the most practical as reference but also because the USD replaced gold on this role after the end of the direct convertibility of the USD to gold.


I did not and will not enter into the discussion if Franco was good or bad. The point is merely it being fascism or not. There are similarities but also differences. Francoism was similar to Mussolini's fascism but not a fac simile. The true fascists in Spain, the Falange, were only one part of the regime and, as a matter of fact, they never held any of the powerful ministries, this being, Finance and Economy, Foreign Affairs (after the end of WWII) or Defense, having always being relegated only to social ministries and after 1958 their importance diminished over time. If we talk about Portugal's Salazarism then it's a whole different thing. The only similar point was corporativism. Other than that, Salazar's dictatorship was very different even from Franco's. The true fascists in Portugal, Integralismo Lusitano, were, as a matter of fact, strong opponents to Salazar's government and a true headache for him while they lasted which was only until the mid-late 1930s. From then onwards the fascist movement in Portugal was disbanded and had no influence neither in the regime nor in the society whatsoever. Their leader, Rolão Preto, attempted occasional come-backs but never had the least success.

Who would care to disagree with this man?
 

This is the guy who was mis-represented by the staff of number 10 Downing st a few months ago:-

Former British military commanders rallying for a Brexit

The treaty of Rome
 

It was a blank contract when signed:-
BBC NEWS | Europe | How divided Europe came together
and, therefore, not valid.

Thats good. Why on earth anyone would think we need a European Army is beyond me. What a waste of time and money...All this is doing is giving some No Mark in the EU a job to do and paying them a stupid pay scale for interfering in other countries armed forces. Plus it is taking away more power from countries and giving more say to the Weasels in Brussels. It will be very detrimental to our Forces if this were to happen. The EU have no backbone and way and if it does it is made of glass with a bit of yellow tinting.
We have NATO which is sufficient if not better. We can get just the same done and individual countries will have a say over their armed forces......But then again that takes the Dictatorship out of the the EU's hands

Wayne

I am totally for Brexit and will be voting that way but I think it will be like flogging a dead horse. Because I don't think people in the country have the b@lls to say leave and they will vote for the life they know rather than a little bit of uncertainty until we as a country find our feet again. But I think what they fail to realise is that the life they know is going to change. The EU is gradually taking over more and more.
EU army, more control
EU Tax numbers, more control
I read somewhere EU police, more control
Bailing out of Greece (now they owe the EU and are in their pocket), more control
I suppose if I did more research I could find more.

It will be a shame when the day comes when we are sold out and just become a state within the EU and we loose all our countries identity...because it will happen.
We have been to war twice to defend our rights and to protect the people of the EU, I think they forget that when they are trying to roll us over. Yes I know people will think I am talking crap, but all of us are entitled to our own opinion, and after defending this country (this country not the EU) for 22 years I am entitled to mine.
Yes we vote for MEP's but we do not vote for the select few who 'so called' run the place, why is that, that is not democracy
Why have the EU never had to account for the monies they spend (waste)? Are they above it all?
Why so much hassle over trade?
What gives that snivelling wretch Junker the right to dictate to other countries?
Why won't they let the UK help its ailing Steel industry? Instead they are letting cheap Chinese sh!t3 come in to the EU
Why is it that other countries can catch more fish in our waters than we can?
Why are we paying Billions of £'s to support other countries? (When it could be better spent on our country) Surely if they can't afford to be in the so called "Club" then they should be asked to leave
Why are people claim benefits for children who are not even living in the UK?
Yes they might be little trivial things...But they all add up and if you think its right to do then fine

Yes I suppose younger generation will want to stay because the don't know anything different, but the older generation do. (or the majority of) It quite summed it up for the me the other morning and I think it was on BBC Breakfast when they were interviewing a family who were split over Brexit and the daughter said I am voting to stay because we get visa free travel (or words to that effect)....well if thats all she has to worry/think about!?

Wayne

I couldn't care less whether we leave the Euro set up or not. Honestly, I just don't care. My life experience to date tells me that politicians are twats and none of them can be trusted no matter what they say. They will all voice their opinion, some will make a more convincing effort than others, but ultimately they couldn't give a toss what the ordinary person on the street thinks.
I have been eligible to vote for many, many years and I have never done it. I am somewhat disappointed in myself that I actually 'voted' on this poll :thumbdown:

Needless to say I chose the 'I don't care' option. :thumbup1:

Ain't that the truth...

I keep thinking back to a quote by Mark Twain.

"If voting made any difference, they wouldn't let us do it"

:mad:

Sent from my G7-L01 using Tapatalk

New ONS figures out this morning show that between December 2014 and December 2015 net migration was 330,000, up 20,000. Three times the government’s immigration target…
270,000 EU citizens migrated to Britain last year. Net EU migration was 184,000, an increase of 10,000 on the previous year.
The number of Romanian and Bulgarian migrants more than tripled from 17,000 to 52,000.
Remember, the true EU immigration figure is 250,000-a-year higher.

Stiffen those sinews Old Bean :)


We are going to win this and as our colonial cousins are wont to say “win big”. There is an understandable tendency when under attack by the relentless barrage from the 1%'s and their co-ordinated (by “Sir” Lynton Crosby – another of our colonial cousins) machine to feel disheartened but you know the difference between right & wrong, let that and that alone sustain you. You would not be a BREXITER if you didn't.


However, if you want a little extra third party encouragement let me share this with you; in a previous life I was a Options Trader, those people whom you used to see in trading pits screaming and making unfathomable (and sometimes VERY fathomable) hand gestures at one another! I know the city and its' cynicism and values – to wit PROFIT. It is the only value they have. The NASDAQ is a stock market many will have heard of. For the last three months they have been conducting a tracking poll asking for expectations for the June 23 EU referendum. Note that they do not have a stake in the referendum or a bias and only report the results in their poll, which have been heavily in favour of Brexit (see latest Brexit poll results). What has been most glaring is the disparity between their poll and other on-line polls vs. public polls and bookmaker odds. Remember that the respondents are traders – they have no other motivation in their judgement other than profit i.e. where they are going to place their money based on their belief of the referendum outcome.


This disparity has led to the respondents to express one common concern, that the polls/vote will be manipulated, rigged, or fixed. Now the NASDAQ is not an institution swayed by conspiracy theory's so they looked a little more closely and the article is well worth a few minutes of your time reading:-


Exclusive: Brexit Poll Conspiracy? - NASDAQ.com


and remember, these are global traders with no “dog in the ring” other than profit:-


Exclusive Brexit Poll Update: Should You Trust the Polls?


As Always - Follow the money...




Steve Hilton on government Brexit numbers…
“They are made up. I know because I used to do that stuff”.

Better informed is not how I would describe that post. So many inaccuracies that it's difficult to know where to start, but I saw the original post on Facebook and this is what one of Geoffrey White's own friends responded,

Im changing my mind every day.
Someone want to fact check this one ??

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...af36bba9d9.jpg

Excellent Ted

PS....I still won't be voting! :clap:

God wants you to vote remain
 

Hilariously, Downing Street & The Remain campaign have been caught out cynically coordinating yet another group in a letter to be published in a newspaper over the weekend, this time from religious leaders. BSE sent the text of the letter to Faiths Forum, asking them to get the signatures. Faiths Forum’s email to religious leaders has been leaked and it openly admits disguising that it is part of the official Remain campaign. The subject line rather gives it away…

Subject: Britain Strong In Europe Campaign

I received this email yesterday, and have been requested to circulate to faith leaders.

They are coordinating a letter from religious and belief leaders pressing people to think very carefully before voting to leave the European Union. It reiterates the point so eloquently made in a different context by Pope Francis that faith should be about building bridges not erecting barriers.

It says that so many of the issues about which people of faith care so passionately – from alleviating poverty to tackling climate change – depend on strong international institutions. It stops short of formally endorsing the remain campaign so as to avoid being overtly political. However, it would be seen as support from the signatories for Britain to remain in the EU, which is how we would present it.

Remember children – every time you Vote Leave an angel will die :(

Great that Ted...I will still be voting out :wink3:

Wayne

I would love you to come to the Granada region where I am at the moment and repeat those words. From our place in Spain we can see down into the valley and the ruins of the old mill house where Franco's 'moderate' Guardia Civil murdered three generations of the same family.

For many here in Spain, the civil war was just yesterday. And you probably don't realise the strength of feeling of the British volunteers who gave their lives in the fight against facism.

http://www.morocco-knowledgebase.net...nt_brigade.jpg

Tim, he was being ironic, in an attempt to engage in a discussion about if Franco was a good or a bad guy. It was in a reply to the post in which I pointed that the word fascism is being way too widely used these days.

In any event it's an open question for historians both in Spain and elsewhere, the true nature of Francoist Spain. As mentioned before, I don't see it as a true fascist regime, a fac-simile of Mussolini's fascism even if there were many similarities, specially in the years immediately after the civil war. There were, also, dissimilarities the greatest being the strong influence of the catholic church in the state's affairs, something which goes directly against the pure fascist doctrine. The true fascists were the Falange which was merely one of the regime's families. Further, the regime was different in 1940, 1960 and 1975, progressively moving away from the fascist traits it previously had and which happened along with the loss of influence of the Falange in favor of the technocrats like Ullastres.

On the same post it was made a comparison with the Portuguese dictatorship and, that one, was far from fascist with only the corporativism as a point of similarity. The true fascists in Portugal vanished in the mid-late 1930s.


Now, replying directly to what you said, yes, it's true that in Granada as in a large part of Andaluzia, praising Franco would bring not very good things to the praiser. But in some places in Murcia, Comunidad Valencian and specially in Castela y León, even in Eastern Galicia, the praiser would be able to get some followers. I've lived in Spain for several years, both in Madrid and near Alicante and my social contacts wouldn't go against someone who praised Franco. Many of them would join the choir, as a matter of fact.

1. Is true. But is 0.113% too high?
2. The comission decide what gets debated while at Westminster the elected scum decide themselves.
3. True, but freedom is priceless.
4. See above, I'd rather be poor and comfortable in my own street.
5. The UK abolished hanging, legalised gay sex etc. we can copy any of their ideas from outside.
6. Could be true. See 3 above.
7. If you ignore the ECHR you get chucked out of the EU. If they aren't connected North Korea could join the CAP.
8. Misses the point totally. A German would agree to a law to ban lawn mowing before 8 am. A Brit would defend the right of a man who lived 20 miles out in the country to mow when he likes and would condemn anyone else as an ungentlemany swine without any need for a law. The Spanish don't get up early enough to care. The Hungarians would settle it with their fists then gang up on the plod when he turned up to enforce the law.

The only issue is freedom. The rest is just noise which you can turn into any tune you like.

Did you know 50% of EU hills require you to use more petrol and 99% of EU yellow snow is inedible?

Andy

Immigration
 

Some simple immigration facts that might influence how you vote:-

And because Britain is the obesity capital of Europe it means we have even less space...(As an obese Brit obviously takes up the space of two skinny Spaniards)

However, if we leave the EU, it means there will be massive taxes on EU inspired healthier food so everyone will have to go back to eating pie and chips 7 days a week and we will all get even fatter and become more overcrowded.

We just cant win can we !!

Thats outrageous, where did you get the info, I would like to read the full story

Wayne

it's easy enough to extrapolate from Eurostat figures. Here's a source that may help you:-

Migration Watch UK | MW356 : Population Density Brief

No this is true, but we'll lose harder by leaving. As a fellow northerner and scouser, I'm sure you'll agree that overall EU money has done the world of good. Still, I'd actually quite like to vote to leave, firstly just to see Cameron and Osbourne consigned to the dustbin of history, and then several decades worth of schadenfreude as the Brexiters realise that their resentment and anger, of which much is genuine and understandable, has nothing to do with the EU, which in my opinion has been made a scapegoat for something much worse, namely;

Relentless privatization and asset stripping, spiraling costs of education, poorly thought-through mass immigration, under-investment in infrastructure (outside of London) and the callous abandonment by the Tories of the North by a London-centric political class, along with the failure to address the decades of decline triggered by de-industralisation - throw all that on a trashheap of an economic policy which has dominated since the 1970's by both mainstream right and left political parties, driving inequality to absolutely perverse levels. Not just between the worlds richest and poorest, but between the top 1% and the remaining 99%. Leaving the EU will help not one single bit with this, in fact it will likely make it worse.

I've always been more towards remain, but I've listened to the arguments of the Brexit carefully. In the end, the Brexit argument goes like this;

The Brexit argument attacks the EU but acknowledges none of the benefits. It's campaign has been driven by exaggerations, rhetoric and outright lies. They can criticise ad nausea the faults and shortcomings of the EU but simply have no facts, no clear vision, basically no idea how the UK will be post-Brexit, other than 'it will be great, trust us'.

It's backward and regressive and if we vote Brexit, rather than transforming Britain into some sort of socialist paradise where we are governed by Brits for Brits, we'll see workers rights, human rights and environmental rights stripped away, and those vicious spivs in Westminster having a carte blanche to do whatever the hell they want.

Cheer up, we are a long way from finished
 

Utter tosh.

If you were to read the most recent postings in the "economic crisis" thread you would see what has been happening with westernised economies over about the past 30 years.
The EU is not responsible for this, but it does support the economic "progress" in its' own manner by the way, for just one instance of how it has turned the screws on the Eurozone member known as Greece.

As for a Brexit strategy, I posted one such document quite a few pages back in here: the Flexit proposal which runs to over 400 pages of what amounts to a statement of "democracy", in short.
In itself, that document originates from the "Harrogate Agenda" - again you could do your own research about that.

I was very pleased, very pleased indeed, to have the recent judgement concerning the Hillsborough 96; IMO, that has been a turning point in this nation - nor does it have anything directly to do with "Left", "Right" or any other political direction. It reflects on the people of this country who are standing up for what is right; we will see more of this when the Chilcot report is published, soon after the June referendum apparently.

To remind you, we change our politicians every 5 years by general election (for sure, we get the politicians that we deserve).
Last night on the BBC Question Time programme, the guy who lost the general election of last year for the labour party, aka Milliband, was soundly trounced by both the other panellists and, especially, by the audience.

Some further recommended reading (from a female blogger who has writtene widely about the law of this country and has no axes to grind because she is dying of cancer):-
In which Ms Raccoon performs a EU turn….

Was it Churchill who said democracy is the worst form of government bar all the others?

Trouble is, Westminster is now out of date never mind a comission, parliament with two locations and MEP's with overly diverse aims. We should be using the internet to table motions directly from the electorate and teleconferincing the discussions. The EU version where the Moldovan Peasants Party backs the Spanish Bullfighting party in exchange for their support on extra payments for producers of Moldovan cheese is like going back to bent boroughs and the corn laws.

The Westminster Turkeys don't like the idea of Internet Christmas for some reason. They want us to vote for the perpetual EU February.

Andy

Yes, attributed to Churchill.

Yes again, the likes of Milliband was uncomfortable last night on TV when the audience made it clear that they wanted him to justify his platitudes.
He was way outside his comfort zone of the House of Commons and their stitch ups.

In contrast, David Davis genially spilled some beans about how government actually works behind the scenes*, as did Steve Hilton who is currently an emigre to the USA.

*Note, UK nominees to the EC are definitely not voted in by popular vote; Davis explained the UK process live on TV last night, and named Neil Kinnock in particular as a case study.
In essence, they are place men who have been passed over by the UK political process, as are Tusk and Junker from their respective countries - those "central powers".

The 17 May 2016 posting in this blog summarises the Flexit paper, for anyone who can't read 400+ pages.

http://leavetheeuropeanunion.blogspot.co.uk/

This Brexit bollox is no different to any other vote or election thingy. Each side spouts it's own tripe and they hope enough people will agree to allow them to get their way. I have heard many 'experts' say it would be a great move and other 'experts' say it would be a bad move.
I suppose it depends on which liar you choose to believe.

Listening to tripe and liars as you put it is a choice we have to help us decide which way to vote or not to vote at all
But if you don't vote then you can not whine when things happen that you don't like

Wayne

Yip.....and that's why I don't whine about things that happen.
I only whine about the twats who ultimately make the decisions and talk bollox while the public are led a dance akin to the Pied Piper.

Marvelous


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk whilst drinking a cold beer

I too grew in in that socialist hell hole of Liverpool and well remember each Fridays announcement of 2,000, 3,000, 3500 job factory closures, the Tate & Lyle’s, Triumph, Cammel Lairds etc., etc., etc.,. I also remember the Militant Tendency years when Oxbridge educated, Guardian columnist Corbanista Owen Jones’ old man was flying around the city with his fellow thugs beating up any trade unionist who stepped out of line. I remember the Objective One years and witnessed first hand the corruption, nepotism and sheer waste of money and the distortions in business and society of the city those years. It will come as no surprise that I have never in my life had a job. The only money I make is what I made for myself. Most of my contemporaries left the city.


It is therefore, a great sadness to me to know that even worse than this is currently being inflicted upon the young people of Spain, of France, of Portugal, of Greece and more besides. It is the EU and its monetary policy that is largely responsible for the destruction of their lives.


It is shocking therefore that the contradiction in your argument is your failure to see that the people behind “remain” and “Project Fear” are precisely those whom you despise – the 1%.


They have the entire media, the entire establishment, every big organisation in the world, all the money, from the banks, from the government, from the EU, from the corporations, they have the televisions, the newspapers, the social media networking sites, the MPs, the foreign Presidents and Prime Ministers, the military, the intelligence services, the 90 yr old veterans, the police, the charities, the stars, celebrities and virtue signallers, the universities and the crooked academics - almost the entire financial, political, media, military/industrial, intelligence agency, cultural, academic and anything-else-you-can-think-of strength against the Brexit campaign.

And they still can't win.

No one has all the answers. However, the answer to our problems, real or otherwise, big or small is not more government, more politicians, more taxes, more regulations. You want your socialist Paradise? Go to Venezuela.


Make no mistake, this is about more than Brexit, this is the 1% against everyone else. This may well be a turning point in the 21st Century, we agree there - the point the people said "No more" to the Elite. Britain was the country to bring democracy to the world, it's fitting that it should be the one to bring it back. Don't pander to the 1%. Vote Leave

Which is why this thread degenerated once people started posting links to all sorts of tosh written by other people. I'm not really interested what 'experts' have to say, to me it's a simple choice between getting sucked into an increasingly federal European state, or remaining independent. I don't need to read 100-page articles to decide which way I'm going to vote. I'd much rather read simple posts stating simple personal thoughts.

The latest European army move is a great example of ill-thought federalisation. With the exception of France and the UK, most countries' armed forces aren't fit for purpose. The shame of the Dutch army's failure at Srebrenica is a moot example. And one British officer described the Bundeswehr's operations in Afhanistan as "an aggressive camping organisation" rather than an army.

That has been exactly the goal of the abhorrent pacifists during the last decades. There is no surprise that the armies in most European countries became exactly that. If societies chose that path and acted towards achieving it throughout decades the surprise would be if there remained armed forces in most of Europe (not all for there are a few exceptions) worthy of the name.

In the "socialist hell hole" of Liverpool (you just won the hyperbole award, a great achievement in this thread), my dad could buy a house for £7,000 and could pay it off and still support a a family on a factory workers job. Unionized labour may not have been perfect but we're screwed without it. Go speak to my friends who work at one of the largest insurance companies in Liverpool. They've just had their pensions and any redundancy paid slashed in half. Strangely, executive and managerial pay was unaffected.

You talk about 'them' having everyone against Brexit - and yet most of the press in this country is ran by tax evaders, non-doms and an Australian who lives in America, i.e. Desmond, The Barclay Brothers, Murdoch and 'Lord' Rothemere. Their papers have been blaming the EU for just about anything for the past decade. You know why that is? Because someone has to be blamed for the destruction being wrought by the great hoovering up of the wealth and perverse inequality. Blame the immigrants, blame the disabled, blame the poor, blamew the EU, blame anyone but the banks, the politicians, the rich.

For the rest, what are you saying? That they are paid off? It's a big pro-EU conspiracy? Across those groups you described, there would be little consensus over anything, and so if they agree on remaining, maybe they have a point?

But honestly, what's the point talking about this anymore? We're using the EU as a pretext to talk about someone else entirely, no? It's very telling that you finish your argument by telling me to go to Venezuela, not only is that a common logical fallacy (known as the 'false dilemma') used to close down debate when one side runs short on ideas, it's nearly always employed by people who are ideologically blinkered.

I think for me, what pages and pages of this thread proves is the big difference between those who want to remain and those who are undecided, is that they'll generally entertain debate whereas the Brexit crew come across as blinkered and full of bile. In the end, the Brexit campaign will probably be a victim of its own bullshit. One can only hope so.

I largely agree with you but maybe it's worth noting that given the press are 70-80% in favour of Brexit, the argument has not been well presented. Like climate change, which was really 97% of scientific agreement vs 3% present of fringe science being presented as a 50/50 debate, most experts, academics, business owners, and the political establishment, not to mention all of the international community (accept Trump and the petty fascist Marine Le Pen) favour remaining.

Basically, sod the facts - vote with simple prejudices. That's the Brexit crowd down to a tee.

I think everyone's view should be a more wide reaching than just the federalisation issue but even so there is much too much focus on the immediate consequences of a leave vote. The Remain campaign is supported mainly by the financial, political and business establishments all of whom believe they have the right to dictate our lives. The Leave campaign is supported by the massive small business community, maverick politicians who are anti unnecessary bureaucracy (which is what the EU is) and economists who have a bit more vision and can see through the smoke screen being created by the establishment.

All the scaremongering by the establishment is just that. Britain will be much better off being able to make its own rules and trading arrangements. If Britain chooses to stay in the consequences in the long term of the "You dared to question our authority" brigade at the head of the EU will be far worse that any short term inconveniences caused by leaving.

I sincerely hope that the independent nature of the British people comes to the fore on polling day.

APPEAL TO EMOTION: In this fallacy, the arguer uses emotional appeals rather than logical reasons to persuade the listener. The fallacy can appeal to various emotions including pride, pity, fear, hate, vanity, or sympathy. The appeal to sympathy is actually a formal fallacy labeled Ad Misericordiam. Generally, the issue is oversimplified to the advantage of the arguer.

Yep...for me it is better than becoming a puppet or is that muppet of the EU bier

There are no facts just a lot of speculation so we really have no choice.

I fear you're absolutely right... :frown:

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, chapter VI.

No, you misunderstand me, I would rather read simple posts (from HUBB members) stating simple personal thoughts.

Although your response admittedly did meet the 'simple' criterion, it was an attack on other people's thoughts rather than an expression of your own. I might not agree with some of the points raised by HUBBers who think we should remain in, but I won't criticise their viewpoint.

I struggle with that argument.

Do you honestly think that the EU feels the UK takes them seriously when we already send 22 UKIP MEPs to Brussels?

Well there's many issues to choose from but the inexorable move to a Federal Europe and the loss of United Kingdom sovereignty is the one that concerns me the most.

I'm undecided about immigration. It's shutting the stable door as we can't turn back the clock and the price we have already had to pay has been soaring property prices (basic economics of supply and demand), ever-lengthening NHS queues and a massive shortage of school places. On the other hand our economy is strong and some say this is because we've had workers to fill jobs.

Financially, I suspect the country might go through a rocky period but equally might well come out the other side stronger, rather than weaker. Difficult to call. The City of London might lose some ground to Frankfurt.

But back to sovereignty and the move to closer union. Stuff the platitudes that Dave managed to get thrown to him as crumbs by the other EU leaders, the EU bureaucrats who are the power behind the throne will find ways to weasel round anything that's not enshrined in EU law.

You only have to look at Juncker's threat to ostracise those governments whose policies he doesn't agree with. The 'rule of law' legislation has already been used against Poland and is threatened against Hungary and Austria. When three of the 28 EU countries face this type of legislative action, one has to question whether the legislation makes sense. As the Polish prime minister said, "This is not the union, not the kind of membership that we have agreed to."

Juncker is, after all, the failed ex prime minister of the European superstate of Luxembourg which has hardly equipped him with a sense of fair play, and whose appointment as President of the European Commission was firmly opposed by the UK.

The main reason the leave campaign has teeth is because David Cameron failed to negotiate a better deal with the EU. This may be because many of the terms of membership of the EU are not negotiable (which is a reason to leave in itself) but in my view, it is more to do with the high handed manner of those in the top jobs in the EU hierarchy. This take it or leave attitude will mean that, if the UK votes to remain, these people will consider themselves even more powerful and the UK will be made to suffer more humiliating loss of sovereignty. Only my opinion.

I thought of posting here when the op started this thread, but went for a ride instead so it slipped my mind.

Now it's on n pages where n is tending towards infinity and the traffic stats to the hubb are much increased (advertisers like this apparently) and if people are able to demonstrate their in depth knowledge of Hitler's Mein Kampf, here's a quote from the forum rules you all signed up to

Horizons Unlimited - The HUBB - Forum Rules
Quote
It is NOT intended or run as a 'chat' board, NOR to debate the great political or religious or cultural issues of our time.
Unquote

Imho as it's a Sunday, you should be out riding/ planning a trip/ having a good time with friends and family, or reading a book not written by Austria's most infamous son.

It's Saturday, Chris.

And your link doesn't work.

But :welcome: anyway to the thread

:DMinor detail regarding the day of the week.doh It's the weekend and Starbucks is open. :blushing:

The link indeed doesn't work... Found it using the search function at top right of the page. I typed in the word 'rules' and it was the second link down.

Maybe the rules have changed? Wooo wooo conspiracy theory :helpsmilie::innocent:

Just found the (Federal Suprastate? ) roolz here

Horizons Unlimited - The HUBB - FAQ: General Forum Usage

I'm so relieved that there's no theoretical conspiracy after all! My skinny latte will taste so much better now. I can carry on reading my book on UFOs/CIA balloons/tunnels in the Sahara (by Junker and Schulz et al. Look it up, it's on Amazon) too.

Best post of the thread :thumbup1:

We should have a referendum to change thr forum rules.. I'll create a new thread and poll. :)

Sent from my G7-L01 using Tapatalk

What a great idea Ted. How about the proposal to change the rules to:

Discussions regarding sex, religion and politics are allowed as they appear to be a damn sight more interesting to people who populate this forum, judging by the traffic they generate, than the usual Carnet or which panniers should I fit to my lardy German/Austrian/Japanese heavy bomber to make it even less fit for purpose than it was before questions that usually appear ad infinitum.

If you manage to squeeze "twiddle my ring antenna" into a post you win a special prize, tba

"Skinny latte" also wins a minor prize (an evening of intellectual chit chat with the OP and/or author of this post?)

Any other rule change suggestions? Anyone? Heeeelp me out here guys!!! :palm: :Beach:

don't know what Chris did, (there IS something weird there) but the CORRECT link is indeed the second one down when searching on "rules" and takes you where you want to go, or even better go to the FAQ:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...l&titlesonly=0

Note Forum rules update in the FAQ :)

Yeah, you're going to have to go to the FAQ to see it... search the FAQ rules and guidelines page for HUBB PUB.

As you would expect, I clicked on the rules link in the search window. Then I copied the url of the rules page and pasted it into this thread that was already open in a different window.

Using Samsung smart phone with Android 4.1.2 and Chrome. My laptop broke. They don't bounce too well :(

:rofl:

Rules are rules.... And they're there for good reason.

But there are enough rules and red tape in the world already. And most of here travel in a vain attempt to escape them.

And this what this thread is partially about. Oh the irony !

I don't personally think there is anything wrong with this thread. Folk are 'mostly' being respectful.

And as Chris says (And I think he's been at the coca and Ayahuasca tea again), it makes a change from normal 100874838th thread about which coffee cup holder looks best on a GS..

And Chris... I'm not fiddling with your ring antenna. People will talk.

:)