Fasthsip, that "Abandon Ship" cartoon is priceless! Just love it!

The times, they are a changin!
 

What's the price in Germany?

You need to do a lot of legwork for a proper comparison. Taxes are different in the three countries which will count for a lot of the difference.

Also, cars are rarely the same specification. The base UK spec is normally higher, so (for example) will include a radio/cd as standard plus electric windows all round whilst other countries might not. I've twice imported cars from Germany and the initial delight at the much lower price is tempered when you have to add chargeable extras to get it up to the UK spec.

As a quick example, the UK car is shown in Race Red which is a standard colour, but costs 300CHF extra in Switzerland. I couldn't be bothered to check what else was different.

So do UK buyers pay more tax because they are in the EU?

I accept that it is difficult to make a direct comparison due to spec. differences but the fact that a car made in the EU sells for significantly less in Switzerland is ridiculous.

Aye it's a nightmare right enough. It's what's called "confusion marketing". Not so confusing is that the basic, no frills Nissan Qashqai produced here in the UK then shipped all the way to Japan sells for £12,791 in that country whereas to us mugs here in the UK it's £17,595! No wonder the motor industry calls the UK "Treasure Island" and no wonder they want us to remain in the protective customs union that is the EU.

Thanks to the referendum and the strength of the £ it has engendered I've just bought a new Toyota 79 Backie with a 4.5 V8 in Cape Town for a fraction of the German price, which is in much lower spec. too. Also got a few new bikes for ~ 40% less than here - they are EU spec too, the KTM made in the EU :D

I'lll spend the winter over landing back to the UK :scooter:

Toyota don't sell the 70 series in Europe doh so any sourced in Germany would be from a specialist supplier who have imported them, which would account for a small price differential/profit margin.

Of course to register the SA bargain in the UK you'll need to pay IVA, import duties VAT etc. possibly won't leave much of a saving after all.

OK, the example quoted by Fastship was a really lazily researched jobbie.

The engines in the Swiss and UK cars aren't even the same spec. The Swiss paint job is cheaper. Plus, the UK price quoted ignores the £1,250 discount shown on the web site.

This is what you get for copying something from elsewhere on t'interweb rather than writing from your own experience

But yes, cars in the UK are still more expensive than elsewhere in the EU and some of this is down to motor companies screwing the consumer. For once it's not the bad guys in Brussels who are to blame (though they allow the situation to continue). If we decided to change to driving on the right--like Sweden did in 1967--the motor companies wouldn't be able to play this game.

Surely the fact that Britain drives on the other side of the road, has a different currency, has a Monarch, speaks English, is an island, isn't in Schengen, doesn't have 2 hours for lunch, doesn't drink beer at work, wants a referendum etc. means that Britain is totally incompatible with mainland Europe and should therefore vote LEAVE.

There is a new European Regulation that came into force on 1st May. If you hire a car in Switzerland you can not drive it into a neighbouring country because the rule bans EU citizens from driving non-EU registered hire cars in the EU. A European commission spokeswoman said: “EU citizens should try to inform the car rental company in advance if they intend to … drive into the EU. I don't know if it will be the same for bought vehicles. What another load of b0!!ocks :rofl:

It is very clever isn't it? I like those old fsahioned political cartoons. Some people are so imaginative and talented.

You should do as I did - I e-mailed it to my entire contact base. One chap has laminated and mounted it. bier

some more:

That's true. There are only two places I know that sells 'em Tom's Fahrzeugtechnik & Toyota Gibraltar Stockholdings (TGS) - 4x4 vehicles for aid agencies although the Gib dealer only sells them for export outside the EU. Neither sells the V8 and locking diffs spec. I think ISIS gets the best deal on 79's - dunno where they buy them from tho :thumbdown:

Toyota ZA sells a fully specced vehicle but I would never call the 79 a cheap car no matter where you buy, you don't get a lot for your money but for reference the FOB price I paid is £20.4k and the landed price will be £24.139k. There's more to spend fitting it out for the trip tho but.

The KTM I bought is the 1190 ADV R. I pointed out some months ago how cheap ZA bikes were at that time - the FOB price I paid was £6.6k which is £7.9k landed plus shipping. ZA bikes are EU spec.

I wasn't aware of the EU rule for car hire! I keep my ZZR14 at my brothers place in Switzerland and have often rented a car for cross border shopping trips :oops2:

Whilst on the subject of currencies and Switzerland, at the start of last year the Swiss decoupled the Franc against the Euro and it soared. All the same people saying predicting BREXIT Armageddon said the Swiss economy would collapse - the exact opposite happened, Switzerland is BOOMING!

Thanks to this referendum I've mad a ton of money trading GBP-ZAR, got a few bargains and a great trip to look forward to. Cheers Dave beer

It's nice to see the counter at the top of the page is now at 100 :D

Vote Leave

This is what a Customs Union looks like
 

It is sometimes hard to visualise exactly what a Protective Customs Union looks like. Here is a simple visualisation of the EU blocking cheaper imports, eliminating competition, protecting the incumbents and limiting your choice.

The truck below is the most expensive truck made in China. It is made in a brand new, state of the art factory. It is also the newest brand. It costs about a half the equivalent German made truck, is built to EU regs. They even make it in right hand drive. We can't buy it here.

The map below where they distribute says it all – the EU is a no go area for these excellent, low cost trucks.

A Truly Shocking Video
 

everyone should see and share this video

What was shocking?

I would have thought it obvious, self explanatory in fact.

Under the Representation of the Peoples Act Vote Leave are allowed to campaign, it's their legal right.

As seen in the video stronger in Wayne David MP (Labour) has called the police to make the Vote Leave people close down their two stands but not his own stronger in stand. Also the Police & Crime Commissioner is a strong campaigner for remain too. The Police there have been politicised.

Banana Republic tactics from the panicking REMAINIACS.

Paranoia more like it! :D

There's usually a good reason for that and it's not political or economic. The Chinese may be good at their electronics but cars or trucks or anything similar tends to be poor. Built to EU regs or not, it'll be badly put together, it'll be unreliable and it won't be on sale here because the likes of Volvo, MAN, Scania, DAF and Iveco have proven their credibility for some time.

Should Britain leave the E.U. ???
 

It will be economic Chris, cheap eastern trucks have been here before and they're rubbish. You'll spend a boat load more on them keeping them on the road.

Disgraceful as the video is, it just shows how corrupt political figures are in this country. Do I really want to be turning total control over to these people?

But then, politicians are just a reflection on the population that elected them. It's more of the same in Europe too.



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Well yes XS904, they wouldn't be economic from the point of the unfortunate owner...but they'd probably be good for the UK economy as there would be tons of replacement parts and spares being imported and sold! lol

Work head on for this one, so only able to comment on brakes, suspension, gearbox bits etc about which I have active knowledge. They use the same component families as the ones used inside the EU. My colleagues at WABCO China have the same options I do in supporting their customers, the suppliers are global. The truck builder will type approve to the same standard. You can do this with any technical body that proves it is qualified to do this, the TUV’s, VCA etc. have offices in China to do just that. There is no technical/legislative barrier IF they meet the standards.

The markets in the map have subtle differences. Some don’t differentiate years of production. Basically if you have been making Bedford TK’s since 1955 you can carry on and will only ever have to meet the 1955 regs. Some only adopted part of the EU regs. Some will not have EU required features like ESC because their infrastructure cannot support it.

We have Chinese made bus manufacturers importing into the UK, so it can be done.

How the market perceives them is a commercial matter and the tax man will what his share, but I aren’t qualified to comment on that. These Chinese trucks BTW cannot be sold in the USA or Canada because they do not meet operator expectations there, so cannot be supported. The manufacturer could do an FMVSS self certification, but the barrier to market entry would remain their use of electronics.

Much as I support one side of this debate, the truck market does not seem to drive either argument very well.

Andy

Well said. We shall have no more truck-talk then chaps. :nono:

Andy knows about this stuff and we don't :thumbup1:

You make assumptions.

For a start, were the 'stands' authorised? Was there a need for them to be authorised and for licenses to be obtained? Being there before sets no precedent. Perhaps they weren't noticed. As the guy says, the police don't go there.

If they were official, then you're right. If they were not, quite right they should be taken down.

Yes, there's a right to campaign. That does not mean you can set up camp in two locations in the local town without appropriate permissions.

Non-story. Again.

Him above... ^^^^ yip, up there ^^^^

He makes some very valid points :thumbup1:

After the ‘08 crash we went to China looking for opportunities, heavy trucks being one of the emerging ones. By ~ 2013 there were around 20 new truck brands and we spoke to most of them. Whilst it was possible to import semi-officially and the export managers were very keen they said it would have to be done through the EU. We quickly learned that the EU were not going to allow heavy trucks from China into the EU. The EU itself has its own type approval facilities in China and the makers build to EU standards. It’s a long story! The Chinese were sanguine as they could not meet domestic demand at that point. One company simply bought Volvo.


The situation has changed somewhat, the Chinese are rationalising and now need to export. Good evidence for this is Ferrari F1, sponsored by Weichai. They are softening up the Europeans. The motor lobby in the EU is the most powerful so you still do not see Chinese heavy trucks here, apart from show trucks at motor shows.


I am old enough to remember the exact same thing said about Datsun s. We know what happened subsequently. One thing we did discover was that parts logistics was not great but not in ways you might think. These are state of the art designs made in (German designed) state of the art factories. To walk around them was a revelation! Dunno about your 1955 Bedford point?


In determining whether you would choose the £30k Donfeng over £130 Merc you (wilfully) miss the important point here – we are being denied choice. Moreover, we are being denied the choice in order to protect the vested interests. As I’ve said before, the Merc truck that takes your cheap goods to the ship in China costs £30k – the Merc truck that picks up your now tariffed goods from the ship in the EU cost £130k. Says it all really...

...but - people see what they want to see.

Gosh that is desperate stuff. People should watch the video again and make up their own minds what went on there. It is what it is. And then vote accordingly...

Vote Leave

http://img2.demotywatoryfb.pl/upload...y8vf9q_600.jpg

Maybe why they're not imported to some of the big markets (EU, USA)

That's what I did.

We voted LEAVE today. We were provided with a nice International Postage Paid envelope, and our votes are on their way to the UK.

I was talking to some ex-pats over coffee and I commented that the difference between 'remain' and 'leave' was that 'leave' would make the effort to vote, and 'remain' often wouldn't.

It turns out they were 'remain' supporters and hadn't bothered to apply for a postal vote.

QED.

Apathy could lose it for Remain, that's for sure.

Back to fundamentals
 

It has been a while since UK law has been mentioned herein.
The recent discussion about permits for being on the streets of the UK led me to lift from elsewhere the summary given below – it is fully in accord with the fundamentals of why I wish to be rid of the EU (but I still love Europe and it's peoples).


“Corpus Juris” is the name for the EU’s system of justice, providing one European Legal Area, a European Public Prosecutor and a European Criminal Code and in my view it’s one of the principle reasons to vote for Brexit.
Apart from doing away with jury trials it abolishes habeus corpus, i.e. the concept of “innocent until proven guilty”. Criminal investigations make no distinction between imprisonment for prosecution purposes or investigative purposes.
It transcends British law when a British person is under investigation by the European Public Prosecutor (EPP) who can request his remand in custody. . .for a period of up to 6 months, renewable for 3 months where there are reasonable grounds to suspect the accused has committed one of the offences defined, or good reasons for believing it necessary to stop him committing such an offence. . .” (Page 90, Article 20 of the EU’s own book, Corpus Juris).
The EPP can incarcerate someone for months without charge and it appears there’s no limit to the number of 3-month extensions. For instance, the case of Andrew Symeou from Enfield, who was extradited to Greece and languished in jail there, based on the signature of a magistrate that no UK judge could overturn despite the evidence against him being obtained under duress. He was in a Greek prison for almost a year and denied bail until the trial was adjourned.
It turns out he was wrongly arrested and framed for a crime he didn’t commit whilst on holiday in Greece.
According to :- Brits at their Best EU-Style Justice Corpus Juris Copyright 2008 David Rowlands, Catherine Glass and David Abbott – Corpus Juris makes very clear the implications for our legal system and individual rights:- “What we propose is a set of penal rules. . .designed to ensure. . .a more efficient means of repression” (CJ, Page 40) (sic). Just google “how many Brits have been wrongly arrested by EU police”.
Then we have the EU Arrest Warrant, where a national judicial authority, such as a court or police force can issue an EAW to get a suspect extradited. There are examples of our own police forces “misusing” this mechanism for justice, as in the Ashya King case. When the Kings sought treatment abroad for their five-year old son’s brain tumour, they were subject to an EAW, then jailed in a Spanish cell, leaving Ashya alone in a Malaga hospital. All because they didn’t fill in the right forms at Southampton hospital.
Although our own judicial system is also often open to question, Corpus Juris seems like jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

The differences in spec used to be trotted out years ago as an excuse for higher UK prices when there was a bit of a fashion for importing cars cheaper in europe. There was a big market importing them from Holland. In actual fact, the exact same spec car still cost less from Europe, full UK spec, lights, RHD everything. That was a few years back so I don't know how it sits now, but one thing worthy of consideration is that the average wage in Switzerland is 2.5-3 times higher than the UK and in America, in my job, I would earn around 10k more with a significantly reduced cost of living.

Attachment 17778


.....ALL of it

I did, there were two stories about brits being arrested by EU police, the rest were links, news articles or repostings about EU arrest warrants.

I didn't look past page one as I felt like Chris' cat

Should have bought a Volvo doh



Made in their brand new factory in Chengdu :oops2:
https://www.media.volvocars.com/glob...ction-in-china


As is the new Land Rover, as is the new Jaguar XFL etc. etc.

China auto market is now larger than the US & Japan combined

The Dongfeng KX has a Volvo (same as on the FM & FL or ZF ASTronic) and a Cummins engine and the Cab was by Italian design house. In fact Volvo were involved in its design. Price is stupid low!

I think if we BREXIT a free trade agreement with China (which the EU won't let us make) will see such trucks here in the UK and operating into the EU undercutting european brnad truck operators. Increased productivity!

Yep.

Okay, it's 24th June. We've just voted, "Leave". What do we do now?

Dave - thank you for posting this important contribution. I was saving this one up for a post and you beat me to it. I might add a few extras to reinforce the loss of this important component of what it means to be British.

Freedom, liberty and justice are something I think the left of politics and the media have completely wrong. In a flurry of “isms” they have closed in on free speech, on the right of protest and demonstration, and clamped down on opposition to certain views. But nowhere do I think they have it more wrong than the creeping harmonisation of EU justice and home affairs.

Viviane Reding, the EU’s Commissioner for Justice, says it would be “crazy” for the UK to opt out of these transfers of powers to Brussels. “Do you want criminals and paedophiles running freely around on the streets? Is that really in the United Kingdom’s best interest?” she asked. Is Brussels going to release some criminals if we don’t sign up, after it’s forced Westminster to give them the vote?

Such intimidatory language is typical of Eurocrats. Reding speaks as if the UK has no police force or justice system, when in fact our traditions of habeas corpus should be held up as a beacon of fairness.

Unlike most continental countries, Britain has had a continuous and peaceful constitutional development going back hundreds of years. The last significant armed conflict in mainland Britain was the Jacobite Rebellion of 1745. Disputes have been settled and power has passed from one government to another essentially by voting (with an ever-increasing franchise) since the end of the Civil War. The losers have accepted the verdict of the voters without resorting to protest and rebellion. This history may lead some commentators to overlook the central role of physical force in the maintenance of state power.

Corpus juris, used by our continental neighbours, is not a system of justice we should be welcoming in the UK. It is alien to our beliefs of “innocent before proven guilty” and of limiting the power of the state. Once the power of law enforcement has been handed to another institution, there is no guarantee we can get it back. Certainly the endless rhetoric of “repatriating powers” to Westminster politicians, scared of the increasing hostility to the EU project and the rise of Ukip, has seen no reversal in the flow of powers.

The EU court already exists: the plans under the Lisbon Treaty are to extend its jurisdiction. I question whether many MPs know the details of these measures let alone citizens.

As far as I am aware, there is no official research centre of comparative criminal procedure in any university in Britain, nor has any previous government undertaken any detailed research into the workings of the criminal law system of our EU partners. And yet we have been signed up to a series of treaties that bring ever-closer union.

In England in 1215, King John was prevailed upon by his barons to give his assent to the Magna Carta. This established certain limits on the power of the king to ensure he wielded his authority for the purposes of justice, not vindictiveness.

What we may not appreciate in this country is that at the same time, the opposite was happening in Europe. For example, the Holy Inquisition was being set up in Rome. This system of combining the prosecutor and judge is something which formed the basis of the legal system in Europe. They are no longer the same person, but are instead salaried civil servants working cheek by jowl.

My question to those who support this transfer of powers to the EU is simple: “Do you believe in the principle of innocent until proven guilty?” Perhaps they should speak to Andrew Symeou, who was extradited to Greece and languished in jail there based on the signature of a magistrate that no UK judge could overturn despite the evidence against him being obtained under duress. He was in a Greek prison for almost a year and denied bail until the trial was adjourned.

If we do not opt out of these Justice and Home Affairs measures, we risk our system being replaced by a system as in Italy, where criminal investigations make no distinction between imprisonment for prosecution purposes or investigative purposes. Amanda Knox is a high-profile example of this system. She was subject to her personal life being publicised and attacked in a way which would not have been permitted here or in her own country of the US. Indeed, the police said she had committed slander by trying to defend herself. She was told she had HIV so that she would reveal details of her ex-partners – details which were then released to the media.

The debate a few years ago on 90 days’ detention without charge, which was subsequently defeated, pales into insignificance compared to what British citizens could be locked up for, for months on end, if the EU gets its way. It is essential that we do not submit our sovereignty to the EU in this way.

In this referendum a simple choice you can make is this: do you believe in our system of Innocent until proven guilty or do you want to surrender it to the EU system of guilty until proven innocent. That alone may inform your choice. If the former your only choice can be VOTE LEAVE

It is the beginning, not the end.

More light hearted cartoons :)
 

more fun :D

It would appear that the brexit campaigners do not have a sense of humour or have taken on board the discussion about long winded irrelevant posting on the hubb............

European Leaders see latest polls
 

oh feck...:helpsmilie:

But what do we actually do?

After 24 June ......
 

Here is my guesstimate from early February this year (page 17 of this discourse):-

Since February, the Flexit campaign - the LeaveAlliance - has provided me with a feasible plan for Brexit.

You have a unique writing style. So similar to cut & paste. I see lots of words but not too many verbs.

You say, "Sack the government".

What else?

What else do we actually do?

They don't have the answers by the looks of things, lots of long winded posts but very little in the way of solutions:rofl:

FM/FH range use the 11,13 or 16 litre engine, FL & FE use god damn awful Paccar 7 litre with its chocolate fuel system. As does Renault and I believe Daf. Now revised in the FE(3) to 5 and 8 litres.

The only engine Volvo don't share with the other owned brands is the 16. I-shift is also on Renault now, however the software is different and the I-see gps controlled terrain mapping is exclusive to the main brand, as is several other options to keep the premium brand ahead.

In the Far East the same truck as Volvo/Renault is UD Trucks. Same running gear, own cabs.
It makes sense to allow the use of the same mechanicals in other regions, it means they are buying parts from your company and the mark up can be higher.

There was a lot of concern that allowing a cheaper brand to use your running gear was a big mistake by Volvo. Sales were marketing the Renault as a re-cabbed Volvo for
less money, and 'stealing' sales from the premium brand. However the prices are more in line with each other now, and there are less configuration options on the Renault chassis.

There is rumour that Volvo and Renault could part company again. If this does happen, Renault would still have to be sourcing parts from the Volvo group for its current range and spares for previous models.

Although what Volvo's global strategy has to do with the EU escapes me?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

bier

why are you here then! anyways, speak for yourself, this is probably the most important decision this country has faced in generations, and it's being made by the people.
whether if exit win the politicians have the bollocks to see it though of course remains to be seen!!

I'm here to be amused and confused by the nonsense spoken by any.
My expert belief on the matter is that even if the vote is to leave then the EU will offer sweeteners to the UK to stay and the whole Brexit thing will have been a waste of time.

Brexit: Could There Be a Second Referendum?

But like I say, that's just my 'expert' opinion. :rofl:

You are right on - we are making history.

The man with no opinion is an attention seeker. Should go to bed and let the grown-ups talk.

I got a brick of 1,000 leaflets and some posters and I was out all afternoon pushing leaflets thru doors and speaking to people. I can report BREXITERS were enthusiastic to rabidly so for leaving, remainers simply shrugged their shoulders. Migrants was a real trigger point.

Two people pointed this out to me which I looked into: Last week Nigel was lambasted by the intelligentsia and media luvvies for suggesting that immigrants might be a threat to women here:

Four Syrian immigrants are charged after two girls, 14, 'were sexually assaulted yards from Newcastle's St James' Park just weeks after one of the men entered the UK'

Omar Badreddin, 18, Mohammed Alfrouh, 20, and Mohammad Allakkoud, 18, have pleaded not guilty to sexually assaulting a girl, 14, in Newcastle

A 16-year-old Syrian boy has also been charged with sexual assault

Mr Badreddin arrived in UK under the government's resettlement scheme
So far 1,602 Syrians - including Mr Badreddin - have arrived in the country

Thanks to Angela Merkel and the EU for inviting these hard working skilled people into Europe.

Another reason to get out of the corrupt EU.

Three Syrian men deny sex assault in Newcastle - BBC News

Are they migrants or refugees?

The Navy Lark
 

The Royal Navy is proud to announce its new fleet of Type 45 destroyers
Having initially named the first two ships HMS Daring and HMS Dauntless, the same Naming Committee that brought you "Boaty McBoatface" has, after intensive pressure from Brussels, renamed them HMS Cautious and HMS Prudence.
The next five ships are to be HMS Empathy, HMS Circumspect, HMS Nervous, HMS Timorous and HMS Apologist
Costing £850 million each, they comply with the very latest employment, equality, health and safety and human rights laws.
The Royal Navy fully expects any future enemy to be jolly decent and to comply with the same high standards of behaviour.
The new user-friendly crow's nest has excellent wheelchair access.
Live ammunition has been replaced with paintballs to reduce the risk of anyone getting hurt and to cut down on the number of compensation claims.
Stress counsellors and lawyers will be on board, as will a full sympathetic industrial tribunal.
The crew will be 50/50 men and women, and will contain the correct balance of race, gender, sexuality and disability.
Sailors will only work a maximum of 37hrs per week as per Brussels Directive on Working Hours, even in wartime.
All the vessels are equipped with a maternity ward, a crèche and a gay disco.
Tobacco will be banned throughout the ship, but recreational cannabis will be allowed in wardrooms and messes.
The Royal Navy is eager to shed its traditional reputation for; "Rum, sodomy and the lash"; so out has gone the rum ration, replaced by sparkling water. Sodomy remains, now extended to include all ratings under 18. The lash will still be available on request.
Saluting of officers is now considered elitist and has been replaced by "Hello Sailor".
All information on notice boards will be in 37 different languages and Braille.
Crew members will now no longer have to ask permission to grow beards and/or moustaches.
This applies equally to female crew.
There will be no Captain appointed, the ship will be run on a committee basis.
The MoD is inviting suggestions for a "non-specific" flag because the White Ensign may offend minorities. The Union Jack must never be seen. The EU reserves the right to fly its own flag at the stern at any time.
The newly re-named HMS Cautious will be commissioned shortly by Captain Hook from the Finsbury Park Mosque who will break a petrol bomb over the hull.
She will gently slide into the sea as the Royal Marines Band plays "In the Navy" by the Village People.
Her first deployment will be to escort boatloads of illegal immigrants to ports on England 's south coast.
The Prime Minister said, "Our ships reflect the very latest in modern thinking and they will always be able to comply with any new legislation from Brussels ..."
His final words were, "Britannia waives the rules."

Why don't you answer Wildmans query? is it becauase you can't or you don't know?

Another Brexit misinformation statement, even in a tongue in cheek post, the facts aren't correct or researched and still no understanding of the difference between illegal immigrant and refugees :nono:

I wonder if those little girls asked them that as they were (allegedly) being raped by them?

Thats not the point, your trying to use that news story to justify leaving the EU.

Given that you haven't answered the question we'd be correct in assuming its yet another scare tactic by Brexit campaign which cannot be backed up with any fact

It seems from the BBC report that at least one of them is a Syrian refugee. We will not stop accepting Syrian refugees if we leave the EU.

Migrant, quite right. But then don't they get stopped at Calais now?

Noted how the charge of sexual assault, terrible though that must be, has now become rape.

If Britain leaves the EU it will be up to Her Majesty's Government to decide if, where from and how many refugees are accepted in the UK. At this moment, while it is a complete mess, the EU is pulling the strings on that regard and using its influence. Mind you that David Cameron had a most sensible position on this regard, saying several months ago that the UK would not accept refugees included in some sort of EU quota but would, instead, pick them from the refugee camps. Exactly what several other countries do!

Funny thing on all this refugees saga; it seems that only now the Europeans realised that there are refugees. The next step will be to realise that there are refugees in many other places other than in Greece and Turkey. Perhaps some day the Europeans will even realise that there have been refugees during the last several decades in several parts of the world.

One day soon the BREXITers and tabloid press will realise that the United Kingdom is a signatory to the 1951 United Nations Convention relating to the Status of Refugees.

Thats UN not EU, it can be easy to confuse 2 letter abbreviations!

Yes, and I'm sure the UK will live up to its responsibilities. When the UK agreed to take 20,000 directly from Syrian Refugee camps these were refugees. According to UNHCR there are over 150,000 refugees and asylum seekers (applying for refugee status) in the UK.

When Germany agreed to take hundreds of thousands of Syrians, these were actually economic migrants as they had already previously reached a place of safe refuge (whether that's Turkey or any of the EU countries they travelled through on the way to Germany).

Just like most other countries worldwide. That doesn't mean that these countries receive refugees like if there was no tomorrow, does it? Neither refugees from Syria nor from any other place.

hey ho me hearties
 

Only half a :rofl: from me, sorry.
........... because it has been around for quite a few years and is not updated, lacking any reference to uni-sex "heads" and the equal opportunities to have transgender folk aboard.
The secret life of a transgender airman - BBC News

I don't think that's a fair assessment. Turkey was subjected to more than a million (3 million if I remember correctly) refugees. It is a little heartless to suggest that from that point they become economic migrants.

Let's not forget that despite Fastship's rhetoric and jibes, many of the Syrians who have been displaced are professionals, teachers, shopkeepers, business people, tradesmen ...., not just the usual poor and weak, although I'm sure there are many of those too.

After the kettle is on, what next ...........
 

Some commentary elsewhere has touched on an aspect that has received little attention so far.


This referendum has never been about the very-usual party politicking that is the norm for much of the time; from day one of the campaigning it has been obvious that all of the political parties in the UK, bar the recent UKIP, are split with advocates for both sides of the case.
But, the UK public has had enough – seen enough – heard enough; this is not about party politics but it is about a revolution against the establishment.
All of the establishment, across the EU and within the UK.
The current UK PM will come to regret his personal lack of success in his recent negotiation with the EU and his decision to take the lead in the campaigning for one of the cases.
As has been said previously, the vote that is one week away is just the beginning.


?c?

On what? Nothing there that wasn't said before. In fact, that was all that was said before.

What else?

Whether it's fair or not, it's the 'rules'. Once you reach a safe haven you are no longer fleeing armed conflict or persecution if you then move on, so you become an economic migrant. See UNHCR's own definition.

1. I'd miss all your gibberish nonsense if I did that. Like I said, there is a certain entertainment attached to this, especially when some of 'the grown-ups' are talking total and utter bollox.

2. You have little to do with your time let alone stuffing your opinion through letterboxes and torturing people with your own views. If anyone calls at my door talking nonsense I often agree with them and then chuck their wasted paper thingys in the bin when they go.

Attachment 17784

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

PS...I voted to remain but you won't find me torturing others with a 100 pointless and useless reasons why they should do the same. If it's a vote for the people then let the people make up their own minds without being bombarded with propaganda from one side or the other.

My memories of this are

1. Cameron talks tough in his 2013 Bloomberg speech on what he will be asking for

2. However he realises he doesn't have any chance of achieving these aspirations and waters down his demands before presenting them

3. Cameron states if he doesn't get a suitable settlement he will advise people to vote to leave.

4. His watered down demands are watered down even more by Angela et al.

5. Rather than play hard to get and defer discussions until 2017, Cameron waves his 'peace in our time' settlement and presses the 'go' button on the referendum.

6. EU bureaucrats dismiss the settlement saying it isn't guaranteed unless written into treaties.

7. Despite his earlier apparent ambivalence towards which way to lean, Cameron announces he has such a great deal from the EU that he will lead the remain campaign which then unleashes images of the four horsemen of the apocalypse upon anyone who dares think of leaving.

Turkey fails to meet criteria for visa-free EU travel

Oh dear, looks like the 80million Turks the Tin Foil Hat Brexit brigadeare trying to scare everyone with won't be coming to the UK doh

(look at that and learn..........relevant short concise and to the point)

VOTE BEAVER

Thanks for pointing that out to use...however you did fail to point out that it wouldn't affect the UK as we are not part of the Schengen
But if they join fully!

I find it frustrating that some brexiters are so obsessed about immigration. It's really not the main issue. Brexit the movie I don't think even mentions it.

I'm out and I'm married to an immigrant. All of my best friends are married to immigrants! In fact, many of my friends are immigrants!! I wouldn't give a shit if brexit intended to invite the whole of the rest of the world in, there are bigger issues at stake her and immigration is proving to be something of a distraction

BTW, have you heard about the latest from the football.

Polish fans have been on the rampage.

They have cleaned 57 cars, rewired a house, built an extension and laid a carpark!!

:thumbup1::rofl::thumbup1:

Pity the same can't be said about some England fans. Disgraceful behaviour last night again. They won't stop until they're kicked out of the tournament.

During this campaign, much has been the hypocrisy expressed some of which I have exposed here. It's been easy, it's been fun, it's been part of the game. Never and I mean NEVER has this level of hypocrisy been so sickeningly, nauseatingly and downright disgustingly exhibited as it has been today by that Irish :censored: Geldof.


This multi millionaire establishment luvvie got up on his back legs today and mocked working fishermen and tried to drown out their protests and boost his own ego for attempting to take back control of just this country's fishing policy from the EU.


Let me explain the depths of his hypocrisy. People think the EU fishing policy begins and ends at EU waters. Not So. To ameliorate over capacity in the EU fishing fleets the EU sought and got fishing agreements(FA's) with almost every African coastal state. Many books have been written on the devastating effects of this policy on African society, on Africans and on the marine and wider environments. Investigate yourself, it will make you cry.

“The EU is unfairly profiting from the resources of the world's poorest countries and they are breaking their own laws to do it”
Rashid Sumiaila, Professor of ocean and fisheries economics at the university of British Columbia.

The FA's with these nations are paid for 80% from the EU (us taxpayers) 20% by ship owners to the African States forbid by law traditional atisenal fisherman from fishing in their traditional waters. Of course, they still try, However, one EU factory ship can catch in one day what 56 Mauritanian pirogues can catch in one year for example. There are 256 EU factory ships operating in African waters. The seas are raped of their resources leaving little for the locals to catch for their own consumption and to market.


The marine devastation is horrific; the “discards” include 60,000 sharks, 18,000 rays and 1,500 turtles. Each year. MINIMUM.

“Since the companies aren't paying the full cost of doing business, they make more profit and in turn invest in bigger and more efficient boats, which enable them to further exploit developing countries' fish stocks”


Frederic Le Manach, French fisheries scientist.

The EU fishing boats operating in African waters are highly subsidised by the Common Fisheries Policy. They are built with massive EU taxpayer subsidies and EU taxpayers subsidise the FA's. This has shifted over capacity from EU waters to African waters. Local atisinal fishermen have to compete for fish with these state of the art super trawlers, 45 metres long, they carry helicopters for spotting, echo sounders and sonars and full filleting, processing and freezing plant on board. They can be asea for months at a time.

“We have seen how the navy becomes part of the corrupt team that receives hard currency and turns a blind eye to the looting of their nations wealth”


Edouardo Loayanza World Bank fisheries advisor

EU vessels ignore boundaries, under-report catches and bribe African officials. They are rarely caught or penalised. The 2014 African Progress Report said African coastal nations lost $1.3 billion as a result of illegal EU fishing practices in West Africa alone. In Sierra Leone 252 instances of illegal fishing was reported over an 18 month period. Senegal's losses were calculated at $300 million in 2012 alone. In a 2012 study by UK charity Environmental Justice Foundation, they documented 252 illegal fishing reports by EU vessels off the cost of Sierra Leone. Nine out ten of them landed their catches in EU ports. EU vessels were documented entering exclusion zones and using banned fishing equipment. They found bribes, intimidation and a refusal to pay fines and also documented, with photos, local fishermen beaten unconscious.


In 2004, a Tanzanian patrol discovered 24 EU vessels illegally fishing in protected areas. Following the arrest of the crews the EU commission sent delegates who bribed local officials to secure their release. The fishing companies pay bribes to on-board observers now and also to marine inspectors. Breaking the law is lucrative yet the EU still subsidises the fleet. It rewards them.


The result? In Madagascar alone fishing agency members has declined from 406 in 2004 to 159 today. In peoples livelihoods? 100,000 jobs lost. In that small country alone.

“If people aren't able to get their protein from fish, they'll turn elsewhere for food and economic survival”


Justin Brashares, Professor of wildlife ecology and conservation at University of California, Berkeley.

Over fishing and illegal fishing in African waters has devastating consequences for local fishermen and coastal communities. Their lives and livelihoods are dependent on fish as a main source of food and protein and income. When no fish are available or the price is too high they suffer. Not just from hunger but the health impacts too. Marine resources have been vital for their health and survival. EU subsidies of EU trawlers taking their stocks away to the EU devastates their communities, leads to protein deficiency which contributes to poor health and low economic productivity. They are forced to shift to inferior food types, including bush meat.


EU FA's with their subsidies force Africans to slaughter wildlife in order to survive. We all know of the decline in African wildlife ~ 76% across 44 species in fact in a few decades. In search of protein species not traditionally consumed are sought introducing new viruses not seen before into the population. Ebola being just one recent example. And yet during that period EU fishing fleet funding 1981 to 2001 increased 5833%.

“I could be a fisherman there (Spain). Life is better there. There are no fish here in the sea any more”


Ale Nodye, Senegalese fisherman and smuggler

As a result of the EU's advanced, industrialised fishing fleets, over-exploiting the fishing grounds of the local, traditional fishermen they are forced to alternatives. Unable to work an exodus results.


Fisheries scientist Thom Binet attests that the migration problem in West Africa started with a small group of small scale fishermen and has now moved to African youth who seek employment and a better future in Europe. He contends that the root of this issue lies with EU and it's persistent, illegal fishing.

“In the ever shifting world of pirates,coast guards and fishermen, the movement amongst the three has never been in only one direction”


Jay Bahadur, Canadian journalist and author.

The plundering of African waters of these poor countries by the EU has led to a dramatic increase in piracy. Under resourced and under funded coast guards can't maintain law and order. It is a war between two illegal entities one being EU funded and they can't intervene.


The emergence of piracy is a reaction to foreign over fishing. The EU breaks the law, they do too. The UN estimate $300 million was plundered from Somalian waters by foreign trawlers in 2006. We know what the fishermen there resorted to.


What I have written here is the tiniest prece of the EU's evil fishing practices in Africa. Books have been written on the subject.


Many people here have travelled Africa, have seen with their own eyes this going on, on shore at least. In the EU we have witnessed African migration. Africans can exist and prosper in their own countries if given an even break. The EU denies them this. Geldof, of all people knows this. An yet, to satisfy his own bloated ego this smug, wealthy, establishment, Irish luvvie :censored: calls hard working British fishermen :censored: (rhymes with) “swanker”? Whilst applauding the moral inversion that is the EU and what it inflicts on Africans? This is the very definition of hypocracy.


Truly the lowest point in this campaign – it will go down in social history.


Also, his music is :censored: (rhymes with “kite”).

I didn't fail to point anything out, the fact that the UK is not part of Schengen has been pointed out to the BREXIT campaigners many times but it hasn't stopped them regurgitating this, ad nauseum, as a reason to vote out

VOTE BEAVER

Surely when ones posted gets deleted by a Moderator, reposting it is not on?

Okay, you've persuaded me with that argument. I'm all for Brexit now!

doh

You are absolutely right – the “establishment” for want of a better word has revealed itself in all it's ugly forms during this campaign. We see it's international reach, its' contempt for the 99% and how it works together to maintain its' own narrow elites in their positions of wealth and privilege. Also we see how a handful of “useful idiots” repeatedly comes to their defence. Divisions have been made and things will not be the same after this referendum. Something has changed.


On the doorstep, the overwhelming response is to stick two fingers up to the establishment, the “one percenters”. People remember the expenses scandal, the way the banks screwed them over then screwed up then demanded they pay for it all. They observe our PM standing “shoulder to shoulder” with foreign leaders, smirking whilst they threaten our country. They see the likes of the Kinnocks with their snouts in the trough and they say “you want us to vote for this”? The elite feel entitled to their vote – they are in for one hell of a shock. This is a profound moment in our nations history and we are privileged to be a pert of it.


Cameron & Osborne are in the final week in office. Osborne's “nuclear option” blew up in his face yesterday with his “punishment” budget. However, this is not yet over. In their desperation to cling on they will turn Project Fear up to even greater hysterical levels in the final few days they have left. Be prepared. And then Vote Leave

Careful now - you are almost in danger of expressing an opinion there!

Switzerland withdraws longstanding application to join EU
 

The upper house of the Swiss parliament on Wednesday voted to invalidate its 1992 application to join the European Union, backing an earlier decision by the lower house. The vote comes just a week before Britain decides whether to leave the EU in a referendum.

Twenty-seven members of the upper house, the Council of States, voted to cancel Switzerland’s longstanding EU application, versus just 13 senators against. Two abstained.

Canton Schaffhausen has a very convoluted border with Germany including a small enclave of German territory - not unusual for border areas but, for some years, the Canton has not been too impressed with the passage of heavy goods vehicles on their highways, heading to Italy for instance.

Separately, but perhaps connected, Germany has tried to influence matters via restrictions on international flight paths into Zurich airport.
(final approach tends to commence from the north).

How Remainers Stitched up Gove's Father
 

Michael Gove was as emotional as you will ever see on Question Time as he responded to the Guardian story about his father. Privately the Goves are genuinely furious, and say the paper “rang up an elderly man who is very hard of hearing and has serious diabetes and twisted his words”. The Guardian story is headlined “Michael Gove’s father denies his company was destroyed by EU policies”. Yet this was the actual answer 79 year-old Ernest Gove gave to the journalist’s question:

“There’s nothing really to go back about anyway because it just was, when Europe went into fishing, the industry more or less collapsed down and I just packed in and got a job with another firm, you know. That was all that was happening.”

He didn’t contradict Gove Jnr, he completely confirmed him to be telling the truth.

As the journalist repeatedly tried to get Gove Snr to contradict Michael, Ernest explicitly said: “I’m not going against my son”. The Guardian claim “Michael Gove’s office neither denied or retracted or contested accuracy of Earnest Gove quotes”. Except they provided the reporter with a statement from Ernest Gove, again rubbishing the story:

“I don’t know what this reporter is going on about. Everybody in the north-east knows it was Europe that did such damage to the fish trade. The common fisheries policy was a disaster, not just for Aberdeen, but all of Scotland. There wasn’t any future for my business. It closed as a direct result of Europe.”

For avoidance of doubt, here is Ernest Gove on camera last week giving the BBC his view:

WATCH: Gove's father speak on the EU and his fishing business [VIDEO] https://t.co/CbmPhdXSr8



Despite Gove Snr clearly agreeing with his son – on camera, in the phone call with the reporter and in a statement provided prior to publication – the Guardian published the incorrect headline anyway. The article was held back until shortly before Gove Jnr’s appearance on Question Time for maximum damage and then co-ordinated with Remain spinners Will Straw and lyin’ Ryan Coetzee who then piled in on Twitter, knowing it to be untrue. Pretty low even by the standards of political campaigning…

Read for yourself the Turkey Cables in Full
 

These are the leaked diplomatic cables referenced by the Sunday Times last weekend which show British diplomats discussing plans to allow visa-free access to the UK for over a million Turks. The key sections are highlighted, for example this bombshell paragraph which argues Britain should “assess again the possibility of visa travel”.

:ban::ban:

Seriously, how much longer do we have to put up with this drivel?

The Socialist case for BREXIT
 

Today, Labour Leave released their own movie outlining their case for BREIXT.

In the new film “Lexit: The Movie”, produced by Labour Leave, and while Jeremy Corbyn today tells Labour supporters in Yorkshire to vote Remain to “protect workers across Europe”. Komrad Korbyns ’s brother Piers demolishes the argument:

One clip is quite compelling:

https://youtu.be/qlxNc8BE-rg

the text:

“The idea that the European Union is a happy-clappy haven for workers rights is complete nonsense… We do not need an unelected bureaucracy to tells us, ok, you can have these rights. They’re taking the power to defend these rights away from us. What’s this about? We can defend ourselves. And once you give away the power to defend yourself to someone else, you know they can stop defending you. Look at Greece. Were they defended? No.”

View Lexit the Movie:

https://youtu.be/pq72f81kkM4

So how much do we spend on the EU as a % ??

And is it really where we should be laying the blame ?

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...5e34bd9490.jpg

Cuts both ways?

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycl...04149_n-XL.png

Bob Geldof on QT tonight
 

Whilst not wishing to cross that great European Napoleon's maxim "never interfere with an enemy while he's in the process of destroying himself" the sainted one is on TV tonight open to questions. Bob doesn't like being questioned. In 2012:

...he lashed out at a reporter this week after he was asked about his tax arrangements, bizarrely demanding to know how many irrigation ditches her salary had built.
Geldof, who was in the Ethiopian capital Addis Ababa for the World Economic Forum, was interviewed by Times journalist Lucy Bannerman. Their encounter appeared to go very well at first, with Geldof talking about the huge changes that have taken place in Africa since Live Aid in 1985.
Then Bannerman asked him about his tax status. After confirming that he is a non-dom and can legally avoid income and capital gains tax on international earnings, Geldof laughed off the Sunday Times Rich List estimate of his worth (£32 million).
When pressed on how much tax he actually paid – the justification for the question being because his big idea, aid, can come from taxes – Geldof exploded.
“I pay all my taxes,” he shouted. “My time? Is that not a tax? I employ 500 people. I have created business for the UK government. I have given my ideas. I have given half my life to this.”
In a bizarre, heated exchange Geldof jabbed his finger repeatedly at Bannerman and demanded to know how many irrigation ditches she had built with her salary.
The tirade ended with Geldof yelling: “How dare you lecture me about morals”, before being led away by his entourage.

Actually Bob, lots of us would like to lecture you on your tax morals if you don’t pay in full what somebody else living in the UK might owe. I stress we don’t know whether you do or not, but you had the option of saying you do and got angry instead, which makes me think you’ve got something to get angry about.

And candidly, in that case Lucy Bannerman was absolutely right to question you as she did. Paying tax in the right place at the right time is a principle inextricably linked to solving the problems of poverty in Africa – and elsewhere. You can build as many ditches as you like. But candidly if you set an example by tax avoiding then you undo all your good works.

It’s your choice though Bob. You’ve no need to get angry. You can just either drop the non-dom claim or pay up instead. It’s not hard.


By the way - the £32m figure has now been updated to £100m. That's a lot of money to earn from a couple of crap '70's singles. Strange how this foreign pop star got extremely wealthy off the back of other peoples misery and now speaks for the "one percent" telling us we should stay in the EU.


Vote Leave.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...ea06d28e06.jpg

Looks like the BREXIT campaign is full of clowns.

Really not sure why the troll has moved onto Bob Geldof with his rants


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fastship, I suspect you must have a degree of hatred hiding within.
You don't like Bob Geldof. Fair enough.
You don't like his music. Fair enough.

But why do you continually refer to him as an Irish (not nice word to follow). Yes he is indeed Irish but you don't appear to make reference to the nationality of any other person involved. I suggest you have a basic deep-rooted dislike of anyone who isn't 'white English', at least that's what your drivel suggests.

And by the way...your opinions are :censored: too (rhymes with kite), so perhaps you and that Bob fella have more in common than you'd like to admit :rofl: :rofl:

Oh and before I forget...what exactly is it you do with your time anyway that allows you to have so much time to talk :censored: (rhymes with kite) and make a total buffoon of yourself!

Just as long as you keep reading.

But seriously, we are all expected to stop campaigning for a while -
A UK MP was shot earlier today, in Leeds.

Out of Respect
 

I suggest we stop posting for 24 hours out of respect for Jo Cox

...and let's all calm down a little huh?

RIP Jo Cox
 

Jo Cox dead: Latest updates after Labour MP is fatally stabbed and gunned down outside Birstall library - Mirror Online

xfiltrate

Perhaps
 

Seriously? you think that post is acceptable in the wake of todays tragic events?

This thread has been a serious low point for the Hubb for far to long and now its gone too far

Agreed :thumbup1:

Enough is enough. The uneducated derelicts who act like experts on this topic and spend their time writing total, utter and unashamed bollox on this thread should find a new home elsewhere. And good bloody riddance too :thumbdown: