Ok an interesting debate but still short on truth.

"Switzerland has twice the GDP of the UK" um, I think not. Plus the usual stuff about regulation strangling business. Well not good business which protects customers and employees. I worked in a high risk business which was quite rightly heavily regulated, without that people die, simple as. Would a brexit government simply dump all of this over night anyway? I doubt it, for one that would close the door on selling our products to the largest market place.

Both sides are still using scare stories which does make an informed choice tricky. Despite what you may have thought from my previous posts I'm still undecided and in convinced by either side.

GDP per capita Switzerland v Britain
 

GDP when viewed per capita is a much more significant figure.

GDP per capita 2015 Switzerland: $58,551.00 USD

GDP per capita 2015 Britain: $41,159.00 USD

"The usual stuff" your quote ....happens to require EU business to conform to EU specific regulations based on my research. Your - "without that (heavy EU regulations) people die" might be true - but, respectfully sounds like a industry specific scare tactic. It seems to me the industry - except the illegal drug business - will regulate itself if it's product or services are killing people. Unless, of course you are speaking of the military industrial complex?

Swizerland does have the highest quality of life in the world.... five times the exports of Britain, twice the GDP per capita of Britain - well almost ... I concede:
Switzerland's GDP per capita of $58,551.00 is not twice that of Britain's GDP per capita of $41,159.00. But it is much greater which is the point.

The speaker was referring to UK statistics although the discussion was generally about Britain. Correct me if you can.

UPDATE: I just found more recent stats: Switzerland per capita GDP $85,616.6 USD and UK per capita GDP $46,297.0
the speaker was very close to being correct Switzerland's per capita GDP is "twice that of Britain" very close to twice that of Britain/UK. http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD

xfiltrate

Thanks xfiltrate, but I'm not about to spend almost an hour watching a video, even if it's for Leave.

Hows about you post a short executive summary to save us all the time?

I wouldn't agree that Switzerland has the highest quality of life, Australia and Sweden are judged to be better.

And the GDP-PC ratings depend where you look. Your initial IMF version of lies... has Switzerland at just 9th place
9th Switzerland $58,551
25th UK $41,149

However, despite being the 5th largest world economy, the UK lags behind many of the 28 EU countries on GDP-PC, including Luxembourg, Ireland, Netherlands, Sweden, Austria, Germany, Denmark, Belgium and France.

Is that because we have a preponderance of lowly paid jobs filled by economic migrants? So much for the UK would collapse without EU migration.

Good point Tim. Our people don't want the lower paid jobs. Somehow they think it's better to be unemployed than to work for a minimum wage and then when foreign nationals come in to do those jobs the locals complain that 'these foreigners keep coming over 'ere and taking all our jobs'.

I do keep coming back to this thread, mostly out of amusement provided by a small number of posters who think they know it all....yet know nothing (or pretty close to nothing) in reality.

Please respond
 

Tim,
according to this erudite study:
Quality of Life Index by Country 2016

Switzerland beats out all other countries in the quality of life index. It ranks #1
and until you can post a study of comparable magnitude I will consider myself correct and you wrong. Your "study" is more of a newspaper article.

I did not claim, nor does the video that Swizerland ranked more than ninth place per capita gnp - only that it's per capita gnp was greater than that of the UK. If you want to refute my argument, please refute my argument and not claims I or the video have never made.

You have eluded to and the post following yours by ChrisFS really nails the essence of the video you have not the time to watch. What a shame. The video claims the real issue regarding Britain leaving the EU is that leaving the EU is necessary to protect herself from unwanted immigration. As quoted from the video and a recent study... 70 plus percent of Britain's population wants less immigration and 50 plus per cent want a lot less immigration.

Many EU countries are waving the immigrants through to the EU "welfare state" countries. Countries that provide more benefits for immigrants.

FYI, I agree whole heartedly with you, Tim, the UK would not collapse
without EU immigration and this point is made in spades in the video I posted.
Duh.

FYI1, Of the tens of thousands of recent immigrants to Sweden, only 350 or so have found documented / taxable jobs. Watch video for exact numbers.

How about a statistic describing the recent immigration to UK?

What the video suggests is a slow down of immigration so those already immigrated to the UK have time to enculturate and find jobs. And of course, it wants Britain to exit the EU.

Another question raised is if the two cultures are compatible?

Considering the majority of posts I have studied on this thread, the video might be well worth your time or I would not have posted it, even as entertainment as ChrisFS seems to view this thread.

xfiltrate

The origin of the thread itself is not necessarily entertaining to me, it's the comments from self-appointed 'experts' that entertains me. Honestly, some people are like a Rottweiler with a bone when another person has the audacity to disagree with them :rofl:

Some expert opinion, imho:

John Major: NHS at risk from Brexit 'pythons' Johnson and Gove

John Major: NHS at risk from Brexit 'pythons' Johnson and Gove | Politics | The Guardian

Apologies for quoting from the Guardian again. Its app is still free and readable offline, non-Murdoch owned and uses big words that are beyond the average Sun/Mail/Express reader.

And no mentions by the hubb "expert" of CIA balloons/tunnels in the Sahara, UFOs nor multiple copy/pastes of US DMV regulations in sight.

Anything that involves Boris makes me sceptical. He is a Grade 1 buffoon :helpsmilie:

And Farage says the imigrants want us wimmin :rolleyes2:

Can't we build some sort of wall round Westminster and Brussels and the LSE and various Cambridge campus' and public schools and leave them all to it.

Did you know the EU makes you more attractive and will result in you drinking coffee with a supermodel? Also, if we don't leave our teeth will fall out. Or maybe thats just next weeks scare stories?

At least out will upset the useless elite *******ds more because most of them want their snouts in another trough.

Andy

I assume he deliberately decided to not qualify the GDP per capita ( I knew and agree with your numbers) but he stated that Switzerland has double the GDP of the UK in order to strengthen his position. Hence my post about each side at best distorting facts, at worst simply deliberately lying.
Did he distort, mislead or lie?

It's no surprise that Switzerland has a higher per capita GDP but that (to me) doesn't sell the dream that they and therefore we would be better off out.

My point about regulation is that large and small business needs to be regulated if only to protect the public and customers, remember a lot of businesses operating in the UK are from countries that place little value on human life and a lot on the bottom line. A brexit government can't / won't allow a free for all. If you're an employee (I'm not so have no axe to grind) be careful what you wish for:-)
A well run business has nothing to fear from regulation.

That's how I used to regard him an amusing buffoon who was inconsequential to me.

Unfortunately he's a smart buffoon who knows very well how to play to his audience, hence my morons messiah name for him.

He and his ilk no matter what side they are on are scary people.

I've had the "pleasure" of dealing face to face with some Westminster politicians. Ok a small sample, and I really hope there is an exception to this rule, but they have all been deeply unpleasant individuals. Narcissistic, egotistical sociopathic twats.

Perhaps this should be included in the next revised dictionary!! bier

Are we having fun yet?
 

Geez Chris, my hot air balloons comments had little to do with the CIA, and were only attempts to provide an explanation as to why the "tracks"/ footprints of the bad guys in desert sands just ended with no bad guys in sight. Up, Up and Away!

But enough, I was banished to the Hub Pub from the desert region for having strange ideas/comments and since I am already in the Hub Pub and have no desire to be banished from here, for I have great uncertainty as to what would lie ahead.... let's continue with the topic at hand.

RussG, two very good points, the speaker probably did tilt it a little regarding the per capita gnp, but the point was logically made - and excellent point regarding regulation - I had not thought of it as regulating the "others" only that the Brits were being needlessly saddled with regulations when not exporting their own goods. Good points all.

Chris, the Guardian has yet to contact me, but if you keep promoting me, they might. :smartass:

xfiltrate

The video
 

I have watched your video and thanks for taking the time to post your link.
Of course, it is not necessary to "watch" but to listen, it being a dialogue between two people with a specific viewpoint.

A consistent viewpoint is taken over about 56 minutes which covers virtually everything that has been posted in here since January this year.
A few very recent issues are mentioned toward the end, it being made on 2 June, but otherwise the material has been covered in here.
So, there is the summary for anyone who doesn't wish to open the link.

My own summary is:
Each of us has one vote on 23 June and a very rare offer to undertake democracy in this country - a democracy that transcends party politics and all other forms of club-card loyalty to which we usually adhere, in complete contrast to the normal, run-of-the-mill representative form of democracy which is neither representative nor democratic.

Best not to pass up the opportunity, although I still suspect that the event of 23 June is just the start of a much longer process across the whole of the UK and across the whole of Europe.

Incidentally, I have a relative who has worked and lived in Switzerland for more than 30 years; the attributes accorded to that country in the video are accurate in my opinion (I last visited there in March this year).

Further to the video
 

Swiss democracy, today.
Switzerland rejects proposals for unconditional basic income by overwhelming majority | Europe | News | The Independent

Meanwhile, back at the ranch.
Labour considering backing universal basic income as official party policy | UK Politics | News | The Independent

Wow, Walkabout I like your summary better than the video!
according to Forbes per capita GDP
GDP UK $39,800
GDP Switzerland $58,100
Forbes Welcome

GNP and GDP are different in the following 19 minute video, he says GDP

http://www.prisonplanet.com/video-th...ut-brexit.html

blah blah blah dohdohdoh

Here's an example of the 2 sided argument in the UK.

EU referendum issues guide: Explore the arguments - BBC News

They can agree on nothing.

Typical politicians....they look for any opportunity to give the other side a black eye. The needs of the public come a distant second.

@Xfiltrate: I'm not disagreeing with your central argument but it's impossible to measure quality of life as it depends upon the individual's opinion. If you love theatres you might choose London, if you love sun you wouldn't!

GDP-PC is only important when comparing the hours needed to work to buy something that is internationally traded such as a new Sony HD TV or a new BMW car (but you still need to take into account local issues such as personal tax rates and if your home country has high taxes on cars then it takes longer).

Spain is very low on GDP-PC but where I am, a small beer (which comes with a free tapa) is €1.20, a triple shot of whisky is €1, a three course midday meal just €8, the excellent local wine is €8.25 for 5 litres (7 bottles), our water rates (with swimming pool) are €40 pa, council tax and rubbish collection €120 pa, car tax is €56 pa, 6 tonnes of wood for winter fuel is €350, and so on. So GDP-PC is only part of the measure.

In highly industrialised societies ..............
 

For the future, your boss could be a robot:-
Switzerland rejected universal basic income - but that doesn't mark the end of the idea for Europe | Editorials | Voices | The Independent

Don't functioning democracies need a fair and balanced press and an educated and rational electorate? How are people supposed to make an informed vote on the EU? I think the referendum has been extremely damaging to the UK and will sow divisions for years to come, no matter what the turnout. If democracy is the power to choose, well what's really the point of that if the electorate is unable to make rational, fact based decisions?

As someone who is obviously interested in the political process, are you not concerned that a great deal of the Brexit campaign isn't about economics, history or the complex workings of trade agreements and power, but simply a lot of deep anti-immigration sentiment whipped up by a very conservative and divisive print media, who blame the EU and immigration for the fallout of what is actually the fault of an economic doctrine that even the IMF says is creating stagnation and destructive inequality?

Some commentators here openly admit they don't care what qualified people have to say, and would rather reduce the entire argument down, complex though it is, to some sort sort of binary choice, based on sentiments rather than facts. It seems a strange concept of democracy if a great majority of the electorate rely on soundbites and heavily biased reporting from a media whose editorial stance is dictated by less than six individuals - none of which seem to like the electorate much and don't pay any tax either.

Quoting from that right wing Cameron/Osborne mouthpiece The Guardian yet again. Sorry. Not. :innocent:

On the anniversary of D-day, we need the European Union more than ever

On the anniversary of D-day, we need the European Union more than ever | Harry Leslie Smith and Eddie Izzard | Opinion | The Guardian

With that last post I forgot to add this extract which is circulating in email.
As it happens, a couple of facts -
Driverless cars will be introduced to UK roads next year.
Parts of Chile have so much solar energy that they give it away.

In 1998, Kodak had 170,000 employees and sold 85% of all photo paper worldwide. Within just a few years, their business model disappeared and they went bankrupt.

What happened to Kodak will happen in a lot of industries in the next 10 years - and most people don't see it coming. Did you think in 1998 that 3 years later you would never take pictures on paper film again?

Yet digital cameras were invented in 1975. The first ones only had 10,000 pixels, but followed Moore's law. So as with all exponential technologies, it was a disappointment for a long time, before it became way superior and got mainstream in only a few short years. It will now happen with Artificial Intelligence, health, autonomous and electric cars, education, 3D printing, agriculture and jobs.

Welcome to the 4th Industrial Revolution. Welcome to the Exponential Age.

Software will disrupt most traditional industries in the next 5-10 years.

Uber is just a software tool, they don't own any cars, and are now the biggest taxi company in the world. Airbnb is now the biggest hotel company in the world, although they don't own any properties.

Artificial Intelligence: Computers become exponentially better in understanding the world. This year, a computer beat the best Go player in the world, 10 years earlier than expected. In the US, young lawyers already don't get jobs. Because of IBM Watson, you can get legal advice (so far for more or less basic stuff) within seconds, with 90% accuracy compared with 70% accuracy when done by humans. So if you study law, stop immediately. There will be 90% less lawyers in the future, only specialists will remain. Watson already helps nurses diagnosing cancer, 4 time more accurate than human nurses. Facebook now has a pattern recognition software that can recognize faces better than humans. In 2030, computers will become more intelligent than humans.

Autonomous cars: In 2018 the first self driving cars will appear for the public. Around 2020, the complete industry will start to be disrupted. You don't want to own a car anymore. You will call a car with your phone, it will show up at your location and drive you to your destination. You will not need to park it, you only pay for the driven distance and can be productive while driving. Our kids will never get a driver's licence and will never own a car. It will change the cities, because we will need 90-95% less cars for that. We can transform former parking space into parks. 1.2 million people die each year in car accidents worldwide. We now have one accident every 100,000 km, with autonomous driving that will drop to one accident in 10 million km. That will save a million lives each year.

Most car companies might become bankrupt. Traditional car companies try the evolutionary approach and just build a better car, while tech companies (Tesla, Apple, Google) will do the revolutionary approach and build a computer on wheels. I spoke to a lot of engineers from Volkswagen and Audi; they are completely terrified of Tesla.

Insurance companies will have massive trouble because without accidents, the insurance will become 100x cheaper. Their car insurance business model will disappear.

Real estate will change. Because if you can work while you commute, people will move further away to live in a more beautiful neighborhood.

Electric cars will become mainstream until 2020. Cities will be less noisy because all cars will run on electric. Electricity will become incredibly cheap and clean: Solar production has been on an exponential curve for 30 years, but you can only now see the impact. Last year, more solar energy was installed worldwide than fossil. The price for solar will drop so much that all coal companies will be out of business by 2025.

With cheap electricity comes cheap and abundant water. Desalination now only needs 2kWh per cubic meter. We don't have scarce water in most places, we only have scarce drinking water. Imagine what will be possible if anyone can have as much clean water as he wants, for nearly no cost.

Health: The Tricorder X price will be announced this year. There will be companies who will build a medical device (called the "Tricorder" from Star Trek) that works with your phone, which takes your retina scan, your blood sample and you breath into it. It then analyses 54 biomarkers that will identify nearly any disease. It will be cheap, so in a few years everyone on this planet will have access to world class medicine, nearly for free.

3D printing: The price of the cheapest 3D printer came down from $18,000 to $400 within 10 years. In the same time, it became 100 times faster. All major shoe companies started 3D printing shoes. Spare airplane parts are already 3D printed in remote airports. The space station now has a printer that eliminates the need for the large amount of spare parts they used to have in the past.

At the end of this year, new smart phones will have 3D scanning possibilities. You can then 3D scan your feet and print your perfect shoe at home. In China, they already 3D printed a complete 6-storey office building. By 2027, 10% of everything that's being produced will be 3D printed.

Business opportunities: If you think of a niche you want to go in, ask yourself: "in the future, do you think we will have that?" and if the answer is yes, how can you make that happen sooner? If it doesn't work with your phone, forget the idea. And any idea designed for success in the 20th century is doomed in to failure in the 21st century.

Work: 70-80% of jobs will disappear in the next 20 years. There will be a lot of new jobs, but it is not clear if there will be enough new jobs in such a small time.

Agriculture: There will be a $100 agricultural robot in the future. Farmers in 3rd world countries can then become managers of their field instead of working all days on their fields. Aeroponics will need much less water. The first Petri dish produced veal is now available and will be cheaper than cow produced veal in 2018. Right now, 30% of all agricultural surfaces is used for cows. Imagine if we don't need that space anymore. There are several startups who will bring insect protein to the market shortly. It contains more protein than meat. It will be labeled as "alternative protein source" (because most people still reject the idea of eating insects).

There is an app called "moodies" which can already tell in which mood you are. Until 2020 there will be apps that can tell by your facial expressions if you are lying. Imagine a political debate where it's being displayed when they are telling the truth and when not.

Bitcoin will become mainstream this year and might even become the default reserve currency.

Longevity: Right now, the average life span increases by 3 months per year. Four years ago, the life span used to be 79 years, now it's 80 years. The increase itself is increasing and by 2036, there will be more that one year increase per year. So we all might live for a long long time, probably way more than 100.

Education: The cheapest smart phones are already at $10 in Africa and Asia. Until 2020, 70% of all humans will own a smart phone. That means, everyone has the same access to world class education. Every child can use Khan academy for everything a child learns at school in First World countries. We have already released our software in Indonesia and will release it in Arabic, Suaheli and Chinese this Summer, because I see an enormous potential. We will give the English app for free, so that children in Africa can become fluent in English within half a year.

Boom!

And then the war with the machines will start.. We will all be Terminated

Sent from my G7-L01 using Tapatalk

That binary choice
 

Returning to this point for a moment: it reminds me of my earlier question about the optimum number of levels of government but also the fact that we do vote for UK politicians - for better or for worse.

There was an earlier post that praised the democratic nature of the EU - I never could identify with that.
It may be like that in Germany but here in the UK the public do not vote for the EC commissioners (I see that Neil Kinnock and his side-kick wife have joined us from the continent for a while).
THe UK gets about 70 MEPs among 700+ total and are voted down on every occasion by virtue of this inbuilt minority or by use of Qualfied Majority Voting.
In essence, the UK, for many reasons - common law being but one - is not compatible with the current arrangements of the EU.

In any case, the European Parliament is notorious for acting as a mere rubber stamp to the EC; as just one instance, the EU parliament cannot introduce legislation, it simply accepts the proposals that come from the EC.
So, the EU parliament is less of a representative democracy system than that of our own UK system which has it's own gaping issues that need to be addressed.
But, the binary choice presented at present is not about the many UK internal issues but the external issue of the EU; in that we all need to make a judgement of where it is going, 10-20-30 years and more ahead.

I hold the opposite view: just as the Scottish referendum provided renewed impetus to that part of the UK, so this national referendum will do the same for the rest of the country.

I have attempted to address some aspects of your post in my last one - the binary choice.

For the economic arguments I refer you to the thread "the economic crisis" which lies within this HUBB pub.
In summary, the so called economic experts "would say that, wouldn't they", being fully integrated pieces of the problem.

It is all evolving.

At a very rough guess it takes something like 40 years for half the current population to die and be replaced. So, assuming one side wins by 1% and no imbalance of mind changing occurs we have concensus until 2036 or so. Birth rate vs immigration and qualification to vote may change the numbers but the answer isn't 2018 as I'm sure some poor losers will want.

Same goes for Scotland, ask again in a generation, although maybe we have done this in the wrong order, Scotland in the EU and England out may fit better.

I still think if we vote stay the EU will give us a beasting for rocking the boat.

Andy

I'd be interested to hear 'expert' opinion on this...

EU referendum: Chancellor says NI border checks 'inevitable' if UK leaves EU - BBC News

If it happens there it'll happen everywhere. Or is Georgie boy just stirring the pot

The border was open before we joined the EU and those treaties still exist. The Irish government would have to choose between hacking off their biggest trading partners and upsetting their masters in Brussels. They'd fudge something to have their cake and eat it (this would be known as a fudge cake :innocent: )

Andy

Andy, you are right because....

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/...olf-293714.jpg

Spain?
 

Tim, right now we are living in a beach house up on the north coast of Spain - if you need 6 tonnes of wood for winter, you must be in Teruel, Spain? Now that we have met in the Hub Pub, hope we bump into each other in a Spanish cafe.

Based on my own experience - bi annual visits to Spain over the last twelve years, I defer to

Cost of Living Index by Country 2016

While your analysis sounds enticing, the reality is quite different - using your own criteria - local purchasing power - the local purchasing power in Spain is 105.31% when compared to New York City as 100% Meaning residents of Spain have to pay 5.31% more than residents of New York city for the same local goods and services relative to local wages.

click "Explain these indices" on web site for an explanation.

Of course, most probably your "wages" and my "wages" are not taken into account as the chart uses "average wage" in each country - and via a search each city. Guess it is just the old Peace Corps volunteer showing his teeth here. Your glote over how inexpensive Spain is - might be true for you and me and other expats, but very misleading in general.

I found the chart most interesting, and useful by contributing to an understanding of the issue/issues being discussed here. And, it forwards my argument of PC GDP.

xfiltrate

xfiltrate, sometimes in life it can be a good idea to let things so. You have your opinion, others have theirs. Anyone who wanted to make their point has done so. There is no reason to keep it going. You will not change other people's opinions and they won't change yours.

I'm sorry, but that's not correct..

Local purchasing power, means ; Local Purchasing Power shows relative purchasing power in buying goods and services in a given city for the average wage in that city. If domestic purchasing power is 40, this means that the inhabitants of that city with the average salary can afford to buy 60% less typical goods and services than New York City residents with an average salary.

So.. in fact people in Spain can buy relatively 5% more stuff than people in New York..

Which btw, is a ridiculous comparison, since living costs in NYC are skyhigh..

Representative democracy in action, again.
 

Pro-EU MPs could stage guerrilla campaign to reverse Brexit decision | Politics | The Guardian

The article is an interesting reflection on representative democracy and what it might mean to our elected representatives - by no means is it the first time that UK MPs have stated that they are not elected to represent those who elected them.

The article is about one day old and has over 7000 comments attached at the end.

The vision of the EU, for the EU
 

I was struck by a recent news item concerning the island of Puerto Rico (a USA territory) and how it is getting on with it's economy.


A couple of sample articles from the internet illustrate the current problems of Puerto Rico (PR), although the news item that caught my eye was more related to the preponderance of USA companies that have their businesses registered in States such as Delaware which is reported to be an “internal” tax haven* within north America.
Op-Ed: Puerto Rico’s Crisis Should Matter to Connecticut’s Residents | ctlatinonews.com


Puerto Rico's poor economy could lead to Connecticut influx


What struck me are the similarities between the individual US States, their relationships with the federal government and the situation between the EU and it's current 28 members.
Fundamentally, Germany does not want to carry the debts of the southern European countries, such as Greece, any more than the central government of the USA, which does have a common currency, wants to bail out Puerto Rico.


The first link above gives these as some of the issues current in PR:-
“The reasons behind the island’s current economic woes are complex, with blame to go around: poor budget practices, federal funding shortfalls, predatory lending by financial institutions, the Great Recession, demographic changes draining the tax base, and the complicated and oft unjust relationship between the United States and Puerto Rico, to count just a few.”
At least some of these are analogous with the situation in the EU.


It was reported somewhere or other, but I lost the reference, that the German balance of payments (something that is rarely mentioned in the UK nowadays) is as much in the black as the combined balance of payment accounts of all the other 27 members are in the red.
Basically, this is because the introduction of the Euro gave the German industrial effort a massive boost via the intrinsic currency deflation this achieved compared with the earlier use of the Deutschmark.
Meanwhile, the German banks lent money to countries such as Greece to rebuild, for instance, their military hardware including new Leopard tanks and new submarines, all built in Germany.
Now, Greece cannot pay the loans back and so the banks are recompensed by means of ECB funds – the vast majority of recent funding for Greece did not go to that country but to the creditor banks.
This is basically what happens when you run out of other people's money.


Perhaps the USA will learn a trick or two from the example of northern/southern Europe although it does seem that they aim to kick the can along the road some way by invoking bankruptcy protection for PR.


The future for the EU can be seen in the contrast between the poor and rich States of the USA; the solution is freedom of movement of populations to go to where the work is, combined with single, consistent levels of taxation, a common currency and standardised laws to enable this to occur.
As each new country is assimilated into this new order, then new ones can be found looking toward the east and to the south, into Africa (Morocco has a long-standing application to join the EU).

*In Europe, the equivalent to Delaware are Andorra, Luxembourg, Ireland and a few others for either personal or corporate tax affairs.

Nice figures, but they don't reflect reality—Spain has a massive black economy approaching 25% of GDP.

Thanks for the Correction
 

Thanks Donkey, you were right in correcting me... the chart should be interpreted as an average wage earner in Spain can afford to purchase 5%+ more goods and services than an average wage earner in New York city.

That is exactly my point to Tim. Living costs relative to the average wage earner in New York are "sky high" this means living cost for the average wage earner in Spain are very close to sky high.

Thus, while the cost of living in Spain for expats - like Tim and myself, seems inexpensive it is almost sky high for the average Spanish wage earner.
Thanks for the correction.
Tim, I did not consider Spain's "massive black economy of 25% GDP," but assuming the other countries also have massive black economies, the comparison should hold. I know little about the illegal drug economies
of the U S and the UK (for example) except that both are massive.

xfiltrate

Maybe this helps the cost of living discussion
 

A little while ago it was reported that the UK now includes for the illegal drug economy in the GDP figures for this country.
It being totally illegal, at present anyway, such figures are arrived at by some form of estimation.

IIRC, there is also included an estimation of the GDP turnover for prostitution.
Only the wacky UK or perhaps the USA does the same?
Anyway, it tells a good story and no one really seems to care.

In your own ways you are all agreeing with the late George C:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk

all is not lost in the shadows,at least in the UK
 

Walkabout, thank you for all your contributions to this topic, if Uk is doing it
(pun intended) I wonder if all other EU GDP numbers (pun intended) include similar estimates for prostitution and illegal drug sales.

Prostitution is legal in Argentina and given a wink and a nod in Spain, well if you are lucky - I would not risk it in Spain. Anyway, I always deduct the expense of my mistress in Argentina from my taxable income. We might be on to something here, any one up for a great documentary? I will leave you to decide if the last is a pun or not and remain your fellow hubber.
Viva 23 de junio
xfiltrate

Cameron/Farage Debate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oB0SHTh08E

You're trying to twist the argument to suit statistics that are firstly wrong and secondly meaningless.

I prefer to think of it that he is agreeing with me! :rofl:

Adios for now
 

Isn't that like stating the particular issue we are discussing, which is, the relative merit of PC GDP when deciding a yea or nay vote on 23 de junio, can be carried on without any mention whatsoever of established PC GDP perentages?

A la UK v Switzerland.

Statistics determine if an argument is meaningless or not, valid arguments are based on statistical evidence. So yes, as you have stated, I do tend to twist my arguments to fit the statistics.

If we agree the representation of PC GDP in this instance is wrong because of neglecting to consider an undefined "Black economy" of 25% how can that point of view be separated from any other economy based statistic? Walkabout has suggested that UK "black economies" might be estimated and included in UK economy statistics.

Frankly, he might have been joking. But who knows, which is probably your point exactly, so I will now address the Puerto Rican economy as related to his comparison of th EU and the USA. Have you read his post "The vision of the EU, for the EU" posted 16 hours ago? It is excellent.

Tim, this has been great fun. I do hope we meet again in Spain, Argentina, or here in the hubb pub. Here, Here!

xfiltrate

It's no joke
 

The UK press reported this widely at the time - all of 2 years ago.
And it transpires that it is an EU regulation to boot.

During the debate here in the UK, it was suggested a while ago that the big growth activities in the UK are dealing in "legal highs" (which has recently been declared to be illegal) and people trafficking; from the latter follows the black economy of low wage rates for washing cars on the high street - it is amazing how many people need their vehicles to be washed by hand by someone other than themself.

Drugs and prostitution add £10bn a year to UK economy - Telegraph

Drugs and prostitution to be included in UK national accounts | Society | The Guardian

Walkabout, I am sure the late George C. (as per his entertaining video you recently posted) would have enjoyed the other than one's own hand (quoted above) reference/prositution but I have no hope that ChrisFS would.
So here is my heart felt message to ChrisFS:

"In fact, groups are probably formed by mutual disagreement instead of mutual agreement and are held together by that disagreement."

I am still reflecting on your - The vision of the EU, for the EU - post and will rspond soon.

C-yaaaaa
xfiltrate

Where next for the ECB?
 

DEUTSCHE BANK: The ECB is on course to destroy the eurozone

"Bad businesses survive while good businesses don't invest" - a simple enough sentence from this critique of the ECB by a bank that is often considered, itself, to be on the brink.

The link below says more about the similarities, and contrasts, of the USA and the EU - all from nearly 5 years ago and totally relevant today.
http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2...-euroland.html

It also relates to my latest post above about how the Euro is performing; it all comes down to "Sovereign currency" and the new economic perspectives article certainly puts that into perspective.

There has to be a single nation of Europe for the Euro to continue to exist - "whatever it takes" said the President of the ECB.
(the USA achieved that by means of a civil war).

What most of you fail to realise is that the average man or woman on the street is not equipped, qualified or educated to a level that would allow them to make major economic decisions on behalf of the whole country. Speaking from a personal point of view, I perform a 'professional' role in my career. I am reasonably intelligent but you may as well ask me how many people live on Saturn as ask me about the definitive facts of the Brexit campaign. There are some folk who have an idea what might happen if we left the EU but even they are not sure.
You can flout all the opinions you want guys, it just depends on who wrote them and what they want you to believe. That doesn't give anyone the right to appoint themselves as experts and force their opinions on others.
Leaving decisions to those in power is no guarantee that the right choice will be made but it's a darn sight better than leaving it to the public who have proved time and time again that they don't know what they're doing. Give the public a vote on moral issues but not major economic matters.

And that's why I say it's a load of bollox and a dangerous weapon to put in the hands of people who don't know how to use it with any confidence. Some of you are posting opinions that you clearly believe in. That doesn't make you right and everyone else wrong. It is people like you who tend to be the most dangerous in society. You create a storm, add in a few fear factors, beat others to death with your opinions and all in the hope you will get what you want. Unless you are a proven expert in some relevant matter perhaps some of you should be quiet, there are too many people who can be influenced by your tripe.

What on earth makes you think there are definative economic facts? When have they ever predicted anything? Find me the billionaire who bet on Uranium futures the day the oil price doubled and now works at the LSE or bank of England because it owes it to his fellow man to use his skills for the good of all.

This is a morale decision. Should we tell Brussels to do one and Westminster to pay us the attention we are due, or do they know what is better for us? Are we prepared to choose our own path and risk failure, or risk a mass failure with Europe? Do the Elite need bringing down a peg?

What annoys me is that the out campaign have been drawn into this silly game. Freedom with risk is out, different risk is in. The pity is the Tories have managed to back both horses and the rest are playing tiddlywinks and will simply declare they really wanted "insert-name" to win.

I predict if we leave MP's will vote themselves a payrise. If we don't leave I predict they will vote themselves one anyway. Bet the bookies (who can predict results when there are actual facts, but don't bothere when there aren't) won't give me odds worth the shoe leather to find out.

Andy

I'm not suggesting there are any definitive economic facts, hence the point I made that it would be pointless to ask me. I don't see where I said that but if anyone is going to make decisions then leave it to those who are perhaps maybe on a good day without any wind or rain just a little bit more likely to have an idea of what might be the right path to take.

Brexit is far from a moral decision however it has been hijacked and turned into one by idiots who shout the loudest and rabble rouse the average person who has no idea about the consequences. It is an economic matter.
A diluted version of this hype is the England football team when a major tournament comes along. The press, media and every man on the street in every pub in the land says they're gonna win it, yet somehow the team usually gets sent home with it's tail between it's legs after dire performances.

I don't know if we are better to be in than out or vice versa but I sure ain't gonna seek counsel from other folk who are so far up their own arses they think their point is the only one.

Xfil,
I just clicked on my earlier link and it works fine - if it is still an issue, it is blog number 16 in the primer for Modern Monetary Theory in this link:
Modern Monetary Theory Primer - New Economic PerspectivesNew Economic Perspectives
(that is a great read itself - a whole book, in effect, about MMT).

My PM inbox is cleared now (no conspiracies, it just filled up) so all of my grateful readers can communicate again.
:rofl:

As an aside, it is you guys in the States who publish among the best of the stuff on the web (sure, there is junk also but most people on here can discern the difference).

A couple of points:

A similar argument has been used throughout UK history to deny the vote to women or anyone other than those who own land, plebs et al.

It works OK for Switzerland; by your argument the UK is backward compared with countries, such as Switzerland, that use referenda extensively. It's the same as the line taken by some with the theme that the UK cannot govern itself.

Increasingly looks like a stitch up within the Tory party which grabbed the leadership of both campaigns.

At Culloden the landed gentry sent half of their sons to fight for the government forces and half to fight for the bonnie Prince, thereby ensuring the continuity of the family gene pool and the land ownership.

It is a standard tactic; in this case, without real blood on the floor, they wlll all be forgiven after 23 June and it is then "business as usual"?

We have not had peace in Europe for 70 years, what about Yugoslavia, what about Northern Ireland, What about the Falklands (not in Europe I know, but part of the sovereign territory of a European country)? Was the cold war really peace? And European countries have been involved in numerous other wars, including starting them. A British soldier has died in action almost every year since WW2.

here is a list of wars in europe since WW2, it doesn't include police actions and peace keeping, such as Northern Ireland

Greek Civil War (Greece)
Invasion of Czechoslovakia (USSR)
Ten-Day War (Slovenia vs. Yugoslavia)
Croatian War of Independence (Croatia vs. Yugoslavia)
Georgian Civil War
East Prigorodny Conflict (Ingush militia vs. Russia)
War of Transnistria (Transnitria vs. Moldavia)
Bosnian War (Bosnia vs. Yugoslavia)
Albanian Rebellion
First Chechen War
War of Dagestan
Second Chechen War
Russo-Georgian war
2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine
2014 Crimean crisis
War in Donbass
2014 Russian military intervention in Ukraine


Europe has enjoyed many years of peace previously, notably after the Napoleonic wars.

remaining in the EU actually represents one of the greatest threats to our security since the end of the cold war.

This scared the crap out of me!! A facinating and informative insight to the current political situation.

We are about to make the biggest single decision of our lives, our children's lives, and their children's lives, don't get it wrong!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0

We can't be wrong, the winners will write (and even re-write) the history. Look at all those silly Americans, Indians, Texans and Irish breaking away from the biggest Empire in the world and heading off to certain economic misery etc.

Andy

Real politics of the EU
 

The UK has not declared war since 1939 and is unlikely to do so again for the foreseeable.

But, it has engaged in conflicts worldwide, as exemplified by the previous list and has lost servicemen, and women, to active service in every year since 1939, except during 1963 - see the national arboretum memorial in Staffordshire for the details.

In part answer to your questions, those european forces which are capable of projecting force do it; many european nations do not have that capability which may be why the EU wishes to develop a common armed forces to match it's embryonic foreign policy* (you do have to relate to the fact that there is such a thing as the latter in existence now and there are EU "embassies" scattered around the world including one for London).

* the current head of this EU diplomatic corp (their description, not mine) is an ex-member of the Italian communist party and yet another non-elected appointee.

I think we should all say 'feck it' ......and run away and drink beer! beerbeerbierbier

I'm up for that beer

War is never going to be like 1914 or 1814 again. As soon as a major power is an obvious loser things get very very bad :nuke:. Instead there will be cold war, hacking, proxy support of terrorists etc. The Russians (for want of an example Bogeyman) will find it just as easy to support nut jobs in the EU as out until the people all feel European. So far there doesn't seem much progress in making all the people of Belgium, the Spanish Peninsula, the island of Ireland etc. feel like that, which leaves open the possibility that going smaller and not having responsibility for other peoples minorities might a better option. If the EU sends a British regiment under a German commander to shoot Catalans I wonder how European we would all feel?

Andy

In Der Spiegel interview German finance minister rules out Britain’s chances of enjoying bloc benefits from outside EU

This is a really interesting point - as mentioned previously, if Britain were to vote Brexit and it would not be tenable for the UK to have further access to the common market, given if it did, like Norway, it would have to uncontionlaly accept most of the EU rules and regulations. Otherwise it would not be democratic. Why are people voting Brexit again?

Seems to be a common theme of spamming the HuBB with irrelevant posts and links.

Anyway everyones forgotten the 3rd option

http://www.exmouthjournal.co.uk/polo..._630/image.jpg

I considered posting that about a week ago, but desisted.
I recall that someone or other is looking for the culprits with a sense of humour.

Of course, men (young ones anyway) are always looking out for the beaver.

Back on the economic tack, "well, he would say that wouldn't he" but he is also quoted, separately, to the effect that Germany would cut a trade deal with the UK asap after a Brexit vote so as to protect the German car manuf industry.

This is him, by the way:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Sch%C3%A4uble
I referenced a day or two ago what the German (lack of) balance of payments is doing to the rest of Europe, and the Eurozone in particular.
Here is the more technical description:-
https://ineteconomics.org/ideas-pape...cing-conundrum

As it happens, Herr S is ignoring international treaties of the WTO.

The broad theme contained above is known as "moral hazard" - well worth a bit of research for anyone who is interested and has the time.

None of the graffiti artists round here could spell that. I blame the politicians or the immigrants or the EU or....:blushing:

Andy

Definitely the immigrants....they come over here and steal all our jobs and write on all our signs :rofl:

Attachment 17768

Who'd have thunk it? ..........
 

............ there were 4 elections in the UK yesterday.
The Conservatives just got wiped out in four elections overnight (IMAGE) | The Canary

The times they are a changing.
Just another protest vote, probably - nothing to do with the ref in two weeks or so.

USA v EU bailouts
 

Originally posted by Walkabout:
"What struck me are the similarities between the individual US States, their relationships with the federal government and the situation between the EU and it's current 28 members.
Fundamentally, Germany does not want to carry the debts of the southern European countries, such as Greece, any more than the central government of the USA, which does have a common currency, wants to bail out Puerto Rico."

Wallkabout, I have been wrestling with your post mentioning Puerto Rico's need for a bailout - although Puerto Rico is not one of the fifty United States, Puerto Ricans are American citizens as pointed out here on the floor of the House of Representatives by Speaker of the House Paul Ryan. Hours ago....

House passes Puerto Rico rescue | TheHill

"Ryan made a moral case for the bill, arguing that the island's 3.5 million residents — who are American citizens — need Congress's support. "
"The Puerto Rican people are our fellow Americans. They pay our taxes. They fight in our wars," he said. "We cannot allow this to happen."

Needless to say, the Puerto Rican bailout bill passed the House of Respresentatives yesterday because Puerto Rico faces default on 2 billion dollars of debt payments on July 1.

Could, or would representatives of the E U ever make a moral case for, let's say bailout loans to Greece because the citizens of Greece are our fellow citizens of the European Union, they pay our taxes and they fight our wars?

Interesting to consider either way. Based on many years living and traveling within the European Union ..... I have heard a Spaniard complaining that "the French are prejudice against us, the French don't like the people of Spain.. We, the Spanish are not prejudice against the French." And then when the same Spaniard was asked "what about the people of Morocco," his answer was "a blank stare."

It would not be fair to characterize the majority of the Spanish as above, my point is that the EU is also facing prejudice of nationalities.
xfiltrate

The Week in Review.


Gosh – what a busy old week it has been and what weak week it has been for the poor, desperate REMAINIACS and their Project Fear. Let's see, where to start…


How about today and work backwards.


this is how they view democracy

Tory Peer and REMAINIAC Ros Altman sent out this twitter today:



Majority of MPs in all 3parties want to stay in EU. They're your democratically elected leaders. Voting Brexit overrules your own MPs

Majority of MPs in all 3parties want to stay in EU. They're your democratically elected leaders. Voting Brexit overrules your own MPs
— Ros Altmann (@rosaltmann) June 9, 2016

In her world our vote in a referendum does not count, it is MP's anyway who should decide this for us. Oh - Rosalind Miriam Altmann, Baroness Altmann, CBE appointed by Vichy Dave as "pensions expert" wasn't elected to her lofty position. A true example of a "europhile" with obvious ambitions to be an EU commisioner. Remainiacs are the gift that keeps on giving.

Do as you're told by your betters – or show her who leads whom on June 23rd and Vote Leave




from yesterday

Nine Out of Ten Economists...

Remember the oft repeated "nine out of ten economists" oppose BREXIT? We found out this week how they arrived at that figure:-

The figure was based on a self-selecting Ipsos MORI survey of economists from the Royal Economic Society and the Society of Business Economists.

The survey was sent out to 3,818 economists. Only 639 (or 16.7%) replied, of which 561 said Brexit would be bad for the economy. That’s just 14.7% of the total number of economists contacted. So rather than nine out of ten economists warning against Brexit, it was actually closer one in seven. Quite a lie from Gideon “Haw Haw” Osborne and Vichy Dave don't you think?


Clearly they think you are a mug. If you think you are not a mug – Vote Leave


from the day before:


Let's dig a great big hole and bury the EU in it..


and use this man's fine diggers with which to do it





earlier in the week


Just saying Good Bye:


Nigel's departing speech to the EU parliament:-

the week began with News From our Danish Cousins

Coming to a Town Near You
Daham Al Hasan fled from Syria to Denmark, leaving behind his three wives and 20 children. Under the Danish rules of family unification, one of his wives and eight of his children have joined him in Denmark. But Al Hasan wants all his children with him, as well as all his wives. Lawyers estimate that the remaining wives will be able to join their children in Denmark. The case has caused a shock not only because of what it will cost the Danish state just in child allowance, but because Al Hassan claims that he is too ill to work or even learn Danish. "I don't only have mental problems, but also physical problems..." He has admitted that his "mental illness" consists of missing the children he voluntarily left behind.
We all have rough weekends...

Pissed up Junker - again
This clown is the top EU man – head of the Comission no less. You can't sack him as you didn't elect him. The irony is He calls Hungary’s PM Viktor Orbán “the dictator” - at least he was ELECTED


In a rare sober moment this clown has threatened our country with severe retaliation should we vote to leave his rancid EU. The British people have stepped over better men to get to a fight. If you agree – Vote Leave


Monday Morning Blues

The “trougher” panicks
Acknowledging the inevitability of defeat, we see trougher Stephen Kinnock MP on the news sensing the end to his family's £12m serial looting and plundering spree of EU' taxpayers money. He's saying he is already organising a majority in parliament in a vote to maintain the single market and mass migration that goes with it when we vote BREXIT .

When we talk about the contempt for democracy amongst the EU oligarchs, here is a prime example. Leave means LEAVE.
Vote Leave.

From the same day
Have Mercy On Me
Johny Mercer MP who came out as a remainiac yesterday. He too ran a poll in his Plymouth constituency - they came out 74.1% for BREXIT with 400 respondents. His majority in the last election was 1,000. Doh!


After Brexit, Frexit? Poll Shows French Want a Referendum Too

Interesting research from Edinburgh University shows that 53 percent of French would like to hold their own vote on EU membership, and in Spain, Germany and Sweden more people are in favour of doing so than are opposed.

The report says the outcome of such a referendum in Germany and Spain would likely be “a firm affirmation of EU membership.” But the researchers found that in France and Sweden, less than 50 percent of respondents would vote to remain in the EU.

read the piece here on Newsweek:
After Brexit, Frexit? Poll Shows French Want a Referendum Too


Cameron on Turkey

Vichy Dave in the last few days as we all know says that Turkey "will not become a member of the EU until the year 3,000 AT THE EARLIEST and I would veto it" and that in no way should Turkey's accession influence how you vote in the referendum.

Probably not a complete answer
 

A few posts have arrived since I started typing - this is a reply to Xfiltrate's earlier question.

"Could, or would representatives of the E U ever make a moral case for, let's say bailout loans to Greece because the citizens of Greece are our fellow citizens of the European Union, they pay our taxes and they fight our wars?"

Probably not, but I would like to hear of other views on the question.

As I understand things, it is the case that the ECB is not equipped to deal with fiscal inequality across the EU; that is the crux of the sovereign currency "problem" that I highlighted = the Euro is not sovereign, because it is a mere monetary union and not a full blown equivalent of, say, the US $.

But, the ECB has indulged itself in a few shenanigans that some commentators consider to have been illegal.
As I read things, because the ECB have stepped outside of their remit or have juggled monies between EU accounts without the authority to do such.

This was known as the Euro crisis of a few years ago - around 2010/11 or thereabouts. Now that "crisis" is not as acute - the private banks, many of them German because of the earlier loans to buy armaments and Mercedes Benz cars, have been paid off from their earlier exposure to Greek debt and the Greeks have generations of accumulated, rolling, further debt owed to the ECB and the IMF and to be paid in perpetuity; hence why would another nation pick up the Greek bill for membership of the Euro club?

Another poll
 

Vote on the poll that is just below the main headlines in the link to see the result at present (I voted "don't know").
EU referendum: latest news and guides

+
30K+ sample:-
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/pol...-39dont-know39

I've never voted in my life....until now.....
I am no longer a 'ballot box virgin' and I have to say it feels rather good.

Here's the formula for my decision and it's based on my favourite hobby just to try to bring the whole topic into some sense in the bike world:

The total number of fingers in my gloves = 10
multiplied by
The number of wheels on my bike = 2
divided by
The number of years I have been riding bikes = 12
minus
The number of people who have told me I should not ride bikes = 100
multiplied by
The number of people who told me I should ride bikes = 3

Answer...-298.333

Had it been a positive number I'd have voted to leave. But it wasn't so that means I'm in. :D:D

And to me this formula makes about as much sense as any of the clowns who stand on a soap box and tell us what to do.

Sounds like bollox, but why not simpy toss a coin, double headed or otherwise?

As good a way of deciding as reading most of the rubbish posted so far

2017: The first anniversary of UK Independence Day!
 

Next summer: :D

Message for the Mods
 

Hey Mods - I wonder if you would consider re-setting the vote poll at the top of the page?

This thread has been running since January and is the biggest ever topic on this site. The real poll is a binary - Vote Stay or Vote Leave. Pretty much every aspect of the argument has now been covered so with less than two weeks left it would be interesting to see how all these people think now. How's about it?

well that would be fairly pointless

Exactly....that's my whole point! :rofl:

1803–1815 Napoleonic Wars
1804–1813 First Serbian Uprising
1804–1813 Russo-Persian War
1808–1809 Finnish War
1809 Polish–Austrian War
1815–1817 Second Serbian Uprising
1817–1864 Russian conquest of the Caucasus
1821–1832 Greek War of Independence
1821 Wallachian uprising
1823 French invasion of Spain
1826–1828 Russo-Persian War
1827 War of the Malcontents
1828–1829 Russo-Turkish War
1828–1834 Liberal Wars
1830 Ten Days' Campaign (following the Belgian Revolution)
1830–1831 November Uprising
1831 Canut revolts
1831–1832 Bosnian Uprising
1831–1836 Tithe War
1832 War in the Vendée and Chouannerie of 1832
1832 June Rebellion
1833–1839 First Carlist War
1833–1839 Albanian Revolts of 1833–39
1843–1844 Albanian Revolt of 1843–44
1846 Galician slaughter
1846–1849 Second Carlist War
1847 Albanian Revolt of 1847
1847 Sonderbund War
1848–1849 Hungarian Revolution and War of Independence
1848–1851 First Schleswig War
1848–1849 First Italian War of Independence
1853–1856 Crimean War
1854 Epirus Revolt of 1854
1858 Mahtra War
1859 Second Italian War of Independence
1861–62 Montenegrin–Ottoman War (1861–62)
1863–1864 January Uprising
1864 Second Schleswig War
1866 Austro-Prussian War
1866–1869 Cretan Revolt
1866 Third Italian War of Independence
1867 Fenian Rising
1870–1871 Franco-Prussian War
1872–1876 Third Carlist War
1873–1874 Cantonal Revolution
1875–77 Herzegovina Uprising (1875–77)
1876–78 Serbian–Ottoman War (1876–78)
1876–78 Montenegrin–Ottoman War (1876–78)
1877–1878 Russo-Turkish War
1878 Epirus Revolt of 1878
1885 Serbo-Bulgarian War
1897 Greco–Turkish War

Head scratch.

None of the wars you quoted involved EU member states at the time of the war. What point am I missing?

Edit: ... he said politely.

Andrew Neil interviews Nigel Farage

Next Friday its Ian Duncan Smith

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA80i3FNAts

ChrisFS:

Welcome to the club, those of us who have voted.

I look at it as a horse race, say the Kentucky Derby. Wagering by picking a horse at random might win me some money, but if I carefully sift through all the "experts" reports on each horse, the win/loss record of the horse, then I glass all the horses warming up, and listen to what my friend, who wins much more often than I do suggests, I greatly increase my chance of winning.

But seriously:

Deciding by chance is being less than deligent to all who dutifully marched off to war in the name of freedom. My Father did that march several times.... and later he explained that indeed "War is a Racket" as described by Major General Smedley Butler's speech and book:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3_EXqJ8f-0

But, having said that, my obligation to my Father, two of my brothers, and millions of other good men and women who also bought the lie of war, and to myself as a Jeffersonian American determined to keep my liberty - even if that means not only reading the "experts" but evaluating their analysis to the best of my ability and then voting for the course that would be best for me and for my country.

Thomas Jefferson:
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

Ben Franklin:
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

xfiltrate Eat, Drink and Vote wisely





xfiltrate

:rofl:

That's up to Touring Ted, it's his thread and poll, and if he wants to reset he can do (click edit poll).

How the EU aids the destruction of British industry
 

Courtesy of The Speccie

"Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant,
owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.


Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs.

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU.

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK.

The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.

I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea.

1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't care."

Share this. Email it to people who might be on the fence. Lets reveal the lies at the heart of remains economic argument. Above all make it stop and VOTE LEAVE

:rofl:

bierbier

Family
 

For more than 10 years as Elisa (rosa del desieto) and I have traveled the world by "motorbikes" we have come to consider Horizonsunlimited.com as extended family. The reason, quite frankly is.... for extended periods of time we have been in more communication with the HUBB than our genetic relatives.

At the precise moment of my last post - during which I referenced my 96 year old Father, he died. My brother Tom Home | Tom George Yacht Group - TGYG
Tom George Yacht Group/Clearwater, Florida sent me an e-mail saying our Father had died in his arms.

Look, I don't know if this was a coincidence or synchronicity but it happened,
just thought I might share this with you. Read the post....

We are flying to Florida. Vote!

Gracias xfiltrate

Sorry for your loss.

96 was one hell of an innings.

My condolences to you and your family. I'll be going through a similar situation in the coming weeks. Stay strong. Peace & Love.

What sad news. Condolences to you and your family. This is a generation that did great things.

Andy

That what was said was that the Eu had kept peace in Europe, the EU is not Europe and Europe is not the EU. The wars I had listed took place in Europe. Last time I checked, Britain was an EU member state! BY the same logic none of those ones you listed involved countries who were EU member states at the time (and many of them not now!)!! ;o)

Interestingly there was the Latin Monetary Union from the 1860's, some of whose members were involved in the wars during the "long peace". This was a French attempt to standardise precious metal content in coins giving them greater economic control over their neighbours, stop the Americans coming into their markets etc. Greece and the Vatican were chucked out for breaking the rules and it made naff all difference when it kicked off big style in 1914.

Who says history doesn't repeat itself.

Andy

Flexit - the Movie
 

A few weeks ago I mentioned Flexit as being a realistic approach for dealing with the EU during the process of Brexit – and it is a process, rather than a one-off decision of 23 June.
Alongside the 400+ pages of that document there is now “Flexcit – the Movie”.
This comes in 3 parts of approx 20 minutes apiece – so that takes up another hour of your busy life, but you could always eat this particular elephant in bite sized chunks by means of the 3 part serial.
The presenter is not the most riveting on this planet (although he does warm to his subject) but the content is right up there with the explanations of what is actually happening right now in the EU and how to get out of the latter successfully.


Part 1 -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HrIdJfMUcM


Part 2 – International regulations in particular – UNECE is the game to be playing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWVZV0Y-B04


Part 3 - More about the EU as the middle man of globalisation (and getting in the way).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMUPL12_aJ8
+ the last few minutes summarise the Harrogate agenda.

Lightening the mood
 

:rofl:

Another graphic
 

on the subject of a customs union:-

New EU symbol - just for the British
 

...and one final graphic that sums up everything else!