Bmw Gs To Go Round The World : A Myth - Breaking Down ?
 

hello,
i posted this a few months ago on horizonsunlimited ... and can t see the thread any more

Before my trip, I chose the BMW R100GS PD (I did not have many bikes experiences before), I thought it was the ideal bike and I had on the trip a few problems with (mechanic and others).
The more I read here on Horizons Unlimited, the more I talk around with bikers/overlanders, I have this feeling that BMW GS efficiency / reliability / adaptability, etc … is a MYTH well entertained by BMW (marketing, etc … ) so bikers/overlanders got affected by whatever (?) and entertain it sometimes (?).
What s your opinion about it ? The debate can be enlarged of course. I m still wondering ...
Some ideas, arguments, nuances (every point almost here under has been discussed more or less on Horizons Unlimited, differently, this is a kind of summary, some other points can be added of course) :

1- there are many different BMW GS models : from the R80G/S to the R1200GS, F650 : there are some differences, especially maintenance.

2- which round the world tour are we talking about ? most of overlanders do it independent alone with no sponsor no mechanic crew behind them ? how many kms driven, which intensity, how long the trip takes etc … ? I don t know, let s say for example something like more than one year or/and more than 50 000 kms.

3- what s your ideal bike to ride ? a relax one, a more fun / aggressive one, reliable (are you ready to accept mechanic problems or do you want no problem ?), confortable, light, heavy, etc … NB : riding a KTM Adventure / R1200GS is not the same idea as riding a 125cc messenger bike.

4- the motorbike is a "tool" to travel around, so it s reasonable to know it well, how it works, how to maintain / fix / repair (that was not my case for example) : some people go round the world on tuk tuk, scooter, 50cc, KTM Adventure and R1200GS. To compare with photography : the camera is a "tool" for the photographer : you give the best camera to a bad photographer if he does not know how to use it, he won t take good photos and even spoil / break it.

5- When there s a mechanic problem, you sometimes need to find spare parts and "manpower / mechanician" : is it easier with Japanese bikes than BMW ??? From my experience in those far countries :
a) BMW dealers are really rare, most of them don t have spare parts and are not experienced, sorry for them !
b) yes, there are definitely more Japanese bikes but mainly 50-200 cc ones : so does it mean that you will fix easily your 500cc-1200cc Japanese bike (1-4 cylinders, 2-4 valves/cylinder) ? + Now thanx to internet, we can order anywhere.

6- Here on Horizons Unlimited, there are more "complaints" and problems on BMW GS than happy posts : maybe, people tend to post rather their problems than their happiness, maybe it s human nature also :-)

7- According to chris scott survey on : http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...stats-you-4972, the BMW GS is surprisingly not in top position.

Your contribution, ideas, thoughts, reactions are welcome

happy trails,

Vincent, you posted this thread here about a year ago or even more if i remember correctly. Lot of discussion was involved.

The old post is here: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...und-world-5034

A myth or not I have used BMW for serious travels and I will do it again...

BTW: Your link doesn't work.

In the first 180kkm my BMW left me stranded once. The rotor had broken. After 150kkm the driveshaft failed but I still used the bike for some weeks after the vibration started.

Right now it is totally rebuild, engine is superb and the rest is pretty much HPN, without the gearbox which I never have opened.
I can't think of any other bike (maybe a XT?) wich can take so much beating and still start the second life after 180kkm, but if I find one I might buy it...

hello, Back in the early 90's Therese and I travelled on a 1978 R65 BMW from London to Australia.The bike was a basket case I picked up from another Aussie in London.It was put back together with a 2nd hand short motor as the big end was stuffed . I put on a set of Konis, new clutch and rechromed fork stantions.,a set of panniers and a Scottish lambs wool. with a carnet in hand we set off.It went well all the way home.26,000 k we did.the bikes only hicup was a rear main bearing in the gearbox went awol in Iran.( the only part I didn't look at) 2days and $25 US later I had rebuilt the gearbox with 5 new skf and timkin bearings in Isfahan .
The R80 GS that I've had for 21 years ,yes would have been a better chioce of bike, but it was at home . so the R65 And Bmw I think are very reliable.remember the R65 was a 400 UK pound bikeabout $600 Aussie at the time so you don't need to spend heaps .Oh ya I also drowned her in Pakistan ,a local paki and Alla had her going and back on the road within an hour.that another story

Yes a mith, but depending on wich one.
 

In my opinion, the GS is just waaaay too big and way too heavy, you dont need all that power-torque and you dont need all that carrying capacity unless you are traveling two up. and the BIG drawbacks are it is thirsty and expensive.

I would go better for a 500 to 650, single cyl, carbed, air cooled jap. I would use a Jap bike because the machanics in the third world would manage to fix them and pretty much nobody has dealt with broken down beemers.

Among the few good things the GSs are unbeatable in, are: comfort, looks and riding two up.

personally I would understand if anyone preffers a KTM Adventure, 990 or 640 to a DR650 or an XT600 or a GS since the previous are a lot more performance focused and some riders demand. but again you pay big time for that.

The caponord, multistrada or varadero are luxury sport-utes, that will certainly let you down on the first offroad situation you face, plus there are more plastic on them than there is motorcycle.

and the V-strom is just a joke, is an street bike in disguise.

Canuki.
zuk- xf650. (look for it on the net, its the streetable version of the DR).

Oh, and by the way, I live in Colombia (SA) and I have traveled all around my beautifull continent.

and the V-strom is just a joke, is an street bike in disguise
Really? So you've ridden one eh?

Instructions previously supplied to Vincent, the initiator of this thread:

1. Locate hornets' nest
2. Locate big stick.
3. Retreat ten metres from hornets' nest.
4. Charge at hornets' nest with big stick.

That should do it.

Simon

Hey Simon,
You'd be pissed off to if you paid $17,000 USD for a bike and had
it in the shop all the time! :blushing:

Here we go again... at least i have some time to discuss it.

But before we do that i'd like to ask: do you ever consider looking outside your own box and at least stop bashing the bikes you never owned personally and only backing up "third-party" stories, myths and gossips?

Well any boxer has lower centre of gravity than any other concept making it the same or even better maneuverable than the Strom exapmple, even if having more weight. Siting on a GS, shaking it on one side to another it feels much lighter than it acctually looks, the same is with handling. I.e. compare a 11xxGS with Capo Nord and you feel the v-twin Capo feels TOP heavy, altough the paper says it's not heavier.

PS: my ancient old R1100GS weights only 2 kilograms more (209kg) as the new V-Strom 1000 if i take ABS system off, catalythic converter, heated grips etc other bits to make it the same spec as V-Strom is. Add the benefit of low centre of gravity to that and add the shaft drive that weights more than a chain set.

The new R1200GS weights a huge 8kg less than a V-Strom btw, at the same time having all the gizmos installed aside the shaft drive, telelever etc.

Weight is a very relative form of word, i ment to say.


Well V-Stroms are a joke if i start backing up village gossips like some tend to do:

Too much fragile plastic for a real enduro, oil radiator placed the most worst place for serious offroad riding, high centre of gravity, alloy wheels, poor suspension, the clutch tends to blow etc

And do i have to listen all the stories saying any V-Strom is no real enduro, rather a street-bike, like nice plastic looking Honda HRV compared to a robust Landrover if you compare it with a robust GS?

That's what people and journalists say anyways. So it's true in the practice then, so it is a joke then eh? :)


Hmm... I always thought the BMWs are among the ugliest looking bikes on the planet, but i bought one after considering Affy Twin, Strom and Capo that all looked a way better optically. So what's wrong with me not wanting the Honda HRV type of very nice looking and well painted plastic "city-Jeep" rather than a robust Landrover Defender? :)

The beauty is in the looker's eyes.

Nice philosopy there. But a bit off i'm afraid... Firstly, i don't represent anybody other than myself, I just don't see logic in listening some third-guy saying about things he never experienced with his own skin. (how many times do i have to repeat that anyways? Read my "equivalent" words about V-Strom above to understand it from your perspective)

Re: the marketing videos etc. Then the only way is to start filming for Suzuki factory yourself and be a salesman, and do it much better than the Helge Pedersen, LWR etc. Where's the problem and what's so crap about it? Or you think it's not a good idea to inspire people to do something like that? We live (mostly) in a democratic world, Honda, Suzuki etc are much bigger-richer companies than the small BMW Motorrad, so why haven't they done better ads? Let me guess..., no proper bike to put on the show or they're afraid that the bike brakes down on the trip? I think they have a sheet loads more money to spend on ads if they'd really want to promote their dual sport bikes. So maybe someone more marketing knowledged person can post his/her thoughts about it here.


I think why the G(/)S was/is so successful is because it's the father of big trailies. V-Stroms, Capo Nords, Afrca Twins, 950 Adventures etc are all copycats, they come and go while the name GS has been here for more than 25 years thanks to continous innovation while preserving traditions symbiosis. So it's kind of "the knowledge lives on" case, while for example the Africa Twin didn't do any evolutionary turnpoints and was finally discounted, the same with some others. Not much big trailies have been in production more than 10 years and there's not much point to produce the same old technologies for a long time, time moves on. It's been discussed here before that the paralevers, telelevers, ABS, etc etc the bmw first used puts them into different class and it is also the reason why they are more expensive than the regular bikes. And what the people are most afraid of? It's the unknowing! That's why you see lot of innovator-bmw bashers, they see it as ugly if it differs from the rest of the mass. And it's the same reason why there are so loyal users for such bikes that are proven for them and RTWs and most of all: they like to ride it.

At least i don't see myself buying any other bike if it doesn't have low centre of gravity boxer twin engine, paralever shaft drive and telelever front. Separate engine and gearbox oil, dry clutch. Is there such big trailie? That's the bike i'd prefer according to my speciefic needs. Each of us have their own individual needs-requirements on the specs. Some prefer Enfields, some XTs, some 50cc scooters, but please let's stop knocking on what others need or should buy etc. So the GS has becomed so bloody popular, so what? Let it be and ride the (other) bike you like!


And you think the reported warranty case numbers represent the acctual reliability in equal basis?

I wouldn't be so sure about it altough i don't know much about the new generation BMWs.

The reality is much different i'm afraid aside broken bulbs etc minor ironing out issues that the picky bmw users go back to service with: according to the World's largest survey on the bike's reliablity, for you as a surprise, puts the BMW into the first place of reliability on all makes: see here.

It's the only non-jap company ahead on all japanese. Food for thought. It's on par with the Honda in the reliability level. Or you can come here and supress all the 10,000 biker's opinions who contributed with the speciefic survey?

No one tries to say it's some magical reliablity machine, that doesn't exist, but it doesn't lose any ground to others as this survey proves. There exist no perpetuum mobile concept. Human error is on any bike you buy, whether it's japanese, italian, chinese, german or what ever, they all brake down sooner or later. And if your bike brakes down in the middle of nowhere, so what? See the Grant & Susan Johnson's "The Achievable Dream" DVD for the answer! I hope it opens the eyes for those people who think the only reason to buy bikes is the (mythical) realiability.

One thing always remains - the word "reliability" itself represents a myth! On any bike and that includes the GSes! And i think especially it's a myth for those people, who expect to have mobile perpentuum in their bikes while having no mechanical knowledge themselves.

Just learn to live with the bike you really love to ride, enjoy it as an important part of your adventure travels and stop bashing-complaining others you have no experience with. And if you don't like the bike - sell it and buy a better one! :)

"When the Flag Drops, the Bullshit Stops"

Margus

Well any boxer has lower centre of gravity than any other concept making it the same or even better maneuverable than the Strom exapmple, even if having more weight. Siting on a GS, shaking it on one side to another it feels much lighter than it acctually looks, the same is with handling. I.e. compare a 11xxGS with Capo Nord and you feel the v-twin Capo feels TOP heavy, altough the paper says it's not heavier.

Are you sure about this, because my 1985 boxer twin has the centreline of the crankshaft above the wheel axles.. this was not true for my old triumph tiger cub, speed twin or trophy. It is also not true of current Enfields. having the majority of the crank below the axles makes a bike non top heavy, plus most of the bikes frame is above the engine.. It certainly feels top heavy...

have you much experience with these older bikes which to me are the 'norm', as i grew up with them and learned on them.

off topic a bit, but let's give it a go...
 

Quite sure about it.

The crank case bottom end is on the same level on all bikes anyway making the same ground clearance between the similar purpose bikes. I do agree the new oilhead's bmws cylinders height has been rised about 5 cm higher compared to old airheads due cornering angle reasons, especially for the R1100S and 1200S sports models and the width reduced for the same reason. But still the basics are the same - unlike the rest of concepts on boxers not much engine's main components, cylinder heads, carbs, air filters etc go all the way into the fueltank compared to the rest of bikes. The only bit going till the fuel tank is the alternator siting on the engine on the new oilheads. The rest of the mass is about the height of my knees standing aside the bike.

Also the fact that the boxer engine's weight is distributed longditudally left-right on the moving direction of the bike, meaning if the bike goes into lean, one cylinder goes up, the other goes down compensating it's mass. So it generates much better moving direction mass centralization, thus the centre of mass is not that much disturbed in the fast changing leans (all other engine concepts have the whole mass leaning on one or other side asymmetrically, with no compensation), it's the same trick those high wire artists use with the stick or with their stickly out hands not to disturb their overall mass centre to avoid the fall.


Personally I find it pity, that other makes haven't done big trailies or enduros based on the flat engine concept that has many pros compared to the rest of concepts.

For example Honda Goldwing boxer-4 and boxer-6 engine would make an excellent competitior for the GS if it's stripped down to basic lightweight robust air/oil-cooled flat twin for the (travel)enduro use. Honda already had shaft driven enduro back in the 80s the XLV 750, but like with the good old Africa Twin, Honda seems to like to discount those potential machines and not to develop them further.

The pros for the flat engines (boxers) are:
1) they can be made more compact, lightweight and simpler
2) no balancing shaft required unlike v-or inline engines that are "artificially" balanced with the separate balancing shafts (the reason why they can be made more compact, simpler and lightweight). The boxer, independent from the number of cylinders runs naturally smooth, each piston's vibration is elliminated from other piston running simultaneously on the other side, in the "mirror".
3) the lowest centre of gravity concept
4) better mass centralisation if the engine is mounted longitudally
5) the highest torque output concept, it's the concept where the pistons don't have to work against the gravity
6) all the shafts from crank to gearbox shafts run parallel making it mechanically more efficent and the opportunity to use a shaft drive naturally
7) easier to maintain, the maintenance components and procedures (valve checks, carb syncs, sparks, oil changes etc) considerably more easily accessible

The cons are:
1) mounting problems, it's wide and aerodynamically not that effective (certanly not good for fast over 200kph racing bikes that take very agressive racing leans), also the wheelbase can't be made very short for supermoto or street racing type of bikes
2) gyroscopic forces from the longitudal mounting applying in the perpendicular direction
3) noisier because no airbox, carbs, fuel tank etc bits don't cover the cylinder heads to reduce the valve noise compared to the rest of concepts

Also it's interesting to note the fact that the boxer engines are dominant in the aerospace combustion engines range. From small mini helicopters till the large airplanes. Aerospace has the most highest and strict requirements for security and reliability as we all know. So it quite says some things about the potential of boxers.

Margus

[QUOTE=Margus]Quite sure about it.

****The crank case bottom end is on the same level on all bikes anyway making the same ground clearance between the similar purpose bikes.**** I do agree the new oilhead's bmws cylinders height has been rised about 5 cm higher compared to old airheads due cornering angle reasons, especially for the R1100S and 1200S sports models and the width reduced for the same reason.

***This is not true, as old brit bikes had dry sumps, so the flywheel was running within 1/2" (1 cm) from the bottom of the sump. BMW's have a wet sump so the flywheels/crank is 3" (75mm) or more above the bottom of the sump.

Also the fact that the boxer engine's weight is distributed longditudally left-right on the moving direction of the bike, meaning if the bike goes into lean, one cylinder goes up, the other goes down compensating it's mass.

A single cylinder or twin will 'lean into' a corner which puts the weight where you want it.


The pros for the flat engines (boxers) are:
1) they can be made more compact, lightweight and simpler

So why are they more than 50 kilos heavier than any single or brit Twin ?

take a look at these pictures, run a straight edge from wheel axle to wheel axle. all of teh bmw's engine is above this, in fact the engine is so high the first silencer is fitted under it and it is this not the oil sump which is lowest point
http://www.bmbikes.co.uk/photos/spec...0adventure.jpg
http://www.bmbikes.co.uk/photos/specphotos/r1150r.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2.../70Bonnie1.jpg
http://www.btinternet.com/~haywards....ra_Classic.jpg










2

You can't compare it with the singles. Or you know any 1000 to 1150cc single? :) The biggest production single ever made should be 800cc Suzuki DR Big monster and it weights (it's 227kg wet) about 11kg less than the same year R1100GS equivalent oilhead (with the shaft and telelever, wet) multi cylinder.

The older ones are a bit heavier than the competiors with the same displacement (i.e. Buell Ulysses). But i guess it's because of the shaft and telelever features. Also the patented (probably too-) strong Behr cross-spoked wheels are heavy kit.

But as the HP2 has proven, the same 1200cc engine can make a 175kg weighting bike if there's no telelever and zillion other "extras" and if it's leaved basic as most other bikes are.

Indeed the new 1200 boxers are very much into weight competition with all other similar spec twins, and those are "weighty-techy" bmws at the same time remember?

Anyways, if a something like Yamaha was to build a boxer twin then i guess it'd mean another easy 10kg off from the german iron engine :) but currently there's no competition in the boxers field unfortunately. So for sure the farting bmw hasn't optimized the engine's physical specs to the "cutting edge" the flat concept would allow in the practice. It's the motorcycling, not the aviation for them.

Cheers, Margus

Sorry, just noticed you've added the pics to the post. So did a new reply. Altough this this might deserve a new topic - could make an interesting study!

To the thing now:

The 1150 GS Adventure is not a good comparision here, it has much higher ground clearance and all lifted higher coz it's a different purpose bike compared to the rest.

Well look at those pics, especially the R1150R wich is the same purpose bike.

Aside the boxer has a wet sump, look the engine as a whole part, the cylinders upper corner ends the dominant weight height of this speciefic bmw oilhead engine (the only thing siting above this is the alternator). And this limit is about exacly few inches below the alloy wheel's upper edge while on the others cylinder head, carb and valve assembly goes a way above this, all the way into the fuel tank level, far above the tyre. Also the Roadster picture is probably made in the studio on the centrestand and later removed graphically.

But again, it doesn't show much to compare a bike made in the year 2000 with a bike made in the year 1980, and also ground clearances are unknown on these bikes. A way too different bikes in the weight and performance.

Thus...

I did a simple draw to compare the weight distribution on the vertical direction between the two different engine concept but very similar purpose bikes photographed in the same conditions, i compared two famous competing naked bikes official studio pictures, the Honda CB 900 F and R 1150 R that makes a fair comparision from our perspective:

http://homepage.mac.com/nemos/.Pictu...gu/comparo.jpg

As sayed before, by looking from the side down-to-up the dominant amount of weight ends about on the cylinder's upper edge on the boxer seen here. Now take a look on the CB's upper engine weight ending line marked blue on the both bikes. Red line is a connecting line of the wheel centres.

It explains a lot to me. Also you can easily imagine the Honda being made into V-2 or V-4, just imagine the other cylinder in the mirror with the current one - nothing much will change in the weight distribution if the cylinder angle stays fixed (it'd make about 75 degree V engine in this case i guess).

Also take a look where the Honda Goldwing's most of engine's mass and CoG sits, it's pretty similar to the GS:
http://www.tholt.com/images/wing3.jpg
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/goldwing.jpg
http://www.micapeak.com/bmw/gs/images/gs11bloff.jpg

Look at these pics and try to fit inline- or v-engine there.

firstly your line does not run through the bmw's front axle. Even so it is as i said in my first post
"Are you sure about this, because my 1985 boxer twin has the centreline of the crankshaft above the wheel axles.. this was not true for my old triumph tiger cub, speed twin or trophy. It is also not true of current Enfields. having the majority of the crank below the axles makes a bike non top heavy, plus most of the bikes frame is above the engine.. It certainly feels top heavy...

have you much experience with these older bikes which to me are the 'norm', as i grew up with them and learned on them."

It is no use showing another bike with a wetsump saying it is as bad as the bmws for centre of gravity.. My comment was that the older bikes had a much lower centre of gravity, and the developement has been retrograde... with regard to the new 1200 bmw being lighter, yes it is lighter than its predecessors, because of the impracticalities of the quarter tonne+ previous bikes... and why do you need 1200cc for offroad use??? I included the 1150r because it is a road bike as are all the sample pictures given. anyway, I the 1200 is way out of my price range,, dont get me wrong i am not slating bmw's per se, but for offroad use they would never be my choice, unless teh wartime model with power driven side car.

I hate to belabor this point, but honestly, BMW's reliability is no secret to anyone in the industry....even personal friends who work in BMW dealerships.
Its just fact.



(but Margus is right about how picky BMW owners are.....but the bottom
line is....they break down)

Facts, gimme da facts...
 

This entire thread is BS :)
------------

It was typed earlier, in different ways: Know your bike......and take care of it.

Or subscribe to a tour.

Gauging the depth you wish to experience is a personal choice - sometimes led by common sense.

Oh gosh , it's not April the first already is it ?

Not a myth: It's true
 

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...mw-r100gs-7766

ChrisB

My unoffical, unscientific poll.
 

Oh this is just tooooo much fun to leave alone!
I have had about 50 overland travelers stay with me over the last 6 years (by my address book) of which my guess is about 1/3 rode boxers. None of these boxers where made after 2004 so far. ALMOST all the boxers with Paralever (I can remember 1 that had lapped Aussie and NZ at that point with no problems) had significant mechanical problems, usually gearbox and/or driveshaft and/or charging system. One traveler even sent his PD back to the States and bought a F650 here in NZ to carry on his trip. One 2000 G/S had gearbox failures at 12,000 and 22,000km while in NZ. MOST of the rest of the bikes (mostly singles F650, XT600, XR650 etc with some AT and TransAlp Honda twins) had had no mechanical problems so far. Almost everyone had had suspension problems, with or without aftermarket parts. I have been told that a few years ago BMW had changed the contractor that made their gearboxes (how true that is I have no idea) and that the bikes are much more reliable now. I'm not endorsing or otherwise any brand. I own three BMWs! But until I hear the personal stories from travelers staying with me that say new BMWs are significantly better in the drive systems, I for one would not consider a boxer for a long overland trip.
Damn, I can hear the rustle of pencils crossing me off a hundred Christmas card lists!

Kind regards

Nigel in asbestos flame-proof suit in NZ

Gearboxes have been always from the (in)famous maker "Getrag", right?

R100GSes and early 95-96 R1100GSes had this noise-supressing bearing type that made some constant failure around 60Ks or so(?) On the first '94 1100 model they used the non-supressing that was much more reliable bearing, but the picky bmw users started to complain about a bit too much noise from the gearbox, so the Getrag put those noise supressing bearings on that doomed them. And then again swopped them back from '97 and on. It's called the M97 gearbox i think you're referring to, capable of post 300,000kms according to their spec. But the make is still the Getrag, fortunately or unfortunately.

The enlightening article i found is here: http://www.roadkill.com/~davet/moto/trans.articles.html

Maybe they have changed the contractor of final drives tho, or they should if they haven't yet (the 1200s i mean) :)

On BMW vs. the Japanese
 

["http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/bmw-tech/road-test-1989-bmw-r100gs-7766"]http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/bmw-tech/road-test-1989-bmw-r100gs-7766[/URL]
ChrisB

Margus,
According to BMW reps at the GS intro in 2004, Getrag is OUT!

We're long past that era of unreliable bikes.

A leaky BSA, Harley, whatever, etc.

BMW became known during that time as a reliable and well engineered bike. And compared to the competition, the reputation was well eraned.

Things changed over the years with all bike manufacturers eventually making reliable machines - at least the basic components.

All motors are now reliable, in general. All electrics finally became reliable. Bikes were being built for different purposes. Obvious and nitch markets were perceived. ...running outta steam here...:)

Anyway...
BMW has no lock on reliablity now, as they were able to rightfully bark loudly in past years....gone way past.
A high-end brand now inventing things that they think their market will be interested in. I really see this, at least the GS, as Land Rover style and method.

The most reliable bike(s) in the world for rtw style rides...could be a marketing opportunity...maybe.

Great campfire talk. :)

Tough Call
 

I have recently had to make this call... What Bike...?

I'm no mechanic so reliability was paramount to my choice of Bike for a RTW trip 2up. As far as I can determine, when it comes to Motorbike reliability you can't split a BWM from a Honda apart for top spot.

U can however split the difference in the size of the repair bills between them and the Honda bikes are substantially cheaper to fix. If you are however, unlike myself, technically minded and capable of doing a lot of work yourself, including diagnosing the faults and flying parts in, then obviously the BWM cost come down.

I know its a decision based on hypothetical’s, trying to quantify the unquantifiable, will it break? if so what will break etc. etc. But I'm getting an AT although I could afford to buy either, but because I'm still poor and not that capable of fixing big faults on any motorbike myself then ‘Cash is King’ wins. Couple that with the fact that not many back street mechanics on the Indian Subcontinent have Cray computers to diagnose any BMW faults and the decision is easy :biggrin3:



Anyway that my pennys worth :biggrin3:

Some more fuel to this raging fire...

I always thought that when BMW launched the "K" series this was eventually supposed to replace the boxer. And that BMW kept making the boxer, not because it was a superior design, but because the customers still wanted it. Having owned an old boxer myself, I understand the appeal, these are very satisfying bikes to ride. But I have always wondered if BMW was continuing to update an obsolete design?

And why did BMW continue to have similar electrical problems with the boxer in the late '80s and early '90s that they had in the '70s when the K series seemed to have the electrical issues sorted out? Couldn't BMW have used some of this technology on the airheads, or was BMW just too stubborn to admit that they were wrong?

I think part of the problem is that BMW doesn't have the competition that the Japanese bikes have. Loyal BMW owners will typically buy BMW regardless of what they produce. They are loyal to their brand. Harley owners are similar. People who are partial to Japanese bikes are more partial to Japanese bikes in general than they are to a particular Japanese brand. So the Japanese manufacturers are not only competing against BMW, Trimuph, KTM and others, they are competing amongst themselves. In my opinion, this is what ultimately makes the Japanese the most reliable bikes.

Nevertheless, I will probably buy another BMW someday soon. I love the way they ride, I love the way they carry heavy loads and I love the "fraternity" I automatically join when I own one. The boxer engine is still very satisfying to ride and the center of gravity feels well planted. Yet after just having completed a trip covering 30,000 miles through 27 countries on a 17 year old Honda Transalp and having very few problems, my next trip will be on a Japanese bike. Perhaps on the same trusty Transalp. I just don't trust my mechanical abilities enough...

Just to get serious and calm things down a bit here...







My bike's better than your bike!






Sigh!

[QUOTE=davidmc]Some more fuel to this raging fire...

They can really muck things up and then try to tell people they MEANT to do it that way :lol2:

Patrick:scooter:

a truly shared project but even that
was very limited as Kawi built the motor and Suzuki built the chassis.

Back to the original question of are the BMW's reliable bikes?

I cannot comment on the new Beemer's, not my kind of bike at all.

But my 1982 LS 650 Boxer has done over 300 thousand kilometers with nary a problem.
It's been down more dirt roads and trails than most dirt bikes.
Two starter motors. A new tank after the first one rusted out. Fitted stainless steel exhausts when the orginals rusted out. Apart from consumables such as tires, batteries and bearings I have not replaced anything.
Still using original handgrips and footpeg rubbers. Still using the original rings and pistons. Not blowing smoke either.
Never had any major engine work.
I have worn out the hub in the front wheel from too many corrugations. Going to get a steel sleeve fitted there.
Still using the orginal rear suspension and the original springs in the front forks. Had the seat recovered.
The steering head bearings started to wear about a year ago, have not replaced them yet.
What more can I say?
Never had an electrical problem.
All I do is change the oils, check the tapperts, change the spark plugs, clean the air filter.
I have ridden it every day, varying distances for the last 8 years.
Re-sprayed it metallic charcoal out of a spray can two years ago.

Other bikes: Kawasaki LTD 750, 82 model...got 200 thou kms out of that.
NX 650 Honda, 88 model, only got 80,000 out of that.
XL 500 Honda, 82 model...only got 30,000 each out of two of them.
I just bought a 95 NX 650 to use for off road touring, I will be happy if I get 80,000 out of that one.
Some people here at HU have written that single cylinder engines will last past a 100 thou kms without any serious problems. Strangely enough guys on NX 650 and KLR 650 forums are all in agreement that at about the 80,000 to 100,000 kilometer mark you're going to need an engine rebuild.
And that's if you've really been fanatical about changing the synthetic oil on a regular basis.
Which is exactly what most long time bike mechs will tell you also.
When a workshop manager for Honda tells you he is surprised your NX 650 got to 80,000 kms you have to assume he knows what he is talking about.
My 1982 XL 250 Honda got to 75,000 kms...with no major engine work, that was a surprise to everyone.

I have said elsewhere, in my opinion bikes suffer more from over maintenance than neglect. it is better to just feed and water it regularly than operate on it frequently. Personally I change the plugs once, as a maintenance item, after a new set has run for 500-1000 miles, pack them well and keep as a known good set. then run the replacements until they start to fail.

all end up either selling or rebuilding right around 40 to 50K miles. Just the way it is. BMW is no exception here.

Seems like an argument for arguments sake...
 

Following the thread and only a little bit interested that we are all wasting time on this one. It is interesting enough I guess because I am responding... It is a no win. I bought and am riding a 2006 1200gs adv including an R1150gs adv as well as a KTM before this one... I went through all the pros and cons - have ridden all types of bikes for dirt, road racing, vintage... you name it. They all have their merits. The reasons I chose this bike are good and varied but the important thing is I like getting on it every day and that makes all the difference.

Each bike has its positives and negatives.

I would like to say also that no matter which bike you get these days BMW notwithstanding - all are virtually impossible to work on without a computer or a wide array of gadgets. Some more than others. I am a traditionalist at heart but am warming up to the fact that my new bike does a ton of things that make life a little easier. A KLR will be a lot easier to work on - a 2 stroke 125 from Vietnam simple to rebuild on the road... but again - if that is your thing - it is yours. My bike will do a lot more than those bikes in other areas.

I saw a report of a guy riding an R1 to Patagonia... insane for sure but more power to him. I can't judge that call except to say I wouldn't do it. I hate big Harley cruisers and it seems more and more guys who ride them but it is there thing. I have also met some incredible guys who have helped me so much on the road - riding those big hogs.

BMW - owners??? tough one for me as I cringe when I have to go to the shop and slide into the glass bay and be met with my capaccino - it really makes me sick to think they look at a bike shop that way. I want wood floors - tons of gear - decent shop guys who know what they are doing and have got their hands dirty. The price I have to pay for my Beamer. Now I have to deal with... "hey are you Ewan McGregor" (almost worth getting a different bike for...)

So quit the drivel and go out and ride and remember that is the reason you are doing it - you guys are all spending too much time arguing over a lost argument.

Which makes me a bit of a hypocrite - right?

All the best guys:thumbup1:

.:innocent: Easy. "No Win"? No, for you, its "No lose". Sign here sir.

Blogs have a way catching you out... much like a bog I think
 

Hey - I agree on all that was said. My Blog etiquette needs some work.

How about this to start. I too am in the ad business and have been creating and writing ad creative for many years. I know the sell - and, I know that BMW does a good job of it. Of course you know this but the ad coverage in North America for BMW motorcycles is incredibly small. I suspect that they lack far behind even KTM from a budget stand-point. CPRCPV and such are easily minimal from what I see and know about it. Compared to the others of course.

There are very good reasons why BMW's have always been a good (see - not the best... that is subjective) choice for RTW travelling. For many years. Myth's are born out of reality and any true success with brand must be achieved with deliverable results first and foremost. Otherwise a brand will not survive as long as BMW has. Much why people love the KLR and it is an awesome bike - just not the one I wanted.

Either way it is not relevant as it still all comes down to personal choice in the end.

I have only one bike but have owned the others. I have waited 3 years to save up to buy this one and do all of the work I can on it myself.... All I can of course might not be that much. You also know that any motorcycle can cost you tons of money if you want. If you want it the way you want it. I too can get a box to program my bike - that has been available for years. You don't need any special tools to work on the BMW as I can take the heads off and do the valves in a few minutes - which is a slight bit easier than the V-Strom as you know. Everything else you can do on a KLR you can do on the BMW (except for well... changing the spokes out cause they have those cool rims that you can take the spokes out without taking the tire off...) - and, I am sure we all aren't riding around on an old Norton saying how can you ride that bike with disc brakes either - so it is all relative.

I didn't mean any offense at all with the drivel comment so sorry about that.

I met a guy last spring riding an old 800 Suzuki with a mish-mash of parts and brazing on it... a sorry site for sure. He also had put over a number of years riding everywhere from death valley to Alaska and when I looked at that bike I felt proud that the thing had done it and I met the guy who kept it going for all that time.

So - the guy who rode that 50cc yamaha scooter from Alaska to Ushuaia... I salute you.:thumbup1:

"But my 1982 LS 650 Boxer has done over 300 thousand kilometers with nary a problem.
It's been down more dirt roads and trails than most dirt bikes."

Ahh, the R65, a man after my own heart!
I use an R65 as my travel bike (the monoshock, possibly even more reliable???), having left Australia with 180,000 km on the clock already and putting another 50,000 km on it through south/central Asia and Europe. The thing didn't miss a beat, and although it's a pig on ice and mud (which bike isn't?) 95% of the trip was on tarmac, making it a good overland travel bike in my opinion.
Not many people would challenge the reliability of the flat twin engine, but the airhead GS's were plagued mostly by gearbox and driveshaft problems, which are not so evident in road-going models. Mine had gearbox bearings changed as a precaution at 120,000 and i'm trying to decide if i should do them again before going to Africa in January.
sean

This hoax worked for a long time. The early reality perpetuated the myth. But myths are soon debunked by those willing to try new things....and by youth
who could give a Rat's Ass about tradition, reputation and race.

The channels for sharing tech were
never really opened between the two companies.

I think one thing that has affected virtually all manufacturers is that they have in response to marketing made uneven progress in extending the planned maintenance intervals. Unfortunately from a users point of view it has been not altogether an unqualified success, as often the embuggerment factor remains the same. eg instead of cheap easily replaceable points which needed roughly annual attention, we have engine management systems...true the help squeeze a small % increase in power, but when they do fail replacement costs exceed the cost of a set of barrels pistons. Worse they tend to suffer from sudden and catastrophic failure wheras points tend to deteriate slowly, giving warning. any way as replacement is cheap and simple ( cost less than a tank of fuel) was not really a big issue. With the advent of synthetic oil instead of keeping its advantages of 2-3 times longer life, they redesigned the bikes putting the gears in the same chamber as the engine and a wet sump. gears chew up engine oil, and engines dirty gear oil, but there was sufficient lubrication to accept this for similar times an engine could run with Dino oil. Thus sacrificing all the advantage . Another problem with wet sumps for bikes is it raises the engine in the frame by 3-4inches ( 75-100mm).
sio whats the use of an ignition system that ought to run for 10 years if the plugs need changing every year? Another thing has changed, originally bikes were desinged as cheap transpoert for the masses, part of that cheapness was running costs. hence older bikes were nearly always owner maintained and owner maintainable. also they tended to do high (against cars of the time ) mpg. another factor that was more important in europe than USA.
largely now (in the richer countries) bikes are 'white goods' sold as toys to the rich, rather than bread and buttertransport.

I agree 100% and I fear the world is not a better place for hi tech play bikes that have to be traded in every 3 years to avoid obsolescence and unreliability .

Sorry, but the Japanese had unit engines (gear box and motor share oil) starting in the 1950's,

] No worries, no offense taken. Happy to hear your point of view.

Haha, I’ve eaten all my popcorn and laughing my ass off reading this stuff:-)

Now I will pack up my trusty old beemer and go away for a few days, look forward to read the rest of your poetry when I get back!

See you off the road if you’re not to busy writing…..

Since when did BMW start making snow mobiles?:smartass:

Have a great winter!

(or maybe go down to Spain....don't forget the Lutefish!

:scooter:

mollydog wrote
" I dunno, 26,000 miles service interval is not exactly "uneven". Honda are close to this too with Kaw and
Suz only getting to around 15K miles. Still, not bad IMO, and if you really look at it, in many cases the maintenance is nearly nil."

Where are you buying your tyres and chains from???

also just because i currently ride an old bmw does not mean I actually like them :) My love of bikes are old Brit bikes, but you have to accept the whole ethos with them... so that is just a question of personal preference. If I could choose any bike on the planet, it would be a 1970 Triumph trophy with Thunderbird cams and pistons... But a good one of those is three times the cost of my 1985 BMW :( Someday I may just buy an enfield :)

Go try and buy one of those today. :cursing: And...I sold it cheap. This in
about 1972. Needed money, wasn't riding it. Who can predict the future?

mollydog wrote "Manufacturers really had no choice in this. Both EPA regs
and Euro lll and lV dicated cleaner burning motors. Fact of life and we're all better for it. FACT: a set of barrells and pistons and for MY bike would run into the Thousands, an ECM is about $300 and they rarely fail."
The new Enfield which exceeds the new requirements does not need an engine management system, true they used electronic ignition, but replacement units are £26.50 . Maybe the technology will spread to other manufacturers soon :) , truth is FI is a Marketing requirement, primarily and only really needed when high horsepower is required from modern low quality fuels. The Enfield does 80mpg, so engine efficiency is good.
Secondly a pair of new nicasil barrels and pistons (for my 800cc bmw)run to £320 plus taxes and postage, for an enfield single it is about £220. Again nicasil ( many parts originate in the same factory ) These barrels typically do in excess of 200k Miles. If I had to pay thousands for barrels it would be more than i would pay for agood replacement bike. IE make the bike unmainatinable and irrepairable. This is precisely my point about ownership costs.
I am well aware that an unstable bike will change direction quicker, it is why highly manoeverable fighter aircraft have to be flown by computer, they are too unstable to be flown by man. Is this what you want to ride? When you are tired and hit an unseen obstruction, a bike that is naturally stable is safer and more relaxing to ride. It is one of my three big gripes with the BMW, Too high (both seat and Centre of Gravity), Too heavy and lastly, they put the gear change on the wrong side :)

Having said that the ER500 looks like good value for money :) for most probably a better bike than an Enfield and a tad cheaper new (when discounted) I am surprised they not more popular, but I have never had to live with one.

BMW Bikes
 

I looked into BMW in some depth recently. There was a R1150R Rockster on discount here in Riyadh at a really good price at a local dealer. This is what I found (based on searches of reputable BMW riders forums so far):

BMW appear to be less than forthcoming in respect of design faults, flaws, poor manufacturing runs etc. They basically keep quiet and fix stuff under warranty rather than re-call where possible. This makes it difficult to establish which models and years may have problems. I suppose this is financial sense in some way but can hardly be good for BMW's image in the long term. Most people pay a premium for the model based on an image of BMW reliability and quality. If you buy out of warranty and the engine or transmission grenades then tough luck, sonny.

Recent issues appear to involve clutch and gearbox splines, drive shaft bearings and leaking drive seals on the 1150 and 1200 models. There have been a small but not insignificant number of failures which require partial or complete repair/replacement of the drive shaft assembly, rear hub or clutch/gearbox.

Many owners report thousands of miles of trouble free motoring. A small number report weeping bearings, trashed splines or failed driveshafts, often leading them stranded with major repairs required. Some have had multiple replacements under warranty. There has been no acknowledgement of any problem from BMW in this regard. BMW also uniquely seem to ignore rider feedback and persist in doing their own thing, no matter how often it is critcised.

Many BMW owners (including those who have had bearing and transmission problems) will defend their choice of bike regardless. They will argue that the issues are known, irregular and that preventative maintenance will prevent catastrophic failures (such as pulling the back end and gearbox to inspect the output shaft and clutch splines at 20K ??)

Me? I chose not to buy one. Too much of a 'smell' around the whole subject. If BMW had been more forthcoming and there was some definitive guidance on the whole subject then I would have considered it. I vote with my wallet in respect of perceived unethical corporate attitudes.

I also think the GS bikes are comfortable but very large and heavy and virtually useless in heavy going.

Just my twopence worth..

Just had a good read through this thread - all highly amusing. I have to say that I love these bikes, and although I would never buy an R1100-1200GS to travel where there might be quite a bit of off-road because of the weight and small front wheel, I would consider one for gravel roads with the odd pothole.

Going back to the point of this thread, for me the reputation of the big GSs is largely inflated, if not unfounded as such. There have been some great RTWs on GSs by some of the Heros that have become household names to most of us here (admitedly mostly on airheads). My problem comes in that here in England the bike press routinely come out with the line that the GSs are the only bikes that CAN go RTW. Most of this is since Charley and Ewan went the Wrong Way Round. Before this, the category of bikes now known as 'Adventure Tourers' (first appeared on the side of Honda Transalps) were thought of as irrelevant by the English bike magazines, since they were obviously too slow to be sports bikes and two heavy and fragile to be off-roaders. The R1100GS was well recieved as a road bike, but not as a potential backwater tourer.

Part of the problem here is that rough land touring by bike has been a bit of a fringe activity in the UK. This is mirrored by the fact that (since the demise of the short lived 'Motorcycle Voyager') we have no tourer-specific magazines like Tourenfahrer. More and more magazines are running articles on 'adventure touring', but it's easy enough to see that in most cases the people writing have very little knowledge on what this sort of thing is all about.

The long and the short of it is if the big GSs suit your style of riding and touring (as for Margus) then no other bike is as good. If you need something lighter and more offroad oriented look elsewhere. It was obvious from Ewan and Charley's escapades in Mongolia that they had chosen the wrong bikes (it was not even as if they needed the extra luggage capacity with four wheeled back up). Regardless of reliability issues, choice of the right horse (bike) for the right course (part of the world/route) is an important part of making the trip work. But where there is a will there is a way (or greedy relations....). I just wish people who know nothing of the subject would stop telling me that an R1150GS is the only bike that will make it up a gravel track. I know they are wrong.

Stig

Wow, glad to see this thread re-born!

Excellent sumation of this contentious issue. BTW, BMW have been denying problems since the early 80's. Great analysis! On the money!

If you like BMW's, buy one and go. Bring Money, parts and tools! :helpsmilie: Fact is, any bike will do.

Just my tuppence worth from my GS experience here in South America.

I wouldn´t say the GS 1150 is useless in the rough stuff. Yep its a bloody heavy bike, is a right pain to get parts for but so far mine has been very reliable (touch wood!). It now has 75k miles on it, the previous owners having done a 2 year RTW (2 up) on it.

I´ve been travelling for about 4 months here now and so far tires choice has been limited to Pirelli MT60s. I got an oil filter in Mendoza for 90 pesos while one for my girlfriends KLR650 cost 15pesos. Slight rip off I feel.

Both fork seals blew on rough road in Chile and I got a guy to repair them. He didn´t bleed them and they blew again a few days later. I did them myself and they´ve been fine for the last couple of months.

As for high altitude and crap fuel, my GS hasn´t even noticed, and no, I don´t have one of those expensive chip things in it.

I met a couple of other GS riders recently, one with a GS1200 and another with a GS850, and both have had problems with failed shaft drive bearings. One guy had to wait about a month before he got a replacement shipped from the UK. I haven´t noticed any oil puddles under the shaft yet but its certianly a worry.

As for taking it off road, apart from Routa 40´s, Carreterra Austral etc, I´ve done Bolivia from San Pedro de Atacama to Uyuni where there are large stretches of deep gravel and sand without any roads. That was mostly 1st gear stuff with both feet on the ground but it didn´t go down once. Recently I crossed lava fields on the closed road from Riobamba to Baños in Ecuador which was the hardest things I´ve done on it yet. Guided by 3 (yes 3) locals on a 200cc traily bike, we managed to just get the GS through several very narrow and steep, loose sections where I thought it really was going to disappear over the edge. It was bloody hard work and I would have loved a smaller bike there! However it did get though, but not without the assistance of the locals and it certainly couldn´t have been done on my own. Those lads got a few well earned beers on me that night! I also got the KLR through the same stuff with a little more ease but still needed some assistance.

Anyway, if I was going to do this trip again and knowing what I know now, I reckon I´d definitely take a smaller bike, maybe a DR650 or something. I also get a little tired of being asked ´how much is it worth´all the time here too but given these things look like spaceships compared to what the locals ride, its no wonder.

Great report Mike and kudos to you and your girl on making it through the tough stuff.

This is only one more point on the graph of course, but I recently completed a 10,000 mile trip from London to Nepal on a R1200GS without problems. I thought it was an astonishingly capable bike. Very comfortable on the tarmac, and frankly amazing on gravel. No mechanical problems.

It's very expensive but that's really the only downside in my limited experience.

steve

Vstrom weight
 

Mollydog,

I am all for everyone finding their bike - their own bike for them and there are many different options of course... And, you always speak so highly of your Suzuki and other bikes for certain but seem to constantly crap on BMW - I know I know you've had and ridden a few and I know the reasons as I follow these threads. Your choice of course.

You constantly mention the weight of the GS's and how heavy they are and in this thread you mentioned the 1000 Vstrom was 75lbs less than the 1150... I think that is a little off but... the 1200 lists out as 25 pounds lighter than the current Suzuki Vstrom 1000. In fact it looks like the 1200 ADv model is actually only 11lbs heavier for the extra tank and gear and capabilities.

Am I missing something? Or, did I get it wrong?

Sincerly :mchappy:

Dean

When someone has made the choice to drop $17,000 usd on a motorcycle it is rare you will ever hear them berate their pride and joy.

no bad bike
 

Hi guys , I am abit surprised by the attitude on this kind of thread. I owned many bikes some better than the other but my point is if you ride on two wheels you are on the right bike. I used this site to pick my last bike and even if I heard ton of bad think about BMW instead of Vstroom or other, I picked the 1200GS , I can't say anything about the bike except that the bike perform very well and is very confortable with passenger and luggages, the breaking is perfect too. I owned bike which famous for engine problem (old Ducati /triumph..)
I feel sometime that the ego of some riders is talking a bit too much ( anti this /pro that,bla bla bla) , lets try to give real feedback and instructive comments. Arround the world I met guys riding 125 ,scooter and other zundap , its all the same for me I wave and smile at all ,without judging their mount.
And I don't write this because I own a BMW ,I aslo have a XR650R,KTM450SXF,Triumph bonnevil in my garage at this time
Hendi

I enjoy these types of threads when they're done with the right attitude.
If the bike(s) I own have problems, I want to learn about it/them.
Just the facts ma'am, please. Don't hide anything from me....

It's normal human nature for somebody to defend a bike they own, especially one they've recently purchased. Bike, oil, swimming pool, roof, clothing, etc...all the same.

Some people are brand 'branded', meaning they are very into that marque, enjoying it and living with whatever faults it may have. Many people are into this and whatever makes you feel good...is good. It's hard for some to not promote their chosen dope to others, as if it's the solo truth, not just a personal addiction for fun. Understanding the difference...is the difference. I hope this makes sense...

It's all good. Blind is foolish.

I agree Lone Rider , if you love a certain bike and are aware of it's shortcomings and are prepared to compensate for that ,then you will be a happy camper [or biker !] .

This forum is great place to share knowledge and learn from the experience of others .

Keeping an open and objective mind is crucial .

All machines will break down sooner or later , what you are prepared to accept in terms of reliabilty and what you are prepared to pay for your bike is your decision .

Vive la difference !

Comparing bikes is what it is about. It's what the original poster asked about.
Sorry Hendi, but as a moto journo... well...simply put....comparing bikes is WHAT WE DO.

This thread has gotten so long now that you need a couple of sittings to read it through.
I would now like to also throw my stone into the bush and just say this; Maybe the reason why there is so many complaints about BMW bikes is the fact that BMW sell almost as many motorcycles as all the Japanese manufacturers put together. This will of coarse mean more BMW's breaking down than any other bike but for every bike mile traveled do BMW's really brake down more often than other makes? This I guess is a question that will never really be answered.
BMW's are great bikes and they are really reliable, they look good and perform well and are comfortable and safe to ride and most importantly they are good value for money.
Other things that also make a company great is the after sales service provided and in this regard nobody touches BMW when you consider they are selling every part for every single model made since 1970, they have dealers in almost every main centre around the world (Western that is) and even in some smaller centres. They are the only manufacturer I know of that offer riding courses and especially an off road riding academy, they even organise events to give their clients the opportunity to meet and ride with like minded bikers.
BMW is also the only company that provide a full line of high quality rider gear and helmets.
My first bike have been a Suzuki and although it was great at the time I would never go back there not even if I could get it for free. My second bike was a BMW. Since then I have bought 6 more all GS's and ST's all at the end of their life, all were stripped down to the last nut and bolt and washer and I know every single weak point and reason why some areas tend to fail more commonly. One thing became very clear to me that 90 percent of these common failures almost always pointed to bad maintenance and repairs with cheap aftermarket alternatives.
Would I ever buy one of the new models? probably not. Do I think they are good for RTW trips? for sure not but then does BMW build bikes for RTW tourers or for people that only dream to be Charley Boorman in Mongolia or Siberia somewhere while they fight their way through peak traffic enjoying the fact that they can skip the endless lines of tin boxes on the back of an impressive looking R1200GS Adventure.

Well I am new to this site and here is my bit my of personal experience regarding BMW's, not as an owner, but a very close up observer.
In January I went along with several others, with Nick Sanders Lisbon - Timbuktu - Lisbon, about 8500 miles round trip. The most common brand was BMW, along with a 650 Pegaso, a couple of KTM 950's, a Honda Transalp and three XT660's, a Varadero and myself on a 955i Tiger.

This is what happened (DNF = did not finish)

Pegaso 650 - no problems
Transalp - chewed a chain, shot rear shock
XT660 - chewed 2 chains, bits fell off, bent swing arm? DNF
XT660 - shot shock
XT660 - Nicks bike, sort of generally got shook to bits DNF, may have finished but Nick ended up driving back up truck
Varadero - dinged wheel rim
Tiger - dinged wheel rim, rear brake lever lost argument with rock
KTM'S - no problems

but what of the BMW's?:

GS1100 - DNF, a big off, would have wrecked any bike
GS1150 - DNF, broken engine mount
GS1200 - fuel pump failed (almost new bike), luckily in Spain, got fixed
GS1200 - DNF, brake and suspension failure both at the same time
GS1200 - God did the clutch stink but finished
GS1150 - OE luggage fell off a few times, otherwise ok
GS1200 - no problems
GS80? - ancient but no problems

Obviously all the bikes ran on the same roads, tarmac, poor tarmac, apalling tarmac, rough track, rough track with lovely hidden soft sand, and those lovely corrugations of course.
This was my first venture into Africa but won't be the last, for sure it will never be on a BMW after seeing what happened to this particular bunch. Nope, I'll stick with my Tiger, which incidentally was carrying my 12 yo son as pillion and our luggage.
The bigger bikes made heavier weather of it off road, everyone had offs whatever they were riding but the BMW's did have problems that no one else suffered from, not rideability but reliability issues.
Thats my bit, make of it what you will.

Oh forgot the Africa Twin. Survived a 70mph off, finished ok.

gs workshop here are few stats for you to ponder

2006 BMW produced just over 100,000 bikes
Honda sold 330,000 bikes in N America
In 2005 Suzuki produced over 3 million bikes and ATVs

Sales figures for the first quarter [2006 ] in Germany
V-Strom Forum - 2006 Sales Figures

BMW does NOT produce anywhere near the number of machines as the Japanese .

New Beemers fail at an alarming rate for such an expensive machine .

BMW have followed the old Harley method of instilling brand loyalty and camararderie by dressing their riders and organising social events for them .

Which is great if you want that kind of thing .

But does that make BMW a better bike ?

I've always related BMW Moto marketing to that of Land Rover - image.

Yes it's very similar isn't it .
Having had Landies since I was weaned ,the new generation of poseurs make me gag somewhat .

But ,generally speaking, HUBBers are more practical and down to earth people !

No canned spray on mud effect aerosols here .

Aha--------- but BMW owned Land Rover for a while didn't they !
That explains it .

Not for long.
Twas before and after....has been for many years.

All low volume niche product mfgrs drive from image.

You may chose to live in the stone age of BMW air heads. They are very romantic anachronisms...not much more.

I don't need to defend BMW, for god's sakes I don't even have shares in this company so I am going to stop here.
This is what I do and if you are interested call Klaus at hpn and organize a test ride of one of their handbuilt models and make up your own mind. For me there is nothing else and now one will convince me, not because of ignorance but purely because their just is nothing else. There is only two reasons why everybody is not driving one of these and that is because you don't know about them or you do not have enough money to own one of them.

Make your own mind up
 

Anyone in the UK thinking of a BMW, would benefit from having a look at this site (and others) first ::. UKGS'er.com .:: - Powered by vBulletin and do some homework before being blinded by legends:detective:
My findings point to the older bikes being more robust than the newer models:thumbup1: But then, what do I know:clap: I ride a Triumph:scooter:

Trophymick

Before I came back to motorcycling I did a lot of research. What I wanted was cheap, simple to repair and reliable. and.. with a right hand gearshift.

The bike a ended up choosing was the same as i had years ago, a 1970 triumph tr6, but these are horribly expensive. In the end I compromised on the gearchange and bought my 1985 r80rt. those monolevers do not have the shaft problems of the later paralever bikes, but do have an engine set up for low grade fuel. It has proved to be reliable transport. BUt, i still hate the gearchange. One day i will get either the old Triumph, or a modern lean burn Enfield Electra.

And how many world championships have HPN won? Or BMW for that matter?
In any Catagory? The Japanese have hundreds...in every class of racing that
exsists.

The new Bonneville is a win win bike. It even shifts pretty good. (Japanese transmissons!)

I don't do Dakars. As far as I remember this thread was started round the question of whether BMW GS's is a good choice for a round the world tour based on its reliability. I believe a bike for touring on real bad road conditions in third world countries must be chosen for more than only it's reliability. It does not matter how reliable your bike is if you keep falling down somethings are bound to brake down at some point. This is hardly the fault of the bike manufacturer but rather the rider himself. Other things to consider is fuel range, luggage carry capability and this go two ways as you need the system for the luggage but the frame and the suspension must also be able to carry the extra weight.
BMW's go very far in this regard and this is why their bike do so well with long distance travelers.
I still do not believe they are the best bikes to use for more remote traveling because of all the high tech, making field maintenance and repairs nearly impossible.
The suspension is not made for hard off road conditions and even though weight is down somewhat on newer models they are still very heavy.
These three aspects in my mind is the biggest reason for not choosing the latest BMW models and why I believe the HPN concept to be so great.
The HPN BMW is based on the low tech mechanics of the 80's and 90's models but are making use of the latest quality suspension and developments making this hardly a bike out of the "stone age".
With the HPN you have the perfect balance between serviceability, weight, fuel range, luggage carrying ability and brilliant off road capability with ultra reliability.
If you can afford, this is the bike for the true adventurer and this speaks for it self when you meat people like Werner and Claudi on their HPN models that have spent the last 7months traveling down Africa and only had flat tyres to repair as well as the odd mirror and crash bar indicating that they have had a rough enough time to prove that these bikes hold up no mater how bad the conditions get. Check out their site and many photographs.Claudi und Werner reisen durch die Welt For those that do not read German click on Bilder to take you to the image gallery.

Mwhahaha...
 

Now I've eaten all my popcorn reading this :)

I still keep coming back to have a ironic laugh at the BMW-hate club, the myth-advertisers.

It's all been intensly discussed and agreed before, in multuple threads, it's not about the makes, bikes, reliability etc, it all lives inside the people, the riders themselves. Yet some of them keep coming back to bash BMWs again and again.

What does it really mean? ...think! :eek3:




















Cheers, Margus@off to ride his trusty BMW :)
:funmeteryes:

Amen!!!!!!!!!!

Why all these lies Mollydog?



Well they won in 1981, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1999, 2000. Your statement is wrong!
I think it’s the only manufacturer that has won with three different motor-designs (airhead, oilhead and single)

Peterhansel won in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998 (Yamaha also won in 1979, 1980 with Cyril Neveu),
So again, you are totally wrong, that makes five victories for Peterhansel – not nine!


On extreme tough roads you might be right, and that’s probably why they still make 250’s. Have you forgot that BMW also makes 650 and 450?
It has nothing to do with RTW (which is what this thread is about).

Baja means nothing here in Europe (as far as I know it’s a single days race?). Anyway BMW (or HPN) has a class victory and some other good positions.


HPN has made close to 700 bikes, 90% of the bikes is still own by the original customers.
I use my bike in tight woods, but I’m not keen at rallies. We don’t ride our bikes to the pub where I live…

Why all this stuff about rallies? Going RTW is a complete different task, if you wonder how it is there is a film of three novices doing it on BMW’s. It can be done on all kinds of bikes.

Well you messed up Peterhansel, you messed up BMWs victory in the Dakar Race and you messed up the point about HPN… Guess you have answered that by yourself.

Hmm, at second thought you also messed up about the diagnostic tools for BMW in another thread which also was full of …..

Nice icons by the way.

Edit:
I forgot to mention Baja in the list above...

Nice guys, very nice. A real input to the website. "ass puppet?"

My thoughts exactly - let's try and keep it polite guys!

You may not agree with what's being said, but that doesn't give ANYONE the right to call anyone else nasty names. I'd like to think this was a good debate down at the pub - that didn't end up in the back alley or the drunk tank!

I can delete this whole thread if need be and that would be too bad.

Anyopne who wishes to clean up their act (as in edit their posts) - would be in less danger of banning. No ones there yet but some are collecting points!

Right, wrong....

For whatever reasons, and I've seen this often, experienced travelers can become antsy when stuck at home and not moving. Something eats at them. There's no easy fix, and there's frustration.

Never a moto parked in front of a shrink's shop.
Trade some knowledge and ideas here.....and then ride.....

Jeez Grant, there must be times when you feel like a kindergarden teacher- am I wrong? Sad I think- and we're all supposed to be on "the same side!'' Hope to see you in June, Hook. (With the faded orange Jesse's!).

Thanksyou Grant, as ever the voice of calm and reason. Godwin's Law still applies, Patrick, even after all these years.

Kind regards

Nigel in NZ

So, in fact, Godwin's Law does not apply here...as I was refering to the glory
days of BMW when they were world speed champions. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe since both BMW and NSU were state sponsored companies they were compelled to wear the insignia on the motorbikes?

Patrick:scooter:

Curious...
 

Since you know so lot about rallyes, how many Dakar rallyes Suzuki has won then, Patrick?

Spot on, for somebody here BMW bashing has been overused - mainly one guy bashes and multiple guys try to "defend" it. As I've sayed before it's always much easier to bash than to defend.

"Godwin has argued,[2] that overuse of the Nazi/Hitler comparison should be avoided, as it robs the valid comparisons of their impact."


For Patrick, BMW represents jews that must be wiped off the planet Earth then(?)

If the good bashing options run out because of the good argumentation job done by the "defenders" then:

"Pathetic, stubborn, teutonic, ass puppet" etc etc bashing words start to come into play. So which particular human psychological phenomenenon we're dealing with here?

From the observational point of view it is also interesting to note that: you don't hear BMW users bashing other makes, if you somehow do, then it's some 90% probability they're doing it on defending it once they've been already been attacked with an "argument". BMW users intensly bashing jap bikes by their own initiative seems to be very rare case. But vice versa it's very common in the forums. It somehow reminds me PC vs MAC computers "issue".

Jelousy, one black sheep among dominant whites, "BMW users are rich bastids, screw them!", "short-penis" ego, or any other (mythical) reasons you can think of...?

To avoid further hassle, the interpretaion(s) I leave for the rest...

Cheers, Margus aka who's just curious.

Grant,
I don't start fights....I finish them.
If you reference the post by Mr. Ali Baba where he calls me a liar then you've
found the source of my reaction. I am sorry if my response has offended the gentle readers here.

I believe if you read back through Mr. "Baba's" posts you will see a history of
unrelenting inflamatory oratory throughout his short history on HU.

Grant, regards your Pub reference..... if someone calls me a liar in a Pub, they end up with a broken nose, never knowing want hit them. Nothing ends up in the back alley or drunk tank...its over right then and there.

Cheers,
Patrick:scooter:

Not really my place to interfer, but where exacly did AliBaba called you a "liar"?

"Lies" and "liar" are completely different things, at least in the context he used to make his thoughts clear. Liar & lie: one of them is more personal intent, other is just a describing word for wrongly stated fact(s).

From this reaction, it looks to me you're taking it all VERY personally if your bashing is somehow "rejected" by valid arguments? Is BMW bashing "down to the drain" your life's motto, some sort of personal quest? I'd rather recommend doing it for fun if you really want to do it, otherwise it consumes too much of your time, and nerves...

That's my understanding as a non-english speaker, anyways. No fence was ment.

Come on guys/girls, it isn't rocket science, do your homework, choose a bike that YOU will be happy with, and ride it:thumbup1: We will ALL learn this way,no?

Trophymick

Round the World on a BMW
 

Hello fellow hubbers,
I'm looking at a few m/c this week and they are: BMWs, KLRs, KTMs & the DRs/Stroms. The ages are ranging from 97' to new and the size of cc's are 625 to 1100. Ideally, it would be wonderful to have a bike custom built(may happen one day); however, other priorities seem to get on the front burner. I have a couple of bikes I could ship overseas, but the shipping is way more than what the bikes are worth. Renting is another option available and I have corresponded with a pleasant outfit in Germany. This has been an interesting thread to read/website, with lots of opinions on different bikes. Like the last post,"Get one and Ride It".

Cheers hubbers, sincerely rio_perros:thumbup1:
Sorry Grant, I made an error here so I deleted the urls. Cheers and thanks

------------- edited by Grant to remove the email address link above-------------------
Comment:
No problem, though we do have a list of known good shippers on the Links page. ALso DON'T put email addresses in any webpage ever, as it exposes them to the spambots that just love plain text email addresses to add to their spam database.
---------------end Grant's edit-----------------

Mollydog,

Actually AliBaba has been here since 2001, longer than you. BUT length of time is irrelevant, I don't play favourites - what is said is what matters, and all those involved in this little ruckus will receive an infraction, giving them points leading to eventual banning if they keep it up.

I fully understand the desire to smack someone in the nose - but on the web we have to be a little more careful about words and their intent than if it's in person. It's MUCH harder to see the grin behind the words, or the joking manner, so it's easy to get pissed off - so it takes MORE sensitivity and restraint and tolerance than usual.

I really don't want to close this thread but will if it stays off track. I might also delete all the offensive posts.

Comments from anyone? Delete all the irrelevant and annoying posts or leave it? It's your board, it's up to you all to decide where the line is drawn.

I'm pretty tolerant, but this is on the edge for me.

Posts
 

Grant,

I'd like to think that it's a good example of well meaning individuals getting drawn off topic a bit too much. Good reminder for all, I'd keep it as is.

Cheers.

To be or not to be...
 

Grant,

Well done and thanks for starting to put an end to this. In response to your question re: keep the thread and/or delete the poor posts.

Keep the thread and the posts - as it has been useful to me in the past and at the least has been entertaining.

I agree that this has gone too far and despite a number of participants trying to defuse this again and again it seems that the consistent culprits keep coming back and insighting more trouble.

I would suggest to them that if they continue to make posts and numerous!! people repeatedly suggest that they are being biased (Thanks Margus) or information is misleading or incorrect... that they of their own volition should be man enough to think a little self reflection is in order.

That said - I too am tired of it all and want to enjoy the thread - fireworks and all but when it gets to be like this it just makes me sad for all concerned.

So - I leave it up to you Grant as I feel a guest on YOUR HUBB and will suggest to ban the offenders if you think they get out of hand and will respect that. Shame it has to come to that...

D

GJ, First, thanks for getting my gloves back to me from Rwanda- I knew you were good, but wow! Second, I don't think it's wrong to delete certain posts. If someone were to post nude pics of children here, I hope they'd be deleted and the poster banned. Name calling and crashing though threads here just seems wrong. People wonder about places like Africa, sometimes they're afraid, etc. But there is always more hostility on this website than I have found in my travels. Perhaps there are a few here who don't trully know the road- what it is to depend TOTALLY on others- strangers in fact. Most of us here have never actually met, why the anger? If an HU meeting went like this, we'd all be Kung Fu fighting at the Copper Canyon! I was recently accused of "gladhanding" on a post here- seems strange. You've ridden in Malawi- remember that? Warm smiles and welcomes, wow. If this site can maintain the good-will of the "average" African- we'll be rockin.' I'm disappointed to see a thread deteriorate to the point someone is talking about breaking noses- mine has been broken twice and it's no fun! Ride safe, Hook. (By the way, with regards to this thread, take out the trash brother!)

I was desperate to go on this trip this year but I got no reply from Nick despite various emails and lots of phone calls :(

Hopefully will manage to come in 2008 if I can get hold of the bugger!

I've got a 1200GSAdv specially for the venture, haha - hope it's still working before we set off eh?

Cas :)

Quoted by Dodger "2006 BMW produced just over 100,000 bikes
Honda sold 330,000 bikes in N America
In 2005 Suzuki produced over 3 million bikes and ATVs"

Sorry for the statement as I did not meant that it should be taken so literary, what I meant to say is that in the same class much more BMW's are sold, how much more I don't know but especially as far as the GS is concerned they sell loads more than any other make Japanese or European.

Quoted by Dodger "New Beemers fail at an alarming rate for such an expensive machine."

I am not aware of alarming rates but I am sure they might have problems from time to time like any other manufacturer.

Quoted by Dodger "BMW have followed the old Harley method of instilling brand loyalty and camaraderie by dressing their riders and organising social events for them."

Harley Davidson sells accessories for their riders to make them look good, most of these items offer no protection for the rider. BMW provide proper rider gear and have some of the best stuff on the market for example the Rally suit that is even popular with a lot of riders not riding on BMW's and especially very popular on the Dakar rally.

Quoted by Dodger "Which is great if you want that kind of thing."

I base my selection for gear on two things, price and quality with quality always first to the extent that I will rather not have it at all if I can't afford it. It just so happen that even compared to a lot of other makes I almost always come back to buy the BMW product for its quality and good design.

"But does that make BMW a better bike ?"[/QUOTE]

I have never said BMW's are better than other bike makes, I said they are good bikes as I believe there are other makes also producing good bikes and some even more capable than the GS for RTW tours.

Thanks Grant
 

Thanks for acting on this thread Grant, I am fairly new to the site but not to world travelling and I was shocked to see that fellow rider/traveller were so much into bashing and lately name calling instead of posting usefull information. I always enjoyed reading the site and advised many friends to use it in order to plan thier next or first trip. I now owned a BMW 1200gs , a KTM 450SXF, a XR650R , they are all great bikes but they all have thier own defaults,after owning over 20 bikes I can say that the best bike is either the next one or the one you sold few year ago (and forgot all problem she gave you).I think this is not the place for bashing or insulting anyone , if BMW is trying to get riders to meet and get recognized why not , I will not complain to see more regular people enjoy motorcycle as HD did with thier marketting system.Keeping the post is up to you as I have nothing bad to say about the site.

Hendi

Please don't edit/remove postings, it is not in the spirit of debate:thumbup1:
Keep it real, not personal :Beach:. Deep breath, altogether now:clap:


Trophymick

I finally read the whole thread
 

It took me awhile to read the whole thread and boil it down to the important points.

What I have interpreted from all of this is that if we all ride triumph's built in Japan while wearing german made clothes the world will be a wonderful place.

Works for me

Rick