I think many people get their panties in a wad way too easily.

Remember 'Leave it to Beaver'?
It was always more fun when Wally did something wrong. :)

gsworkshop , thanks for the reply .
I think it is important to read the whole of a post and comment on it as a whole .Dissecting the post line by line and adding your comments dilutes the message I was tyring to get across and twists the meaning .
You are leaping to conclusions and answering questions that I have never asked !
Any way for the record , I wasn't criticising BMW clothing and I believe it is very good [ but expensive ] ,my comments were to show that it is a way of instilling brand loyalty .[ Buying into the lifestyle maybe ? ]

The big BMWs are expensive bikes here in Canada and if I was looking to buy a new bike in the large capacity "Adventure tourer " bracket ,I am afraid to say that I would want a better reliability record . This is my personal opinion based on value for money and I didn't gain that opinion on a whim .
You have even alluded to the big bikes being a poor choice for RTW .

HOWEVER , like you, I would most certainly rebuild an older bike to my own specification for RTW and be confident in it's ability to get me where I want to go ,[ I have less confidence in my own ability to last the course! ]

It would be interesting to see the sales figures for the "adv touring " bikes and see which manufacturer outsells the other , maybe somebody has those figures available , certainly BMW are quick to admit that their 1200 gs is their best seller .

Grant, definitely leave the thread and the posts - it has been very interesting to see how emmotive this subject is to many people. I haven't seen the like on any other tech forum, but that could be because I don't visit them so often. As we always say, any bike will do - just get out there. I wish I were able to follow this ethic though!

I have to confess to being fed up of the BMW hype here in the UK, but I would stress that I don't think BMWs are poor bikes, just that there are many, many others that will do the job as well, and sometimes better. Perhaps my own perspective is clouded by the this hype. As Mollydog said, the motorcycle press here is only just waking up to the idea that touring by bike can mean something other than 'conquering continents in a day'. I think most of us here would question why on Earth anyone would want to do that - why not use a car, or stay at home and watch the world go by on TV. You would be as much in it as you would on a hyper-tourer.

The idea that the current GS series is the 'best' there is for an RTW because it can blast continents, but still tackle rough stuff is fine, but seems a strange concept to me given that my own preference would be [I]not[I] to cover vast distances in a day. If that's what a big GS can do, I don't need it. If that is what you want to do, then perhaps the GS is for you, regardless of reliability and build quality issues. So buy one and enjoy.

Grant, you'll have noticed (being based for a while in London) that the British bike press still cannot square the idea of touring by bike with the idea of not doing so at warp factor nine. Perhaps when they have grown up and stopped viewing motorcycles as toys, but as what they are - a form of transport - the GS worship will stop. Then I'll be putting a deposit down on a BMW, perverse person that I am!

There is such a vast range of preferences out there, and whether you want to plod on an Enfield and do 50 miles a day but get the most of the country your in, or whether you want to tick as many of those countries off as you can in a month, that's up to you. The last thing we need are motorcycle marque evangelists. Whatever you ride, enjoy it for what it is!

Respect to you all.

Stig

The data
 

So after all of this - here are a few questions.

I keep reading (the HUBB) about the bad service record of the BMW's or at least the mythically incorrect one - etc. but I have yet to see in any of these posts any reference to any real data - except for Margus pointing to the 10,000 MCN rider strong survey that put the BMW squarely at the top overall and in many cat's.

I agree that the hype makes me cringe and the cost is huge in comparison (I own a 1200gs) but I can't find any "bad" service data on the net anywhere or hard data in these posts. I also figure that I can't afford much if any of the clothing - but when I see a Paris Dakar rider on a KTM with a BMW jacket it tells me something -- and they are chump change compared to RUKKA.

So - prove me wrong - other than someones experience with a buddy who happens to be a mechanic at a single shop - or a discussion over a beer.... someone show me the data. Then we will either bust the myth or prove it - at least to my little mind. Lets determine what exactly the myth speaks about...:rolleyes2: And, I can either walk tall to the garage or slump down sullenly as I expect the thing to break at every turn...:thumbup1:

The next thing is a point to share - I admit to partaking in a BMW service day or suspension tech night (Roast beef dinner and talking bikes - is not too bad) but the interesting thing about it is - surrounded by all the glass, and polished metal and fancy lobby... (which I think is just wrong for a bike shop) when I go out to leave - all I see are a mish-mash of old pick-up trucks and hatch-backs and mostly North American cars - it struck me that the kind of people who ride BMW's (in my experience) are not the kind of people who DRIVE them... put a smile on my face. But - again that is just my little bit of BMW bike world isn't it...

Stats
 

I had a look for failure-rate statistics and as far as I can tell the manufacturers don't publish them, nor is there anything comparable to, say, the Consumer Reports surveys for autos. The Ride etc. surveys are small and self-reporting and worthless IMHO. Perhaps the figures can be found elsewhere or requested from the manufacturers, but I'm a biker, not a journalist :)

The best info I found for putting some objectivity into this argument is here for quality and here for recalls.

The first has Suzuki "among the best" with regards to quality (5 out of 5) vs "better than most" (4/5) for BMW.

The second site is for recalls and showed a lot of recalls for BMW models and few for Suzuki (none shown for the DL1000) which, of course, has many more models in it's line-up. Some recalls are ridiculous (the wrong contact number in an owners manual, for the VFR, is one example) and of course manufacturers will avoid making a recall if they think they can get away with it, but it makes interesting reading.

So, if someone asked me to say which of the DL1000 or R1200 is more reliable, and to be objective about it, I'd say the Suzuki. At the pub talking over a beer, I'd say the same. And if I had to put money down on one, I'd choose the Suzuki.

That's my 2 cents; if you like your bike whatever it is then that's great. Don't call me a liar or threaten to break my nose... ;)

James

[QUOTE=mollydog;111515]

BMW's LOOK GOOD, but don't live up to the LOOK!
They never really have.....

Margus kind of represents the tough old guard of BMW owners.

You still see some old guys like Margus,

to perpetuate the mythology that surrounds BMW.

What crap.


Really? So you've ridden one eh?

.................................................. .........
Despite Mollydogs remarks, sampled above, this is....

An excellent thread, fired by passion - this is good stuff. Threads like this are a treasure, despite the odd nasty post. Don't lose this energy because of minor irritants.

The quality end of the debate is represented by Margus, who avoids rumour, gossip and abuse, gives facts and figures, and argues with reason and logic. He is clearly not blindly loyal to any bike or manufacturer, but judges them on merit and suitability for purpose. We have benefited from his comments and how he presents them. That includes people like me who don't ride a BMW, but who certainly value the bikes that BMW produces. Who couldnt?

The shabby end is represented by Mollydog's threats to punch people and how tough he is, his "ass puppet" remarks to one who dared to disagree with him, and his argument, which seems to rely on hearsay and bias. He boasts that in a bar, he always wins. In bars which I frequent, he would end up with his sorry, battered face in the urinal. Some of his comments above give the nature of the man. It seems that if he is losing a debate, he resorts to needling others. But when he's on easy, safe ground, he's harmless, and is a very jolly read. But when required to think outside the box, he cant do it. He is unable to handle Margus's last comment about the endless BMW bashers - that it's all about the rider, not the bikes, which are simply passing consumer goods, to be changed like a pair of boots.

This is a good and energetic thread, and I hope Mollydog doesnt spoil it for others. But dont get rid of him. Unpleasant he is - troubling he is not. If you met him on the road you'd "lose" him right away. I think we are all big boys and girls and we know how to deal with the likes of him.

And it keeps him off the road!


Margus is not "old guard" - he is actually quite young. I think old Mollydog likes to provoke.

Yes indeed
 

Thanks for the comments James. I was just interested really. And, I promise not to punch you out...:thumbup1: There are as many reasons to not like a bike as to like one and human shape, size, and desires all play a part.

I didn't mean to compare any brand (Suzuki) just interested if any real data is out there. I have owned a Suzuki, Yamaha, Honda, KTM, Ducati and Montessa and a number of different bikes within that. Not to mention my BMW - and found them all to be awesome in one way or another - which I think is true of most bikes - with some notable exceptions.

I'll keep my eyes peeled for any hard data and make sure it gets up on the site... I might even ask my friend who owns a BMW, Yamaha, Ducati dealership if he could get me some... :helpsmilie: but I think that might mean BMW punches him out...

Either way I guess the most important thing is I am happy with my purchase and the only thing wrong with it so far is I don't get enough time on it.

Hope to see you out there,

PS Caminando - well said

Dean

Don't delete the post!

It proves that the moderators here like to open a can of worms (Vincent Danna, moderator, started this thread twice).

But it looks like post(s) have been deleted already. At least one post (between #79 and #80) is deleted and it looks a bit strange because #80 quotes from this post.

It might be smart to only delete the text in the post not the entire post. Deleting parts of a discussion without telling the readers is not nice!

Cou-cou d'Auvergne!
 

Nice one Hendikaf!

I agree about Mollydog's ego - this leads to bias and not clear discussion. Concentrate on Margus's posts for real feedback and instructive comments....- and then follow your own values.

Very perceptive, Alibaba!

Yes Dean - a very interesting post which offers good comment in opposition to bias and needling.

We are lucky to live in a time when we have so many fabulous bikes to choose from. I think it's fantastic when I think of the old bangers I started on. I refer to bikes of course.

But we're still stuck with people who bleat about "mine is better than yours"; such juvenile rubbish.

Beemers: an owner's perspective.
 

Well, I've read a fair amount of this thread and my eyeballs have started to dry out and shrivel, so I'd thought I'd post now, rather than wait any longer.

Firstly, I don't have stacks of facts and figures, just my own experience and that of people I've met. That has been mixed. My back ground? Well, I've been riding since I was 19, so 14 years and I've owned quite a few bikes. The GS 1150 is the most recent: bought specifically for a trip through Argentina and Chile, two-up with my girlfriend (which this site helped with enormously!!).

Prior to the GS, I had never owned a big trailie. Its turned out to be one of the best, most fun bikes I've ever owned. no problems on the trip: all 7500 miles (12,000 km approx). The bike was very heavily laden with stuff for two ( two-up and fully paccked the bike was about 500kg as measured in the customs warehouse), most of which we never used as is often the case with first time over landers. The bike did beautifully, even though I had never done off-road before it coped with the Carretera Austral, Ruta 40 etc without missing a beat. It was never going to break speed records, but it took it in its stride and performed for us.

So was it the only choice for us? Well, I've heard reliability complaints and its well known that people will complain if all goes wrong, but keep schtum if it goes well. Having said that I've met a number of people who have had plenty of miles from their bikes when others would have died. Not a friend of a friend, but face to face meetings: one owner had 180000 miles on his GS, before a log hit at 60 mph shoved the gearbox output bearing out of place. My BM mechanic sold one with 98000 miles and he has seen plenty reach very high mileages. Then again, my dad's 1150RT appears to have lost compression in one cylinder at relatively low miles, so who knows.

Its also worth remembering that a RTW trip really punishes a bike and if a lot of peple have picked BMs: you are bound to hear a lot of stories of mechanical problems: doesn't mean they're all crap. If as many Stroms, or Varaderos had been RTW, perhaps they might come off badly at times too...

Thing is, as a two up travelling couple, we were stuck for choice and an air-cooled comfortable twin shaft-drive bike with a good reputation ,the GS seemed a good choice. Other options for the load we carried? The varadero? No thanks the Africe Twin: not powerful enough for me. The V-strom: The oil cooler where it was did not inspire confidence and did not look as solid.

Would a Strom or Dero have done better? Perhaps: I have no idea. But the GS did beautifully, as far as I'm concerned.

There are very few bikes that I have frequently heard reaching high mileages: Pan European, VFR 750, CBR 1000F, CX 500, NTV 650 and an number of K-series triples and Boxer twins. The latter is the only big-two up capable trailie. I'm sure that there are XTZs, A-twins, etc that have also had big miles on them trouble-free, I just haven't heard it said time and again.

Would I use it again for such a trip? Yes, certainly
Would I use one if I was alone? No, I'd get a XR400 with a 22l tank.

My ideal RTW bike? air cooled, shaft, carb'ed but newer than an R80. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem the market is heading that way.

Bottom line: am I going to buy a bike because of other peoples opinions, if I disagree? No. I though the GS was the bike for the job and so far it has not proved me wrong.

I should've seen this before now, the previously banned Denis now back contributing to this website as he did before.

A couple of thoughts from a newbie:

1. Reference a particular query a short time ago about the moderation of this thread - - please don't remove the information; it is far better than any stuff that is written by the journos in our so called biking publications (mostly filled with advertisements and you have to wonder "who is paying the journalists to say what") - deal with the miscreants as you will but leave the thread itself for the fairly silent majority to enjoy (there are loads of people, I would wager, who are dipping into this one at regular intervals, just as I do).

2. Warthogs' last posting on here is an excellent piece of clear expression of personal views.
Most bikes that he lists as achieving high mileages (with relative lack of trouble presumably) are older models of Hondas as it happens - is that a coincidence? For my money, you can add the Honda Blackbird and the Yam 900 Diversion (shaft drive) to that short list.
I can't see the market going back to carbs, not in the so called first world countries anyway, but simpler is better is the basic premise for RTW?
Apart from shaft drive, how about the belt drive of the 800cc BMW now on the market that is coming out with a GS version in the near future (but likely to have a chain in GS guise). Yes, I have heard that belts are no good off-road (and there are those who say shaft drive is no use off-road either), but there are belts made of kevlar I understand that can deal with that issue. Finally, it all depends on what you mean by "off-road". My wife knows the term in a completely different way to me!

Apologies:
to anyone who finds this post too much off topic from the main idea of Beemers getting RTW - as many say, you can go around the world on any bike.

I'm so sorry Lone Rider. I'm going to delete my post and I hope that this means we can kiss and make up. Will you be my friend?

Please?

deleted ?
 

Alibaba,
If you click on the little blue arow in the quote you mention, you can see that the post has been deleted by the person who posted it. Not by a moderator.

As far as cans of wurms are concerned: They can be very interesting, but it does require some dicepline and courtesee. Unfortunatly not everybody poseses these qualities and that is what the moderators are for.:nono: (And they use the Personal Messages, not the tread itself.)

Enjoy the can of wurms. Personaly I think the largest part of it is a very serious and respectable discusion.

Maarten

Sorry about this but I still don’t see how I can see who has deleted the post and I still think the post (without text) should remain after it’s deleted so readers can understand that something is deleted.
IMHO it should not be possible to delete (and maybe modify) posts.

Going for a ride, have a nice day!

I do not know if it has been the hoo haa here or the slow machinations of my own brains cogs, but for some time i have held off doing some trips, thinking I would be better served with an enfield. However, my bike 1985 r80rt is a good bike on the tarmac. Off road a total pig, would rather ride my old triumphs ( any of them) on black ice. The 80's are a tad smoother than the 100's and above even if not so fuel efficient. So this summer i shall be clearing out some cobwebs.
In other words, any bike will do, especially the one you have.

The Truth. :)

[QUOTE=, any bike will do,[/QUOTE]

Some just better than others!!

Just to add that we are now planning an Africa trip and have both decided to use the 12GS again. We just fell in love with that bike. It is possible that there are better choices at least from the point of view of ease of maintenance but ultimately the thought of popping your head of of the tent in the morning and knowing you're going to love every minute of the bike ride today is too much to give up.

steve

Is there a such a thing as a perfect bike to take on an around the world bike trip? If you think there is, you're kidding yourself.

When you go on such a trip, the most important thing in choosing the bike is to take one you're comfortable with and figure out the rest(parts, fuel, etc.)

Many have gone around the world on motos, before the GS or the V-strom or the Adventure came into being.

Pick your wheels and ride...

I have read some of the e-mails.

Lot of opinions. Some from experience, which is valuable.

I had XT, Transalp, now Vstrom1000.
All very different bikes IMHO. All great bikes to have.

I have seen people travelling the world with 15 year old bikes (Transalp, BMW, Ariel, Indian can you believe that?).

I know people who spend more time talkin than actually riding.... With made up and fabricated ideas, what do you call that?

Finaly, yes Vstrom is such a joke that keeps me smiling everytime I hit red start button since 2003.

It has been quite reliable for me. I had friends crashing same place with me on a dirt road covered with mud. They had their bikes towed. (You wanna guess which bike was that?) I just put it up and rode home.... Talk about reliability.

Have fun with your bike and let us know what was so great about it....
And please do not take the MC mag journalists to seriously.

Regards

any consensus?
 

Wow. This thread was tough to get through. I can't decide what to get now more than ever. I am not a seasoned RTW pro but I have done my share of riding. I have owned Suzuki's, BMW's and Kawasaki's. I admit the allure of these new beautiful bikes is tough to get around and I am trying to decide between the KTM 990 Adventure and the BMW 1200 GS. any opinions?

Wow
 

Hi Ross,
As you say Wow! if you want some reasoned argument about your question you will be best served by starting another thread with that title IMO!

This one has run "for ever" just for the original Beemer question - I feel as if I have been reading it that long anyway :rolleyes2:

Cheers,

Dave

160 000 km on my r11gs - at least 1/3 of this on dirt, filth corrugations and whatever else central australia has to offer, plus plenty of long days in the saddle at 170 - 190 km/h. lots of two up.

only one hassle to report: final drive bearing gave out at about 150 000. recent gearbox overhaul revealed nothing untoward.

yep, it's heavy, but the centre of gravity is low too. you just have to ride well - they don't feel as big as they look.

i must agree that it's a good idea to stick to giving opinions about the bikes one knows about. V-srtrom or CapoNord? i wouldn't have a clue, and never will to judge by the way the old BM does its job.

i agree
 

:thumbup1:bmw 1150gs is the best all rounder :scooter:which says it all

how you rid not what you ride
 

If you can't pick it up you should not buy it.
I have done 40000 miles on my 05 1200 GS only had brake pads and tyers and 50 miles to the gallon, also met a bloke who knocked his all to pieces in 7000 miles and got 40 to the gallon. Seams to me it's all more about the riders than the bikes!!
Tom osment

So you've never taken your bike in to the dealer for service, is that it? :cool4:

Yes, rider is very important but even David Knight would struggle on a GS.

So do I as I am riding to india next year, figured if I could do 12000 miles through Africa befor mobiles and lap tops should be a piece of cake to ride inda. Glad you were impresed with the gs's reliability. we gs riders don't use the word cake hole Patrick, you got to laugh. Sorry mate I have had no probs with my 1200.
Regards TOM

I think this thread is making two blatant mistakes in generalizations...

1. Grouping BMW's and considering them similar...they is a tremendous amount of diversity/differences in their product line, not just across models but over time on the same model.


2. The perfect bike for an RTW exists and arguing on a forum will discover it...the Holy Grail might be easier to find. In choosing a bike for an RTW trip, the rider's route, riding and mechanical skill level, etc. are big factors in giving him flexibility in bike choice.

BUT I do agree with a prior poster that we should not propagate the marketing, forum hearsay, etc. of bikes we've never ridden or owned for a significant period.


DISCLAIMER:
I own and rode a 93K75s with 50k miles before the trip, around the world...putting 33k miles on it in the process in 2007.

That bike crossed the Sahara twice(Western Route and via Niger, Algeria), the Stans, Mongolia, and to Vlad(via the Zilov gap)....in one singular trip. It is not considered by many to be worthy of off-road worth but it handled its business with no real issues.
So I am partial to defending the BMW brand on that specific model. BUT since nobody considers it an Enduro, I won't have much defending to do;)