New Africa Twin 2015
 

Have I missed the new Honda Afica Twin in 2015 thread? Lots of internet rumours; patents filed etc. Anybody here know more details? Really a sub 200 kg , 1000cc "dirt oriented" bike? What's the story?

I've heard the rumors too ... and about the patents as well. If anything is really up we will probably know in November at the EICMA show in Milan.

If Honda has plans and are ready ... you may see some hint there. Maybe a prototype? or "concept" idea? Seems to be THE SHOW where the OEM's reveal new ideas for new bikes.

The Adventure bike market is changing so fast ... hard to predict. But I'm sure Honda have seen the success of both BMW and KTM have had in this segment and realize they too could easily compete by reviving an old idea.

But it will have to be very good ... not those crap 700's and VFR based pigs they've put out the last couple years. I think young Japanese retro Hipsters that cheated their way through engineering school must be running things at Honda now. :helpsmilie:
Shame. I hope they make a comeback ... but lately I see some bad product choices.

I can't go into detail, but I know for a fact that Honda is making a new Africa Twin. Prototypes have been built, but I don't know when mass production will start.
The designers at Honda know what adventure riders want, but there is no telling if that is what will eventually come off the production line. Hopefully corporate bigwigs don't demand they make just another so-called "adventure" bike with not much different from the European bikes already out there.

This is great news Chris ... I've seen "spy shots" somewhere, I believe in the UK tabloid MC press? Not always credible. But lets hope for the best. If Honda have a running prototype then we could see the new bike at the Milan show. Fingers crossed. :mchappy:

My bet is Honda will go UP Scale, al la R1200GS-L ($24,000 usd), KTM 1190
Adventure ($18,000 usd), Aprilia Capo Nord, Suzuki V-Strom, Yamaha 1200
Tenere', Guzzi Stelvio, Ducati Multistrada. Up scale is where the big profits are.

To compete Honda may have to go with a bigger more powerful motor to match the competition. Ducati Multi makes 135 HP, KTM ADV 123 HP, GS 111 HP, others between 87 and 110 HP. Big motor means big weight. The Wet weight of the fully equipped GS is 582 lbs. (264 kgs.), KTM 558 lbs. (253 kgs.).

Will Honda start over with an All New V twin? (RC51?) or will they go with the big VFR1200 motor? At 141 HP/80 ft. lbs., it's got the power but a heavy lump. I'll bet the V-Four gets the nod as Honda's R&D is already done. R&D on an ALL new motor is huge expense.

Honda's DCT (auto clutch) VFR1200 weighs 644 lbs. (292 kgs.) wet. I'd guess in ADV mode Honda's new Africa Twin would weigh in higher still. YIKES! :nono:

For my money, Honda should build a very light weight middle weight ADV Africa Twin. Use a very light 500cc to 700cc parallel twin. Keep it sparse and more like a Dakar racer than a Gold Wing with knobbies.
Will they do it? Nope. Honda have been reliably misreading the market consistently for the last ten years. The best bike they've made recently ... and it's a BIG HIT ... is the little Made In Thailand CRF250L. A top seller.
But Honda continue to put huge money into losers like the Rune, Fury and other abominations.

Talk on adv forum is a twin cylinder, but not a v-twin. And Honda Australia knows NOTHING!



Got a "nice" e-mail from them after forwarding a youtube interview link to them where Honda UK representative said: "its coming and people will not be disappointed"

From what I heard, I'm pretty sure it will be 1000 cc.

I'd be betting some kind of NC700 variant maybe bored and stroked.
Fuel economy being pretty important to long distance folk.
Yamaha may have something to compete with this as well...

yea, good point. Rumors surrounding the Honda suggest a P-twin so the NC could be platform of choice. Honda have a 750 version of the NC700 ... gets something like 60 MPG. But only makes 54 HP.
It they bump out to 1000cc ... ? Who knows? My guess is it will weigh close to the Yamaha Super Tenere' 1200 ... just under 700 lbs. (around 300 kgs.)

But Yamaha seem to be way ahead of Honda in the small, light weight motor dept. lately, with their TWO stellar new engines ... one is the 800cc Triple in the FZ-09, the other the 700cc P-twin in the FZ-07. Both weigh in WET at right round 400 lbs. (181 kgs. :eek3: ) and there are already rumors of Yam using the 700cc P-Twin in a smaller, lighter Mini-Super Tenere'.

The FZ-09 triple puts out 107 HP/62 ft. lbs. (claimed) The FZ-07 puts out 66 HP (dyno tested)/45 ft. lbs.

In USD the FZ-09 is just $8000, the FZ-07 $7000. These two bikes pretty much blow away ALL of the competition at every level and even though considered "low budget" entry level bikes ... they don't ride that way. Big time positive reviews world wide.

Both motors could make a decent ADV Travel bike ... if done right. But if Yamaha follow the guidelines of their SUPER over weight Tenere' 1200 ... then all for naught, IMHO. doh

I heard it will be a smaller engine, single cylinder and ultra lightweight.......
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http://i551.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps4f8e3b09.jpg

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I have never been so excited by a new bike...

However, I just know it will be a disappointment.

There is no real market for proper adventure bikes. There is a HUGE market for bloated, over weight , super expensive and over 'gadgeted' rolling sofa's with pretend knobblies. They are the big selling bikes. Honda want to make lots of money, not keep a few die-hards happy.

My guess it that it's going to be a 1200 rolling computer with a big tank, wide seat and weigh 250kg dry.. And cost more than any serious overlander could get a carnet for. Like Mollydog says, it will be like the big KTM's and BMW's. Great for posing and standing up on the pegs over a gravel driveway.


If they went head to head with the Triumph 800XC, then I'd be seriously impressed.

Honda UK representative said: "its coming and people will not be disappointed"

I suspect if it turns out to be under 200kg and only 100bhp etc the MCN journos for one will be disappointed.

I can see their "mega road test" conclusions already - "After our comprehensive multi hour motorway test we think it's not bad for a littlun but it can't really live with the market leaders. The GS still leads the pack with the new for 2015 dayglo orange colour scheme adding a touch of class that last year's range lacked. There's still only one thoroughbred choice if you're loading up and heading off for distant horizons. By contrast the A.T. looks like it was designed by a committee consisting solely of accountants. Honda say "less is more" but we think it looks more like pennypinching and trying to trade off of the legendary status of the original Africa Twin".

:rofl::rofl:

For all that we can see the advantages of smaller and lighter, Honda still have to sell them and "top trumps" is a well trodden marketing route. Maybe they'll subsequently introduce a smaller one of the back of the behemoth a la 800 /1200 Triumph but naming it could be a problem - Africa Single doesn't quite do it and they've already plundered the Alps. The "Spain and no further Twin" maybe? The Corsica Twin has a certain ring about it but it sounds more like someone you'd hire to sort out your err ... business problems. Makes me pleased I don't work in marketing. :rofl:

its coming..
 

2016 honda africa twin - IndefinitelyWild have heard the official announcement will be made 9:30am at November 4th at EICMA

Prototype:



http://actiontouring.com/pic/at1.jpg


http://actiontouring.com/pic/at2.jpg



http://actiontouring.com/pic/at3.jpg



http://actiontouring.com/pic/at4.jpg



http://actiontouring.com/pic/at5.jpg


If there will be a release it will probably look totally different but I think it's cool, like an old Super Tenere :thumbup1:

Is the mud paint job standard, or an optional extra?:online2long:

looks like I was right then!

I think it's touratech spray on mud.

From their website... :eek3:

http://bsalert.com/f-store/mud.jpg


Spray-on mud: the ultimate accessory for city 4x4 drivers | Science | The Guardian

I promise not to hijack this thread any longer, just for Ted's and my puerile merriment.:donatello: (I'm sure one or 2 anoraks are ready to hop on their haut cheval...)

A constructive comment: Looks the part, but fuel tank looks pants/too small.

No clutch lever, so dual-clutch transmission?
That would take some getting used to.
​2015 Honda Africa Twin: Finally An ADV Bike Built For Dirt

​2015 Honda Africa Twin: Finally An ADV Bike Built For Dirt bit more from Wes Siler

Not sure I agree with him on what an 'adventure bike' is.
His comments (in the comments section, not the article) imply that the bike has to be big to do any serious touring.
Things like a 650 or 690cc being little (even though plenty of people have gone round the world on 250 or smaller), XR not being an adventure bike (it sure can be if you want it to) and need to bring 'your wife and camping gear and spare fuel and water' (I leave my wife and fuel can at home and only cary a liter or 2 of water) make me wonder why kind of adventuring he does.
Hopefully, the new AT will be capable of more adventure than crossing a gravel parking lot!

From what I gather the HRC team have been involved in the testing using mules made to look like the rally bike.

Well it looks like something they could have just built overnight, to ride this ´wave´ of rumours...

BTW, has it been mentioned anywhere at all BY HONDA, that this "prototype", IF it will become a production model(?), will actually be called "Africa Twin"??

No, but I know from someone at Honda that they are making a new Africa Twin and that prototypes have been made. The promotional video puts a lot of emphasis on the Africa Twin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-gXpyjwGgg

Parallel twins just generally fail to excite me. Yes, they may work very well, could even have definite advantages for certain purposes, and I know this is mostly a matter of personal preference .............. but still: ´Africa Twin´, and with an engine, that´s not a v-twin?? You´ve got to be kidding, right??

Then again, it looked like they can still change just about everything on that “concept bike”... :rofl:

That video is brilliant.. :thumbup1:

Yep, have to agree. Honda is supreme when it comes to advertising. More examples:

The Impossible Dream

"Hands"

The Cog

And, more recently, a take on an advertising technique, the like of which I’ve never seen before: The Other Side
[Don't forget to press / toggle the 'R' key on your keyboard to see 'the other side']

The closest (motorcycle-related) advert I’ve can think of that’s ‘up there’ and comparable to Honda’s productions is, The Commercial that Made Taiwan Cry .. in just three minutes.

All bloody brilliant.

Indeed. They are suburb works of animation and writing. :thumbup1:

Captivating.

Da kwalitie off you're superb writin Ingleesh coninyous too imprez Ted.:rofl:

What do you call a scouser in a suburban semi? The burglar...:smartass:

Behave laaaaaaaa....

Me and Stan. Or is that Stan and I ???

Anyway. We were talking about winding you up on the hubb with terrible grammar and spelling since finding out it's one of your pet hates haha bier

And for me it comes so naturally. :rofl:

I don't usually give a toss about people's grasp of English grammar and vocabulary. For lots on the HUBB, like you and Stan :D (and all Americans(*) ), I appreciate it's not your first language. Being a mod I have to read everything: The good/normal stuff (99.9%) and the utter garbage (0.1%). When the garbage is also badly written and punctuated... :taz:

(* = attempt at humour... Feel free not to take offence :thumbup1: )

Sorry to divert from the grammar lesson, but . . . . .

I realise the reliability of a yet-to-appear-bike is nonsensical, but I'm reading everything about this bike with interest, not least because it's a Honda. I had a Hornet as my first bike after my test, and it was brilliant (I had it for 2 years). My current bike is great (European brand) too, but in the 4 years of owning it I do seem to have spent quite a bit of cash on the day to day running side of this. It's the longest I've owned any bike (I only passed in 2008), so I have nothing with which to compare. Is owning a Honda long term as reliable as certain people make out? I appreciate that individual bikes will vary, but speaking generally? I'm wondering whether Japanese bikes really are that reliable!

Agreed..... Ive just left my job as a BMW specialist technician. Two years I did... They have their pros and cons. More cons than pros from my perspective though.

Compared to Honda's in reliability and thoughtful engineering though, they are light years behind.

I have two Honda's now. I wouldn't call them boring. However they're from the 90's. Honda make some fun bikes today too. IMO.

Cleland, thanks - interesting reading. How do you find the general costs / labour costs with Hondas? BMW are quite high!

The "True Adventure" ( Africa Twin!) should be at the NEC soon, so hopefully there will be more details there.

haha. You think £500 for a service is too much ??? You have the wrong bike doh

Feel sorry for the Technician. They do all the work. Take all the shit. Get blamed for everything. Have to buy their own tools and have to pay for any mistakes. And when there is a happy customer. They give the wine and the doughnuts to the bimbo on the front counter who paint their nails all day.

Dealer charges £90 per hour. The technician gets £10 (if you're lucky)..

Oil and filter change on your F800GS at a dealer costs £120 and takes 15 minutes. The oil and filter costs the dealer £20.

It's the same for any main dealer though. Honda, Triumph etc. But the difference is their bikes don't break down as much and the parts are half the price.

F**K I am glad I left... Mechanics at main dealers are treated like dogs.

I once went to a Honda dealer to service my first ever bike and change the chain and sprockets (in 1993, An Africa Twin). Even being a complete novice I could work out that the Honda-Techno-Muppet had put the front sprocket on the wrong way round... Not a word of apology. No discount.

Never been to a dealer since.

These days, when I can't do the work myself or lack the specific tools, I go to a man (A trained Triumph mechanic) who works out of a unit on a local industrial estate. He charges me £20 to £25 an hour and usually I supply the parts.

He prefers older bikes with less electronic gubbins with no need for a computer to reset the "Service light". So do I: Amongst others, I own a '95 Af Twin and 2 Transalps (from 87 and 88). These rarely go anywhere near his workshop because they never break down. :mchappy:

When I do go to see him however, he doesn't serve me a skinny latte nor licks my arse. :(

I'm starting to feel like you might be right! When I have said thanks, I've always always directed it to the guys behind the scenes, whether that be purely verbal or with a small prezzie. I fully realise they're the people who keep my bike going, and they're the people I want to thank. I like the very personable sales staff, but my true thanks are reserved for the people who do the work! :D

That's pretty much how I'm going to operate now... Freelance. Now I have my own workshop and equipment.

So when you think you're taking your bike to highly trained professionals, you're taking a massive gamble. I'd say 75% of people in franchise workshops have NO specific training at all. And many don't have a fecking clue AT ALL. Man, I could tell some horror stories...

It's a poor paid trade.. Partly because it's seasonal. And partly because 20-30 years ago, bikes were SIMPLE and it wasn't that highly skilled.... But that just isn't the case now.

And when you pay peanuts , you get monkeys. But in places where jobs are scarce (like where I live), even if you have the training and experience you have limited options but to take what's going.

So in general, you won't get highly trained technicians working for big dealers because the dealers won't pay the wages they deserve. If you're lucky you'll have one 'long timer' in the workshop who's stuck with a mortgage and kids and has no where else to go. They oversea the monkeys and try keep things going. The dealers depend on this. It's not unusual for dealers to have 3-4 'technicians' come and go in 12 months.

So when you drop your brand new GS into a dealer you're likely to be getting an out of work tyre fitter scratching his head over a manual. But the dealers don't care because they're only paying him £8 an hour so if he takes twice as long it's no big deal. And if he f**ks it up, they'll take it out of his wages.

So where are all the good guys... These guys are all independent. They don't have to put up with the crap any more. They have enough work though word of mouth.

That's the reality. But if you want your service light turned off and a stamp in your book that's what you get. And that's exactly what the industry wants. They charge you triple cost for your oil. They charge you £80 for £20 brake pads. It's scam...

Anyway... I could rant on about this for hours. But I'm boring myself let alone everyone else doh

And totally off topic.. Apologies..

Right then Ted, £10/hr it is. I'll bring the bike round shortly :rofl:

Good luck with going independent :thumbup1:

I won't get out of bed for that now ;)

New Africa Twin 2015
 

Hello. Can anyone share with me and the forum Honda's usual protocol or timeline to announce details about when and where the new models will be available? Has anyone read or heard if the new AT will be available in the USA? I have not read anything about it coming to the USA. However, someone mentioned it to me yesterday. The only official information I've read was from November's announcement in Italy.

One report from IndefinitelyWild reflects the following:
"The first round of prototype bikes are built and the second iteration are being put together now," our insider tells us. "By the looks of it, it won't be released as a 2015 model."

If this is true, can we expect to see a 2016 AT in the showrooms during the end of 2015? How early do the dealers usually learn of Honda's model distribution?

Thanks in advance!

Suzuki's new DL1000 V strom would be your answer but it is not selling particularly well in the UK judging by the number of unsold 2014 models that are advertised here.
They are going for very good prices though compared with the 1200cc bikes.

As for Honda, you will appreciate that they have stopped producing V twin engined bikes in favour of parallel twin engines or V fours.
Aprilia have done something similar over the years.

To boot, Honda continue to draw "inspiration" for some of their engines from the car division of Honda - some think that is why Honda have lost their way in motorcycle design (by letting the car people take over).

It's just economics
 

You have so many cheap, earlier-generation motorcycles that remain on sale in the USA that there is little reason for manufacturers to sell brand new designs there, at least during the first stages of production, when there are higher profit margins to be made elsewhere in the world such as in Europe.

As for dealers, they always say that they know nothing!
Just to add, I tend to think that this is true, broadly anyway; why should a manufacturer distract individual dealerships/distributors from selling the current range of products?
Better to let them get on with their selling business (which is distinctly separate from that of making the bikes).
In some dealerships in the UK, the sales staff are employed on what I call "zero-sales" contracts i.e. a commission only basis, so no sales = no pay in the monthly packet. That concentrates the mind on selling what they have on the shop floor and to hell with what may be coming next year when those sales staff may no longer work there in any case.

The thing that the dealers do tend to know about is which models are being dropped by the manufacturers and the sequencing that the manufacturing stops, such as the earlier AT, the Transalp, the Varadero, the Deauville - all those which were using the mighty V twin engine of some cubic capacity (did I mention the Firestorm? - a UK name for it; forgotten what it was called in the USA market, but it wasn't Firestorm).

Some USA Dealers may get hints of release dates if they attend the big Dealer Expo shows held every year. But keep in mind, many times new models are released FIRST in Europe ... then, if they do well ... may or may NOT be imported to USA. This true with many many bikes in recent years.

The fact the bike is reported to be in prototype stage is a good sign ... if that info is reliable. Chances are the basic format for the bike is now set ... and only details will be changed or fine tuned.

If I had to guess ... I'd say the soonest USA dealers will see this Honda would be Summer/Fall of 2016 ... if all goes well. Should be out in EU before that ... so you will have time to read ride reports before that.

While this is generally true, keep in mind just HOW HOT the ADV market is in USA. Look at BMW and KTM sales in USA .. they break records every year. Honda are late to this party ... but may still snag a fair % of the blooming ADV market if they handle things well.


It was called VTR1000 "Superhawk" in USA. I owned one! Terrible bike .. but great motor! But the real GEM of a motor
Honda never did anything with was the RC51. Up spec version, race motor. IMHO, THE MOTOR Honda should have used in
an ADV Africa Twin. Best V-Twin Honda has ever made.

Same here with DL1000. Not selling all that well and we see big discounts on them already ... it's only been out four months or so. :( Too bad, a great bike many will never discover.

Honda still make PLENTY of V-Twins ... check out their Cruiser line. Maybe the UK don't get some of these long running models the US gets? I rarely saw Asian cruisers when I was in UK. But in US, Cruisers have been the Japanese OEM's "bread and butter" for decades. Huge profits. Slow sales now save a few models. bier

I enjoyed mine but I really wanted a TL1000, nicknamed here as the "widow maker".

I was trying to ignore the V1300 and V1800 behemoths aimed for the cruiser market: I did test ride the 1300cc quite a few years ago.
Brutal torque.

For the rumour mongering to continue, I hesitate, somewhat, to quote the UK rag!
Secrets of the new Africa Twin | MCN

Yes, I followed all the action in the UK back then. Pretty amazing. Guys tried to race the TL1000's here in USA AMA Superbike. No one had success. Lots of problems, that weird rear damper unit being primary culprit. But also many issues Suzuki are not known for. (water pump issues, F.I. problems and more)

The DL1000 was a complete remodel of the TL1000 concept .... and just about everything was changed. Sure, less power but reliable as a stone. Did over 90K miles on two DL1000. (one bought from Suzuki press fleet .. a normally risky thing ... but not with the V-Strom. TOUGH BIKES!)


Very interesting link! It pretty much confirms my previous speculations regards release dates. I knew the bike was not close. If Honda really get serious ... could be a seriously GOOD BIKE. bier

Looks like it is official now!
Glad DCT is an option. Not sure if I wanna learn a new way to change gears.
The Africa Twin is back! CRF1000L Africa Twin confirmed for 2015.

That will look amazing covered in touratech goodies whilst parked in starbucks.

It's just a another lardy, electronic motorway bike with some stupid 'adventure' bolt on's to make it look a bit gnarly.

It's not even got a V-twin.

But hey, that's the market....

agree Ted, I will keep my old AT with only 240.000km on the clock just run in. mika

After this press release, I think yours has just doubled in value as well.

It's another 'Adventure bike' which needs an umbilical cord to a dealership computer and specialised Honda workshop.

Adventure bike my f**king arse. Just another bike I wouldn't dare taking out of Western Europe without a huge wallet for recovery and repairs.

Being a Honda, I don't doubt that it's well made. But if anything does go wrong, you're down poop creep without a paddle.

:thumbdown:

This is great news!
I'm guessing in the next few months we'll begin to hear more detailed spec's on the new bike beyond the DCT option. DCT Hondas in the USA have NOT sold well, some models discontinued here. Interesting Honda claim they've done well in EU. (53% DCT bikes?)

I'm sure Honda will offer the new bike with traditional gear box with DCT as an option.

I'd like to know the development history of Honda's new 1000cc parallel twin
engine. I've not seen this motor ... is it simply a bored/stroked NC750X?
Or something totally new? What does it weigh? HP? Torque?

Weight and amenities will be the next interesting thing to track. Depending which direction Honda go here, this could define the category where the bike fall's into: Luxury Tourer ADV bike (IE: KTM 1290, BMW GS-W-ADV, Ducati Multistrada, Yamaha Tenere')

... or will it go towards a lighter weight, sportier model like earlier KTM 950SE? (a bike with true off road potential)

I'll bet on first category, (very high profit margins there) which means it will have STIFF competition from established models. Will it have features like Electronic suspension like the BMW, Ducati and KTM? Cost?

I'm guessing we could see something like a warmed over Yamaha 1200 Tenere'. Heavy, not off road capable in any serious way, but luxurious on road, two up with 100 kgs. of luggage, with full suite of Electronic gizmos.

This is ironic given the content of the article linked above, where most of the ink recounts Honda's illustrious past and current Dakar race history. doh

What the writer did not answer is why Honda have been virtually absent from
this category (Dakar, ADV bikes, Dual sport) for the last 25 years. :oops2:

But it's still very good news as it means at least Honda have awoken from a long slumber ... and perhaps we will see other "more interesting" bikes in the near future ... if the world does not end before that. :helpsmilie:

Ted

Never was named Africa V-Twin

Was and still be called AFRICA TWIN.

You sound like a Grumpy old man... go and get an old Jawa for you future trips!

Saludos

I am a grumpy old man.......................:innocent:

I'm just bored to death of pretend adventure bikes. They keep promising "Lightweight, off-road capable, fun bikes" and after years of speculation and dreaming they wheel out another soulless, overweight, over-complicated, boring and unreliable posing machine which are only available to those with deep wallets...

UUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Just like the new 'Super Tenere'... I'd love to see one of those in the desert doh

Give it another ten years Ted, when your back's on the blink and your knees are shot, the desert's too hot and you can't be bothered with the hassle of shipping and all that stuff, you'll be queueing up to buy one :rofl:

How do I know? Because I remember looking at the original AT when it came out and thinking what an overweight, lardy, underpowered POS. What on earth were Honda thinking of and who the hell will buy one. The first time I saw one on the road, droning along the motorway near Malaga, I actually felt sorry for the couple on it. And now look at ATs - knocking on the door of mythological status. Just goes to show how wrong I was.

It'll be interesting to see where Honda pitch it - it's a bit hard to tell from the arty teaser pics exactly what it's like, but on the face of it I'd expect it to be going head to head with the GS (even if it is over ten years late). Whatever engine they're using I hope they've done a better job with it than they have in F1

*Touring Ted*
"I'm just bored to death of pretend adventure bikes. They keep promising "Lightweight, off-road capable, fun bikes" and after years of speculation and dreaming they wheel out another soulless, overweight, over-complicated, boring and unreliable posing machine"



So if I buy one, you don't want a go?

Cam chain on side of engine.
Screw & locknut tappets - OK, hydraulic would have been better, but still...(if the picture is the new engine, which it appears it may not be.....)
Chain final drive.
Fuel injection.
Parallel twin.
Honda quality.

Seems OK to me and actually not particularly more complex than my XT660Z Tenere or DL650. Bigger ECU probably and a couple more buttons, but I'd say this is a good start. I'd like to see it lighter and about 650, but apart from that I think Honda have it right on......

There are plenty of lighter bikes that fit the bill for those wanting smaller, but they ain't necessarily less complex.....

Of course I want a go....... :rofl:

Nothing against fuel injection.....It's very reliable these days. Solid state electronics. And Honda don't use crappy cheap pumps and controllers like our Bavarian friends.

But I don't want a bike run by electronic control units which dependent on hundreds of sensors and electricirypokery which can go wrong everywhere and anywhere and can't be diagnosed without a £20,000 computer. I can't see this bike not having a full fly by wire system, ABS, electronic suspension etc. All the stuff that just goes wrong all the time...

And just looking at the arty pictures and knowing it has a 1000cc engine, I can't see this thing weighing less than 250kg...

For me, that's when you know it's aimed at the GS market. And for me, that ain't no adventure bike.... But I don't blame Honda because they're a business and that's where the money is.

For me, If it can't be fixed without a computer and a specialist workshop, then I wan't nothing to do with it...

I'm a dealer trained BMW Technician. I've pretty much stripped, rebuilt, repaired and serviced every part of BMW's bikes made in the last 15 years.

And I say with no shame that If I was to break down on one, after a few simple checks, the first thing I'd do is call a recovery truck because there is almost bugger all you can fix yourself on a modern high tech 'Adventure bike'

As always though, that's just my opinion which is worth it's weight in fresh air :cool4:

The 4th video references the original Fireblade, which was considerably lighter than it's rivals at the time. I'm hoping that this bodes well when we do find out details in the (near?) future. For me, the crux of the matter will rest on overall weight, mpg and whether the suspension's any good.

Yeah, but none of that stuff seems to actually stop a bike that ain't a BMW... good luck fixing even a CDI problem in the bush.... or a crank position sensor etc and bikes without points have both of them....my point is that plenty of people have done plenty of travel on bikes that are not really more complex than this without trouble; electronic suspension might go wrong but it don't stop you; most ecu's have a fail safe mode; fuel pumps can be replaced with any old unit from any old car these days; modern 'adventure bikes' that aren't German are generally pretty solid....

It could have even more electronics ... like most modern high performance bikes it probably will have:
1. multiple power modes 2. various levels of traction control 3. Multiple programing options for Electronic suspension 4. ABS probably will have various levels of intervention including the new bank sensing ABS (to save you from yourself!) :helpsmilie:

Most of this new tech seems to be working well on street bikes (don't know about BMW?) but take it through 1000 miles of rough piste fully loaded or cross a few deep creeks, get it all wet ... well, who knows? :innocent:

The man made Adventure category is illusory, malleable, it's definitions are now stretched way beyond anything we could have imagined 25 years ago.

Think of these bikes as stylized, up market ADV Luxury sports tourers with a Dakar Rally patina about them. The ad campaigns will do the rest to convince the public they are "True" adventure bikes. It's what they do.

Trends DO repeat themselves. These current bikes are not like the true Rally replicas ALL the OEM's produced in late 70's - 1980's ... no, these are not so obvious.

But those Rally Replicas sold well back then but the trend was short lived. Who remembers the original Yamaha Tenere' 750, Honda Africa Twin, Suzuki DR BIG, Cagiva Elephant, BMW R80GS. All were street bikes, many sold in full race livery, None were really that good off road ... without modification.

Oem's have moved on now, they've left off the race team logos and sponsors, they're now using the Adventure travel dream as a connection point for buyers ... it's the Walter Mitty Special. :D

Spot on. My preferred bike for overland travel is the XT660Z; but it still has FI, an ECU, TPS, CPS, etc etc but I wouldn't hesitate to take it RTW tomorrow..... and it probably isn't in concept, that much more complex than the new AT; maybe ride-by-wire throttle and traction control modes and ABS, but basically the same.

Ted, a code reader for the XT can be had for 60 quid from Yamaha (most other bikes, a laptop and a bit of software will do the job in the field, or in your case as GS911 @ $300, no?)

Some pretty harsh judgment by some for a bike for which there are only two darkened pictures released! I am waiting for official specs before bashing it for not being a true adventure bike.
Unless it ends up being a real lemon, I bet it will sell. After all, most of the customers don't need a real adventure bike. They just want to look like they have one. Unfortunately, the posers substantially outnumber the real adventurers.

As predicted by someone over on the ABR forum - 200bhp and the price of a small house ... and the weight of a small house as well :rofl:

Supposedly from patent images.
More food for conjecture.
Honda’s Africa Twin Revealed In Full! | Australian Motorcycle News

http://www.amcn.com.au/media/1707874...atwin5-658.jpg

http://www.amcn.com.au/media/1707889...atwin3-658.jpg

It just needs some cast wheels to go with those tyres and it may be a worthy successor to the Yam TDM 900 of about 10 years ago.


Incidentally, of course it will come to the European market fitted with ABS.

Well I give Kudos to Honda ... at least they've not gone with Shaft Drive! :rofl:

I was shocked Yamaha went that direction. Adds at least 10 kgs. to the weight, robs power and adds another thing that "may" fail.

The bike shown above ... to me ... looks fairly neat and tidy. I rather doubt the production version will be that clean and unencumbered. But full benefit of the doubt to Honda until will see an actual production version. bier

There again, it could be a parts-bin product with the fairing taken from the current version of the CBF1000 and the hunch-backed fuel tank of a VFR1200 married with the bored out 750 NC engine.
The exhaust from ??

At least it does not have the ugly, cheap, pressed steel box section swinging arm that Honda have fitted to many of their products in the past.

Once it is released BMW will come back, pretty quickly, with a 1000cc chain driven competitor methinks - a revised F800GS?

The XT660Z is a great bike. It has the reliability of an old fashioned engine which has been modernised by simple and reliable electronics.

It's fuel injection system is relatively simple with very old, proven, and refined technologies. I would also not hesitate to take it right into the middle of nowhere with the knowledge that I'd have to be bloody unlucky to have an electronic fault.

As you say, it's miles behind these new 'Starship Enterprise' Adventure bikes. These bikes are FULL of barely tested new technologies, gimmicks and components that are only there to entice people who like gadgets. They're like bloody Iphones...

The companies KNOW that 99.9% of these bikes will never be far from a main dealer for when updates and recalls are brought out. As long as they look good, ride well and are advertised properly, people will be queuing up to buy them.

I'm not saying they're bad bikes. I will no doubt enjoy riding them and have fun on them but I would NEVER buy one. They're the complete opposite to what I want in a bike. But that's just me and my fresh air opinion.


RE: Portable fault code readers. They're not much use. A fault code is worth nothing without the training and understanding to know what it means. They generally just give you an idea which 'System' has a fault and not which component.

Bikes bring up faults all the time for no reason too. When I plug a brand new R1200GS into the official BMW Dealer 'Moss' diagnostic 'linked to Germany in real time' computer, it will bring up LOADS of fault and codes. Only through training and experience do you know which of these can be ignored and those which are genuine problems.

In the dealer I worked, you'd get customers coming is saying:

"My mate plugged his fault code reader into my bike just to check and it came out with all these faults.. I want them all fixed under warranty"

When there is nothing wrong with the bike at all.. Bloody nightmare. :innocent:

Having just viewed the (patent?)images of Hondas latest Adventure stud, i can't help thinking that new bikes are becoming like new cars. That is to say, if you take the badge off, can you really tell what factory it came from? Being a honda, it will probably do exactly what it says on the label. Unfortunately it will probably do it in a totally antiseptic way. I want my motorcycling to be more involving than that. I want to look at it and get all 'unnecessary ', and when i ride it, i want it to feel like it has a personality.Even if that means i have to show it more 'tlc' than logic dictates that i should. I have always had the most pleasure on machines that most other people thought were "unsuitable". But i picked them because i liked the cut of their jib! If i want to be pragmatic about travelling distances with a load of kit then i'll take a van! If i want an 'experience' then i'll take a bike that i can have a relationship with and we'll have an experience together. Sorry if this sounds like the romanticised ramblings of a sad old git, but perhaps i am one.

Which model KTM do you own Matty? :innocent:

I don't know your age but at nearly 67 I've out grown any romantic attachment to my travel bike. Lost interest in dealing with constant issues on the road, unplanned stops in undesirable places. I know for many their bike is the center of their trip. Not for me.

No interest being STUCK for days/weeks dealing with backwater mechanics in shops that look like a bomb had gone off. Been there, done that. Cured any imagined romantic ideas permanently! :eek3:
In my 20's it was all good. No longer. But I realize some thrive on such situations. They call it "real adventure". I call it misery.

I assumed that as we age we want a bit more security, reliability ... even at the expense of a more "adventurous" machine? Looks like you're going the other way! And good on ya! I just can't do that!

I like "character" in bikes too ...now prefer just a bit more predictability, I especially like a machine that responds well to proper maintenance and care. Not all do ... and need CONSTANT fiddling. Not for me. :nono:

I grew up riding/racing/wrenching on Triumph's, BSA's, Matchless, Bultaco's and Husqvarna's, later Hondas. Since then, have had Moto Guzzi's, BMW's, KTM's and many Japanese bikes too. The 60's were "the bad Old days" for me and bikes. Too much pushing, not enough riding.

Plenty enough "character" for me. Of all of them ... I only miss my '84 Le Mans lll Guzzi. A gem.

By early 80's I saw the wisdom of Japanese bikes as long distance travel conveyances. Starting on Honda 50's in the 1960's in Baja, to NOW, riding my Suzuki DR650 all over the country.

Most of the world is connected by some sort of road .. and for that, the new
Africa Twin may be just fine. Too heavy? Too much useless tech? Yep, all true, but our little ADV Scene is in flux ... and we can't go back! doh

Do we know it is going to have too much "useless tech" yet?

Hi Mollydog, first of all, i'm not trying to tell you or anybody else what you should or shouldn't ride and i'm certainly not saying that the only way to true travelling nirvana is to ride a 1957 bsa bantam armed only with a rusty pair of pliers and faith in the love of our fellow man. What i am saying is that for me, the choice of machine i take is not about selecting the most expedient and drama free way to reach the destination and return home. This is partly because i feel the trip is not about the how far away the destination is or how remote or exotic it is but is all about the journey and having an experience. To me the bike is a fundamental part of that experience.
The benefits of FI, ABS, traction control and other electronic aids are not lost on me, i know what they do, i know how they work and what to do if they stop working, but for me they don't add to my riding experience, in fact they detract from it, they stop me from feeling connected to my bike in the way that i want and so stop me from having the experience that i want. What ever people choose to ride, i sincerely hope it gives them what they need, it just doesn't need to be the latest greatest thing from the factory to do it.
Getting back to the Honda, i just wish they could design in some individuality
Character doesn't have to be a euphemism for unreliable POS.bier

Agreed, that's why I ride a 9 year old DR650 with 60,000 miles on the clock! No F.I., No Radiator, No water or fuel pump, no ABS, Traction control ... all that and NO breakdowns! (... I do have heated grips!) :smartass:

True. Many reliable bikes have character, just not in the traditional "Old Brit Bike" sense. For me the relationship (and bike's character) build as miles tic by, maintenance done and bike is learned, inside/out.

Regards the new A.T. Yes, these first renderings do look rather generic. I'm sure the finished bike will be different. Paint jobs can do a lot!

IMO, it will be left to owners to "individualize" their bikes, much the way so many have done with previous generations of classic travel bikes like R80/ R100GS's, XT's, KLR's, Vstroms, 1st gen. A.T.'s and more.

How far one can go will depend a lot on what Honda offer in the "extras" catalog. If they offer the right stuff it could mean owners have a lot of room for creative mods and can make the bike what they want. But it will take years for the aftermarket to help with that ... and that is key.

With bikes like the KLR and DR650 ...(both around decades with almost NO changes) aftermarket support is huge. Both those bikes are bought as purely "blank canvas" bikes ... and lack a LOT of things.

But with such strong aftermarket support it's easy to "customize" your KLR or DR to make it what ever you want ... and make it much better than the standard product.

Owners are the real developers of a machine. They figure out what the bike needs, what products work or don't and do the long, hard testing over years and miles. This is were the old A.T. (and many others) have an advantage: All the hard R&D has been done for you! All the questions asked and answered. All the solutions available.

That is the case with most of the bikes I listed above. It could take years for a new A.T. to get to that point ... But if it's GOOD and Honda keep it in production ... it will get there .. eventually. bier

So, a question for those more knowledgeable than I:

I'm working on the assumption that the new AT will have quite a bit of electronic jiggery pockery (conjecture, admittedly). Am I also correct in assuming that good quality, non-electronically adjustable suspension is better than ESA or the like? Suspension is, to me, a bit of a dark art, so I'd be interested to know :thumbup1:

Define better? In terms of adjustability, if you don't know how to make appropriate adjustments to your suspension then you'd just as well have non adjustable. Ive come across plenty of people who have fiddled with their multi adjustable top of the range suspension and single handedly made their bikes almost unrideable! Ironically the Japanese suspension manufacturers cottoned on to this quite early on, i remember when Suzuki launched the gsxr range with multi-adjustable suspension and everyone thought 'wow thats like race track stuff, awesome'. Except it later transpired that the 21 settings available made little or no difference to the ride. You could argue that it was quite cynical on their part but i would say it was inspired pragmatism. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
ps. Never assume! M

ESA is notoriously unreliable and just an expensive gimmick.

Last year ALL BMW R1200RT's with ESA's were recalled because their shocks could jam on hard with no warning.

Electro-mechanical servo motors and a multitude of sensors are not things I want in my suspension.

They go wrong all the time too. And the ESA costs £2000 to replace. And not many people want to touch them to repair. You need a specialist. BMW themselves will just change a faulty one and offer no repair service.

Being able to change your suspension from hard to soft via a button IS a nice gimmick and I did enjoy it but after a while you forget the button is there and just get on with your riding.

This is another pet hate of mine with all these gimmicks. You spend you the time scrolling through options and settings when you should be looking at the bloody road. Yes, I know they say don't do that but EVERYONE does or you'd be stopping every 30 seconds !

Non ESA shocks have been serving the world well for over 100 years. They work VERY well and can be set up to meet 90% of your realistic riding requirements and most are fully adjustable by hand anyway.

Non electronic suspension it is then! I do adjust my rear shock but, to be honest, have pretty much left the front alone!

Why not wait & see; the electro-gadgets may be an option or not even offered on the new AT; some are fine and I prefer to have them - FI, ABS and some don't bother me - ride-by-wire throttle. I wouldn't buy electronic suspension mind, not because it is unreliable, but because I think it is a crock of sh1t gimmick that does nothing for my ride.

It is probably unfair to compare Honda equipment to BMW stuff, though; Japanese bikes are generally very reliable.

BTW, Ted, is it just me that finds it ironic that you end up working as a BMW tech given your disdain for the bikes?:) Not sure what your new business is but if it's anything to do with BMW bikes you might want to start talking them up rather than down....

I don't work on BMWs unless asked to. I don't particularly like working on them as they were designed by accountants rather than engineers and aren't really mechanic friendly. . I just happened to work for a BMW for two years and still do a few days for them when theyre busy.

I don't hate BMWs as much as I portray. Its mostly tongue in cheek. I just think they're very over-priced for their build quality. I actually think they're a very enjoyable bike to ride. When they're not in the workshop ;)

I actually think my lack of rose tinted BMW branded sunglasses makes me a better BMW mechanic. As I don't refuse to believe a 12 month old bike has problems that only a 12 year old should have.

Anyway.. Back to the Africa Twin :)

As mentioned, we will have to wait and see what Honda offer.
You can be sure the new Africa Twin will offer at least ABS and traction control, probably multiple power settings too as standard.

Elec. suspension is quite new, and as Ted states, still having issues. (this will change) For road bikes elec. suspension is quite a revelation. Some systems self adjust on the fly ... pretty amazing. As Ted states, the menu's on some bikes are ridiculous ... and will kill riders. BMW and Ducati are out front on this, KTM, Yamaha, Honda coming along too.
When I tested the new 1200 Multistrada the menu's were never touched ... I did not even try. Sadly, bike was set up for TRACK ... and it SUCKED on our bumpy back roads. I just could not be bothered to sit down for an hour with the owner's manual to sort out the menu's. (we only got the bike for a day) Screw it.

But once they're set up or rider becomes familiar with them, should be a very nice feature. Remember, many "experts" Poo Poo'd ABS when it first came out.

Many problems for pioneer BMW on their early ABS system. Took about 10 years to sort out. Now? Most bikes have it, no brainer. I don't even think about it on my Triumph Tiger, has never had an issue of any kind. Works a treat ... and has saved me on wet roads a couple times! doh (just pray the $800 elec. "Accumulator" never fails!)

In another 10 years perhaps elec. suspension will work well too? :innocent:

But for off road I see it an just another nightmare we don't need. When you really look into the systems (as Ted has described well) you'll shit yourself. VERY COMPLEX! Extra ECU's, Servo motors, Sensors, TONS more wiring. It's all interactive! Quite amazing! Dead battery anyone?

It's true new riders really can screw up suspension. Many bikes come standard with NON adjustable suspension ... and most work well! But serious, experienced riders have their suspension Up graded, replacing shock or adding suspension kits. It takes experience to set it up right. I learned at track days where pro road racer instructor gave me a hand, discussed basic principles. After years of blindly fiddling, finally began to crack the code and make progress. It gets easier the more you do. bier

All this chitchat about the CRF1000 reminds me how lucky I am to own a XRV750. 20 years old and 55 thousand miles and still the dogs goolies, imvho.


http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/p...er2015/at1.jpg

Isle of Skye, Easter 2015


http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/p...er2015/at2.jpg

Just north of Applecross, Easter 2015

I am very biased though... (Maybe my bike has had 1 or 2 mods.... :innocent: )

Just to add to that, it also MUST be taken to a dealer for calibration, diagnostic, service and update etc.. It's another scam to keep your tied by an umbilical chord to your 'friendly' £90 an hour dealer.

How these adventure bikes are supposed to get around the world without an update or recall or need plugging in every ten minutes to reset a hissy fit, I have no idea.

Last week I was working for BMW. A group of 8 or so riders were on their way from London to Scotland for a weeks riding. 5 of them were on BMW's. 3/5 needed their NEW bikes looking at as they were playing up on their 'Adventure'

One snapped off his fragile aluminium tyre valve for his remote tyre pressure monitor so his tyre was going flat.

One needed his ESA recalibrating because it was making the front of the bike wobble.

One couldn't get his GPS to work an because electronically controlled 12v socket hadn't been put into the dealer for programming so kept shutting down.

These are not 'BMW' specific problems. They're overcomplicated 'gimmick' specific problems.


Everyone else with a £2 pressure guage, standard 'aint broke don't fix it' suspension and a normal 12V socket wired to their battery, was out riding in the glorious Scotish sunshin. Meanwhile, these bozo's were mincing around the dealership with their cappuccinos. Flicking through the touratech catalogue looking for ways to spend thousands of quid to make their bikes even more un-ridable, complicated and unreliable.


Dy'a get my point ?? :rofl:

Well we have drifted off topic a little, but this has raised a couple of relevant points.
Ted said "How these adventure bikes are supposed to get around the world without an update or recall or need plugging in every ten minutes to reset a hissy fit, I have no idea."
I think we know you're not that naive Ted. Factory made ' Adventure' models are the two wheel equivalent to a Range Rover etc. The closest most of them will get to going off road is mounting the pavement outside their favourite coffee joint and the furthest they're likely to travel is a 50 mile radius of their house. This forum is populated by people who do go somewhere, you are not a representative cross section of the ' Adventure' bike riding community.
A lot of the people who buy these bikes love the fact that they've got hot poop electronic up to the minute gadgets, partly because they're into them and partly because it'll impress their friends down said coffee joint. However describing these people as mincing bozo's is a little harsh, especially if your pay packet has been in some part at least, funded by the same people.
Electronically controlled damping is not a gadget or gizmo, it is a viable alternative to mechanical systems and has the potential to provide big improvements to rider comfort and control. However we should all know by now that you don't buy the first generation of anything, because like it or not the manufacturer is using you as the final trial guinea pig! So if you are one of those people and it goes wrong!....Well what did you expect?
These systems are complex and it will be a while before all the bugs are ironed out, but i recall the days when electronic fuel injection first appeared and that was flawed as well, yet now most people think its the best solution.
I don't believe these systems are fitted to tie you to the dealer but the lack of available manufacturers info on how to diagnose and fix them is clearly designed to do this.That however is a separate issue and currently EU courts have allowed this situation to exist. MRF and ERF damping systems are here to stay, so personally i will be studying the systems in detail and working out how they function. Whilst the technical aspects of these 'advances' are fascinating i will continue to follow the philosophy of KISS.(Keep It Simple Stupid ).bier

Oh I don't know. Anyone who buys touratech can be called a bozo without too much argument.. Bozo is a very light hearted friendly jibe.

:)

This bozo found a couple of bits of touratwat bling useful (rear carrier, sat nav mount and sidestand foot)....:D

Most of it is reeeediculous!

This bozo here bought a GPS mount for my Street pilot in 2006. For £90.

To be honest, it worked really well and was a good piece of kit until the cable holder mount fell apart and destroyed the power cable leaving me without a GPS in the middle of Nairobi city centre (ugggggggghhhhhh) It lasted 50,000 miles . For £90 I expected it to last 900,000 miles though.

First and last time I was a Touratech bozo...

Side stand mount.. Shame on you. Piece of steel flat bar welded on works far better, costs 50p and doesn't rattle loose every 10 miles.. :smartass:

You've clearly never seen me attempt to weld anything...:biggrin3:

I used to use a piece of plywood but kept losing them....

Halfords (and I'm sure others as well) do a plastic "side stand plate" for £1.99. Drilled and bolted to the foot of the stand it lasts virtually forever - I've got two, both over 10ys old and going strong. Unbolt it and (apart from the hole) you're back to std.

I'm beginning to think the "mincing bozo" look is the way of the future as the stone axe simple 400/600 singles are consigned to history. A quick gallop through the major players websites shows just two currently available in the UK (discounting "grenade tech" from KTM, the CCM voyage into the unknown and the reincarnation of the Raj from Enfield). Contrast that with the number of 800/1000cc adventure "soft roaders" flooding the market on the GS's coat tails - the new AT just looks like Honda's "me too" to me.

I went to my local dealer today to ask when anything official might come out - we're nearly in June, and if it's coming out in the Autumn we can't be that far off, surely? Turns out we're not getting it until January, with no info before September at the earliest; probably nothing until the NEC in November! Price info will be just before the launch to take account of the exchange rate at the time.

Anyone seen this video? Doesn't show much but the sound track of the engine is not bad.

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2015/...ows-something/

Seems the new Honda A.T. is generating more interest and analysis. Here is a short history of DCT (auto shift trans). They've left a few key bits and pieces of this story out .. but educational nonetheless.

Should Motorcycles Be Equipped With Automatic Transmissions? | BikeBandit.com

Africa Twin spied on the road | MCN

Feel free to ignore the text (MCN!), but there are pictures - six of them - which have sparked some debate elsewhere! Is it a low seat version, possibly weighed down with luggage? Will there be a 'Touring-specific' version AND a more off road version? Is the guy riding just really heavy?! :oops2:

Looks kinda like a V-Strom 1000! ... but not as stylish!

Final specs and pricing released.
Honda Officially Releases CRF1000L Africa Twin Specs

And a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzT_bKsItLA

hmmmm......water pump inside the clutch cover; don't like that at all....otherwise looks like quite a fun bike.
I won't be rushing to sell the DL650, though...

Interesting video. Surprised they've trotted out the old saw "it rides much lighter than it is". doh We've heard this before ... But when it falls on you ... it's still a 500 lbs.+ bike. Add luggage, even more.

I fear 85 rear wheel HP (claimed 93 HP at crank) will not be enough in todays market ... both BMW and KTM top that. BMW is heavier, KTM about same weight. (KTM about 150, BMW about 100 HP)

I like the look of the bike, looks smaller and lighter. It will be great as a commuter or two up sport tourer. But Honda could do so much more. But I guess at the price point ... it's a good effort if reliable.

The young Honda guys in the video may not have been alive when the first AT was released, but their Sensei said something like "Honda had no competition when the first AT was released in the early 80's." :oops2:

I guess they'd like to revise history? But some of us were there ... Competition in the 80's? Yep!

Suzuki DR Big 800
BMW R80GS
Cagiva Elephant 750 and 900
Yamaha 750 Tenere' (which routinely beat Honda's ass in the Dakar with
Peterhansel aboard)

All the above bikes were available in road legal race replica versions just like the Africa Twin was. So really, they have LESS competition now depending what you count as a "True Adventure" bike (Honda's moniker for the new Africa Twin)

I guess you could throw in bikes like the Vstrom, Guzzi Stelvio Aprilia Capo Nord ... but none of them will be as good as the new Honda is off road ... but may be BETTER on road and as travel bikes.

So, who are Honda's real competition then?
Here is my list:
KTM big twins (all)
BMW F800GS, BMW R1200GS-L
Yamaha 1200 Tenere'
Triumph Tiger 800XCX

Will it sell? Hell yes! It will be cheaper in the USA than UK or EU. I don't believe the DTC Auto clutch will be accepted in USA.

Interesting to see Honda now playing catch up to BMW in the ADV market niche. I think they've left it too late ... by the time they catch BMW ... ADV bikes may move out of favor. But what's next?
bier

Whatever happened to the old Japanese marketing practice where the first version of a new bike is the power crazed rip-yer-arms off version to set the bike's reputation and the subsequent versions are dialled back to cut the accident rates but the bike still sells on past performance. Stuff like the original Fireblade comes to mind. The AT2 reminds me more of the 70's CB350 - the one where you meet the nicest people while riding it. :flowers:

I hope they do sell loads of them - if nothing else it'll break up what looks a lot like an on the road monoculture. I was bike watching as I rode along in France / Italy a couple of weeks ago and if bikes were cars you would only see three or four different cars - not makes, cars. You'd have X5s and 5 series BMWs to cover the tourers / GSs, Mazda MX5s to cover the sports bikes and the occasional tractor ignoring priorite a droit and pulling out in front of you to cover the Harleys / clones. Not a lot of ADV spirit when everyone is buying the same bike and riding them in packs. :rofl: