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The Fireblade and CBR600 Honda's are perfect examples: The 600 especially. It was updated every 2 to 4 years for decades. All new basically. The Fireblade is similar but lately Honda is doing less with the CBR1000 and 600 too. ... now making "Classic" or "legacy" models, or "replica" versions. This indicates they may be at the end of their development cycle. But something spectacular may come up to replace them. ??? The CBR600 has had an incredible run ... since about 1988 IIRC. And it's been better with every new generation. I was lucky enough to attend 3 CBR600 "new model" intros over about 10 years ... and got to spend over a month on the new bike each time. So, with the new Africa Twin, if it does well initially, it could mean Honda will get behind it and develop it. Trust me when I say ... they've got A LOT more room to make it better in every way. Probably already have at least a 10 year development cycle on the books. But whether they do it or not depends on it's success in the first couple years. Every Japanese company have a slightly different approach. These days all are more conservative and careful. Only Kawasaki really have the money to burn on mistakes. (Google Kawasaki Heavy Industries to see all they are into) Suzuki are in most danger of going under and I think Yamaha make more profit on Boats than motorcycles. Honda Auto division are struggling to battle the Koreans and their Japanese rivals are very strong. They've lost significant market share in the last 5 years. |
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Although the new AT probably will be more dirt-oriented with its tire sizes and will offer more ground clearance, it seems to have almost exactly the same curb weight as the newer version of Suzuki´s DL1000.
And it still has tubed wheels – just wondering, is this thing REALLY gonna end up in a true dirt-bike environment very often, or will most owners cover most of their miles on tarmac, or gravel roads, in which case tubeless would have certain advantages..? |
My heart sank when I saw the specs and video.
I haven't been that disappointed since I unhooked my first wonderbra. doh |
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Reviews? Predictions?
Looks like the Africa Twin release is coming up soon. Probably by the Fall.
Any predictions/comments regards the first reviews? In the UK, no doubt MCN will be one of the first with "Spy shots", secret 1st ride and such! :innocent: My guess is initial reviews will rave about the bike. This is the typical pattern we see after all the Journos have been wine'd and dine'd at Honda's fancy product launch in some exotic location. First reviews from launch parties are almost always stellar ... yet somehow ... a short 6 months later when the bike is put up against the competition, suddenly these same journos find all sorts of faults. :oops2: We've all seen this a hundred times. It's just what happens. My advice? Hold onto your cash for a year until the bike has really been sussed out and put up against serious competition over the long term in a variety of riding conditions. I'm guessing the Africa Twin is a year out for release in USA. (EPA certification takes forever and will cost Honda about $150,000 for the privilege) bier |
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Just LIGHTER, as proof HONDA was putting it's "TRUE" Adventure money where it's mouth is.... Disappointed, as well. And a bit outraged. HONDA comes on with this "True" Adventure hype, dances around the essential WEIGHT factor in the promo video by saying, "Well, really, when riding it, it FEELS light". Give me a break. Other than than for the 'mystique' of the old Africa Twin on which HONDA marketing is so flagrantly piggybacking, other than the "UNTrue Adventure" nomenclature, other than the narrow profile (which IS good, thanks for small favors!)... why would anyone with his head not in the sand buy a 93 HP, sub 1000cc bike instead of..... 1200 cc GS, MST, KTM at 20% greater displacement? at 50-60% greater HP? at the SAME 500 lbs+ So, let's see. WAY Overweight. 50% Underpowered. 20% Undercapacity. And.... OVERHYPED. :thumbdown: |
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For me, it's too heavy for real off road (my F800 isn't exactly light, although it is less than the new AT!), it isn't spec'd enough to compete with road tourers (no cruise control etc) and it doesn't seem flash enough (electronics wise - fancy suspension etc) for bragging rights down the pub. I'm a little confused who this might be for? I read somewhere that someone else felt they'd made a bike "just good enough", without really going overboard. When the new Fireblade came out in the '90's, the low weight changed the face of the sports bike - I appreciate 'off road' bikes take more punishment, but to have not really shown any interest at all about addressing this aspect of a new bike is a real disappointment. Still, perhaps they'll be a smaller cc version in the future :welcome: I doubt this, however. Fewer cc's cost the same to produce, but sell for less. The economics of the situation say this is unlikely to happen. |
what you said, plus the cost will be over $10K usd. I sold my highly modified klr and stashed the $ to buy one of these, until I saw the weight. I have a very nice dl650 instead.:mchappy:
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It's now here
Nearly 1/4 tonne kerb weight in the DCT model.
Honda Worldwide | October 16, 2015 "16YM HONDA CRF1000L Africa Twin" Near future bike shows will produce pricing information. The claimed fuel economy figure is about 61 miles per UK gallon, by the way. |
From the above website: "The lightweight subframe features diagonal cross bracing and will carry a cargo weight of 30kg".
Now, if it's essentially (as near as damn it) the same weight as a 12GS, then this doesn't sound like a lot. Perhaps the 30KG is in addition to a pillion? I appreciate that the mantra here is often 'lighter is better', but as Honda seem to be pitching the new AT pretty much in the same territory as the BM, then this figure looks a bit weedy. :oops2: 234kg for the ABS model is just too heavy! |
I think it's going to be OK for it's intended audience. I'd call the new AT a road biased "All Rounder" sports touring ADV bike. Will probably compete more directly with other similar bikes in class:
Yamaha 1200 Tenere' Suzuki DL1000 Aprilia Capo Nord May not be able to match off road ability with BMW or KTM. But hopefully the price will reflect this ... should be thousands less than either. (Honda have not released price yet, far as I know) If it's comfortable on highway two up, doesn't vibe too much, has reasonably quiet shield and gets good fuel economy ... could be a winner for Honda. I do like the LOOK of the bike. Think that's not important? IT IS! I'm sure the 30 kgs. figure is for the rear rack alone. That is A LOT for a rear rack. Rear racks typically rated about 11 kgs. (3 Tigers, CapoNord, Vstroms, GS's) I'd never hang that much crap off the back. Asking for trouble on washboard roads. But this AT may never go too far beyond nice dirt roads? But should be a good "bad road" bike ... which frankly is what most riders really want. |
I'd say Honda are looking to tackle the more serious end of the scale ala KTM. It's a better looking bike than the KTMs too I reckon.
http://images.moto.it/images/933869/...r-2016-106.jpg |
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I'd say Honda are going after the 1200GS/ 1200 Tenere market. People with plenty of cash to throw at Sunday touring bikes. The new AT is too heavy, too expensive and too electronic for me. I'm sure it will sell well though. |
Seems like they are quite capable off road unloaded!
Same weight as a GS but less tech to go wrong and strong steel frame. I was all set on a Tiger 800XC but now I think the new AT will suit me just fine for UK potholes and a little 2 up Euro touring. Saying that, for another £1700 (a little more saving) the base R1200GS could be had. Hmmmm. What dya think Ted? |
The AT is growing on me. But the fact is that it's a new bike and as fully loaded with tech and electronics as the BMW. I have faith in Honda but only time will tell if it's reliable.
If I had to own a 1200GS it would be the last of the air-cooled ones. Most of the problems were ironed out. I don't like the new water cooled motor in the GS. I don't trust them. The 800XC is a nice bike. Two up though. I don't know. |
Several riding friends own those last generation NON water cooled GS's. Good reports, very few issues from what I've heard.
Folks here in USA are lined up for the Africa Twin. They don't arrive here until May or June. No one is happy with the LONG wait ... EU already had the bike over a month or two. doh Honda are rumored to be developing some sort of new ADV/dual sport, a 500 or 750 parallel twin ... like a MINI Africa Twin perhaps? Using a hopped up CB500 P-Twin motor would be my choice of power plants. Get 10 more HP out of it, steel frame, good components. Super light weight. (light equals $$$$) So won't match CB500 for price but could be a good one if done right. Yamaha are almost certainly set to release a MINI Tenere' using FZ-700 parallel twin motor. Hopefully Yamaha will make it FAR lighter than the 650 lb. Plus 1200 Tenere'. That big Ten rides light (on road) but I can't pick it up and did not like it OFF road. Also likely KTM will jump into this party too. Most likely some sort of smaller, lighter weight twin. P-twin is rumored. Dunno. I feel a super light 500cc P twin in full ADV style would do well for them. KTM are going to find out that not that many riders doing RTW want a 1300cc, 550 lb., 160 HP, $22,000 USD bike. Also, an ADV version of the Indian made 390 will also likely appear soon. |
Finally the big boys are interested in this market.
But if we think we will see anything but commuter/touring bikes with adventure stickers on them, were dreaming. I can't think of a single hardcore Adventure bike since the ktm640 bone shaker.. Still !! If one of them did bring out a near perfect mid weight offroad capable travel bike then we'd have nothing to adapt, engineer and farkle with :) |
MT-07 Tracer for solo road touring or an MT-07 Adv bike for RTW would be great.
180Kg 73Hp 70Mpg :thumbup1: I recon they would be around £6500 New. (Still going to Honda for a test ride on the AT :mchappy:) |
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Sure, it's no Goldwing, but my other half has been comfy enough and we managed Morocco two up and with ludicrous quantities of luggage. Still glad she's getting her own bike this year, mind you! |
So just a little feedback from my experiences on my recent trip for the little that its worth. Just got home Saturday. Bike has now over 12k on it. I had a talk to the dealers today to discuss some minor repairs, the servicing etc. Herewith:
Other than that I'm sure the bike performed faultlessly. The few issues I had was minor (like tightening one or two bolts) or self-inflicted when I crashed/dropped the bike. Herewith some of my findings/comments:
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Thanks for the comprehensive review of your Africa Twin. :D
No surprise the OEM shock is fading. Seems common to a lot of bikes ... and seems it's always the rebound circuit that fails first. Is it a Showa (Honda own Showa) or a KYB shock? Looks like new internal valves and some custom work are called for. I'm sure it will make a big difference once upgraded. How was the comfort on your long highway rides? Will seat need re-doing? How is side grip and feed back in the twisty bits when leaned way over under power? Left to Right transitions? Handle OK carrying a load? Fuel economy seems good. 12K km. is a really good shake down ride. Looks like another strong and reliable Honda. bier |
Mollydog- some answers below:
Is it a Showa (Honda own Showa) or a KYB shock? - To be honest, I don't know. I think I read somewhere it's Showa. Front is Showa. I'm sure it will make a big difference once upgraded. - I'm trying to get hold of Jonathan at Rugged Roads as I know he and Nitron was working on something. I'll probably go this way, as I am very happy with the shock Nitron built for my Varadero How was the comfort on your long highway rides? Will seat need re-doing? - I don't like the step seat setup and I always end up 'sliding down'. I find the straight seat more to my liking and hence my changeover to the high seat. Other than that I can't complain, but seating is always a very personal issue with everybody's experiences different How is side grip and feed back in the twisty bits when leaned way over under power? - Assuming you are referring to tyres - I fitted knobs straight up and had no issues with the handling- managed to scrape the panniers a lot. I am always careful with knobbies on bitumen, so I tend not to be to aggressive on the throttle until the bike starts to come up a bit, but at no time did feel the back step out or do silly things. Left to Right transitions? No problems, but did have to work the handle bars at times. Bike (to me) handles like a big trailbike and feels a bit jittery when dropping it into the corner, but that could well be the tyres. Handle OK carrying a load? Yes and no. The handling was getting bad the last 3kkm or so and I found the back starting to bounce as if too soft. Before that- yes. Fuel economy seems good. - I found the fuel economy acceptable, but not great. My economy was not as good as some of the claims I've read on the internet, but certainly comparable to my Varadero. Fuel range is a problem though. Looks like another strong and reliable Honda. - I did a smallish comparison review between the RD07, CRF1000 and Varadero about 1/3 through the trip (before the rear shock got really bad). I can't remember if I posted it in HU or not, but there's a copy on this page if anyone is interested. http://advrider.com/index.php?thread...50630/page-762 Reading it again, I don't think I'd change any of the scoring, except perhaps to score the rear suspension lower. Also- I forgot to explain the 'low' scoring of the lights when everyone is 'raving' about how good they are- the LED lights lack penetration/distance as they diffuse too quickly compared to halogens. I found it hard to travel at night at speeds over 80km/h on rural roads. |
Jonathan called me back last night. We discussed various things and he indicated:
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Enjoyed your 3 way review on ADV Rider. I'm surprised your original Africa Twin rates so well. I only rode one once and compared to my DL1000 Vstrom it was "uninspiring". But sounds like it responds well to the right modifications.
I'm curious what the weight difference is between the two Africa Twins. I would think the new bike is a bit lighter weight? Never got the Varadero in USA but I did see some really nice ones in France. I saw a few "Dakar-ized" Varadero's there. This back around 2003. Very cool bikes, no idea how they worked off road. Never rode one. The more I read all your comments the more I realize I'm probably better off staying with my simple and cheap old nail: DR650 single. Cheap to keep, performs well ON/OFF road, packs up well and very tough ... and expendable. Best BIG TWIN ADV bike I've ridden yet is a friends well set up KTM 950SE. Not that much heavier than my DR650! If I could trust the motor (I don't) I'd own one! doh Still awaiting the Holy Grail in a big Twin ADV bike :D I hope you'll keep this thread going and update us on your mods to your new Africa Twin. Let us know your results and thoughts. Looks like your list for initial improvements should address some of the issues. Good luck! bier |
Mollydog - extracts and comments below
I'm surprised your original Africa Twin rates so well. I only rode one once and compared to my DL1000 Vstrom it was "uninspiring". - I share/support your surmise. But the RD07 really comes into its own when you load it up for touring (compared to other machines) and take it off the bitumen. And my review was based on a 'traveling' machine, not an empty bike. The power:mass ratio is terrible. I eventually compromised on reliability and built a 70+hp engine for mine and that was absolutely great. Currently I'm back to the standard engine. I'm curious what the weight difference is between the two Africa Twins. I would think the new bike is a bit lighter weight? The RD07 is actually lighter than the CRF DCT model I have. The non-ABS model's curb-weight is a few kg lighter than the RD07, but not much. RD07 standard dry: 207.5kg / wet:230kg. CRF dry:208kg / wet:228kg. But power:mass ratios, the CRF is much better than the RD07 no idea how they worked off road. - they can be a handful at 269kg wet, and the 19" front doesn't help, but still not all that hard. Very comparable to the DL. The more I read all your comments the more I realize I'm probably better off staying with my simple and cheap old nail: DR650 single. Cheap to keep, performs well ON/OFF road, packs up well and very tough ... and expendable. I can't fault your reasoning. But then big twins and big singles are not really comparable and there are pro's and cons to both. You are just best to choose the compromise that works best for your application. I toured big singles for many years (XR's, XT's and KLR's) and still do a few thousand kms on the XR every once in a while, but I just prefer the smoothness and comfort and roominess of the big twins. Best BIG TWIN ADV bike I've ridden yet is a friends well set up KTM 950SE. Not that much heavier than my DR650! - Yip, what a lovely machine, but I'd be going through too many tyres LOL. A few guys here tried using them for long-distance touring work, but couldn't get the tyres to last (too much fun I guess...). Also not really a machine you can load up for a round-the-world trip (apart from the reliability question marks). |
Just some feedback- spoke to Tim today when I dropped the bike off. He 'tested' the suspension and According to him- no leaks on the shock, so not a gassing issue. He reckons the oil is cooked and recommends a total rebuild with different viscosity oil, body internals and firmer spring. He also indicated that the Showa can indeed be fully rebuilt and customized. This is good news if true.
Watch this space... The other good news- seems the AT is now fully loaded on Honda Australia's system so spare part lists and parts themselves are now available (to order at least- I'm still waiting for my heated grips...) |
Just some feedback on my 'failed' rear shock for other users as future reference:
My request (through the dealer): Possible failure of the rear shock – the rear shock 1st started showing signs of fading after the 1st service at 1000km. The shock has gotten progressively worse to a state (at around 7000km) where the bike bounces (like a car with worn shock absorbers) when riding ‘loaded’ on bitumen and unloaded on unsealed roads and offroad. The shock appears to work fine when cold, but gets progressively worse as it heats up. The working load of the bike is specified as 195kg, and even with me (as a bulky rider of around 130kg), the rear suspension struggles to perform adequately.
Honda Australia's reply: From the information provided by the customer and yourself, I believe that the best course of action for the rear shock is to have it serviced and set up to suit the riding style of the customer and the customer's weight. As this is not a warrantable item, it will be at the customer's expense. Dealer's reply: The shock issue is a little more complex as we have discussed. After talking with Lincoln we both feel that replacement of the shock with another unit would end up at the same point we are at, just further down the track. We are both of the opinion that due to the demands placed on the rear shock and spring and your particular needs, the best course of action is to service the shock and spring it appropriately. So there you have it- the rear shock does not live up to the 195kg rating, and if you intend to do long distance off-road touring, make sure you rebuild the shock prior to leaving |
:nono: Man, that is a piss poor response from Honda of Aus. Last I checked, the Africa Twin is not a CRF450 Race bike ... and the rear shock SHOULD be a warrantable item. It is in USA, IIRC. How can it not be? That is insane! :helpsmilie:
One trick my BMW's buddies would do to get a new shock out of BMW once their shock was toast ... put a bit of shock oil (5 wt should do) on your shock in correct place that would indicate a Blown seal leaking. Two buddies did this on their GS's more than once!!!...result? New shock in both cases. (stock shock on GS was a crap WP unit which everyone I knew replaced with Ohlins, Penske or Wilbur's) Put some oil on there, take it to another Honda dealer. See what happens. bier |
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LOL - Might work, but that won't really fix the problem. I am of the opinion that Honda basically confirmed the shock is not good enough to live up to the 195kg stated design limit and a new replacement will simply fail again. for better or worse, I sent a response to the dealer and Honda Australia this morning (below). The dealer offered to do the stripping/assembly work for free. So the only cost would be the heavier spring, service cost and freight. Can't fault that. Thanks for the response. Sorry for the belated reply- I was out bush. I will give you a call later today to discuss. Thanks for the corrosion issue- I’m sure we can arrange something that’ll be suitable. As for the shock: I’m cc’ing Lincoln in on this, in response to the rear shock issue. This is feedback from me as a disappointed customer. Not in your service or good advice, but in the Africa Twin “brand”. I hope this response finds its way to the appropriate people further up the line- not for a “get what I want”, but in order to improve the model. I guess dealing with issues such as these are part of the ‘joy’ of owning a new model that has not been tested. I would like to justify my concern by providing the following as background:
So when I am comparing the 2016 AT shock issue, I am not comparing it to a KTM, or a Dakar racing machine. I simply used it the same as I have used all my previous bikes, same conditions, same load (in fact less as I was trying to conform to the maximum load rating of 195kg), same riding style for what I supposedly thought the bike was designed for. And it failed dismally. We, the consumers, were led to believe this new AT is a cut above the rest with a lot of media hype prior to the launch. So, getting to the point. I sincerely hope Honda will realise that they possibly have the rear shock settings (be it oil, valving or spring) incorrect and the shock does not live upto designer specification and consumer expectations. I also trust/believe that you will be getting feedback from other users around the world and this is not going to be a once off problem. Honda consumers have come to associate the brand with robustness and longevity. If I wanted gimmicks, I’d have bought a BMW (I did own one before incidentally). If I wanted unparalleled performance, I would have bought a KTM. I bought the AT hoping it would be a continuance of the excellence that made the original Africa Twin a legend. I am disappointed\ |
Well written letter ... :thumbup1:...lets hope it is actually forwarded to someone UP the food chain. Problem is, if you go too far up you get to Japanese guys who don't speak good English (read even less well).This means some round eye "yes man" will "Translate" (and Edit) the letter and dictate it to them as they see fit. :nono: not ideal.
Hopefully your issues will crop up on other AT's world wide and get some attention soon. It took Suzuki 3 or 4 years to address a clutch basket issue on the Vstrom, meanwhile THOUSANDS got replacement ones on warranty. A simple swap over to another basket on a similar model (SV1000) solved the problem ... NO cost to Suzuki once they stopped a minute and figured it out. In this case Honda will have to pass the problem on to Showa (Honda own Showa) who can only make the shock as good as the money Honda are willing to pay for it. Showa can make world class shocks for MotoGp bikes ... at a cost of $100K USD each! :oops2: But in this case it should not cost a lot more to fix this problem. As you've pointed out ... the bike needs to be tested more, then correct valving worked out and shim stacks perfected. Then find correct oil wt. and oil level, correct spring rates and work on setting up compression and rebound circuits until they ACTUALLY WORK! This may cost Honda a bit in R&D but will pay off in customer satisfaction, word of mouth sales and more. bier |
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For those following the suspension matter and haven't made up their minds yet, from ThreesomeWithTwins - Three friends on great adventures with their motorcycles!
After 10kkm on their trip: The electronic suspension of the GS is also much better equipped to carry the weight of a world tourer. Basti is constantly complaining that his front tire of the Africa Twin is to light and Fabi did not have any problems even with a rear passenger. We have put the Africa Twins suspension as tight as possible and Bastis front is still too light. Without the Topcase it is better, but we are seriously considering a new suspension for the Hondas in Thailand. |
Hi there, after 15'000 km I am pretty satisfied of my CRF
regarding rear shock I just have the feeling that a stronger spring (maybe 90) can do a better job I am around 80 kg, let's say 90 with all gears and if I fit panniers I already need all preload with passenger and panniers already have feeling that max pre-load is not enough put the bike on central stand with loaded panniers is difficult, this means that static SAG is already too high IMHO |
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Even though I've dropped mine a few times, it has never happened to me (touch wood). Camel Adventure Products make a brace which makes it almost indestructible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K2-qnmgORs . |
Hard to believe that the very low speed drop shown in soft dirt would have broken anything on that AT. I'm guessing those parts were broken riding Rock Gardens or the like ... the video is a hoax. Obviously.
Honda would not make such cheesy parts ... especially critical foot peg hardware. Big time law suits would follow if those parts were broken so easily. The Camel guys guards do the job ... but man, what a super convoluted install for something that should never, ever be required on a bike like the AT. Absurd. I've dropped my Suzuki DR650 dozens of times in rocks, endo'd it, crashed it in a bunch of different ways, never anything like that has happened. I do run a set of thin Alu, glue on pie plate guards over the cases to prevent shift lever or brake lever being forced into case, cracking it. ... takes 10 minutes to install total. :thumbup1: |
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But as you say - all the ones I know of were indeed after a visit to the rock-garden. I remember breaking one of the cast passenger footpegs on my RD07 AT. They are not impact resistant. Which is another reason I would never knowingly buy any product that rely on cast footpegs or products to limit damage to the bike, such as certain crashbars on the market for the CRF AT. |
Updates for 2018
What do you think? Honda Introduces 2018 CRF1000L2 Africa Twin Adventure Sports, Announces Updates For Standard CRF1000L Africa Twin |
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The new one comes in one colour scheme only, being a special edition to commemorate some date known unto Honda. What's not to like? |
It looks good, although I prefer the 2017 red, white and blue! :innocent:
I was told at the NEC show last year that what will now become the 'base' model (1000L, as opposed to the 1000L2) could be ridden despite a complete electrical failure; not sure how this will apply to the L2. Maybe naive, but I wonder whether the L2's larger tank could be retro fitted to the L? It depends on whether there have had to be any frame changes to accommodate the weight changes. NEC question for this year . . . :D Having said that, a TT 5l fuel can will be fa cheaper! |
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