Hey Roman, that how I get parts for the next breakdown! Make sure parts are left over from each one. Land Rovers certainly have a tendancy to breed parts during repair! I think TLC don't break down because they don't breed parts during repair.

;-)

cheers

Graham
www.africaoverland.org

Whilst Ive heard it said by many that TLCs are better built (and the engines are built with far higher precision, for sure), I have never had reliability problems with LRs, and that's doing on average 10,000 - 15,000 hard miles offroad in the Sahara for each of the last 4 years.

As a mechanical novice I can fix my LRs (I have one, had to sell my second as I couldnt afford to export it Egypt-UK), never tried fixing TLCs. Certainly the more modern ones seem to be crammed with electrickery and I wouldnt know where to start (same I guess with TD5s)

Its certainly true that during the mid-80s LR had some terrible reliability issues thanks to Leyland (parent company) and poor steel quality etc. However this ghost has dogged the brand since and, though Ive heard plenty of horror stories, Ive never actually *met* anyone who has been badly let down by a LR Defender - on the contrary, plenty of folk I know swear by them. A friend is in central Africa right now in his 110, Cape Town-bound, and his LR is doing its third UK-South Africa run.

My experience of Land Rovers has been utter reliability, beyond that shown by other marques (incl Toyota Im afraid)

Personally Id buy an early to mid 90s 200TDi 110 in good order. I can find you a few in the UK if you want.

No doubt all the TLC lovers on here will leap up and down and wave their arms about... all I can say is my opinions are based on a hell of a lot of Saharan travel, and seeing an awful lot of trucks flounder where Landies just keep on rolling.

*edit*.. and whilst I remember... two TLC-owning American friends in Cairo came back from one of our desert trips, sold their TLC and bought a Defender, based on comparative performance offroad in one case and reliability in the other.

[This message has been edited by Runner (edited 29 June 2005).]

Runner - thanks for your detailed feedback on LRs - u definitely make a good argument on their behalf! We r going to be looking at both TLCs & LRs next week and hope to make our decision on the winner!

Know what can go wrong on ANY truck is really dependant upon a number of things like, the truck itself, driving conditions and the drivers skill - but w regard to LRs do u think that one should be sure to get extra training to be preparred in dealing w certain mechanical problems more then others especially if purchasing a used truck??

Runner

I have to say that my experience with Lrs is the comp-lete opposite. Admittedly not in the sahara but in the Balkans during the war and no i wasn;t in the army. Everything that could go wrong did on a succession of LRs - door locks, tailgate hinges, crankshaft and piston failure, fuel leaks, transfer box failure, clutch failure etc etc. I hear regularly from mates who have just bought a new LR and ground to a halt on the way home. As a kid/teenager growing up in kenya, we had a petrol TLC and a Renault 4 with bigger tyres. Apart from routine maintenance neither car let us down over an 8 year period. Except for a host of punctures one day on the R4 and that was because we were in the middle of nowhere in the Samburu, northern Kenya. We all make our decisions on what to buy based on past experiences and I for one would never buy a British vehicle again. Ever. But I know plenty of others who have and they are very happy. I now have a 1993 80 series Land Cruiser with only 53 thousand miles on the clock. I may break it, it may break, but it was my choice to buy a Toyota. It's much more comfortable for my 6'2"+ frame, is a 4.2TD so powerful for what I need in n Africa, huge payload, and automatic because I gave up changing gear ages ago. By the way, the auto box is tough - all I've done is add an oil cooler to it to cope with sahara heat. I've done the usual springs and shocks mods and more. The only electrickery is in the windows, switches for the three difflocks etc etc. I wish I'd bought one years ago. Living in London, it is great fun hauling it around the narrow streets. More fun in the desert tho'. My experience in Africa lead to my choice.

jeremy

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pigapicha

The good things about LR is that you'll never feel guilty about making holes here and there or rivetting things, etc., somehow I miss that.
I've owned both LR and TLC and no doubt both cars will get you through Africa, my only advice is:
if you are travelling just for travel and adventures then get the LR as it'll keep you busy holding it running and it'll make the trip more fun.
If you are doing other things while you travel as researching, writing, photographing or doing a website, etc, then get the TLC as you'd rarely open the bonnet.
cheers
mario
www.southing.com

A spanner is a piece of equipment kept in the rear of the vehicle that you move out of the way to get your hands on a big hammer!!
two reasons for moving to landcruiser
1) cost. my cruiser cost 2050 pounds, you don't get a lot of landrover for that
2.)reliability My mechanical knowledge is limited to servicing and maybe the odd other bit of repair work but I don't feel that confident about my diagnostic abilities out in the boonies on my own. The landcruiser has reliability (and mechanical longevity) landrover could only dream about. I owned a diesel turbo 90 once though, so I have had experience of probably the worst engine landrover have ever produced.

andy
toyota landcruiser h60
landrover 101 ambie/camper
1968 morris minor traveller
andy


[This message has been edited by moggy 1968 (edited 05 July 2005).]

I must admit I do like the straight-6 TLC troopie, I was loaned one for a week in southern Egypt and it was sweet to drive. Loads of power. I felt it had less axle articulation than my Defender and it certainly was less agile over rough ground but equally had more power in big dunes, and was larger inside (I am 6' and am quite happy with my Defender, I have a friend who is 6'5" and loves his Defender but has had to modify it so he can fit comfortably!). Each required a different style of driving.

On reliability, the same guy who loaned me the troopie had his other two TLCs down that week with transfer box and gearbox issues. Thats not a TLC reliability issue necessarily, when it comes to failure of major drivetrain elements etc its often lousy mechanics that are to blame (esp in Africa and the Middle East - after some horrible experiences I decided to do all my own work and learn on the job after Arab mechanics stole parts of my engine (and other folks), lied regularly about hat had been fixed etc etc) rather than one specific type.

Ive said it recently elsewhere on here its worth saying again that the fleet manager of Red Cross in Eritrea said recently that Land Cruisers last three years in African conditions, Land Rovers last fifteen years, and therefore Red Cross are going back to Land Rover after a brief cost-driven flirtation with Toyota. I did a double-take when I read it but he was vehement!

You will meet those who love each marque and slag the other to death, you will hear horror stories about each (see above!), as this is perhaps the biggest rivalry in the 4x4 world. Each is a very capable truck with pros and cons. Maybe the best solution is to borrow a few from dealers and drive them on and offroad and see which you personally prefer!

To add another factor, there are those who swear by the Mk I Range Rover for overlanding; lovely V8 (can get TDi too), good approach and departure angles, super to drive and extremely capable offroad (better than a TLC or LR 110, shorter wheelbase). Spares might be a problem, as might finding a good one, but they are terrific cars. I have several friends who use them and swear by them.
Just an idea....

Runner

Assume you are talking to yourself...??
Are just trying to convince yourself re a big decision. Whatever your choice in these things, best of luck and bon voyage.



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pigapitcha

All of this feedback has been most helpful - we've been visiting outfitters to discuss prep work costs and mechanics. Drove an LR today and going to test drive a TLC tomorrow.
Seems it really comes down to personal "feeling" and preference - each has their pros & cons.
Have been told some interesting facts about each tho... TLCs altho more expensive, require less equipment therefore cheaper to prep vs. LR which is less expensive to buy but require more equipment, specifially more protection equipment ie underbody protection and roll cage?? Both said roll cage is a must to work into your budget and that is an expense we were going to do away with, one also advised DEFINITE underbody protection for the LR (not required for TLC)but the other said the underbody protect was just more weight to the truck and not necessary unless u r dont plan to be carefully when driving...
What's your take on those issues??

Thanks again!
Slobo

Also - received other suggestions of 130LR or 75 or 80 series TLC - to make this process even more difficult for us!!

How does the 80 or 75 compare to 78 - size wise, handling, durability, etc, etc - or is size really the only difference to consider when making a decision about any of these TLCs?

Any experience w 130LRs?? how do they measure up - what's decent year/mileage to look for and what price ranges do they generally fall into - if anyone knows??

130s (and their earlier sibling the 127) are really appealing for long-range stuff - electricity companies in the UK use them for hauling huge pieces of pylon offroad and then erecting them. Of course you lose out in offroad agility due to the longer wheelbase (partly fixable by adding taller tyres or raised suspension etc) and they are big when trying to turn etc (though there is a guy in Oz who makes them with steerable rear wheels!). You can get a huge amount of kit into them and they are very tough trucks.
Available fairly cheaply in UK as ex-RAF and ex-USAF vehicles with V8.

Underbody protection, I dont know enough about the underbody mechanicals of a TLC to comment but they do, in general, have less ground clearance than Land Rovers and so there seems to be an argument for giving them more underbody armour.

Do you need it? It depends on your route. If you envisage a lot of serious offroad rock-hopping or solo offroading them put some on (steering guard, diff guards) but it does add to weight. Dont bother about axle guards unless you are driving extremely rocky terrain and dont worry about fuel tank guards unless ditto - they weigh loads!
Ive gone to the desert, bush and subdesert with a lot of different 4x4s and nobody's ever needed underbody armour, though at home in the UK when Ive been greenlaning for recreation Ive _sometimes_ needed it (front diff guard and steering guard) in deep mud with hidden rocks.

Basically TLCs and LRs are designed to be very competent offroaders 'out of the box'. 90% of the time you will get away without needing any underbody protection.

*edit*
Puzzled by the need for additional equipment when overlanding either a 'standard' TLC or LR? Both are capable and spacious offroaders with decent suspension, difflocks etc- and when it comes to roofracks, tents, water tanks, jerry can racks etc these dont come as standard on any vehicle. What 'extra equipment' does a TLC come with that a LR lacks?

*edit again*
better than fitting underbody protection is to drive slowly and carefully offroad and if in doubt walk the terrain first (if possible) and have a spotter over difficult sections. Mind you there's always that time when you are tired, the visibility is bad or rocks are hidden.... If in doubt put a steering guard and front diff guard in - easy to fit, cheap and not over heavy.

*still more edits*
Roll cages weigh a huge amount and you very seldom need them. Ive never met an overlander who has one, though I know a of guy who flipped his LR whilst dune-hopping -he wished he had one! I wouldnt bother, to be honest. They are hugely heavy and change the centre of gravity much for the worse.


[This message has been edited by Runner (edited 07 July 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Runner (edited 07 July 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Runner (edited 07 July 2005).]

Hi Slobo,

75 vs 80?

The former is the toughest, meanest, most rugged workhorse 4x4 you can ever get. Leaf sprung suspension, great load carrying capability, short on comfort, diesel engined versions have no turbo, hard to get in Europe.

The latter was the top of the range toyota 4x4 during the '90s. Coil sprung, great engines, plenty of space, comfortable, many extras (that do work after many years). Highly recommended.

LR130? Plenty of load space. As for other features - well, it's a landrover, standard caveats apply.

------------------
Roman (UK)
www.overlandcruiser.info

Runner

"What 'extra equipment' does a TLC come with that a LR lacks?"

Do you really need to ask?

See above...

------------------
pigapitcha

....yes