1200 gs is it worth it...
 

Bloody hell...I really would like a 1200 GSA!!!! But all i keep reading is this is leaking... Thats pinging...This is broke that is broke!!!!!!........
I really would like to buy a Bike to keep and not have to keep spending money on it which i couldnt afford every 5 mins....so are they really worth the agro????or is the 1150GSA The better one to have....
Or failing that a complete different Make.........
Im fully aware that all bikes have issues but these Bmws seen to be the worst??????Am i right or wrong???Do you just get good ones and bad ones like everything....Or can you buy one and fix any potential probs before you go anywhere on it???And all will be fine....
Do i just get one and just put up and shut up and ride it???????????
I wont be going around the world on it just europe and Scotland.......I suppose i just thought that going from a Landrover to Bmw id be into a super reliability bracket in comparison???
someone put me right.....:confused1:

why would you 'really like' one ? be honest.

just to add.. don't get into a discussion about reliability of a manufacturer, it's been done to death and is largely irrelevent.

but, kidding yourself about the reasons for buying is a sure way to be disappointed. I think this is more so in the case of BMW. Some people seem to buy to them because they are 'overlander cool', and they like the image. I think BMW sell more lifestyle products/accessories than anyone else (except maybe KTM).

but then because (especially here) that image reason is looked down upon, the 1200 GS buyer has to pretend to want one because of 'german engineering' and reliability. then, when something breaks, they moan loudly because they convinced themselves that they'd bought the most reliable bike.

if you want a GS because it's going to make you feel good seeing it parked outside a cafe in the Highlands, then get one. that's a perfectly valid reason to buy a bike. let's face it, all bikes are much of a muchness, there's no real reason to buy one manufacturer over another except personal preference (if you are honest about it).

an Enfield is cooler though :-)

haha, this is the wrong forum to ask this question...people here seem to have an almost pathalogical hatred for BMWs. Be prepared for personal insults too, because if you want a BMW you are obviously a poseur.

Anyway, I've got a 1200 GS and GSA and they are great bikes. Perfect? No, but as you point out no bike is perfect. The reliability issues with the GS are grossly overstated, especially on this forum. I think that for your purpose, a GS would be great, although you could also probably spend less money for a different bike and be perfectly happy.

I've never been on an 1150, but they sound like great bikes, and the people that have them seem to like them a lot. Which you prefer is mostly personal taste IMHO--whether you like the "old fashioned" 1150 or the "gadgety" 1200.

Part of the equation is your physical build--all of the GSs are big and heavy, so the bigger you are, the better.

Similar questions are posed quite often in the GS subfora of ADVRider and UKGSers, you might want to search there, or post your own question.

"Be prepared for personal insults too, because if you want a BMW you are obviously a poseur"

this is kinda what I meant. exactly what is wrong with owning a GS and being a poseur ? aren't most of us poseurs ?

you're implying people ride GS' because they are not for posing, but essential. the implication is, if you are not GS-hardcore, you should just buy a bike that's 'adequate'. which means we should mostly be riding around on 500cc twins. No one needs 1000cc + to propel themselves around the industrialised world (whether BM, Honda, etc).

but if you just fancy the GS why shouldn't you buy it ? somehow the inverse snobbery is just as bad, I have a GS because I am so hardcore and not able to live with anything less. the parallel is trying to justify a Range Rover in a city, rather than see image as a perfectly valid reason for ownership. Or buying an old beat up XT to portray under-dog status.

motorbikes are indulgences these days.

[quote=DougieB;292377]this is kinda what I meant. exactly what is wrong with owning a GS and being a poseur ? aren't most of us poseurs ?[\quote]
Indeed, there are many types of moto-poseurs, but only BMW poseurs attract any attention on this forum.

[quote=DougieB;292377]you're implying people ride GS' because they are not for posing, but essential. the implication is, if you are not GS-hardcore, you should just buy a bike that's 'adequate'. [\quote]
Uh, I'm not implying anything of the kind. GSs are certainly not essential, you don't have to be "GS-hardcore" to enjoy them (I'm not), and many other bikes are certainly more than adequate. The fact is that there are simply not that many bikes with many of the GS's features (large engine, ergonomics, good suspension/ground clearance, shaft drive, etc.), so choices are pretty limited.

they are all features irrelevant to propelling yourself around Europe. you choose large engine, big suspenders, large tank, shaft drive (!?), etc for image/ideological reasons and certainly not for any need-to-have reasons.

you want a GS because of what it represents, not because there's nothing else and the choice is limited. there's never been more choice for bikes suitable to ride around Europe, where the OP is planning.

these days, outside of specialist riding, any bike will do. for european road riding I don't think there's a technical argument in favour of any bike; not one that beats riding something you just enjoy. it seems many people want to make a technical case for something which should be emotional.

ride whatever turns you on... :-)

there's certainly nothing in it as far as one manufacturer being more reliable than any other (apart from Guzzi obviously :-) )

Being totally honest....
Personally i think they look the best,,The ktm adventure looks to futuristic or something that i cant quite put my finger on???.....I would like something big and powerfull....(like me) to cruise with load and be able to offroad(track)
I thought being BMW it,d be very reliable...
Theirs seems to be no end off dealers,knowledge and aftermarket parts available....
And a wee little bit to do with seeing them perform on their big time supported long way trips...
Seems to be lots off good clubs and followers off the GS and its something i always did with Landrovers....Got involved.....
Mainly i gota be honest to do with the way it looks....

And there's your answer.

Now do as your heart tells you and don't listen to the typical BMW-hatred bollocks here.

(But please avoid 2006/2007 models of R12s at all costs! :innocent:)

Margus

I forgot to add....
Im 6ft 3in 18 stone so to small a bike wouldnt do......And i suppose im a bit off a show off........so yehh stuff it by the looks off it maybe i should just gel on and buy one....
And i apologise for bringing it up again...i shouldve searched first.....
Thanks for the responces....:thumbup1:

it's why most of us buy what we do, I think. they are reliable, all modern bikes are very reliable. and the GS has a huge following, and 'club' thing.

as long as you like riding it, it sounds perfect. it's pretty hard to buy a dud bike these days.

I have to agree with most of what Dougie has written, if you really want one then have one if you like it keep it and if you dont you can always try something else. We buy what we want for our own reasons if you think it looks cool then great.

We all have opinions they are not right or wrong just opinions Dougie thinks the Enfield is cool ummmmm

Worry me some more why dont ya....What problems with them specific years?????not that it bothers me cos ive made my mind up....

I wont be going around the world on it just europe and Scotland.......I suppose i just thought that going from a Landrover to Bmw id be into a super reliability bracket in comparison???
someone put me right.....:confused1:[/quote]

Just as a quick one........ If you break down in Europe then European AA/RAC cover would do you just fine whether in a Landy or a Beemer for if your not going around the world then the GS would be just great on them long metalled roads.
Posing isn't a thing nowadays on a GS as they're common as Porsches (650GS-Boxster, 800GS-Cayman, 1200GS-911 and so on) you'll just look like another guy with an expensive bike and sit at the side of the road like a broken down porsche driver hoping their credit card is the magic wand and you know how much we all snigger at them when you see 'em....... LOL! (Don't lie, you know you do!:mchappy:)

Money no object..? I'd still not buy one as they're not my personal style but if it floats yer boat then read up on HU (Tech Forum), pay yer money to the dealer and find out what the fuss is all about and when you've broke down or flat tyre (which we all do!) out of mobile coverage and it's pissing it down:rain::stormy: only then you'll know whether your happy with your choice of steed!
I'll stop and help yer out......... unless your in a Porsche that is!:blushing: LOL!!


P.S. 1200 gs is it worth it...? Nah.....when you can buy 2, 3 or even 4 much cheaper, lighter, proven and reliable bikes for the same price as a new 1200GS?

Nowt wrong with that. In the end it's you who has to live with a bike, so, if it makes you happy, go for it.

Internet forums are bursting with people who buy bikes then, possibly for reason already mentioned (they don't live up to personal aspertaions) they get slated for many minor faults and one or two major ones. The truth is, for every one who slates off a bike there will be a 99 people who are very happy. You always here bad stuff, good stuff isn't that interesting is it?

"oh my bike rode from Gib to Aberdeen the other week without a hitch"
isn't anything like as interesting as
"My bl00dy GS was on a recovery truck the whole holiday"

Personaly, I don't care for the BMUU thing, and yes it's down to the image mainly, but tossed in with some horror stories means it's not a bike I'll ever own. But BMUU have sold ALOT of these bikes, can so many people be wrong ?


Really, it's about being happy, being a bloke(or woman/girl) on a bike, and riding it is pretty much all that counts :scooter:

Just to confuse you as a R1100GS owner that "had" similar things - early years are supposed to have more teething issues while I've seen the early R1100Gs with close to 500 000 miles (!) on the clock engine still all stock! Controversial stuff. :oops2:

Maybe R1200 owners/gurus can add more input on the model variation throughout the production years.

Why do you think you know why I bought my bike? What a joke! :rofl:

Regardless of what you think, I did not buy a GS because of "what it represents"...to me it doesn't represent anything...while you might consider a large engine, good suspension, ergonomics, shaft drive, etc. to be "irrelevant", they are not irrelevant to me.

Sure, I could "ride around" on any bike, but the fact is the vast majority of other bikes don't suit my needs, if that's OK with you...

so true

Dunno, I've never noticed the 2006-2007 models coming in for particular criticism; if anything, I would say that all other things being equal, not to get a 2005. That said, I've got a 2005 and like it alot, although the final drive had to be replaced at about 42k miles, which is not great. Again, this topic is covered by many threads in the GS subforum on ADVRider, I'd search there.

I'm 6' 1" and 16 1/2st and tried the Tenere 660! Good fit, reliable, A DARN SITE EASIER TO PICK UP, looks cool and wheelies nicely, tall for the 6 footers, not too common and a chunk cheaper!!!

Why not buy 2 bikes, one for road touring and one for on/off road? That's what I did and still spent less than a GS!. It depends on what type of trip I'm doing. My road bike is a Guzzi 1200 sport and I love it. If you want a big tourer/adventure bike get a test ride on a Stelvio. The engine is a peach. They're as reliable as anything else these days and you won't be following the crowd.

:thumbup1:

Best bike I ever owned ('07 GSA), I put 43K flawless miles on it in 3 years. Getting ready to put the next 6k miles on it starting in two weeks.

Heck, I bought a second, brand new '09 GSA earlier this year, just to stock up on them...:whistling:

There are a lot of small minds on this site, but if it will make you happy and you've got the cash then just buy it and be happy - don't worry what other people say...

Myself, if I had that kind of cash to spend on a bike, I'd get the new XTZ1200 Tenere due to the horror stories I've heard about the BMWs, though these are most likely overdone internet hype. They've sold thousands of the bloody things so a small percentage of final drive failures - so what?

Have fun.

I ride a Goldwing and thats 8k more than a GSA 1200 I have had one and never again........ servicing, special oil, Gold card hammered for £300 on most services... Forget sevice intervals and problems start and thats when a Bmer gets expesive. As for a goldwing service £196 inclueding synthetic oil and filter and only an anual service. Only problem is parts are expensive, but not as pricy as bmer parts. Sorry:oops2::offtopic:.... But I do think that every one here will agree on is Its your choice and you should never believe a sales rep. (well not until you see what they ride.... xt600) says it all.. .

Oneworld Biker.
To old to die young. To young to care...

Around the world on a Goldwing and a prayer.

I really don't care why you bought your bike, or even what bike you bought.

the point is... we could all ride the same bike, if riding was about getting something technically capable. but technical capability is largely irrelevant. I have a DL1000, spent a good few thousand miles on an 1150 GS, been there on an Africa Twin, but actually prefer my ZX6. But, when it comes down to it (and the OP question), all bikes are capable of western european riding.

the reason you choose a gs ? why do I think I know.. :rolleyes2: well you said it yourself, 'large engine, big suspension, shaftie'.

none of which are essential to riding in western europe. you prefer a large engine, you don't need one. you prefer big suspension, but you certainly wouldn't need it for a ride up the Highlands. You prefer a shaftie, presumably because you like the technology. you don't need a huge tank, there are fuel stations everywhere. ergonomics are part and parcel of any modern bike.

all personal preference, for whatever reason. I was merely suggesting that any modern bike is capable, so the OP should choose what he prefers and ignore any doom merchants.

no need to be so defensive. unless you have one of the GS' from the 'bad years' :biggrin3:

Oh Christ.. Not again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Buy a 1200GS.... You really want one. Sometimes you have to be lead by your heart.

Wait for it to cost you some big money and/or leave you stranded needing the LWR support crew to just change a fuse and then you can start you own threads like:

"I HATE BMW'S - Why didn't i listen to all the warning alarms flashing all over the internet by people who have already learnt the hard way"

"I can't believe I can't fix this stupid bike with a normal tool kit"

"Did I just spend £15,000 on a bike instead of £3000"

"Why are their more electronics in my bike than R2D2's underpants drawer"

"Why can't I lift my 250kg caravan on two wheels"

"Why does every spare spart cost ££££ and is difficult to bodge"

Sometimes, you have to learn the hardway... That's why I love buying old bikes off ebay and high performance supermotos ! I'm an expert of "Learning the hard way"

Just buy one, buy the luggage to match, go to the Touratech meetings and drink frothy coffees. :cool4:


Or if you want to go Overlanding, buy something Japenese !!

Ahhhh, mambo-jumbo, it's a great bike GO FOR IT! They'll always be the naysayers-doomsday-finaldrivewillbreak-toomuchelectronic kinda folks out here. Some just haven't caught up with the times and still type their rants on DOS operating systems...:thumbup:

P.S.: And, their is nothing wrong with a good cup of joe, or Long Way Round. Come to think of it, I always enjoy a cup of coffee while watching Long Way Round :thumbup1:

But I'm not in Western Europe...:rolleyes2: And as to ergonomics, of course they're part of any modern bike, but the ergonomics of most bikes out there are not comfortable for me, or even safe IMO. I ride in heavy traffic almost every day, and I want something really tall for visibility.

Finally, to set the record straight, I'm not being defensive, I just don't like people that don't even know me telling me why I did something...

I've had my R100GS for 20 years - the reasons I bought are completely different from the reasons I keep it.

I've owned an 1150GS for 3 years in the meantime (amongst others) and really didn't like it and for the same reason wouldn't buy a 1200 - I've developed an irrational hatred for Telelever front forks. Also comparing the 1150/1200 to the good old airhead find that so much technology just makes it too complex for travelling to many places without a support crew.

Whats the difference in technology and gadgets between the 1150 and 1200????Also what if i bought a 1200 without abs and traction control etc...can you do that just so theirs less to go wrong...

You seem to be buying this for road use in Europe--I think it would be a bad idea to go without ABS just because it might break someday. The ABS on the 1200s is pretty reliable and IMHO is a very desirable safety feature for on-road riding.

have you test ridden one yet ? things might all change if you just don't get on with it (the ergonomic indicators for example), or if you really love how it feels.

It would be interesting to know if anyone has had final drive failures on '09 or 2010 1200's. Surely they've sorted out the problems now. I bought a 1050 Tiger when they were "new" in '07. I had a few teething problems but I'm sure now the model is a few years old they'll be fine. But wait, they've just fitted the new GS with a 4 valve head, Welcome to BMW Beta testing! Ha ha.

I guess the trick is to buy a model a few years into the run. Then get used to working on it before you do any big trips. There's a lot to be said for riding the bike you've got.

Not quite :smartass:! The engine comes from the HP2 Sport. The DOHC has been around for a while. While the valve-train is of a really cool design, I don't like the fact that now it takes spheres, i.e. shims to adjust valves. The other thing I dislike is the back-pressure flap "doohickey" in the exhaust to provide more low-end torque and help reduce emission further. So, in all fairness, its not a complete Beta version. But, IMO, no real improvement either...

That is actually the reason, why I bought an '09 GS in addition to my '07 GS. The '07 will be auctioned off as soon as I get back from Alaska. They are just outstanding, rock-solid, reliable-as-deadbolt bikes... :thumbup1:

Thomas, it's always good to hear from someone who has actually got some experience of these bikes instead of just " what they've read" Thanks.

I saved up to buy a 1200 when they were a brand new model but as it happened I turned my car into a banana in an accident so had to use the funds for 4 wheels! When I test rode one though I really didn't have the legs for it, it was too tall for me. And that whining brake servo would have drove me nuts.

My choices since have been a Tiger 1050 and now a Guzzi 1200 sport. Both great bikes. I tend to alter my riding style slightly to fit each bike. At the end of the day it matters not what you ride but how it makes you feel. Of course for serious riding I have my XT250 Serow, now there's a bike!!

You hit the nail on the head :thumbup: BTW, love both bikes, the Tiger and the Guzzi. I owned one of the Italian mistresses :wub: a few years back....

Out off interest.......after reading all the responces and a few have given their opinions on bikes that they prefer etc....Why has the 800GS not been mentioned???? As it doesnt look as loaded gadgets and shaft wise as the bigger bikes and looks pretty good and is cheaper to run,,lighter,and more chuckable looking???

Cuz he asked about the 1200 GS.

Personally if all he's doing is tarmac riding then he'd be better off with the R1200RT.

Was me that asked about the 1200gs and the 800gs just out off interest.....:mchappy:
I wont be just riding tarmac...ill be riding the tracks in Italy/france too(Which i apologise for not adding in the first post).... not massivley demanding but you wouldnt want to do it on a normal road bike...remember one year a guy came to the Alps with us on a BMW 1100 something or other road bike....and he spent a few days with stalling...clutch slip...and whatever else was stressing him out....He gave up in the end and went home....

In which case I highly endorse the F800GS! I prefer it to the 1200 for several reasons, including weight, size and economy.

I'd vote for a Multistrada too as they look fab! :)

Personally, I prefer shaft-drive. I don't want to mess with chains and sprockets anymore.

Also, I did test-ride the F800. Coming from the big GS, I was not overly impressed with the power to weight ratio (riding it) of the F. Again, just my $0.02 and opinion :thumbdown:.

I bought my GS last year as I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. I do a fair bit of mid to long distance riding as I use my bike most of the time for work. I am back up to St Andrews on it tomorrow in fact. I never buy new bikes due to the big depreciation. I tend to look for well cared for older bikes and by and large I have been very lucky. I bought my R1100GS for £2400. It had 67K on it but had been very well looked after. I have added 5K since last August (doesn`t sound much, but I use my old XTZ660 for commuting and shorter runs) and my opinion on it has changed a fair bit during that time.
My first ride home from puchase was about 50 miles. I thought it was like a tractor....big, solid and felt like it would go for ever, but I didn`t understand where the `buzz` was going to come from.
Having done some long runs and also two up riding I am totally sold on the thing. I have owned an ST1100 Pan which stll is regarded by many as the best long distance bike ever, but I would take the GS any day. Like the Pan, the extra weight of passenger and luggage goes almost unnoticed, but the ergonomics of the GS are spot on for me.
The road presence is immense and cars pull aside noticeable earlier than when I am on my other bikes.
Thumbs up from me for the GS range:thumbup1:

I am now on my second GS. Ist one did 210k. This one now on 38k Both bikes have done extensive milage in Southern Africa with no major problems. 60% dirt roads and tracks and 40% hard surface.:scooter:

but, kidding yourself about the reasons for buying is a sure way to be disappointed. I think this is more so in the case of BMW. Some people seem to buy to them because they are 'overlander cool', and they like the image. I think BMW sell more lifestyle products/accessories than anyone else (except maybe KTM).

I really don't understand why people keep repeating this point over and over and over and over...the simple fact is that R1200GS (and other BMW bikes) are very good bikes, and I expect that is why most people buy them.

And saying that BMW sells the most lifestyle products/accessories is laughable, since they've got, what, 1% of the bike market? At least in the US, Harley Davidson is way, way, way out in front on the lifestyle products.

Went to the motorad dealer in Glasgow today and had a look at the 1200GSA 30 year Anniversary.....hmmm what a tasty looking machine....and a lovely colour too....

it is a decent bike. but, here at least, it's topped the sales charts for 2 (3?) years. they are expensive, and they are the commuter bike of choice for the relatively well off.

lots of them in london, just like X5's and Range Rovers. and equally absurd; so many seem to get stuck filtering. there's no way most people buy a 1200 GS because it's simply a good bike (there are other good bikes at less than half the price).

it's the lifestyle, the image, etc. which is exactly why you should buy a bike (assuming you've got lots of cash), something that makes you feel good.

who buys a play-bike because of it's supposed reliability ? totally different set of priorities at work here, compared to picking a distance/RTW bike.


"Went to the motorad dealer in Glasgow today and had a look at the 1200GSA 30 year Anniversary.....hmmm what a tasty looking machine....and a lovely colour too...."

so......................................... did you ride it ?

I think you "hit the nail on the head" there Doug !:eek2:

I did. Imagine in pre-internet days, a young barely needing to shave TWB straight into a decent job from Uni, a little biking experience (MZ's), the ill gotten gains of cheap student loans still burning a hole in his pocket, close to damaging his copy of Chris Scotts book. Knowing nothing of practical use (engineering degree!), the question of what to buy is based on a desire to do the trips, right now, with no learning curve plus what's in the book and what people who claim to be in the know tell you. People tell you BMW's are the best bike for the job, so that's what you get. Many years, several rides on the recovery truck and one walk in the desert later I'm no longer a BMW owner (had four of the things as part of the learning curve) and not one to pass on this notion. My collection of Touratech gadgets likewise records my often failed attempts to buy perfection.

I'm not saying the R1200 is a bad bike and if the looks and gadgets float your boat that's great, but IMHO go into this with open eyes. The CAN bits put me off, the price puts me off, the rumours of BMW using customers for testings rings true, the claims of constant shaft failures etc. don't. As the saying goes you pay your money and make your choice. Personally I'd wait two years to see what the big Tenere is like or buy an 18 month old Tiger but that's just my choice based on my experience and preferences.

Andy

R1200gsa
 

I rode around a fair amount of South America on an 06 R1200GSA that I bought new in Australia. I was two up with my ex, 3 panniers, tank bag and 100 litres of canvas bags. The bike got dropped countless times, once at 100kms per hour on ice and other times low speed dirt stacks due wind, other drivers and me being a bit unco at times. We travelled in a range of conditions; freezing, wet, hot, high altitude and windy for around 25000kms and I don't have a bad thing to say about the bike. It was perfect for the trip we did and I only wished I was a little taller so I didn't drop it as often. I don't criticise other bikes that I don't have experience with and I met guys on transalps, ktm's, teneres etc (no Harleys?) and they all seemed pretty happy with their bikes. The 1200 was a big bike but was very easy to handle once you were rolling due to the low centre of gravity and with a sheepskin the missus and I travelled very comfortably. It had the power to haul us up big hills in Bolivia at 4000+ metres with shit fuel and could eat up kms on a motorway with ease. Take what you read with a pinch of salt especially if the comment is coming from someone who has no experience with the bike they are talking about.
Goodluck with your choice.

+1 that sums it up nicely :yes:

I think some of the posters are ignoring the question..

"IS IT WORTH IT ?" Not , "is it capable"

Any bike is capable....And the BMW has proven that it can do it. BUT... Is a 1200GS twice as good as a Transalp, Vstrom etc etc, because it DOES costs twice as much.

Frankly, I cant see how !


I have never owned a 1200GS, but I have ridden them and delt with them in the bike trade.

How much is a decent second hand 1200GS ?? About 6-7k ?

You could have three very good, capable, fairy new bikes for the same price as the big bulvarian.

So, I think the answer is that THERE IS NO ANSWER !! Something's value is what someone is willing to pay for it. Whatever the reason.

If the question was "Would buying a large expensive bike be a good idea for bugeting a long overland trip", then I think most people would say NO !!

Ted

It is a good , solid bike with an engine that has evolved for many years.
37,000 miles on the clock, fabulously looked after- only 2 fuel pump controllers fried- and 2 rear seals- hardly what I call a problem bike- they are great 'tractors' with ooomph!
Speak to actual owners who are living with them daily to get an unbiased opinion.
As to 'worth it' - that will always be down to personal perception and expectation so cannot be generalised -
I'd say yes but then I own one-

+1 spot on :thumbup1:

DO IT!
I've had 14,500 trouble free miles on my two 12GS's, an '09 and now a '10.
I might not need 1200cc's and big suspension...........I might not need a crash helmet and big boots either.
Decide what you'd like and take one out for a test ride. Ain't nothin' to lose but your savings.

Can't be any more unreliable than a Land Rover anyway :censored:

Don't fear the Jeeper.:biggrin3:

How very true! Most of what I read before I bought my GSA was hearsay. There's also a very biased attitude towards BMWs on this forums based largely on the buzz that Ewan and Charlie have created doing their LWR and LWD movies. I always wonder what would've happened if they would've done the trip on KTMs...

Anyhow, as an actual 2009 GSA owner who bought his in November 2009 (because I did not want the 2010 engine) and with 11.000kms on it already it I can share what little experience I already have.

Why did I buy this bike and not one that costs half as much?
When you're travelling two up there's one thing more important than anything else. I call it rule #1: keep the pillion happy. You can have the best bike ever, one that never breaks, is light as a feather and reliable as a Russian tank but the joy you will have on any given trip is reciprocally proportional to how miserable your pillion is. Personally if it was for me we wouldn't be riding anything larger than a 600cc single like the Tenere. Infact that's what I've had before I bought the GSA. However, my wife was not too happy with it because of limited space due to a rather short(ish) seat. We did a lot of research, rode a bunch of bikes and eventuelly both concluded that we both felt most comfortable on the 1200 GS, especially my wife. She simply loved the space she has in the back, key for long distance riding, without feeling disconnected from me. We ended up buying the GSA because the GS felt too small for me (6'2") and lacked a bunch of extras that the GSA comes with by default, like decent crash bars, engine guard, rack, additional headlights, spoked wheels, etc.

Am I happy with it?
Short answer yes, long answer yes, but... after 11.000 kms including a 8.000km trip through the UK on- and offroad with my wife and full gear I absolutely LOVE that bike. Sure, it's about as big as the Arc de Triomphe but as soon as you get going it feels surprisingly light and handy. I did hairpin turns with it in the Alps in which a Yamaha XJ900 Diversion and a KTM 950 Adventure had to reverse and take it in two turns! Fuel economy is amazing for a bike that size - I manage 4.5l/100kms (52 mpg) solo and 4.9l/100kms (48 mpg) two-up fully loaded. The 'but' part of my statement above is rust: it's already taking overhand, especially around the crash bars and pillion hand rails. I am a bit worried about the fact that if the bike breaks I won't be able to fix it myself. However, the 2008/2009 model is supposed to be the most reliable one and I'm hoping for the best. The truth is that every new bike you buy has more technology and electronics built-in than the moonlander so it's not a problem specific to BMW. I did the research on that topic and was shocked. The only way to escape is is getting a used bike between five to ten years old but that'll only buy you some time. Eventually, a few years from now we'll either all end up with computers that happen to have a motorcycle attached to them or we'll all start buying Royal Indians. Let's face it, that's what's going to happen.

Would I buy it again?
Too early to tell. If BMW continues to blame me for the rust (first time I tried I was told it was totally my fault, I should be cleaning and polishing it more often...) I might even return the current one and demand my money back. Don't get me wrong the bike is great but I'm not willing to pay for a piece of rust that already started to flourish after a month! If it's true that you get what you pay for then this is just bollocks. I've already asked a lawyer (always good to have one in your family :D) and was advised to not let go and get that fixed or replaced.

What else would I get?
Well, that's the problem - there isn't much left that wouldn't violate rule #1 (keep the pillion happy!) but that would also be capable of going offroad. Yamaha has already recalled all first generation Super Teneres (in Germany at least) and is replacing most of them with revised editions because there's just way too many things that went wrong. The Super Tenere is also heavier than the GS/GSA and has just as much electronical bits and gadgets built-in. The 660cc Tenere violates rule #1, so does the Transalp and the F 800 GS. We've tried half a dozen bikes that are all absolutely perfect for going solo but completely inept for taking a passenger.

With NO reference to BMW's here I have to point out that many people will swear to high heaven they love their bike and it was the correct purchase even if they know it wasn't.

I used to be a motorcycle dealer and i've really heard it all !! It's staggering how many people just won't admit to themselves that they're uncomfortable and unhappy with their bike. They "usually" do eventually, but it takes a while.

Some people would INSIST on buying a certain bike because they had convinced themselves it was the right bike for them. They'd scoured the forums, got all the magazines, looked at the brochures, matched up their riding suit etc etc .. You simply couldn't talk them out of it. After spending £10,000 then another £3000 on goodies you wouldnt even bother to ask them if they had any regrets.

eg. A 5'3 guy in his 70's wanted a a MASSIVE Honda Cruiser. I told him time and time again that he should reconsider. He woundn't listen, paid his money and when coming to pick the bike up, he couldnt even lift it off the stand. He got to the end of the carpark and walked back with the keys. The GM gave him £1000 less back for it than he paid 3 hours earlier. (what a c**t I know)

eg2: New rider wants a ZZR1400 to commute through the city on. 5 mile round trip. Spend £12000 in total for a bike that he couldnt get out of first gear and cost him a fortune to run. He simply wouldnt consider a bandit, hornet etc etc. He didnt even like bikes or know what a ZZR1400 was. His mates at teh pub just told him he should buy it. He was back 6 months later for a PX and £3000 lighter in depreciation.

Anyway, the stories go on and on and on !!

These people would ride into the dealership on their "perfect bikes" on the weekend for their bacon butties and still INSIST they loved their bike and it was the right bike for them etc etc just because they were too proud, stuborn etc to say otherwise.

You could see the pain and dissapointment in their faces everytime they walked past the bike they should of bought. Always asking the PX value of theirs etc then laugh it off.

12 months later, they'd come back to you , throw the keys at you and say "I HATE IT, I'VE ALWAYS HATED IT, PLEASE TAKE IT BACK"

I'm not suggested you fine fellows here are one of these guys, but I know for a fact that there are plenty of people sitting astride their bikes arguing until they're blue in the face that their bike is better than X, Y or Z because they can't admit to themselves that they blew their life savings on compleltely the wrong machine !!

Anyway, just food for thought...... beerchug

All people that manage to hate a piece of metal and plastic over long time should sell it and visit a shrink.

In my experience, the vast majority of people who buy bikes don't test ride them and have done very little research on them etc !

They do eventually sell them, and that's where I buy my bargains from :cool4:

Nice summery. Yup, rule #1 has major impact...:biggrin3:

Ted, what you said there is very true. That sort of behavior is not only limited to motorcycles tho. As an IT guy I experience the EXACT same behavior at work every day. People absolutely convinced they need product A because of reasons b), c), and d) and think it's absolutely superior to product F. In most cases it's friends and the internet that has told them what they absolutely have to get because it's the greatest invention since sliced bread. Once they have it they will adamantly defend it even if they are uncomfortable or unsatisfied with it.

I have a 2005 1150GSA,which I have just taken to italy and back to the UK, I drove 800 miles in one day, really solid bike and 270 miles on one tank.

Good bikes? Well, I'd argue that.
But more to the point of this thread "... are they worth it?" In the USA BMW's are relatively more expensive compared to other bikes. In Europe, the gap between BMW, Japanese, Austrian and Italian bikes is far smaller. In the USA we get Japanese bikes very cheap ... but BMW's are very expensive. So the whole "is it worth it" idea is more relevant here due to the added expensive a BMW represents.

The life style aspect mentioned is accurate IMO. Come to California to see this. In the UK too I suspect. In the UK probably largely due to Long Way Round/Down et al. UK sales of GS's went off the chart as a result of these popular films. Are all these new BMW GS owners going round the world? No, it's a fade, a trend ... here today, gone tomorrow. BMW are the lucky recipients of this wind fall.

Here in California its clearly a lifestyle thing ... but its relatively new ... only about 5 years old or so when the new R1200GS really took off sales wise. You rarely see an owner without a Twat suit, bags and tons of expensive Tourtech farkles. So, like HD, the BMW guys trick out their bikes. Huge profits here for BMW .... and HD too. I see no harm in this ... if you've got it, flaunt it! Life is too short to worry what others think about such trivialities.

The HD life style (RUB:rich urban biker) phenom here is the USA has faded drastically in the last couple years, not just in bike sales but the $$Millions$$ in accessories sold every year. It's dead. Thousands of HD's up for sale.

But its almost like the BMW GS's and KTM's have taken their place. But yes, in smaller numbers. HD had a huge market share in the USA. Dropped 46% last year.

BTW, BMW sales are typically about 3% of USA sales, not 1%. The GS line in the US represents over 65% of BMW total sales. (R1200 and F800/650) California sell more GS's and BMW's in general than any other state. So here, figure about a 8% to 10% market share. Very affluent state. That can be a pretty significant number in a state of 30 million people with something like 3 to 5 million registered motorcycles. Big business.

On what basis? Do you have one?

Sure, you can get more bang-for-the-buck with other bikes, no question about that. But the fact that you can buy 3 KLRs (or whatever) for the price of a GS is disingenous, I think--after all, you can only ride one bike at a time.

So all the things you read were lies? Or inaccurate? Made up? I find that hard to believe. Most owner reports are positive with only about 25% having problems. Significant but not a death sentence. A friend who works for BMW NA owns the '09 GS too. He agrees its the best yet. You got a good one!:mchappy:

Ewan and Charlie were a huge boon for BMW. Sales went off the charts as a result of the series. If they had taken KTM's they would have had a much easier time in Muddy Mongolia ... but would probably have had more breakdowns. Really, their GS's did quite good, but were just too overloaded for some of the terrain and they were inexperienced riding off road.

They only got screwed by a dumb guy trying to Arc weld on the bike :nono: and burning out the computers. NOT the fault of BMW.

Too true. If your ride is all about pleasing your wife ... well, so be it. The GS is a great two up bike, not much competition. The Vstrom DL1000 isn't bad, half the price in the USA (not in Germany as Jap imports are taxed heavily to protect BMW) and more reliable. Not bad for pillion but the GS just pips it. Aprilia Capo Nord: No longer made but good two up, great , motor but not perfect. KTM Adventure: Good bike, bit smaller than GS for two. More fun and capable off road by a long way.
A few more like the Multistrada and Tenere'. I just tested the new Multi S.
Not a two up friendly bike, IMHO. Weird seat, too small.

This is simply a case of inexperienced riders.
No fault of those bikes ... trust me on this. The KTM is superb on tight switchbacks. Better than the GS, IMO. Don't judge your bike against bikes ridden by amateurs.

The bikes I listed above (Vstrom, KTM ADV, Capo Nord) have very little electronic gadgets. No ABS, No traction control, No power mode choices, no electronic Ohlins suspension. BMW has all these things (available as options) Lots to go wrong. I would buy an extended warranty.
Don't know if this is available in Germany. Most friends here buy an additional 4 years. So they get 7 years total cover. Only way to buy a BMW.
This is typical BMW. If you really knew their history ... going back to the 60's you would be rather shocked at the long standing patterns of denial/blame here. This is nothing new. David Robb has tried to turn this around but its still going on.

But in your case ... they may have a point. I'd keep those rusted areas coated with WD40 or other anti-rust product. Try some light steel/Alu wool to take rust off?? Or, take them off, sand them down and repaint them with good rust proof paint?

But you're getting off easy. So far you've avoided the more common failures these bikes can have. ABS fault codes, electrical gremlins, Shaft/bearing/U-joint failure, transmission failure.

Wow! That's quite a shock. Do you have an English language link about that story?? That's first I've heard of these problems.
Maybe Yamaha can go back and take off 20 kgs. and lower the price by $3000 USD :innocent: too!

If you want to see rust !! Get a Suzuki ! Worst finished bikes to come out of Japan !!

Everyone I've had looked like the Titanic. Just as well their engineering makes up for it !

Back to the point, "ARE THEY WORTH IT"... Of course they're not ! They're definately over priced and over complicated ! Its a BMW, they don't make family run abouts do they. They have a name to keep "reassuringly expensive". Its a "prestige" brand isnt it... Do you think their cars are "worth it"?? You pay over the odds for those too but you get that flashy badge and keyfob to flash about at Starbucks.

As for LWR... Their subframes broke on the LWR and didnt the rear shaft bearing go on one of them ?? Didnt the shocks go too ??

LWD.. All their shocks collapsed and failed and they had issues with electrics as simple as side stand switches etc

Why should you spend £12000 on a GSA then have to spend £3000 on suspension just to make it cope with Africa ??? Just not Cricket is it !

Don't mean to pester, ...but, as earlier posted, ...do you have a BMW?

I don't think you need to own one to know about them !!

Have you owned a 1960's Italian sports car ?? Probably not, but I bet you already know that they're very expensive and break down a lot !! (and that wasnt a metephor for a 1200GS)

Well, I beg to differ :biggrin:. Yes, I know of expensive Italian sports cars and I am VERY happy :clap: for anybody who can afford and enjoy one.

...and no, I didn't know that they break down a lot, because I don't own one.

IMO, hearsay is just that, ...hearsay! I know THAT, because I currently own and have owned a few BMWs over the years. Heck, I basically grew up on them :rolleyes3:.

In other words: your opinion of BMW is completely based on hearsay without ever having owned one? I'm actually with T.REX on this one - it's bollocks. I wouldn't dare to judge Suzukis because I've never owned one. I wouldn't dare to judge Touratech equipment because I've never owned anything made by them. And I wouldn't dare to judge Italian sports cars because guess what: I have never owned one. You can obviously have an opinion about something based on hearsay - if two BMW owners approach you and tell you what a piece of crap their bike is then yes, you'll think pretty badly about BMW. However, I cannot understand how you can openly criticize and badmouth a brand in public, warning others who dare to ask what bike to get based solely on hearsay with no personal experience whatsoever!

But, just like before, I'm not going to touch this one with a five foot pole. If you're happy with hating BMW with a passion and telling everybody their bikes are crap then so be it. I know some people who have owned Beemers for years and never had a problem and some people who've had nothing but trouble (a friend of mine with a first edition F 800 GS comes to mind). I know people with Yamahas who've had no trouble whatsoever and some who have spent more time working on their bike than riding it, as well as two KTM 950 Adventures who couldn't be more different - one is on its second engine already and caused its owner nothing but grief, the other is absolutely carefree.

As always - your mileage may vary ;)

All lies? Inaccurate? Made up? Can't tell. Every bike has it's flaws and I think we can all agree that the perfect bike has not been invented yet. I am very aware that it's still too early to judge and I might still run into heaps of trouble in the years to come. I promise to keep you up to date ;)

I never said it's all about pleasing my wife but have you ever tried to travel long distances with a pillion that is uncomfortable and miserable on the back of your bike? It's living hell and far from enjoyable, and it makes absolutely no difference if that pillion is your wife, your girlfriend, your boyfriend or just a friend. As the driver you're always comfortable - why wouldn't you be? You're in the open road, you're on a motorcycle and you're possibly in the middle of nowhere. Passengers are a very different topic - I know I could never do what my wife does and sit through thousands of miles on the back of a bike.

Noone forces you to get all the electronic bells and whistles on a BMW. Infact, the base model (in Europe) comes with pretty much nothing on it - no ABS, no traction control, no power mode choices, no ESA, no onboard computer, no tire pressure meter, no heated grips, no nothing. Most owners choose to order one or the other for various reasons - I had to get pretty much everything on my GSA because when I purchased it in November 2009 they weren't building the 2009 model anymore. Thus, it was either a prefabricated 2009 model with all the bells and whistles one can possibly imagine or a 2010 model which I didn't want (again: I don't trust the engine yet). I'm glad I didn't get the 2010 model because it's supposed to be a lot louder and apparantly suffers from a pretty serious case of vibrationitis.

As for warranty: you only get three years in Canada and the USA. In Europe we only get two years warranty (with every brand, not just BMW). I might purchase an additional two to five years depending on how happy I'll be with the bike once the original warranty runs out.

I'll look around. This bit came from my dealer who happens to sell both Yamaha and BMW (which is how I ended up with a BMW - I went there to get a brand new XT660Z Tenere and ended up with a GSA doh). He's had nothing but trouble with the Super Tenere and told me that every single one he's sold has been back with minor or major problems.

I've ridden, bought/sold most of the BMW range along with most other brands !!

I trainded as a motocycle tech and also worked in a very large chain of motorcycle dealerships in the U.K..... Bmw's were in and out all day long.

I've dealt with them more than most of their owners infact !!

Also, while on the road (especially South America), BMW's keep the Overland workshops in business there. Just ask Javier at Dakar Motos ! I was staying there for a few months and it's one BMW after another needing repair. It's not hearsay, it's fact !!

I have to say, with absolute honesty, the only bikes I saw broken down in South America (bar a DR350 with no oil and a Chinese Scooter) were BMW's

!! THAT is where I base my "biast" opinion.

Maybe it was coincidential ??? Maybe it wasn't !!

I have to admit, these were mostly F650's (no need to ask my opinion of these) but there were a couple of 1200's too. Starter motor failed on one guy and the other guys shock (new bike) has collapsed. In 6 months, seeing hundreds of other bikers (on some really old high mileage hacks), I didnt see any other breakdowns !

ALL bikes have their problems, of course they do !! But in MY EXERIENCE (and my experience only) the stranded bikes are usually BMW's !! Maybe because they're impossible to fix without a high tech workshop, an Electrical Engineer and a suitcase full of electronics that are more suited to a space shuttle than an overland mile muncher...

I'm sorry (and I may lose friends here), that you only have to watch the threads on horizons to see "My bmw is broken here, my bmw is broken there"

I DON'T HATE BMW'S ! IM NOT ANTI GERMAN ! I DON'T HAVE A PERSONAL VENDETTA !!

It's just in your face and obvious if you can see through your LWR branded tinted spectacles !

They aren't SH*T bikes... If I was riding around Europe, I'd have one myself if it was reasonably priced. The 1200's are great bikes for handling, power, comfort !! I've done distance on one !! I would just never trust one on a RTW.

So getting back to the point.. .IS IT WORTH IT ??? To me, NO ! For many reasons... Its just too expensive, heavy, over complicated and difficult to repair.


Well, rant over !! Feel free to ignore it :D

Hi Tour@Ted

Is there any make of bike that you like? :cool4:You say you don't like Suzuki, BMW, Honda,(you slagged off Africa Twins but bought 3 of themdoh!) as well as Italian cars etc. I could have missed some other makes you don't like, which you are entitled to do of course.

Hey, that's fine actually, for bikebashing posts are ten a penny, but to dislike so many makes of bike maybe devalues your opinion.

What I'm asking you is, tell us what make of bike you do approve of? :thumbup1:

You've said you are a bike technician - does that mean a motorcycle mechanic who served an apprenticeship, or something else? Can you clear that one up, please?

:scooter:

My dear Caminando.. You are the master of exageration ! :blushing:

I don't hate any bike nor do I ejaculate over a particular brand just because it happens to be in my garage !

I see bikes as machines/tools/piece of engineering ! I don't get particularly excited about lawn mowers, electric smoothy makers or inkjet printers either !!

I didnt "slag off" the Africa Twin. I just pointed out its failings which are fact. The dude asked, I told him !! I'll tell you about my DRZ's failings too if you'd like ?? :cool4: If I didnt like them, I woudn't of bought three of them lol.

If you don't just concentrate on the nagatives, you will hear equal or more praises for most bikes than critisisms !

Just caus I say Suzukis rust, doesn't mean I dont like them, does it ??? They do rust, the finish IS poor. Again, its just fact my friend !

What do I approve if ?? Does it matter ??? People are free to take on to ignore information at their lesuire... :smartass:

Last time I checked this was an OVERLAND motorcycle forum, aimed for people who like to travel overland on their bikes, so for me I'd say any bike which is:

Simple for the average rider to maintain, affordable to buy and have readily available spare parts, reliable, economical, have a sturdy well built chassic to hold luggage, be built of long lasting components and be simple to convert into a good overland machinne.. Branding has NOTHING to do with it !!

If you're asking me which bike id recommend for a track day, trip to the pub on, or posing outside starbucks on, surely thats for a different forum altogether.... Like visordown etc ??

Moto tech: I did 4 years F/T in college, C&G 1 & 2 and IMI 1, 2 & 3.. Used to run my own wreck - restoration Ebay business too. Also worked in the largest multi francise dealership in North of England in sales and occasional tech (better money). I didn't do an apprentiships as I prefered to be taught properly and not be someones "bitch" for pocket change.

:scooter:

That's very interesting indeed. I always thought the old F650 Rotax single was very reliable simply because it didn't have any bells and whistles.
And did I get that right: you didn't see any bikes other than BMWs break down? Not a single one?

I am really thinking very hard and I really can't think of any other mechanical/electrical breakdown... Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I didnt see or hear of it. My XT had a issue with a clogged carb filter if that counts though ???

The F650 engine IS reliable and a good one. It's the reg/rect, waterpump, ABS, general bits falling off, plastics breaking etc etc Do a search, theres plenty to read about. Going a bit off topic here though aren't we !! ??

Staying off topic, my '06 F650 was dead-bolt reliable. Did my first Alaska/Canada trip on it, completed my first "Iron Butt" ride on it. Just a great bike all the way around. Nothing has fallen off either :clap:.

And, I don't take my bikes to a dealership, because that's where I have made consistently bad experience :(.

Glad to hear it !! Of course, they don't/can't all go wrong ! Just a numbers & statistics game isn't it !!

Thanks T/Ted,:cool4: glad you could clear that up. In fact though, you have passionately slagged ATs something rotten which is quite legit, but then you bought three. 'Nuff said?

You spoke of ejaculation, about which I will say no more! Each to his own....:blushing:You could post that on Visordown maybe?
Anyway, buen viaje, have fun:scooter:

Sorry, can't agree with that at all !!! Over the years i've promoted them to what must be 1000x more than i've ever criticised them.

Sure T/Ted,:thumbup1: I only refer to your recent post when you got a little bit emotional in slagging ATs. But that's OK!

:mchappy:Buen viaje!

So you like Suzukis.......:stormy:

I'm just bipolar !!! Then again, so am I !!!

Hi TouraTed
Bipolar doesn't mean schizophrenic BTW. :rolleyes2:

Could mean "very inconsistent"?

Now wot abaat those Suzukis - do ya love 'em or hate 'em? And those BMWs? and those Hondas; and those KTMs? and, and...:thumbup1:
Please don't ejaculate over anyone's bike though; he might get nasty...

Anyway, bye for now!:mchappy:

Yeah, stay the hell away from my bike. There's rust all over it already and absolutely no need to make things even worse :taz: :rofl:

You should know I guess :smartass:

Mental disorders aren't really my strong suit !


If you wan't to know my opinions on all brands of bikes, buy my book which is out at the end of the month !!

I've had R100GS, R1100GS, R1200GS, R1200GSA. All great bikes, no major problems with any of them. 1200GSA was the best of them all

At least we'l know how to spot you at the meetings !!

http://vistabmw.com/mm5/graphics/000...mwCap_Mesh.jpg

:Beach:

TouraTed! I truly don't want your opinion on bikes:laugh:, but very glad to hear you have a book coming out:thumbup1: Good man! That's not easy to do, so well done that man!

Tell us more, come on, you're not usually shy about such things! Hope you had a good proof reader for all those spelling and punctuation mistakes.....

But let's have some details on your book.....Send me a copy and I'll review it.....

It's a book about internet trolling so I guess you would be the best person to review it !:clap:

Hey Ted ,just keep on telling it the way you see it .
A real person with an honest point of view is a refreshing change from the spineless trollers .
Enjoy your trip :palm::scooter::Beach:.

You can't please everyone !! :scooter:

Cheers dude !! I'm looking forward it...

To answer the original question. Yes,they are worth it.
Get one and be convinced. I bought a new 12GS in June '09 and swapped it for another new DOHC 12GS in May '10. 14,000 miles covered on them so far,no problems.
I've had thirty-odd years of biking on Japanese,British and American stuff and I can honestly say I've never enjoyed the biking so much as I'm enjoying it on the GS.

Ted, whats wrong with you? I only asked about your book, and you won't tell. So please stop your trolling/flaming and give us the publisher, the title, where to get a copy and all that stuff. It's brilliant when an HU member writes a book. Look at Sam Manicom, Lois Price, Simon Gandolphi, and Paul Pratt. People are not "stalking " you if they read your book and your posts.

Can't you stop kidding around for a moment? Will you give us some info? I would be pleased to hear it, because publishing is not so easy, and you have done brilliantly well to get to the publishing/distribution stage; many don't even get that far.

I thoroughly congratulate you on your book. I will buy a copy.

PS I've PMd you with some serious advice.

Hi StarB

I've never owned a BMW but those trouble free miles say a lot! I have a RTW friend on a BMW at the moment and that bike has served him/them well for thousands of miles including a crash in India (surprise?!). The bike was fixed and they roll on.

That looks like fine country in your pics and I can tell you there's lots of great trout fishing all round there.

Welcome to the HUBB :welcome:

Thanks Whitey ... so I guess all can now be reassured that the thousands of documented problems with the BMW models you list are nothing more than "here say" from "haters" and those jealous of "superior German Engineering?

That ALL "so called" problems are from people who don't own BMW's? Are paid by the Japanese to discredit BMW?
Are you implying none ever break down and are 100% reliable?

I'd love to see you're service histories on all those bikes and decide what
"no major problems" really means as this interpretation can vary from owner to owner. :innocent:

Aha !!... but you didn't try the R1150 or the R1150GSA which was maybe really the best of them all .... :scooter:you might never know

Im not releasing a book.. I'm taking the piss ! As you know !!!!!!!!!!:censored:

Funny how the "trolling" new member suddenly dissapeared once they were discredited and maybe "uncovered"

Jesus christ, has this forum really come to this !!! I'll happily deactivate my membership and hang my head in shame if i've let myself become part of the problem.......

'09 @ Bonar Bridge, N/E Scotland and July '10 overlooking Loch Eriboll, N/W Scotland.


Great fishing?????