Wow, another BMW thread. Why do they all end up like this? Allow me to relate:

I had a Honda (POS) then an MZ (best bike ever made). I wanted faster and bigger to go further but knew I had the mechanical skills of a penguin. "People" told me BMW's were reliable. (In my defence this was pre-internet). I latched on to an idea that so long as I had a new enough BMW I'd never end up walking across North Africa wondering how you get a bike back to civilisation when it's cooling system is stuffed. This becomes a sort of mantra you repeat, something you need to cling onto to make the demons in your head go away.

Now, any heretics who might want to break up this nice, safe, warm world of BMW has to be flamed mercilessly by the believers in case they are actually right. BMW shafts do not strip, burn the heretic, BMW indicator switches are not pointlessly complex, burn the heretic, BMW are value for money they never break down, burn the heretic.....

Four bikes later and I'm walking across a bit of North Africa with a plan that involves walking into a petrol station and buying enough glue, sealant, coolant and oil to bodge together a semi-functional F650 waterpump. The god of BMW's was dead to me, the idea that I'd get some practice in and become a better mechanic was looking much nicer.

I had a Yam and then a Triumph. Just like the heretics said they were just as good when working, just as bad where the manufacturers had cut corners (eg by not having bearings in the waterpump, by using Bosch relays made in China etc. etc.) but more to the point cheaper. I'm now putting together a K-outfit and hanging about with BMW people again. Their god is alive is alive and kicking in many cases.

So, IMHO, is an R1200GS worth it, no, not unless thats the bike you want.

Ask youself why you want it. Do you want a high tech, powerful bike made to modern styles and standards? If the answer is yes the BM should be on your list of things to look at. Do you want a bike that never breaks down? If that's your reasoning you need get inventing because no one makes that bike yet, certainly not the marketing department in Munich and their worshippers on the web.


Andy

As I will now be asked if I actually owned any BMW's a resume:

1994 F650 1994-1997 no problems except crap service at the dealer. They all do that Sir!
1997 R1100R 1997-1999 had three front shocks in three months plus an electrical meltdown when new. Sorted at three months.
1999 F650 1999-2004 Died in the desert.
1996 R1100R 2002-2005 Electrical **** galore
1984 K100 2010- 23000 miles on the clock of which only 450 are mine. Everything works so far.

I had an early 1200GS and had some problems (shaft drive failure), main seal leak and clutch replacement but I think the newer ones are better.

It is a very good bike despite the problems, and if you get one with warranty, the problems are much less annoying.

I did 30,000 miles on mine in a year and a half and in the end the main reason I sold it was because of how fast it was depreciating.

Still riding my 1100 around without the same worries.

Buy the bike you want and be happy, people will always write more about their grievances than their happiness so most problems you read about are exaggerated.

HTH,

David

Yes Rab, quite right IMO. All bikes have various problems and in the end we strike a balance, where the benefits outweigh the bad points. It's funny about BMWs though, because a minority of people get nasty when they slag them. I don't know where the hatred comes from.

I know the common probs on my bike, and adjust for that, as most of us do.

The marketing ("Ultimate Riding Machine" :confused1:) plus the level of belief in the marketing shown by some of the pro camp versus the feeling of banging your head against a brick wall when even a small defect is mentioned. I'll admit now that I've wasted about 10% of what I've spend on bikes to get that certain badge and not a lot more except a warm feeling that the badge meant something, but no way would I have admitted that ten years ago. Triumph and Yamaha owners faced with someone saying the paint is rubbish say "Yes it is", some BMW owners faced with disillusionment in what they bought into have to try the "well it's only a tiny percentage" route. You pay a premium price for an average product. It makes you defensive.

Ask a true believer about the premium price and you get the circular argument that if it costs more it must be better. The real answer is that BMW knows about the true believers and has high production costs due to low volumes, odd products and their need to keep manufacturing in Germany.

Belief vs logic = conflict

The non-believers need to look at the warm feeling the believers get from the badge and move on, one size does not fit all. Ditto for Ural foilheads who think a 750cc pushrod can do what a 1000cc OHC can do and the Harley riders who think Japanese bikes are inferior in anything except the branding and history.

Andy

Yes very good lochs for the wet fly. Sometimes on the right day, dapping too.

You know, the bike, the tent and some good fishing is fantastic.:thumbup1:

Can we please drop all this childish behaviour now !!

I apologise to all for any of my posts that have contributed to any ill feeling.. It certainly wasn't my intention !

A little heated debate keeps life interesting and the forum "vibrant" , but lets not get personal !

:scooter:

I can buy into this summery without problem :thumbup:. Don't care too much for BMW marketing either. ...long story :rolleyes3:


Hmmm, ...could this history have something to do with your style of riding and wrenching??? :biggrin:

Certainly. The Yamaha though was showing every sign of living with this style and the Triumph has lived with it for six years. I break MZ's at a rate of about one incident that needs parts every two years, but they are stupidly easy to fix.

Andy

I took you seriously Ted, simply because that's what you said. I didnt realise that you were "taking the piss". Never mind; I was pleased as I said, that this book was happening for you, and I believed your word was true. Read my post.

You're right about the alias post, as I privately said to you, when the identity of this person came up. I previously noted that he'd removed it. Subsequent posts from him made it certain, and IP info would clinch it. He or his relative removed his transatlantic post pretty sharpish, but was caught in a trap because others had quoted it. He was ready with protests and excuses in another thread before he was even asked, and revealed himself in other ways.

Have a good journey in Africa....

Troll = shroom21?
 

Just to clarify: The offending post was removed by a Mod (in this case not me). The IP details of the post were

"
The IP Address is: 86.182.157.245. The host name is: host86-182-157-245.range86-182.btcentralplus.com.
"

HTH. Am off riding.
Chris

The BMW Defense Force are quite fond of casually slinging around the "hate" moniker. I'd be very careful here. I associate "hate" accusations with Neo Nazi groups, Militia and White supremacist groups and other extremist outfits ... these are real "haters".

I don't see "hate" here on the HUBB in any threads ... just a bit of disagreement. As Three Wheel Bonnie points out, the True Believers go after anyone who dares mention any negative fact regards BMW ... and labels them a "Hater". This is unacceptable ... and really is reverse Hate speech. Very clever tactic.

As far as who the REAL BMW critics are? And where they come from?? .... the most vehement attacks on BMW I've ever seen come from the owners themselves. Go on their owners Clubs & forums. You can find reams of hot complaints against BMW. Mostly having to do with BMW blaming the owner, not honoring warranty claims or multiple/repeating problems.

The other place one might get a hard-on against BMW is at BMW rallies. Kind of like going to a evangelical prayer meeting if you're an atheist. Gets a bit sickening after a while.

It's like this thing, where you can yell and scream at your own kid, but nobody else better dare try doing that... doh

Or, like the movie "Meet the Fockers", you don't count unless you're in the cirlce of trust... :biggrin3:

Amen to that...:yes:

---

I love BMW bikes, the technology, they way they handle etc. But, BMW marketing is a real piece of work. I was pretty active on BMWXPLOR, actually, before it became XPLOR.

They really blew the top, when they requested that we would not discuss/mention other bike brands unless it was in "General Chat". Well, we complied grudgingly :rolleyes2:. A month into this new "rule" they excluded "General Chat" from the post up dates. ...:eek3:. Eventually, we (about 60 active folks) packed up and left, starting our own forum. Shortly thereafter the XPLOR message board was dead.

We had communication back and forth with corporate gurus up in New Jersey, who some of us had met personally at XPLOR events. They wouldn't give us any substantial comments (...expected) but, they agreed in so many ways that the new policy was counterproductive, among other things...:rolleyes2:

That would be me, after a complaint from a party outside of the discussion. I did a check, at the time, of IP addresses and there was no other user to have posted from that IP address before.

And thank you to the other user who removed their own post.

Cheers all

Nigel in NZ

Certainly seen a lot of the failure / problems reported and by no means suggesting that they will not go wrong at some point, its just that its not my experience. The maintenance I have done has just been in line with BMW's recommendations though never go past milage on oil filter changes.

By no major problems I mean no final drive bearings , nothing on the engines within the outer cases i.e crankcase, barrels , heads , rocker covers, no gearbox problems and no electronic problems on the later models.

Few carb related issues on the R100 ran this from around 50k miles to 70k miles. Nothing on the R1100GS and had this from 25k miles to 50k miles. Then tried to buy a new 950KTM but kept getting messed around by dealers so walked away from that plan and bought the R1200GS. Ran that from new in 2004 (so early model) to 20k miles and bought the GSA. Flogged that last year to raise some funds. Grabbed an R1150RT to hack around on as thats my only transport at the moment needed something to haul luggage and don't want a car.

Along the way in 25 years of biking I've had Honda's, Yamaha's a Ducati and a Moto Guzzi (for a while), a KTM and GAS GAS enduro bikes. If its a motorbike I like it. They'll all break your heart at some point but the R1200GSA has given me the biggest smiles and fitted the bill of most things I want out of a bike.

Haha, this is really funny! Here is Whitey, a guy who has owned several BMWs and simply stated that he thought they were good bikes and made no general statements about BMWs at all...

And then there is Mickey D, who then for some reason goes on to draw sweeping and wholly unjustified conclusions about what Whitey was implying...

Micky, why don't do us all a favor and quote some of these posts in which people claim that "the...documented problems with the BMW models...are nothing more than 'here say' [sic] from 'haters'" or that "none ever break down and are 100% reliable"? Because I don't remember seeing any?

Welcome to the hubb :wave:

I thought you had learned not to write anything positive about BMW.
Luckily I was wrong, but don't push your luck :rofl:

BMW Premium brand? That's is about the best bit of marketing ever. Porsche: Designed everything from the VW Beetle to Tiger Tanks, a lot of good products. Ferrari: Never made a slow car. BMW? Set up as a manufacturer or aircraft engines, failed, made to copy Mercedes. Went into motor cycles to avoid going bust. Copied the Austin 7 yet only avoided bankrupcy by getting into bed with the Nazis. Totally ignored the jeep idea and kept making every more complex sidecars until even the Nazi's turned them off. Looked at the VW Beetle: made Bubble cars. Realised Beetles were outselling them, switched to cars, went bust. Resurected by the Bavarian Government, ran the airhead until they almost went bust, rescued again. Bought Landrover, almost bust again.

You have to say they are hard to keep down, but the "premium brand" thing was made up by BMW UK in the 1970's on the German = Good but expensive line. In Germany they are just cars and bikes.

Andy

Good grief...

The "BMW Marketing is evil" theme... again. :yawn:
So why is BMW marketing "evil-extra" and all the others only "evil-light", or even just "mildly mischievous"?

Perhaps someone, anyone, can point out to me a marketing campaign, ethos, whatever, from any brand, or any product market, that doesn't have utter B-S at its roots? They all peddle the same idea: our product will make you something you are not.

I've never found one that doesn't...

Here's a different angle for you:

Is it perhaps the case that BMW marketing has lead to many many more people with no mechanical skills and only a modicum of biking experience believe they can get out there and do it themselves, thus leading to a significantly larger number of people on BMW's than there otherwise would have been?

People (like me) who would only have dreamed of gettting a GS style bike and heading off over the horizon (it being unlimited!) now believe they can do it. And the bike which seems to consistenly fit the bill is a GS of some description. Sure it might break down, but then that's possible with any bike. And having read quite a few books now, it seems most of the adventures / interactions happen when things go wrong.

You also have this kinda security blanket feeling that ultimately you'll be able to get a part shipped to you from somewhere, and the fact there are so many GS's out there means there's a lot of knowledge on what goes wrong and how to fix them.

I do hope other brands catch up, and things like the new 1200 Tenere will push the manufacturers to improve the bikes they produce - ultimately we can only be the winners.

BMW and the LWR/D series can only be applauded for opening a lot of eyes, wallets and doors in my opinion.

Same old borring storie
 

BMW do break (not mine) but if you look at the big picture how many bikes are going fully loaded arround the globe on and off road and come back to talk about it (BMW) its like Land Rover VS Land Cruiser , I personnaly search for a while and up with a bemmer, I took one across Africa and didn't have any problem and the one I ride now is just perfect . best things to do is ignore most of negative post, maintain your bike and drive for 100000 of Miles :scooter:

Evil is the wrong word, I'd go for unsubtle and overwhelming but oddly sucessful. Marketing is saying "You meet the nicest people on a Honda", "Dare to be different with a Ural", "Live the Dream" etc. "The Ultimate Riding Machine" is a lie otherwise their last TT win wouldn't have been in 1939, their dealers wouldn't have the catch phrase "they all do that SSssssir" and so on. I get brands that have history, I get brands that deliver, I get how a certain brand has a certain attatchment in a certain country but I don't get how this brand is seen as premium.

Would Walmart be a premium brand if I simply agreed to pay twenty quid a tin for beans? No. Is Bentley a premium brand because they were winning at Le Mans when fighter aircraft were slower than cars and the Queen has owned a few? Is Ferrari premium because they've won a lot of F1 titles over 50 years and they only make a few hundred of each model? Yes. Is a mass produced, averagly well constructed car or bike from a company that goes bust every 25 years premium? I'd say it's overpriced, other say overpriced = premium.

I'm on BMW number 5, would never buy one that hadn't done 20000 miles and laugh at their adverts. I'd buy the bike without the badges. Marketing 101 fail.

That said, can BMW sell rather than give away hats with their logo, yes.

Andy

As far as Ural is concerned I think "Dare" would be enough.

My comments weren't aimed at you, personally. You just happened to be the last to have mentioned the "M" word.

But my point remains.
You give examples and explanations of how marketing works and what it's for. I am aware of all this, if not the minutiae of how the effect is acheived. However, based on your post I think we agree that, by and large, marketing (whatever the origin) is all poo-poo when compared to the end product. BMW, Ural, Honda, all of them.

So why do we even bring it up in that most "hallowed" BMW debate if the criticisms of BMW's marketing are not specific to BMW's marketing?
:confused1:

BMW advertising stinks !
http://photos.imageevent.com/motorbi...y-Ad-Italy.jpg

+1

And while you're at it how about moving this thread from BMW Tech to Bitching Women, OOOPS doh I mean 'Which Bike' :rofl:

GSA the perfect bike
 

I've just got back from 9 weeks riding to Ciaro and back on a GSA1200.

The bike was perfect. It coped with with everything. I didn't feel uncomfortable with dropping it. It handeld missing roads and was mechanically sound.

It's easy to ride, I'm a shorty, your bum hardens up and I'll ride it round the world.

Francis

Perfect depends on the riders preference
 

In the last 12 months I've put 15000 Km on a 15 year old MZ that I bought on E-bay for £520. It's had nothing (not even put air in the tyres or adjusted the chain) except petrol and oil (due a new back tyre and an G/Box oil change when I can be bothered, I might even clean the spark plug). Goes anywhere, does anything, can be picked up one handed. :thumbup1:

Just saying :rofl:

Andy

You lazy, lazy man....:biggrin::biggrin:

...:thumbup1:

GS?? No thanks, I don't like to follow the crowd..

Thanks for reviving such an old thread to point that out. There are probably much more recent BMW-bashing threads that you could have "contributed" to...

Ignore.... just another Gorm.

Really? I was getting the impression the R12 was in that steady production state at the momement where the early niggles are close to sorted? You know the one, it's usually just before they switch to the next version. :oops2::rofl:

The MZ BTW is now over 40000 km but has finally developed an electrical problem. Should have kept riding it over the winter rather than using the outfit :(

Andy