Lights drain battery
 

Any clues where to look on an XT600E 3tb that is draining / killing the battery when the lights are on ? Getting nearly 14 V until the lights are on and then the reading starts sliding downwards.
The AA recovery man described it as the alternator breaking down under load ???

Cheers
Min

" The AA recovery man described it as the alternator breaking down under load "

He might be right; there again, he might be wrong - most of these folks out on the road nowadays with the AA/RAC are quick to get you off the highway and less inclined to fix modern, complex vehicles on the side of the road.
Generally, they are even less keen when called out to a bike, even one with old school technology! :innocent:

Anyway, for your current issue, you should explain if the engine is running when you check the symptoms; basically, provide as much relevant information as possible.

The state of charge/discharge of the battery depends on such factors.

Its probably the regtifier going bad....

Results just in.
 

Battery fully charged on trickle/load charger this morning. Didn't take voltage but it should have been 13.8v or higher.
24 miles later, no headlights being used 13.2 V

Tickover no lights :14.15 V
Headlight on : 13.2V which after a few minutes is down to 12.7V

Then I took it out twice , 2 miles commuting run 30mph 3rd gear to keep the revs up a bit;

No Lights : Start 13.42 V returned with 13.85 V

Lights : Start 13.85 V returned with 12.60 V

Same route same traffic same ....


Thanks
Min

You still know more about this bike than anyone else
 

So,
Your tests indicate that the bike is charging when the lights are off but it is not charging when the electrical load is higher, with the headlight on.

As Jens says, maybe the RR is failing.

Answers nearly always generate more questions!

Do you have a wiring diagram for this bike?
How is the condition of the wiring loom?
Are all the earth/ground connections good?
Is the battery a known quantity - a good 'un?
Have you changed anything recently?
(An electrical fault might be the result of a particular single event or a gradual deterioration in the loom or a component).

Have a read through this thread for some ideas about fault finding:-
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...charging-67094
The beginning and the end are most relevant, unless your loom is as bad as the one discussed in that thread.

You need to be logical with mechanical problems and even more logical in faults of electrical circuits.

It is relatively simple to do some resistance readings on the stator to check that it is ok. After that suspect rectifier/regulator. Use your manual to find the readings you should get.

You don't have supper bright headlight globes do you? Nor driving lights?

Sounds like the regulator/rectifier is dying and cannot keep up with the load if the lights are on.

What is the charging voltage both with light off and light on, idle and higher speed. It should keep the voltage above 13.5 under load if working correctly and perhaps more.

See above for the voltage readings. I will go through the Electrex fault finding found here....

http://www.electrosport.com/media/pd...ng-diagram.pdf

No big headlights, will whip the rack off and check RR earth etc under the tailpiece.

speak y'all Tuesday

Thanks
Min

It's hard to beat a flow chart for a dose of logic; nice find.
Enjoy!

So I went to Page B after doing the START page and at the bottom of B where it says about the AC voltage out of the stator and three readings not being equal. Two of the readings were around the 70V level and one was 2V ! So what I am going to check next is the wiring closer to the stator to check for continuity to the three way block that goes to the RR.
Makes sense to me and is looking more like the stator according to the flow chart.

Min

Yep,if you lose one of the 3 phases, you are at 2/3's capacity. Good find. I hope you find a wire problem and not the actual stator...

Use a multimeter with continuity test to check your stator!

Disconnect behind the left seat cover and check all three pins coming from the stator have continuity between them all!

Next, check each pin with a good frame ground point! It can NOT have any continuity!

If these test are good, it's just the regulator/rectifier gone bad. IF not, you need a new stator or get yours rewound!

I had the exact same problem and it was actually both the stator and the reg/rectifier gone bad!


Vando :thumbup1:

No continuity with one of the wires either at the connector or bared wire down at the starter motor area . So a rotor is winging its way from Electrex . Now what are the top tips / necesary tools and gaskets for replacing it ?
Apart from a dry day !

Thanks again
Min

Test the new stator before installation! It could be faulty when you get it and rather than find out after you have put it in, do test it first!!!

If you have not ordered any gaskets with the stator then get some silastic (RTV732 or equivalent) and use that in-conjunction with the old gaskets to ensure a seal.

A 'dry day' can be fabricated using a tent fly - rig it over the top of the bike.

Once you have everything back together ... test the electrical system to ensure that it is all working .. rectifier, regulator, battery ...

I guess I should have asked, also, do you have a workshop manual?

I've had the side cover off the generator of a TTR600 (it has the same engine, more or less) but I didn't change the stator.
What I do remember is:-
1. There is oil in there - I think I tipped the bike over on its' side to stop it running out, but I may have drained it (someone else can add to this point).
2. I definitely got a new paper gasket for that cover on the basis that they are one-use only and it is a PITA to put it all back together to then find that there is oil leaking/weeping.

Don't forget it MAY be a simple knackered battery!

I had exactly the same problem with one of mine - went through the obvious (alternator, coil, reg, etc) above and problem still present.

The nearly new battery was fading under load.

Replaced it with a better German battery and problem sorted.

I have the pdf manual thanks.
Drain oil, remove cover, remove stator bish bash bosh job done . When the gasket arrives.
Bad battery would not give the dodgy resistance readings across the stator.
I can put my gazebo up in the back yard for a bit of cover . that's what I bought it for. 8 foot wide yard. 8 foot wide gazebo with fence walls !!

Let you know the results next week.

Min

yes, it's the stator..

1-Put the bike on it's side remove the small e-start motor cover as there is ONE bolt in there that you need to take out and can only access from there!

2-Remove the stator coveruse a screwdriver that fits perfectly on the bolts or you will strip them!

3-If the gasket is damaged, replace it with a new one! I also used a very thin layer of liquidgasket on both engine part and stator cover!
If you put some on the engine part, it will hold the new gasket perfectly in place when you put the stator cover back on!

4- When you're putting the stator cover back on, be careful not to crush the neutral cable between the engine part and the stator cover!

Keep in mind that the regulator/rectifier might also be faulty, so check it out!
And the battery is probably wasted aswell.... get an AGM battery or one of those Li-on/Lipo whatever batteries: Lithium Ionen Batterie Yamaha XT 600 E '90 '03 HJTX9 FP | eBay

Vando ;)

I agree with Jens - possibly the Rectifier/Regulator. I had the same problem on my 4pt. I put a new Rectifier on and now its fine, worth trying first as its a cheap and easy fix costing from about £15.

Dan

Tested the new stator and compared it to the one still in the bike . It is the stator going by the multimeter.

Thanks for all your replies,
Min

theoneandonlymin don't forget to follow the steps I mentioned in order to replace the stator and get it right at the first try ;)

Hi,
If it helps I had exactly the same problem on my 43f........rev the bike and lights dim and battery was flat as a witches t*t
Changed the reg. rectifier and after 6 weeks battery charges and all electrics work.
I bought mine from a company in US called caltric.....super service.
Mark

How are you getting on??
 

When used correctly multimeters tell the truth that is invisible to the naked eye. :thumbup1:
The logic/flow diagram for fault finding assists of course.

Just poking about in the internet, I came upon this, which collaborates your flow chart:-
Must-do Tips BEFORE installing a Rectifier/Regulator
Check the AC output of the stator
Check that the stator is not grounded.
Replace any burned or corroded connectors on stator & rec/reg
Check & repair any melted wiring
Use hi-Temp Dielectric grease on all connectors

found here:-
http://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/...ier-regulators

No! I've already told him how to check for a faulty stator and he found it!
It only takes two steps to check XT for a faulty stator and I mention them in one of my previous posts!

And from what he tested, one phase of the three phases is faulty!
Yes, the regulator/rectifier COULD also be faulty and it is also possible to check if it is good or not with a digital multimeter.

Grrrrrrrrrrr
 

A few days later than anticipated but wish that I had a chance last week.
Drain oil , cover off , remove stator, clipped the wires to aid removal . The screw holding the wire shield was that tight the head sheared off ! Never mind.
Put the old rotor beside the new. Wrong size !!!!
New stator : 115mmx54mm
Old stator : 103mm x 42mm
Of course Electrex is shut for the weekend.
This one is the same size ;
Electrex World - Motorcycle electrical parts for Japanese, European & British bikes | Electrex World Ltd G73
Is this correct or do I wait for them to tell me on Monday???
I was sent a G45 .
At least I have a few spare days to sort it.

Secondly when I took the cover off there was an O ring loose inside the flywheel. Not mashed up. There was one on the cover as well where it should be. Where did it come from ?

Min

Im pretty sure the boltholes for the xtz660 doesnt match the xt600 :(

I seem to recall I had both a xt600 and a xtz660 stator on my table at the same time, they looked very simular, but wasnt identical.

The xtz660 would be awesome though, theyre about 280W.

This reminds me of an old saying in woodwork/joinery: - measure twice, cut once.

Never mind, progress consists of two steps forward and one backward, per day.

Wemoto.com seem to sell the G73 for the XT . 103x42x16

Does this definitely mean that when I speak to Electrex tomorrow it is definitely what I need ?

Min

Call Electrex and tell them the measurements of your stator, how many cables and the plug it comes with and they should exchange that one...

Thanks,
I have just emailed them and it should be no problem.
Whilst I had a miute I looked at the wiring coming out of the stator. In behind the heatproofing one wire was burnt through and detached and another was suffering a wee bit. Ah well out with the soldering iron. Soldered 3 new wires onto the solid parts coming out of the stator.
Out with the meter onto the new tails
1.2 1.2 and 1.2 !!!!!

Flipping heck, do I throw it back in this afternoon or is it not to be trusted ??
Give it a try maybe that is what I reckon.
In fact I am just heading down to do that now.

What about the mystery O ring that was inside the flywheel ??? Just noticed on the workshop manual where it is from.

Min

I don't know.. I thought the stock stator, all the wiring was covered with a special varnish to avoid conducting/jumping around electricity (including the wire leads where they're soldered at..

so I bit the bullet and went at it with my soldering iron and heat shrink.

14.2 V

13.7 V with lights on and no sliding down the output like before.

the new stator is paid for so I will order up another gasket and wait......

Thanks for everyone's help and ears to bend

theoneandonlymin
x

That's pretty much how I recall the electrical wiring inside the generator cover; being covered in swirling oil, constantly, it is protected with some kind of coating that does look like varnish.
Come to think of it, isn't there a different, "braided", type of insulation on the wiring that connects to the stator?

Spoke to Electrex today who say that my repair should work fine . The varnish is to protect the copper wire . I heat shrunk the soldered connection to protect it . The woven sheath seems to protect the wires but is open at either end .
After the daily commute it is still charging.

Min

Cool! :) you still keeping the spare stator just in case yes?!

Any words about being able to use the xtz660 one? :D

Could you verify that your meassures is the same as the G73 for xtz660?

Outer Diameter: 103mm
Inner diameter: 42mm
Thickness through hole: 14mm

Not keeping it as a spare as it doesn't fit . Will return it and if I need the correct one in the future it is only a day away.

Lisa at Electrex 01491682369 was very helpful and said that the G73 is the one for me. Can't confirm about the fitment for the xtz660 but the sizes are correct.
Speak to her and and she will give you all the options.
Looking at wemoto.com electrx stators for your bike I can see where the uncertainty comes from.

Regards
Min

Anyone know the outputof this aftermarked stator, how many W?

Oh.. I thought you were returning that wrong one and they'd send you a the correct one...


"watts" the matter Jens, you want to add more gadgets? :P

Yeah, a boy's gotta have gadgets :scooter:

Hi, I am having similar problems with my '89 tenere. I think it is the rectifier / regulator (doesn't produce the correct voltage under load) and maybe also the battery (doesn't hold much charge). I would appreciate if someone could confirm my diagnosis though or suggest more tests I could do.

Bike electrics: standard low beam, rear, and brake lights. Dual hi beam for 120w of forward lighting. Heated handgrips at around 25w. I know this puts me at around 170w at night, which is the rated capacity (12Ax14V=168W) of the charging system.

Symptoms: bike will usually not start. While riding, forward lights visibly dim when I apply the brake.

Ruled out: starter motor - the bike will always jump start.

Suspect: charging system - lights dimming; if I ride for a while without headlights, the bike will usually start next time.

So, I did some standard tests:
- checked continuity between regulator and battery, low (<1ohm) resistance) on both positive and negative.

- Checked resistance of stator coils. Low (~1ohm resistance) on all three, no connection to ground.

- Checked for voltage drops between rr and battery with bike idling and no load. Nothing significant.

- measured voltage across the battery terminals for various load conditions.
Idle, no load: 14.5V
Idle, lo beam: 14.0V
Idle, hi beam + heat + brakes: 10.7V (and dropping as the battery discharged)
3000rpm, hi beam + heat + brakes: 9.8V (dropping)
3000rpm, hi beam + heat: 11.0V

- measured open circuit voltage of stator windings. All measure around 22v at idle, 55v at 3000rpm.

Then I decided to see under what conditions my battery is charging and under which it is discharging. Unfortunately my multimeter is unable to measure current (came with a 10A fuse and a 5A solder track... brilliant). But I can figure out whether the battery is charging or discharging by measuring the voltage across my fuse (in millivolts). I found:
- idling or revving with the lights off, there is a small current charging the battery. (3 - 5mV across fuse)
- with just the low beams, the battery charges slowly. (0 - 3mV across fuse)
- with low beams and heated handgrips (daytime riding) the battery neither charges nor discharges.
- with hi beams, heated handgrips, and brake light on, the battery is discharging quite rapidly - I estimate around 4 - 8A if the bike is idling, or 2A if revving.

I know these tests could be better - use a multimeter that can accurately measure current; use a good, charged battery, but I am currently travelling (in turkey) and everything is more difficult and expensive/wasteful than it would be at home.

So, in the next few days I plan to get the regulator / rectifier replaced or repaired then see if I need a new battery. I guess one other thing that interests me is if I need to be concerned about my current draw and whether it is possible to increase it.

Cheers,

Barry

General guide

When the electrical system is operating normally the battery will not be charging nor discharging! This is because the battery is fully charged and the bike is 'running' off the alternator. To get to this state the battery must be recharged to make up for the large discharge of the stater motor, this may take 15 minutes. So brief measurements of the battery current won't tell you much.

The voltage readings tell a lot more .. anything less than 13 volts is bad when the bike is running. Less than 12 is untenable and you need to instantly reduce the electrical load.

The battery should sit at 13 volts or more for say 15 minutes before you shut the bike down - this ensures you have some charge in the battery to start the bike next time. :scooter:

-----------------------------------------
Barry
Did the bike carry this electrical load at some previous time? Or have you just made the changes and found this problem? :confused1:

This tells us that

1) the bike can do it
OR
2) the bike may not do it .. simply too much load.

-------------------------------
You certainly cannot increase your present electrical load (under present conditions)! You would be well advised to actually reduce it! To start with the dual high beam - make it single, or keep to low beam.

For wiring faults; Check the wires and connectors ... for heat - use your hands to feel for it .. where it is warm you have a problem ... do this with your high electrical load on. The places you want to check are from the alternator to the battery - around the rectifier/regulator is a good place to start. Try not to burn yourself :funmeterno:

Good luck.

Youre using way too much current with the dual highbeam, simple as that.

Agree. You need to switch to LED Lights as spots and a much lower wattage main beam

Yeah, I thought that the dual hi beams may be the problem. Still tryin to chase down an ammeter to confirm my suspicions that I'm trying to draw too much. Ive tried a different regulator and the problem still exists, but I'm not convinced the new regulator is any good (language barriers can be a real bitch when trying to do something very specific).

Warin - I bought the bike wired with dual hi beams so you would think it'd handle it. But then again, one of the previous owners has also wired a jump point on the outside of the bike, so it probably has had electrical issues b the past.

The reson I thought it important to check the current draw from the batter is that I believe the bike should never be using the batter while the engine is running, regardless of the state of charge of the battery. Any such condition indicates that the charging system is not providing enough power to run all the electrics.

When the engine is at low speed (idle) the battery will be providing some power, more if you have stop light on, more if you have indicators on, and much more if you have the headlights on. At idle the alternator is at minimum power and may only just provide power for your ignition system. :(

As the engine speed increases the alternator power increases too, but it is not a linear relationship. See the Car and Deep Cycle Battery FAQ, Battery Manufacturers and Brand Names List, and for info (section 5).

From your given info I suspect the dual hi beam was added by an over enthusiastic owner .. who only used it for short periods of time .. or who realized he had a problem and sold it off. :thumbdown:

Remove the dual high beam

At idle the bike should charge fine with a normal 60/65w headlight, and 5w rear, and all the instruments working......Mine does, i've got a voltmeter fitted to the bike.

Again....Turn of one of the front lights, and you should be good to go.

You can always save a few watts if you get a BAY15D SMD bulb for your rear stop/brake lights!

It WAS the law. That law has been repealed as the statistical results said it made no difference. So you can now turn your headlight off in Australia. But some motorcycle manufactures are not equipping their bikes with the switch... makes it common with some other markets who also don't have a headlight switch. But you can legal turn the headlight off, you just need a way of doing it.

Faulty wiring! I realised that I had checked that there was no voltage drop between the regulator and battery, but with no load and a bad battery! Checking again under full load and with a new battery, I found almost 1 volt drop from the regulator to the battery. So I cleaned all the contacts, added solder to the joints, thickened the wire and shortened the amount of wire between the regulator and battery (all on +ve side). Now it'll maintain 14.4V with normal lights, and 12.9V with the dual hi beam, which is not ideal but at least should not drain the battery. To save power I got some of those delivery scooter hand covers so hopefully I won't need the heated handgrips as much (although I am loath to make my tenere wear them, I think it's better to look like a pizza delivery bike than always ask for a jump)

Thanks for the help, I'll post here again after testing the viability of the dual hi beams on a bit of a ride.

12.9 won't damage the battery in the short term. But you'll want to run it higher 10 to 15 minutes before your stop to have enough energy to start the bike the next morning. As you'll probably want to run at a slower speed with the light reduction that will cool the motor too, a good thing to do.

Some led's for the instrumentlight, and the rearlight should save up some extra wattage to get the voltage over 13v.

I'd still use an on/off switch so you could turn of one of the frontbeams, when its not really needed. Or perhaps change one of them for a "smaller" one in the 30-50w area, it should really help :)

The saving is very small when compared to the overall power.

The instrument lights are 3 watts each, the tail light is 5 watts .. so if LEDs save half and you have two instrument lights you'd save some 7.5 watts out of some 168 watts ... less than 5% saving.

LED's save way more than half, they use well under 1w each.

Theres the 2 bulbs for the indicators, and the rear/brake-light. Theres also the parking light. He could change the neutrallight and the high beam indicator, eventhough they're not on much.

He's running right on the egde, im sure the charging system would be thankfull for an additional 10w "buffer"

Well, I took it for a ride, mostly on hi beam except when I was too high (cold) and had to turn the heated handgrips on. Left with the battery at 12.86, returned and it was up to 13.05. So it looks like the problem is prett much solved. I like the idea of switching out to LED where I can, as you say a bit of a buffer would be a good thing, but I may put that off for a while until I have a good workspace for 'nice to have' items.

Quick question about the LEDs - do drop in replacement bulbs for the dedicated hi beam projector exist? I remember doing a bit of research a few years ago and found that the throw pattern would be useless. Anyone know of a change to this situation?

There are H4 SMD bulbs but they are expensive (around 50€ if you can find them cheap) and the maximum I've found had only 300lumen...

The only way you'll save some real wattage is if you go with HID ballasts and bulbs! check them out!

If I had the spare cash right now I'd get an HID projector lens preferably with a 3" diameter lens and with an H1 4300K 55w bulb!

In the XT600E stock headlight you can only fit a 2.5" projector lens with a proprietary bulb (unless you hack the sh*t out of your headlight reflector!

BAY15D SMD rear brake light 1.5W: (stock is 21W brake light and 5W rear "presence" light)

1157 BAY15D 18 SMD 5050 Pure White Tail Turn Signal 18 LED Car Light Bulb Lamp | eBay


You can also go with LED turn signals/blinkers whatever you wanna call it!

Vando ;)

Its actually only running light in the back that is worth mention here, turn signal and brake light is on so short of a time on that there is no point counting them here.. Original there is 55W headlight bulb, buy HID 35W then you really save power.

HID's is illegal many places, and the lightpattern in a stock reflector sux. I wouldn't call it an option. :innocent:

Dont agree, the pattern isnt much different from stock. And with 35W no one will tell the difference from stock. The rules about HID on motorcycle i dont know about, if the light strength is about the same as stock and colour is same i cant see any problem. Have you tried HID on your bike?

Yeb, tried it. Theres a lot of "glare"/light that doesnt hit the road. Try driving down a narrow road, and see how much light os thrown uo and to the sides, which will blind oncoming drivers.

My bike has H4 bulb, high and lowbeam in one bulb. The solution with the HID is to move the bulb in and out of the reflector. But mine had a small rattle, which made the lights seem like it blinked, if you looked carefully.

My buddy had xenon on his ktm lc4, it sucked driving in front of him, because his lights were all over my mirrors.

Try to lend your xenon-equipped bike to a mate at night, and make him drive past you when you sit in a car (or have your head at similar height)

I do however have a 55w xenonkit build in a small fog light as my helmet light for offroad at night.....Which is just perfect for my use of it.

Osram nightbreaker with relays on the bike. Xenon on the helmet on the ground:
http://www.tenere.dk/forumnew/uploads/987/DSC03667.JPG

Here you compare it with a 8000k, i recon with 4000k that you wont have the same problem. Anyway, if you choose between no power on bike and HID, i choose HID.

It was listed as a 4000k or 4300k (cant remember) the foglight has slightly blue-tinted glass.

I was just trying to show than xenon can be very usefull, under the right circumstances.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/839/3s4w.jpg

And when we are talking about lights, all new cars with xenon makes mirror looking to a hell.