Definitive bike choice
 

Im doing a Pan America trip and going nuts with bike choice. Iv shortlisted a few so please tell me what you think.

I know this has been done to death so apologies.

I have a budget of about £2500-£3000 for the bike. Options are:

Yamaham XT600E : Cheap, reliable & trustworthy but underpowered & not great handling (I own one now)

Kawasaki KLR: Same as above but even worse handling

Transalp: Tell me about it ?

Dominator: Tell me about it ? I hear its kinda fragile and drops valves, burns oil etc

BMW F650: Seems popular but I hear alot of reliabilty issues and its expensive

Africa twin: Iv had 2 but they're getting rare and rather big & heavy

KTM Adventure: Unreliable & impossible to get parts ?

Honda XR650L: Seems perfect but subrame is weak and very rare (import)

Honda XR650R: Great but subrame made of chocolate and very vibey (I had one)

The big GS's and KTM's dont really interest me. I dont want to look like a rich gringo plus they cost too much.

Are you going to bring it over or buy in the USA ?

Get the KLR and you'll be happy. That was easy, eh? :)

Buy a new one in the states (£2,500) & kit it out there, too. You've left the DR650 off your list - that'd be the other bike I'd consider for doing my SA trip again.

Have fun,
James

The KLR was at the bottom of my list ;) Popular but kinda lame aint it ?

The plan is to buy and prep in the Uk and fly it over. I considered buying in the USA but i cant really be bothered landing without a bike and having to make a base to search and prep for a bike.

I wanna ride out of the airport :)

Then bring your XT .

Hi Ted,

The KLR's on my short list. There's a crap load of relatively inexpensive stuff on this side of the pond to make it a reasonably well handling and an immensely reliable overlander.

Cheers
Al

you forgot one,
how about a real basic easy to fix at the side of the road with minimal tools, tour all day at 65mph and return 80 mpg and remarkably reliable if you prep it properly before you go.cheap tyres, cheap chain sprockets etc and never likely to get nicked?
don't laff - a royal enfield 500.

If you not in a hurry might work out, but I think your 65mph all day is slightly optimistic. more like 50-60 from memory . for about £150 you can up the fuel tank to 20 litres from the 14.5 that comes standard. This gives an easy 300 mile range.

If you purchased a KLR 650 in the UK wouldn't it be a C model, not the A model sold in North America? I've never ridden, or even seen, a C model but from what I've read they are much inferior to the A model as an adventure bike (see Chris Scott's "Adventure Motorcycling Handbook" for comments on the two).

I must disagree with your statement that the KLR handles poorly if you mean the
A model. I have two friends who are ex road racers and ride theirs incredibly quickly and often comment on how well they handle for the type of bike that they are.

IMHO, the KLR 650A is an excellent adventure bike - reliable, handles all types of surfaces and terrain well, simple and easy to work on and repair, pleasant to ride for a single cylinder dual sport bike, and inexpensive to purchase. They do need a few upgrades for improvement in reliability and performance but there is a large aftermarket for this here in the US and the finished bike still won't be costly. I would recommend not exceeding the bikes GVWR or using it for two up adventure riding.

After much mental agonizing about it I chose a KLR for my rtw ride, had no problems with it whatsoever except for an aftermarket chain breaking, and would make the same choice again. Just my 2 cents worth.

Mike
Idaho
www.rtwrider.net

Most trips are on asphalt or dirt roads how about a Susuki DL 650?

I agree with Surf Dude. If you don't plan a lot of technical dirt exploration then the DL650 could work. It handles like a sport bike, is faster than anything on your list, tough as nails and easy to load up. Gets over 50 mpg and can cruise at 80 mph and is practically maintenance free. It will do dirt roads fine, just slow down a tad and avoid half meter deep pot holes.

You'd save a bundle buying it in USA. Same goes for KLR, DR650, XR650L. All decent choice. In this part of the world the KLR is King. I just spent the day yesterday working with two young lads from New Zealand who've bought near new KLR's and I gave a hand kitting them out and doing a bit of service.
They spent about $3000 per bike. Another $500 for bits, tires, riding gear. They head south on Saturday.

You could pre-arrange a sale with a dealer (in, say L.A.). Pre pay it so Title is waiting when you arrive. Either have dealer order after market kit ahead or bring it with. (cheaper if you buy here...due to incredibly weak Dollar vs. Pound) But hey, its only money. Your choice. You can do it all online and have the stuff sent to the shop or ask the dealer to order it and make sure you get
near online prices.

My guess is you could buy a set up new bike here for what you'll pay for a good low mileage used bike in the UK. Then you've got $1200 (700 UKP) or so worth of air freight charges on top of that. 700 pounds will see you right in Mexico for a month or more.

You could set up a deal where the dealer meets you at the airport, takes you to his shop, you load on your crap and go. In fact, there is a shop in LA that specializes in doing just that. Honda-Suzuki place, don't remember name.

Hey Ted, you've been screwing around asking about bikes and travel for over a year.....are you ever gonna take off?

Cheers and good luck....if you ever make out of the UK! :eek3:

Patrick:scooter:

Dont I know it mate, dont I know it.

I was meant to set off in September 06 for South America but my partner pulled out at the very last minute with no warning (nice). It put things on hold for a few months (financially). In that few months I was seeing a lady who screwed me out of 2 grand (smashed up my flat and valuables) so that really set me back.

Instead of 3 months in South America I thought **** IT, i might as well do the whole Americas for 6-12 months so having to save save which is hard when your paying back debts too :(

Fear not... iv got the plan in gear and nothing is spoiling it now ! Iv already got a prepped an XT600E so im probably just going to use that. Im just considering alternative as iv got over a year till i depart.

I like the look of the DR650 so gonna research that a little too.

Ted
Just be thankful she didn't boil your bunny... See you on the road. Stephan

Do It In Th USA
 

Your nuts not to-

Hypothetically speaking here is how the scenario could work—

I know of a 2004 KLR650 with 2500 +/- miles on it that can be had 1650 GBP. Fly to the states pick up the bike call happytrails order a set of panniers and rack for 400GBP have them sent to your campsite/ hotel what ever and you are done and on your way in less than 10 days. Total investment 2050 GBP plus airfare and you are on your way.

Believe it or not there are any number of yanks that will be more than happy to assist you in the accusation and outfit of a bike here in the states. I am one of them. Happy to help in anyway from this side of the pond. Seriously, save the cash for the trip. You will be surprised how easily and economically you could put together a bike here.

I'm looking for a KLR. Is that a reasonable price for an 04 with 2500 miles.
$3200+/-. Have you seen the bike you are referrring to?

eek!
 

:eek3:
Gosh Ted! Is that the same girl that the one who went off to Greece without you and had a bit of sex on the side?!!! I hope it's the same, otherwise you really are unlucky in love!

Your life has more twists and turns than an Episod of EastEnders! Maybe you should start a blog :biggrin3:

I wish you good luck for the future and maybe see you somewhere in South America!

yup..the very same !!

Never a dull moment in my life is there :biggrin: I always have fun storys for the camp fire though lol

I have not personally seen the bike but here is the dialog that goes on about it and a couple pics http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194682

hmmm you got me thinking now.

Would there be any trouble for me to buy a bike and register a bike in the US as a none US citizen and also be able to obtain (neccessary) 3rd party insurance for US and canada.

Im warming to the idea but still skeptical about not prepping my own bike. Savings are black and white though.. save £1500 in return shipping plus probably £1000 in bike cost and prep.

Iv never even seen a KLR in the flesh and am quite keen on my XT :eek2:

A mate from OZ did it like this. Bought a KLR sight unseen, had it dropped off at a local Kawi dealer for a general check up and service. He then went about ordering bits and had them shipped to the dealer. The dealer charged whatever their hourly rate is to install the rack, boxes, doohicky, sub frame upgrade and a few other little items.

For insurance and the registration, no problem he used the dealers addy.

The alternative is to find someone on this board or the advrider.com board or some such similar thing and have them assist. I would be happy to help for the short term, but I will actually be homeless by choice come the begining of March. Just bought a cheap DR650 outfitting now and off I go. Will be riding out to the west coast, jumping a plane to OZ for a couple months, then when I return its off for South America via Mexico and Central.

What are your plans? Time Frame?

If you buy in USA/Canada you also have to consider what you will do with the bike when you finish in SA. Selling it locally might not be easy/legal. Sending it home to sell will cost shipping and import taxes.

Hello from an ex-longtime-lurker
 

G'day...
I am interested in finding out a bit more about this topic as I am planning to head to Sth America in early 09 and had been thinking about selling my Aprilia road bike now so that i can start kitting out a ADV bike. I will be going with my wife (well she will be by then) so it needs to carry the two of us and gear so i had been thinking about a larger bike than a 650.
If i bought a bike in the US then can i register it without an address, ship it to Sth America and ride it around. Then what? Ship it back to the US for sale? or can i ship it to the UK and register it (as that is where we are heading to live after Sth Am).
Am i better off buying one in Sth America.. riding it around then selling it?

I'm confused... does anyone know someone that has done the above? :confused1:

Best do some research on these topics here. Lots of threads by riders coming to the USA buying a bike and heading south. Read Read Read.

Best to ride the bike from the USA to S. America. Shipping expensive. After that is anyone's guess. No idea about importing bike to the UK. Shouldn't be a problem, keep your US plate, bring it in as a tourist bike.

Yes, you can register the bike to you in the US but you will need an address.
Not a problem.

There are two Kiwi's I've helped out getting bikes. Contact them from their web site.
The Road to Rio.

Patrick:scooter:

Hi,

I`m not sure if people are still reading this thread but as I`m still getting hits on the website I think it`s worth contributing.

Purchasing a bike and registering in California was very easy. You just need an in-state address. I bought a 49 state bike but registered it in California without hassle. One DMV told me I had the incorrect emissions sticker, the next one down the road had no problem. I am confident I was in the right, as there`s no emissions check for motorcycles, the sticker shouldn´t be relevant. Anyway, pragmatism won on the day.

It cost us a lot of time looking for bikes that were suitable. A good reliable bike was for sale that I passed on price over a few hundred dollars which I would`ve earned back in lack of worry, hassle, costs etc.

Not sure how selling the bikes will get on, will be sure to report.

Buy one in Boise, Idaho. Have the seller leave it at Happy Trails and have them prep it for you. PO on my KLR did this and then rode to Baja. HT is great and has all you need to prep the bike.

BTW, since the release of the new '08 design KLRs are selling CHEAP. I routinely see '03 and '04 w/ decent upgrades for $3500. Since they're all the same though back to mid-96 get an older one for $2k or so, have it outfitted and RIDE. :scooter:

All the bikes you've listed sound like great bikes on paper BUT...
Personally, I would take bike that you are familiar with, do the necessary pre-trip maintenance on it before hand, and carry a few spare parts that experience normal wear and tear.
You can acquire the skills to handle rougher terrain if you're patient with that bike. THe converse unfortunately isn't always the case.
HTH...

PS Consider buying the bike in the US...its a lot cheaper considering the Xchange rate these days and the cost of NOT shipping a bike over...damn Euro!

Good point regards going with the bike you know well. Saves the learning curve time I guess.

Unfortuneatley his current ride is an XT600. The XT has not been imported to the US since 1990. I think Ted said he owned a XR-XR-L Honda as well, plenty of those for sale here, new or used. I'd go with the XR-L for its comfort, simplicity and better cargo carrying ability.

Patrick:scooter:

buy in the US
 

The exchange rate at the moment means anything in the US is a next to nowt.
XT600 would be good but if going through just the US then I'd get a HOG, perfect and no doubt in abundance 2nd hand.
If off road i'd go for the KLR - crap but there still popular over there, then again you need to spend the same again sorting it out to get to a level on par with anything else.

Translap- perfect bike just get one although shipping is expensive due to weight. get the 650 and yes you ca get large tanks for them. Dommie way too vibey, all i can say is just try one for 1 hour....

An example:

Suzuki v-Strom dl650 USA retail $6700 usd

UK retail $10,600 usd

from the USA & UK websites

I've found it to be similar with most bikes. That $5000 will get you a lot of mods and vacation money. I can't imagine buying in the UK & shipping to the states, unless you absolutely want something unavailable here like a transalp.

sailwesterley got me thinking...
 

I'm not sure how to contact sailwesterley direct (not enough replies for pm, yet). Anyway, i've been umming and ahhing about the old "non-us buying bike there and selling" conundrum for a few weeks now and decided not to bother as there are too many variables to go wrong there with the legalities and scuppering the trip before it starts. But now it appears people ARE doing it no probs. Main prob seems to me to be the lack of a choice of suitable s/h bikes - dual-sport in general (checked BC and some Calif sites), and that old bugbear of an address. I mailed some dealerships and although they're eager to sell me kit when i press about registering them they never reply back... hmmm. All i want is a DR/KLR-type bike for 3-4000$ (us/can, whatever), that i can register and insure. I suspect this is going to rumble on... confused!

Think it through make money on both ends
 

Thinking outside the box, buy a "done up" german Africa Twin (cheap), ride it to the UK, (test ride) Get it serviced. Then export it to the states, as you are currently doing, and sell it over there. They are begging for Africa Twins.

You (or the buyer) will have to pay Tax and import duty... urghh

Otherwise just "wing it": Buy a cheapie on line, and have it sent to the dealer to be serviced, along with a bunch of bits and bobs then sell it when you leave.

(Alternatively, there are some US bikes on the Hubb that are complete you could buy)

Remember, life is an adventure, I comprehensively disagree with the ethos that you should be familiar with the bike before you ride it.

You will never learn/develop.

You have an idea what type of bike you want, some chaps here will give you a better indication: Buy one, learn to ride it there, thats got to be the purpose of an adventure. Sure you will experience hardship, but thats the point.

Ideal vehicle for Nairobi to Cape Town? Well I've done it in a 700cc Suzuki jeep, A '72 Landrover, a defender, a Bedford MJ, and a Rangerover, guess what they all took a beating and the African roads won!

Expert advice on bikes and adventure from a frickin' Jeep guy!:scared: Now that's funny!:clown: Your Jeep "adventure" might be a bit different to a bike "Adventure". That's OK, just kidding...all advice is good....now can I borrow yer tow rope and a bit of petrol from one of those Jerry cans?:welcome:
Cold Beer!! You've got Cold Beer in there!! Oh yes, nice Jeep mate! :cool4:

You could bring an Africa Twin to the US as a tourist (about $1200 to $1500 shipping) you can ride around indefinitley...but if you sell it, the new owner can not register it in the USA...or at least not without a major hassle. Actually, with the latest laws regards EPA, I don't believe there is any way at all to register a foriegn bike in the US. They've pretty much shut the door.

But it's true, the Africa is worth a small fortune in the USA. Like in the 6 to $8000 USD range for a nice one a few years old. Even an old one will bring four to six grand USD. But the Wee Strom has now pretty much supplanted the mythology regards the old Africa Twin...so you better hurry.

A new owner could change ownership to his name keeping a Euro plate. If the buyer were leaving the US, then this would be OK.

The thing you are missing is that it takes some time to get your new title once you buy a US bike. True whether buying new or used, from a dealer or private party.

If you buy it in advance, sight unseen online, the dealer can do the title transfer for you and have your title ready to go when you arrive. You can buy a bike by just showing up and ride away that minute (using temp title or current title in sellers name). Once a new title is applied for it takes (depending on state) from 3 weeks to 6 weeks. Title could be forwarded to you via Fed Ex. You can use temp title for Mexico, no idea about further south. So there are a couple ways to go here. Really not hard to do. Insurance I"m not sure about.

BTW, there are hundreds of great, near perfect dual sport bikes all over the US. Many KLR's are already set up and good to go RTW. Many right here in San Fran Bay Area. Cheap, nearly new dual sports are common. Mostly DR650's, XR650L's and KLR's. Also KTM's, Husqvarna, MZ and more. Craig's List is your best source. It's all I use to find and sell bikes.

Patrick:scooter:

Ultimate bike!
 

I don´t think there is an ultimate choice. It very much depends of what you plan to do, and even so maybe it will be ok for tarmac and not so good for trail and vice versa! I can only talk about my experience.
I started my trip over 2 montsh ago now, on a BMW F650GS.
FOr south america you do not need a 650 engine. Most speed you can do in average will be 50mph if lucky! On tarmac the bike is great. The problem comes off-road. The bike, fully loaded with alu panniers is way too heavy for me, and too tall too which does not help. Every time I have to stop fast on trails, I will put my food down, find no ground, the bike will wobble, and I´ll drop it.

I should have gone for a small 250 or 350 traily bike like a honda serow! I regret my choice. WIth Bolivia looming round the corner I fear I will destroy bike, panniers and frame before I even reach the Salar! And no I don´t carry loads of luggage. Total weight of luggages is 30 kilos which in my opinion, with spares, tools and camping gear, is not too bad.
Ah and don´t even get me started on repairing such big bikes in countries were they only got max 250cc jap bikes!

Ahhh Maria, but will people listen? Can I use this as a quote to all the people agonising over a GS1200 or 990 KTM or........? A small bike will go ANYwhere a big bike will go, but a big bike can't go where a small bike can. And that can include up the steps into your guesthouse front door. I think there is a bit of people choosing with their ego and not their heads in there as well.
And how many people would have said that your GS650 was a small bike back home before you left? I have heard lots of good things about the Kawasaki Super Sherpa too, if you can get a bigger fuel tank I think it has a great future as a travellers bike
2003 Kawasaki KL250-G7 Super Sherpa specifications and pictures

Kind regards

Nigel in NZ

Sorry to hear that Maria, I have just got shut of my f650 for that exact
same reason. My advice would be sell it -- buy a cheaper smaller bike
and spend the rest that's left over on treats for yourself ;)

Maria,
Save the day - get the saddle sculpted and reduced in height as much as you can bare and see if you can get a bit of height added to the soles/heels of whatever boots you use to ride.
Then slide forward and off the seat to whichever side of the bike you expect to put your foot down (I guess you know all this already but it is never too late even if you have been out there for two months).
After that, keep hanging on to those bars and "wrestling" with the balance of the bike - don't ever give up on it (until it is really decked)!!

That will be a Yam Serow BTW

Good luck,

and eating while riding can't be helping matters ;)


:D

Very well spotted scrubs!!!:thumbup1:

That's a very brave admission Maria. So I guess Lois has it right?

Small bikes is what I'm constantly preaching to macho guys for riding off road. I've seen plenty of tough guys come into dirt riding, think they need big power...they buy a 650 to start, and in a year after lots of tears, crashes and injuries, they sell if off and never come back to a dirt bike. Shame. Doesn't have to be that way.

Listen, since you're down there and changing bikes is probably NOT in the cards....why not let's all figure out how to make your bike better for you.

First off....you're partner's gonna have to step up and take on some of your load...or maybe ditch the hair dryer and liter bottle of your fav shampoo!? :p

To me, 30 kgs. is quite a bit. I would have a hard look at your gear. Are you really camping all that much?

OR...have you thought of selling off your Alu hard bags/racks and going to soft bags? That would lose about 10kgs. 10kgs. is HUGE.

But the main thing that I would look at is lowering the bike. Like one inch at least, maybe a bit more depending on how tall (or short?) you are.

Dog Bones
The rear link "Dog Bones" can be shortened (I think...or is it lengthened?)
anyway...whichever.This should allow you to lower the rear end by an inch or more easily. Yes, you will have a bit less ground clearance but unless you are riding aggressively off road, you will never miss it.

You need to keep the bike balanced...so that means the front has to come down an equal (or near equal) amount too. Do this by simply raising the fork tubes up in the triple clamps by about one inch. Easy to do: loosen triple clamp bolts, raise tubes equally left and right. Do not over tighten bolts on Triples.

You can also back off spring preload a bit. Don't go too far. If you soften preload too much the bike will wallow around at speed on the highway. But by backing off the preload (rear is most important) when you sit on the bike it will "sag" (technical term) down more....so you're feet will touch down sooner.

Yet another thing you can do is to have someone skilled modify your seat. Pleny of talented upolstry shops.Scrape off some foam at the front and on the sides. Many times seats splay your legs outward because they are too wide in the front, making it harder to reach the ground. So make the seat not only LOWER but narrower. Mostly in front/middle of seat.

NOTE: anytime you come to a stop, you need to scoot your butt up forward as far as possible. This will allow getting your feet down on uneven surfaces with less drama. Also, pick your spot to stop. Always use your LEFT foot to reach the ground....right foot on brake. So find a curb, ridge, high spot,
berm, rock, what ever to perch on. Get it? I've done this my whole life because I'm a shrimp...and I've adapted...so can you. Another important trick is to get over to one side (left) and scoot your left butt check off the seat to allow your leg more reach. YOu probably use this one already. Works great,
looks funny!

That's about all you can do when on the road. Any machinist worth a crap can MAKE new Dog bone links for you. Use the old ones as a model and find out about what length you need to make them. When you see them you will see how simple they are.

Figure out correct length by removing the dog bones from the linkage and move rear of bike up and down and mearsure to know what you need. Much easier than it sounds. Any City or large town could have a good machinist.

Once the bike is lower your life off road will change.

Remember Patrick's first rules of riding in the dirt:

1.Where you look is everything. Never look a meter in front of you...look way out down the trail/road about 10 or 15 meters. If you focus on that evil rut right in front of you...you will drive into it and crash...guaranteed.

A. Learn to read terrain and anticipate, pick the best line. What's under you now is secondary to what's coming up. You will amazed the difference this will make in your riding...but you have to continually remind yourself to look far ahead. Never look at ruts, you will crash.

2. Breath. Many riders when in stressful off road riding simply hold their breath. Totally unconcious. Leads to arm pump and exhaustion.

3. Stand up. You almost always need to be standing. Get used to it. You will ride better, have better vision and make the tough stuff easier. Relax your grip on the bars.

4. Keep your speed up. Going too slowly, especially in rocks is recipe for disaster. A bit of speed will see you through. Work up to this. Always push for more speed. It will make you better, safer and stronger. The throttle is your friend.

Good luck, I hope things can be improved !

Patrick:scooter:

Old man Rodney on his KTM 950S in Utah. Former professional Flat Track racer, Master's Class Cross Country Champ. (66 years of age)
http://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/ph...50318964-M.jpg

Height vs. Weight
 

My experience tells me that seat height is a far more important factor than the weight of a bike in terms of ease of handling and confidence. The ability to get both feet solidly flat on the ground does wonders when coping with all kinds of mundane and not so benign situations including slow speed urban complications. Try backing a bike, especially a heavily loaded one, up even a slight incline if you're on tip toes. You may well need someone behind you pulling.

I recall that the LWR cameraman (out of necessity) switched to a Russian 250 at one point. The two stars of the show continued their tortured struggles through the muck on their GS Adventures while the cameraman merrily sailed along. His explanation, I believe, was that he just put his feet down and padded along...no problem.

In my opinion a feet on the ground seat height combined with a low overall centre of gravity are much to be desired as design elements and will compensate nicely for a multitude of weighty sins.

Norm

KLR - Buy In USA
 

Buy the KLR - reliable, easy to fix, loads of parts from Cananda to Argentina.
It does not not win any beauty contest that's for sure.

Buy it in the USA - you can buy one the same afternoon you arrive from the
UK, it real is that easy!

It seems totally wrong to me to have offroad bikes with seat heights so tall the rider has difficulty to reach the ground. To have a bike so heavy you cant pick it up. To have a bike that for practically any breakdown you need to phone for a tow truck back to the main dealers for repair.
All the old Brit bikes had low seats, low centre of gravity and were practical transport. They also handled well. They suited their environment of the time.
Nowadays bikes are consumer 'white goods' they are meant to be thrown away when they fail, you wont find many working vintage post 1990 bikes when they are that old, they will have been recycled into coke cans.
Why the change ? Mainly marketing hype, and it is the riders who pay.
EFI and engine management is done mostly for marketing, as is the huge horse power that these technologies allow. Seriously, how fast can you ride legally? In the UK there are so many cameras about that you wont keep your licence long if you habitually exceed 80mph. That takes less than 25hp.
I note with interest that Ted Simon fixed his Triumph when he broke a piston in Egypt and carried on to South Africa to get it repaired in a dealers. Yet the LWR team had to abandon one of their BMWs (despite having factory trained technicians witha van load of spares) for brake fault. So a broken piston on an old Triumph is less hassle than an electrical fault on a BMW. And most other 'modern, never go wrong, but scrap it if it does' bike. Do not give me the argumentthat they need EFI for emission control, it simply is not so. EFI is needed where you want to extract maximum power, but that is not 'needed' for touring. Enfields new lean burn engine meets and exceed the Indian (most strict) EEU and USA regulations, so if they can do it I am sure the Germans and Japanese could figure out how also. Maybe atthe same time improve their mpg to something like teh Enfields 75-100mpg. no need for 43 liter tank then.
Look at BMW. When they went from Carbs to EFI the power jumped up from 60 to 100+bhp. The mpg if anything dropped. But who really needs more than 60hp for touring. Of course if you into a competitive sport where you need all thh power you can get, then EFI is the answer, but having to pay many £100's for a black box instead of £2.50 for set of points is a charge too high in my opinion.
The high seat heights are mostly a result of the switch to wet sump engines (cheaper to manufacture) which allows the manufacturers to put all the works (engine, gears and clutch into one casting ) cheaper to manufacture, it also totally negates ALL the improvements brought about by modern oils, as the engine contaminates the gear oil and the gears chew up the engine oil. (shared same oil). This is why cars get 10k miles out of engine oils, and more than double that out of gear oil. Basically we are being sold a lie. So whats new? Perhaps saddam hid all his weapons of mass deception in all those little black boxes for which we have paid so dearly?

once again we·ve been had ....!
 

but, thats normal if we wan·t to believe that, we live in a "democratic world" !:crying:
Hear - Hear - Oldbmw:thumbup1: ,( remember the lovely big ice creams of the past? Look at the ones our kids are "begging" for now)?---- (even if we should have different ideas about the : WHY? :(
Rights of the sources of production for the labourors/users. (for everybody actually but not like now,--- in equal proportions, or something intellectualy sensible:thumbup: , and Not like bloody now, where some make a 50.000.000 dollar a year wage for executing their pleasant hobby, or 100·s of times more, destroying the lives of millions of Youths/ blacks/ muslims,or blue eyed people (Nice persons) :crying: )! Or do we prefer to choose the "Opium for the people" (sheep) share, that makes Beckhams,O·neals, or even Arm/ drug dealers (not to be compared MORALLY with sport idols,( cause they just can·t help it)(cheap laughs),on a big scale) to be our heroes/ models to be imitated:confused1:. Take your hat off boy; this is a powerfull and rich man!!!! :tank:
Thats the way our societies work or is·nt it????:helpsmilie:
Global, powerfull movement is needed, even if these do not lead to any moves,exeededly great for the better, remember The Beatles: it·s getting better all the ti-i-ime,---- it could·nt get much worse!:(
THAT IS WHY I believe that "love and peace" and the good old Hippie days were a little closer to "a good idea".... it could·nt/can·t get much worse!?:wub:
Or what do You guys think?:confused2:
PS: Please do Yourselves a favour and STOP looking for these things, the existence of which, " powerfull people" continuesly try to convince us, with little drawings on a piece of paper !!!!! (my son of 3 years of age started to believe that there were tiny people in those trucks)!:eek3:
Love and peace,:blush:
Dan:tongue_smilie:

Repeated opinion
 

G·day again.:thumbup1:
Sorry for being :offtopic:
Well to tell the truth, I do·nt think there is any topic more ON topic? :confused1:
Whatever You say "guvnor".:whistling:
Dan:tongue_smilie:

Thanks Patrick and all for the advice! And the piss taking !Fair game! :)
I think I am getting better. To be fair I can handle the weight, got used to it, and I can handle dirt ok as long as I do not need to stop in a hurry! But when an armed soldier on a bend ask you to stop you stop fast! And I drop the bike! But I agree with what has been said, being able to put 2 flat feet on the ground is very important on dirt roads. I had the seat scooped out and is as low as it can be! Adjusting my new WP rear shock would be problematic! I don´t want to get it messed up by a bad mechanic. Fortunately I have a contact in Arequipa and I am hopeful to get some stuff sorted on the bike! I don´t think I can lower the bike further, every time I go through one of the speed bump (God know how much they love them here, they are huge!) my centre stand take a bad hit!
anyway my point was, don´t fall for the hip! You don´t need a 1200cc for a RW trip! I also remember the cameraman of the LWR in his little russian bike. But then for the programme 2 big guys on 2 little bikes would not have made so much $$$!

My choice of bike was a compromise between me and my (tall) other half! Maybe we should have gone for different bikes instead of the same model? At least he can pick up my bike! For women travelling alone I would tell them to make sure that they can pick up their own bike! And that they can reach the ground with both feet flat! No way to paddle otherwise ! Yes, Lois got it right!

Cheers,

I really wasn't giving you a hard time...sorry if you misinterpreted this. Tal vez es una problema en traducion con la idioma Ingles Norte Americano ? Pero su Ingles es casi perfecto! No se.. y disculpame por mi Espanol mal.:rolleyes2: I wish you only the very best...!que le via bien!

Replacing the dog bone link should be pretty simple thing, done all the time. Not rocket science. Check on Chain Gang or other forum.

If the center stand is hitting....you need more preload or a heavier spring perhaps? Have you measured your Sag with all gear loaded on bike? Should not be more than 3 to 3.5 inches. (104mm mas o menos) Ojala su esposo entiende estes cosas. Basicamente.

Any way, another reason it hits could be because its loose and flopping. Tie it up securely so it can't flop down on a Tope. Another common and easily fixable problem. small bungee works OK.

Also...Maria....get up off your butt on those Topes...don't just sit there. STAND PLEASE. Your bike will thank you and so will your spine! :clap:

Ciao,
Patricio el diplomato:Beach:

Hi,

Just my £0.02-worth:

After a couple of longish and a few smaller trips on 650 class machines, last year I bought a 200cc trail bike for trail riding locally and in competitions.

Not having got around to getting a means of transporting it I've taken to riding it everywhere, including to competitions. I was initially dreading this but in the end providing one doesn't expect to get anywhere fast and stays away from motorways the 200cc is fine. I haven't tried it with baggage but then I can't imagine carrying much anyway which is generally a good thing.

IMHO for trips to, say Africa or South America, the only time a big (i.e. 600cc+) bike is useful is getting to the continent in question or riding on motorways. But then it's usually more interesting to take the slow road where a smaller bike is fine. As for riding off-tarmac (which I've been doing, mainly competitively, for around 25 years), it's well documented that lighter is better.

However, I do think an extra 50cc would be useful so my next trail bike will be a 250cc - current favourite is the new Yamaha WR250R (not WR250F). I just hope we get them in the UK.

Cheers,

Ian.

WR-R vs. WR-F ?
 

:offtopic:
Good advice Ian.
Is the WR250R model the road legal one that is now selling in Japan?
Here we only have the F, never had any road legal WR's here.

What iv'e heard is that the road legal model is really quite different. Lots less power. Different cams, compression, valve timing, and also quite a bit heavier.

But perhaps a longer lasting motor since it's in a de-tuned state? Might be a wise move. I've ridden the WR250F (and 450) on a number of occasions and am thinking it will be my next dirt bike. Very reliable, best among the modern four strokes.

Suzuki are set to come out with a new street legal Dual Sport bike for '08 (or so I've heard). It will replace the current DRZ400S. I'm hoping they do a 250 version as well.

Buy an old beat Van for transporting your dirt bike. Get a buddy to go in with you....saves lots.


Cheers,

Patrick

Im thinking of using a Honda XR400 for Africa or a DRZ450. Obviously with a braced subrame and bigger tank.

Anyone used these ?

I think ill be fine on my XT600E for South America. Small bikes are easy to throw about but skill and determination makes up for weight ;)

I think you mean DRZ400? Or perhaps you are prescient? As it turns out, it looks like Suzuki will soon introduce a new bike.....a DRZ450S!!!
This will be based on the latest 450 MX bike and will replace the current
7 year old DRZ model, or will be an additional model. Not sure. But it's likely it is coming...no idea exactly when.

I would think your XT would be fine for Africa. Why get another bike?
As the Red Necks racers 'round these parts say: Run What 'ya Brung.

I've owned both the XR400 (with Baja kit on) and DRZ400E, I owned both for three years each. XR: '97 to 2001, DRZ: 2000 to '03.

The DRZ is a better off road bike, IMO. But either one would be fine really. After all, you're not riding enduros with them....you're just traveling.
If it were me, I'd just take the XT. Like you say, you can ride around the weight. Pack light? Dunno.

Anyway, you can't afford another bike dude! :Beach:
Now get back to work!! :rofl:

Patrick

HAHAHAHA !!! I am at work actually.

Im not buying now but thinking ahead 2 years.

My XT will probably be in pieces by the time Im thinking of Africa :D. I want to really travel light in the Africas so thinking of a 400 (yes i meant the 400)

Fear not, I have a get rich scheme on the Horizon (and yes its legal)

:)

if You really want to get rich....
 

Hi ted,:thumbup1:
if it·s legal, it won·t make You rich!:huh:
The two things just don·t go together!:nono:
What about a tiny bit illegal, or hardly not illegal? Give much better results!:innocent:
Just take a look at most rich peoples get rich methods!!!!:(
All the best in life, I wish You my friend,:clap: and a big dosis of.... love and peace:yes:
Dan:tongue_smilie:

don´t worry, funny piss taking is fun! I have a strong sense of humour, required when travelling long distance! :mchappy:

I will have a look at that, it might be a very good idea! Thanks for the tip!

I had the WP rear shock fitted and adjusted by MCTechnics wih the bike fully loaded so should be ok, Darren seemed to be very knowledgeable...

Sure!

Ted plan is a good one. A couple of friends crossed Africa by the east coast on 2 BMW F650GS and as she said, you don´t need such bike for Africa, a small light one would have been infinitely more appropriate. If I cross africa one day it will be on a 250 or 350 max, no camping gear,hardly any spares, minimal load! The way to go! For south america carrying tons of camping gear for almost nothing is very annoying but (I hope!) it will come handy in Bolivia and many parts of Argentina! But without it we would be so light!
Happy ride everyone !

Camping in Bolivia?:laugh: :lol2:

Remember Peru'? Same, maybe more rain and more human feces in unexpected places.

Argentina has great camping, as does Chile in the south and lake district.
Clean, safe, and no bugs. Did you know they sell camping gear in B.A.?
Buenos Aires makes Los Angeles look like the hick town suburb it is....just an
amazing city with everything you could possibly need.

Sorry you had to carry that camping gear like Jesus's Cross across the world!
Todos somos Catalicos aqui' .....

I didn't realize you're White Power shock (did you know the real name for WP?) was specially set up for you....They could have...and should have lowered the bike right then and there for you whilist they were setting it up for you.

In the meantime....stay on the main roads....:clap: and watch where you step in Bolivia!

Patrick:Beach:

The WR250R is indeed the road legal model - it's on the Yamaha Japan website and has been featured in the UK Trail Bike and Enduro Magazine and the French Moto Verte magazine.

I am hoping the WR250R is in a lesser state than the WR250F and is more suitable for travelling. I was considering a WR250F, and even a Scorpa T-Ride which has a WR250F motor and is low and light. As a trials rider I'm quite keen on this kind of trials-derived trailbike.

If I buy any of these three I'll report back as soon as I've done a trip on one.

I'm working on the transport.

Cheers.

You´re so right! All that camping stuff is like Jesuss cross! Take so much space and weight so much!!! :(
They DID adjust the rear shock for me, but one thing is getting it nicely in tarmac, the next is hitting the dirt! A little bit of leverage with the legs would be so much easier. I just found a honda dealer in arequipa and I left the bike with them (to replace my fork seal) but I asked them to adjust the preload at the same time. Hopefully they won´t destroy the shock! I live in hope! You need a lot of that when travelling :D

The WR250R is now on the Yamaha UK website:

2008 WR250R

Motor does look considerably different to the WR250F, and it's got EFI.

This narrows (expands?) my choice of next trail bike to the WR250R or the Scorpa T-Ride

Le site de Scorpa

Pros/cons:

WR250R: possibly more suitable motor for travelling (economy, robustness), but looks quite tall and relatively heavy.

T-Ride: light, low, but is the WR250F derived motor up to travelling?

Learned opinions required.

Thanks.

Where are the Italians!!
 

Yet another 'definitive' bike list without any Italians mentioned!! For all their problems, if you are looking at a big trailie you should at least have a go on a Cagiva Elefant! (esp. if you are on a Budget)

The '750 is more like a Super Tenere than an AT, but the engine spins up faster, mainly due to lighter cam components. They are an awful lot of bike for the money (expect to pay around a grand (£) for a decent bike with 15-20K on the clock.

The normal problems are easily fixed by a bit of decent prep, and they have good old fashioned carbs!!

They are indeed a bit on the heavy side, and to be honest if one single person had said get a serow before I left I would have done, but that is the exuberance and inexperience of youth for you. As it was getting a beast for the first bike meant I learnt much faster I reckon. Also on bad corrugations once you get up to speed the bumps smooth out real well and the bike felt very planted, which I put down to the weight.

One question about bigger bikes - did the Dakar ban big v-twins which used to dominate get banned as I was once told, or have people chosen not to ride anything over 650??

Ian,
Not so much learned opinion, but your post raises the 250cc "question" again - and that's not a bad thing at all among all the advocacy for 600s and above.

Among the razz-a-ma-tazz of this week about the new Tenere, the WR250R has sort of slipped in quietly; I am surprised you think it is heavy at 126 Kg (that Tenere, for example, is much more!).
Seat height; yes, it is taller than a skyscraper - of course the suspension "settles" a lot, is long travel and provides 300m or so of ground clearance but most of us do not have massive inside leg measurements.
Fuel capacity: I guess you will be looking for an after-market tank because the standard is 7.6L (even the TT600R has 10L as standard).
Wet sump: oldBMW made some telling comments on this design, a while back.

You did get me looking at the Yam webpage again and here is a comparison:-

Motorcycle Comparison Details

I just wonder which bike is "best value"?
ps The bike on the LHS has a dry sump engine design, which was news to me.

Cheers,

Is the WR250R not heavy for a 250cc? The 2008 Yamaha WR250F is 106kg. OK, the F is an enduro bike, but 20kg difference?

Mind you the new Tenere is also quite heavy when compared to others in the '600' class.

I would hope that an aftermarket bigger tank would be available, but you never know. In the worst case, one could always have one made.

Be interested to hear about the wet sump issue in more detail.

Thanks.

Ian,
The quote here is the story on wetsump engine design. But, it is cheap and most bikes have it nowadays - hence I was surprised to see that Yam are making a road bike with a dry sump engine.

I've never sat down to run a detailed weight comparison of the 250s available, but the quoted figures do not seem too bad to me for the Yam 250R - - my guess is that it is comparible with other 250s that are road legal. Having said that, it is not clear where the extra 20 Kg comes from compared with the F model; A good look at both of them, side by side, at a bike show may reveal the answers.


As for the Tenere, it will have to beat the new KTM 690 Adv which will appear in 2008; I think that bike will be the benchmark for single thumpers, on weight alone (and it is certain to have White Power suspension!).
I still consider 183 Kg to be over-weight in this day and age; the Yam TT600R is about 140 Kg - a design that goes back to the 1990s.

Mmmm....don't most dry sump motors also have shared gearbox and engine oils? LC4 for sure, Rotax 4T family? Most Japanese 600cc+ singles?

The only exception I can think of is the Honda motor that powers the Montesa 4RT trials bike (itself derived from the CRF250) which has separate gearbox and engine oils.

I thought that 'oil sharing' is the reason why we have motorcycle specific 4-stroke oils i.e. they're designed to work in the engine and gearbox. And why it may not be wise to use car engine oil in a 4 stroke motorcycle i.e. it's not designed for use in gearboxes.

That said, I'd guess a bike with wet sump engine is cheaper to produce than a dry sump - no oil tank etc. But isn't one advantage of a dry sump engine that the oil can be circulated externally to the engine and therefore be cooled?

Hi Ian,
It's always interesting how one statement or question leads to 1/2 a dozen or more! I believe you are right about sharing oil in dry sump designs, such as the TT600R, for example.
So, some input from the engine design experts here would be interesting.

For sure (to quote Rossi), most modern road bike engines are wet sump and quite a few high performance engines also have oil coolers.

As far as I know, no British dry sump bike shared oils, until triumph in 1970 shared primary chaincase oil with the engine. many riders retrofitted the seals between the two. It makes no sense to have bits of clutch plate in your engines oil just to get the wrong grade in your wet clutch. ( even tho the sharing was very limited.)
I do not see why anyone would share oils using a dry sump system.

Re weight, current 500cc Enfields are 160 KG and they usually exceed 80mpg.

The Japanese somehow figured this new fangled "Wet Sump" mallarky quite a while ago....like maybe 1956 or so, since Honda copied verbatim the Gilera and MV Augusta GP inline four race bike designs...both wet sumps IIRC. And by the mid 60's it became standard on most all Japanese bikes. Seems to work quite well since about 98% of all Jap bikes use the wet sump design. (Not counting 2 strokes, the new CRF's, and possibly a few other obscure models??)

We would need Kevin Cameron to detail all the advantages of Wet sump vs. Dry sump from an engineers perspective, but I can assure vintage motor heads there are several good reasons why they went this way nearly 50 years ago.

From cost of manufacture, to effecient placement of gearbox in the case to allow motor to be smaller/lighter and more mass centralized, to carrying more oil capacity....where gears actually help cool off the oil.

Somewhere along the way they learned how to build a clutch that doesn't shed bits (usually) to using much improved oil spray distribution / filtering /cooling techniques to keep things happy, all in a relatively small, light ALL Aluminum package.

Early on, what the Japanese really had that the Brits didn't was knowledge of latest Metalurgical tech. This knowledge was given the Japanese by the US military after WW2 (who stole it from the Germans!!! True!) in an effort to give their industries a boost. We gave them all kinds of technology...including the transistor....which soon after led to the end of Points ignition. The Japanese are also the world's best reverse engineers. Now Triumph are playing that same game....see new 675 triple!! :thumbup1:

Having grown up with, raced and pushed pre-unit, right side shifting Triumph's and BSA's, I was thrilled to own my first Honda 50 in about 1963. You COULD NOT blow that bike up....and trust me...we tried. Every guy I ever met riding early Brit bikes blew them up at some point (including yours truly), everyone had a story about the 4000 mile valve train/top end and drive chains made of butter. (Jap chains weren't much better in the early days)

Brit bikes worked great in rainy, cool UK. But not so great in the S. California desert, if ridden hard. They did great at Ascot Park (where I raced a Bultaco Pursang) ALL the races were at night! :Beach:

Both Honda's current motocross racers (CFR250/CRF450) use seperate Oil/Gear Box compartments. I've forgotten the technical justification for going this route. But who knows, maybe they are now re-examining this concept? It's appealing in many ways....

I like the idea of using oil optimized for the engine...and gear box oil optimized for the gear box...this has an undeniable logic to it.:thumbup1: And these motors are so small it amazing....I think they got the idea from Vertimati Bros
motor.

The main problem for years with combining Engine and Gear box oil is molecular shearing (or whatever the true technical reference would be). This happens when whirring gears break up oil molecules. Sheared molecules at some point cause the oil to lose film strength, which can then be broken down by heat to where protection is lessened.

But for 20 years modern oils have been up to the task of resisting this breakdown. On my dirt bikes I still change oil about every 500 miles. Hard miles, redline miles, bogged in sand miles, at full throttle in 35c temps.

Patrick:scooter:

Ian,
I was reminded of your weight point made here when I read about a new BMW (http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...5-2#post150892) --- the GX450, reputed to be under 130 Kg.

It will be very interesting to see what weights the other Beemers will achieve, compared, for example with the new Yam Tenere: as per the original thread, the definitive bike for 2008 could be a whole range of bikes coming out in the next few months!!

For some reason the system wants me to add more text

It is debatable that the Japanese had superior metallurgical technology to the British ,certainly their bikes of the sixties and seventies were made of inferior alloys that turned to powder once the "varnish" had peeled off and the engine cases of these bikes were glued together to make them oiltight .
The bikes were able to fulfill a market need based on performance and price and hence their success .
If the British "captains of industry " had had the vision and drive of Soichiro Honda then Brit bikes would be still world leaders .
Technology was not lacking but business acumen certainly was .

Well for what its worth, during the sixties my BSA was an oil spewing, vibrating piece of junk which would start maybe half the time, sported an Frankenstein electrical system and actually used to shed parts as it proceeded down the highway. My Honda and Yamaha were wonders of smooth reliability and never, ever let me down. Somewhere in that scenario superior technology must have played a role.

The BSA had very cool optics, however.

Normw

The Brits probably "had" the technology but they certainly didn't use it much on their bikes or cars. (F-1 notwithstanding) Not only were the Alu castings inferior to Japanese ones (that cost half what the Brit bikes did)...they were porous, they warped just looking at them and would crack. Warped castings is a sure sign of a poor understanding of Metalurgical science. You may believe the Brits were the equal of the US in this area...but history sort of proves otherwise.

Remember, the SR71 Blackbird was designed and tested in the mid 1950's, it was operational very soon after. This an expanding Titanium skinned mach 3 behemoth that was easily 30 years ahead of anything the Brits (or anyone) had...or even dreamed of. This monster spy plane was kept secret until the early to mid 70's.

Quality control beggining in the 70's was horrendous. (See Mick Duckworth and his Triumph books) The bearings didn't last long, Valves, seats, cams were a joke and heads warped on a very regular basis. Frames/suspension handled really well but cracked..... and how 'bout those electrics, eh? Lucas, Prince of Darkness, was a friend of mine.

Before you start trying to defend British "industry" (what? Coal?:w00t:) of this period I might remind you...they didn't have any. Should we disect the fabulous Brit car industry?:rolleyes2: Rover, Jag, Morris? MG, Hillman, Triumph? and on an on. All well known for unmatched reliability, right? :rofl: The 70's spelled the end for many of these companies....along with the few remaining bike companies. Oh, I know, lets blame the unions! :thumbup1:

Sure, Japanese Alu got powdery and they did use that varnish that peeled off.
But what was inside was pretty frikin solid....and ran and ran and ran. And that's the bottom line. The bikes were tough....and any engineer could see the quality and brilliance in the designs....all done at a bargain price.
Nothing has really changed in that regard!

The Good (early Jap bikes 1960 to 1970)
Motors (with some exceptions...stellar for the cost)
Gear box (rare failures)
Electrics (20 years ahead of the Germans, Brits and Americans)
Bearings (world class)
Wheels (heavy but strong and stayed true)

The Bad:
Brakes (good brakes came in '72 or so)
frames (strong but crude, evil handling in first decade)
Finish on Alu (only in some cases) suffered corrosion. Both my Honda 50 and SuperHawk 305 has this....both lasted years and never saw the inside of a shop or a wrench.

Suspension could go either way back then.

Also, lets look at some racing history...by the early 60's the Japanese began to dominate in Moto GP, winning world Championships in almost ALL the classes (50, 125, 250, 500). They won at Isle of Man (Remember Canadian
Mike (Michele) Duff riding forYamaha with Phil Read? Racing improves the breed...and the Japanese have always taken it dead serious. (too serious)


"Filling a need" is maybe how it started but folks quickly learned just how solid, reliable and maintenance free Japanese bikes were. I used to ride my Honda 50 in the ocean....on a regular basis. By the time the "You met the nicest people on a Honda" ad campaign came out in about 1963 or '64, they were well on their way....a whole new generation had been tapped. Not much brand loyalty in the US....the young kids could care less about Triumph and anything else, they bought Hondas, Yamahas, Kawasaki's and Suzuki's.

By the end only Triumph/BSA were left and the exec board had all made their money and just could care less. They saw the writing on the walls...remember all their competition was gone...so why stay in the game? They poo poo'd the Japanese products till the end....having their asses handed to them in several
major racing venues....and while Triumph were selling a 100,000, Honda were selling millions. The Triumph guys were done, didn't want to stay in the game.

Funny, if they had asked...Honda would have propped up the company and helped out Triumph until they could re-tool. Never happened.

Patrick:mchappy:

Hit Quote, then don't type inside the quote box.
 

Well I ran maybe 20 of them far and wide before synth oil ever came along....or until I wasn't too cheap to buy it.

Poor mechanical designs? :smartass: That's funny pops. Your pipe and slippers are ready deary...have some warm milk and off to bed now.. :santa:

I think you're looking into the past with Rose Colored glasses. Brit bikes were great if you knew how to keep them running. Nowadays, many have fully modern restorations....modern heads, cams, valves, pistons, barrels. Very nice. Anyone ever heard of Kenny Drear? Amazing stuff.

If I wanted an old Triumph...I'd buy a new Bonneville....close enough for Rock&Roll. NOTE: Unit construction!! NOT pre-unit.

PS I have a friend who rides a clapped out TDM 850 Yamaha...parallel twin,
5 valve motor. Around since '92. Imported to US for only two years. He has
a '92. He runs cheap Chevron Delo, changes it every 10,000 miles. The bikes
is beat up...but that motor is just like new. 55,000 miles....no problems other than crash damage and some rust from the thing living outside since new.

Most Jap bikes would run fine on French Fry oil. :cool3:

Patrick:mchappy:

I'll just add my £0.02-worth on the now completely off-topic debate:

I've generally had mainland European bikes - Montesa, Ossa, Bultaco (for trials) and more lately KTM (for travel). But I've always looked enviously at the Japanese models (particularly those of the 80s - Tenere, TYs, TLs, various XLs and oher XTs). Reason: tales of rock-solid reliability, 'bullet-proof' motors and huge mileages.

My only experience of owning a old British bike put me off them for life (mainly becuase of electrics and the number of tools required even to do basic maintenance). That said the machine was around 40 years old and virtually in standard trim. I also have friends who ride old British machines which, generally after they've been rebuilt using modern parts, seem to be reliable.

Anyway, back to my original question: learned opinions on the WR250R and Scorpa T-Ride as credible travelling machines please?

Thanks.

I always thought that the British metallurgical quality that was in early british bikes was due to gun barrel developments being applied to the barrels on cyclinders - hence B.S.A's movement into making small-bore engines post-war.

That's right Henry. BSA (Birmingham Small Arms) started up around WW1 or thereabouts. I'd have to look up the exact year when they started making bikes, but I do know they go back to the 1920's at least.

Edward Turner made huge strides in engine R&D while at Triumph in the 1930s. Later, many motorcycle companies in the UK borrowed from aircraft industry alloy research in metalurgy during WW2.

By the end of WW2 the Germans had really figured a few things out...as we all know. Atom bomb tech came from Germany....the Ruskies got half their engineers and US got the other half. Lots and lots new, unheard of technologies were "appropriated" from the Germans... and the Germans have never been paid for any of it to this day. (to the winner, the spoils of war)

Everything from breakthrough chemicals and medicines (Dow and ICI benefited greatly), to film and magnetic tape tech (Agfa) where 3M and Kodak benefited, to supercharging and turbo tech which US/UK aircraft companies benefited from, to the development of Jets, which mostly the US military kept to themselves. Many of these areas had to depend on advanced Alloys, which the Germans were into in the 30's. By the 50's the US military had put some of this to use. (see reference to SR71 Blackbird above)

In most of these areas the Germans where probably 10 to 15 years ahead of the US and UK and Japan.

After WW2 much of what the US occupation of Japan was about was re-building the country. This is where the tech sharing came in.

Patrick:mchappy:

Go back to the first post in the thread. Talking details about the WR250 is just as "Off Topic" as talking about old Brit bikes and metalurgy really. No big deal.:cool4:

I've never heard of the Scorpa T- Ride. What is it? Who makes it? History of it?

As for the WR250R....the model we get here in the US would not, to me, be the ideal long distance machine. Both the YZ450F/YZ250 and WR450F/WR250F as sold in the US are all off road, non street legal bikes.

They are SUPER light weight....like 106 kgs. for the WR250, 112 for the WR450. (claimed dry weight) The YZ kick start motocrosser are about 4 kgs. lighter still. (no battery or starter motor)

The weights of the Yamaha's compares very favorably with what Honda are doing with their CRF250X/CRF45X, which are also sold as Off Road only bikes
in the US and also have electric starting. The Yams and Hondas are probably within a kg. of one another.

Suzuki's bikes too are featherweights and now have Fuel injection for 2008.
But Suzuki, at this point, does not have an Off road version, only a moto crosser. But that will change.

Kawi has only a KLX450 off road version...still not street legal in the US, but
a detuned version of the motocross race bike with electric start and lights.

KTM make two street legal dirt bikes....the 450 and 530. Because they are a small manufacturer, are not required to make the bikes totally green, like, say,
Suzuki's DRZ400S, which has many many changes from the Off road E model.

I've heard of a street version of the WR250, made for Japan. Maybe this is the bike that is reffered to in this thread? I've heard it's TOTALLY different to the YZ/WR bikes. Is this bike being imported to the UK?

This might be a good distance bike if you can find a good seat and add luggage?

Patrick :scooter:

So if all these new bikes are so good, why dont I want one ?

It should be obvious that there is no definitive bike for RTW travel.

This is simply a thread for stating our own prejudices and preferences for the bike we ride (or hope to ride) rather than any sort of "definitive" conclusion.

My suggestions:
Stop talking about it - just do it!
Whine about it later, to someone who cares.

I think that was made pretty clear in the first page or so of this thread....you read it ...right? :sneaky2:

Master of the obvious! :smartass:

Oh my, no need to get snippy!
This thread kind of went off in a bunch of different directions. Kind of a fun thread I thought and no one seemed to mind. With such a broad subject, that was bound to happen. If you have something to contribute, then have at it.
If you don't care, then why post at all? :angel:

Patrick:mchappy:

browbeating
 

Ye Gods Patrick take a freakin' pill or something .
Can't anybody on this forum have a point of view other than yours ?

Technology :
I was around in the seventies in the UK and saw those rusting heaps of Japanese junk called cars ,even owned a couple too .Also I rode the bikes as well and when they were new they were great but they got old very fast .
The Japanese electrics a few years down the road were just as troublesome as Lucas . The welding was crap ,they used pressed steel sections that rusted instead of tubing and mostly the handling was awful .The only bike that impressed me at the time was the Kawasaki Z1 because at last the Japs had designed a bike that didn't look chintsy .

Invention:
"You may believe the Brits were the equal of the US in this area...but history sort of proves otherwise."-- I never suggested this Patrick- you did - wanna compare HDs of the time with Brit bikes ?

History:
Industry in the seventies in the UK was in a mess , Triumph workers used to leave little insulting messages in the engine cases for American owners to find.
I haven't tried to defend Brit industry , read what I wrote !
You mention Coal ,both sides of my family were miners , you mention Unions ,I lived in a coal mining area during the days of the 3 day working week and later the miner's strike ,do you want to tell me something about those days that I don't already know ?
What's your point anyway ?
Your view about Triumph is wrong ,they soldiered on until they went bankrupt ,sadly never, ever able to read the writing on the wall .
If only John Bloor had been chairman of BSA/Triumph in those days ; what would be the state of the Brit bike industry now ?

Racing:
British bikes came over to Daytona and won in the seventies and regularly beat Japanese and Italian bikes in International races , the Rob North framed Triumphs and BSA s are legendary .
Peter Williams' racing engineering on the Norton was superb and he beat 4 cylinder Jap bikes on a regular basis ,he experimented with monocoque and trellis frames many years before the Japs , if he had had a modern engine and a decent budget ,what could he have achieved? [ maybe this should be in technology ]
The Honda racers that raced in the Isle of Man were purpose built racers and fast but evil handling pieces of crap that only Mike Hailwood could tame .Yamaha were successful with their two strokes and dominated the smaller classes but in the early years successful racers used British frames . The only guy that could beat Peter Williams' Arter Matchless on the Island was Agostini on the 500 MV and that was well into the seventies .

Cars??
I never mentioned cars Patrick , I thought this was about bikes , but by denigrating British cars are you suggesting that Jap cars of the era were good , how many world rallies did Ford of Britain win -- not a bad record I fear ? .

Planes ???
Didn't mention planes either , but Brit technology can't be all bad or do you guys use the Harrier for shopping trips ? The Yanks used political pressure to destroy many worthy Brit projects .

Points of view of mine :
I lived in the UK during this period and witnessed the Japanese dominance of the bike industry ,it was as much due to the British ineptitude rather than overall Japanese superiority, after the collapse of the British bike industry there was nothing else to buy .The Japanese were great imitators and copied engineering concepts that originated in the West .By and large Japanese engines were reliable ,apart from Honda 4s that had a cam chain trouble and Kawa triples that seized ,and Suzuki triples that grenaded [ the 500 twin was good though ] - oh and wasn't there cam problems with early Honda V4s. So not perfect .

I borrowed a Honda 50 once , I thought that it was a piece of crap and not a thing I would ever want my mates to see me riding . The Honda cub may be the world's most successful bike but it's little more than a moped to me .


Please feel free to disagree and fly off the handle .

Tired
 

Japanese tyres in those days were rubbish too !
[ Obviously a lack of rubber technology ]



Younger readers , ie less than 45 may want to skip this thread .
Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible .

BSA started in the 1860s by independant gunmakers wanting to standardise production .Produced their first motorbike in 1903 and their first car in about 1907 .They owned Daimler cars and also produced bicycles .They had over 60 factories during ww2 making guns ,motorcycles and other things .
They are still around and make a Yamaha engined bike , the name BSA is still seen on air rifles and gun scopes although I think it is a seperate company .

For what it's worth .Comparing bikes of the same era and similar engine size and type .

My BSA started every time first kick ,did not leak oil , vibrated like a bugger , looked great [it was an Eddy Dow special but the later Lightnings were good lookers too ] ,went well for a 650 twin and sounded lovely [ Dunstall Decibel silencers ], handled good .Brakes poor .It never let me down .

My Yamaha starts every time first kick or lectric , leaks oil [clutch and countershaft seals -soon to be fixed ] ,vibrates above 85 mph ,looks horrible, slow for a 650 twin but goes better now the engine has been modified ,sounds nice [Commando exhausts] ,handles average .Brakes good .Blew the alternator twice last year and once this year .This bike was very well regarded in it's day and had a long production run .

My Norton starts first kick , leaks oil [ primary case and gearchange o rings - soon to be fixed ] , vibration is not felt [ isolastic engine mounts ] , looks great , goes really well for a supposedly 67 hp bike , sounds fantastic [Dunstalls ] ,handles really well .Brakes only average .Has never let me down other than an exhaust nut coming loose although I suspect the zener diode will need replacing with a solid state reg/rect system .

I haven't included any singles, triples or 4 cylinder bikes as I believe it's important to compare " like with like" and only comment in depth on bikes that I am completely familiar with .Also the bikes are in similar mechanical condition .
Technology : I've had all of these bikes apart and am impressed with the roller bearings in the Yam engine ,but the quality of it's castings is poor and the intake and exhaust ports are badly shaped . The Norton has superb gas flowing qualities and a good combustion chamber shape but alas no OHC and roller big end .

The Japanese bike has a robust engine that can be tweaked to get more power - it needs it . The BSA produces the same power as the Yam but is faster [ raced with my mate who had one ] .The BSA could be tweaked to get more power as well but not as far as the Yam . The Norton is probably as highly tuned as you would want to go .
Frame technology , Norton far superior , BSA second , Yamaha a very distant third .

Riding pleasure : Norton first by a long way ,Yam and BSA about the same .

All of the above bikes could be trounced by a four cylinder bike ten years younger but that would hardly be a fair comparison .
But it would be interesting to compare them to a Kawasaki W650 and a New Bonneville .

Patrick,

I was talking about the WR250R (not F) which we are getting in the UK and Scorpa T-Ride. Scorpa has a motor at least derived from if not identical to that in the WR250F. Very light and probably very low. Links below:

Hi Ian,
Can you get a test ride on either of these bikes? Neither is very well known, so this might be a way of making headway in your thoughts.

It is not clear here why you are so keen on either of these two; I guess it is the Yam engine?!

Without asking you to write a book, can you explain a bit.

You did get me looking at a few more webpages, such as:-
> > > > Sherco Motorcycles Official Website < < < < (there are dry sump engine designs here as well!)
have you considered this manufacturer, or gas gas or...........whatever.

One, obvious, comment; any race based engine will require more maintenance, mile for mile, than a dual sport design and it will likely (almost certainly) be more frantic to ride. Therefore, take the R route rather than the F model?!!

As for off topic; this thread could run for ever - it started back at the beginning of this year and new models are on the way now for 08, as discussed elsewhere. Therefore, the thread has an indeterminate lifespan.:rolleyes2:

Rusting cars
 

Dodger,
I love it! Like me, you will remember when "Nissin" was "Datsun" (what kind of name is that for a car?) & Vauxhalls (Viva!!!) used to be rusting as soon as they were made (probably rusting while they were put together).

Hi Quastdog,

Your first point: Yep, so the thread could run for ever, or until there are no more opinions to be expressed.

Second point: Opinions are like a*seholes - everyones got one.

Good travels,

Hi Dave , I had Datsuns [ brake pads used to catch fire ] and a Viva and a similar Bedford van all of them were rubbish but the Bedford was useful as it carried my bikes to college !

Hello,

short after i bought a Yamaha TT600R (yes, kickstart...) for off-road fun next to my 1200GS, i decided on a trip through central america, starting in Mexico, ending in, euh, wherever i end up around Darian ;-)

Simple, light, cheap and reliable bike, and lots of aftermarked stuff to convert it to a decent travelbike to go to the america's.

Bought the (4000kms onroad) bike for eur. 2850,- and ordered approx. 1500 for spareparts, big tank, very solid panniersystem, center stand and other usefull bits and pieces. For eur. 4500 i'm ready to go.

I (still) think it is a good decision to go on a cheap low profile bike, but not entirely sure about the absence of the all-mighty-magic-button ;-)

good luck with your choice.

cheers,
Sander

Without this getting into a kick vs button debate, iv far prefer having a kick only bike than a button only.

As long as its easy to kick when your knackered that is.

Sure....any point of view is OK...but if your facts are wrong and your history or a bit off..May I point that out. Is that Ok? (by the way, I'm on drugs now)

Much of your post REPEATS what I've already said in earlier posts back in this thread. Check it out.

Thats funny, I didn't ever see Jap cars in the 60's or early 70's when I was in the UK. Far as I know, the Japs didn't do much at all with there cars there, even today you don't see many. Any Brit-O-Car-Files care to chime in?

Fact is, early Jap cars were stellar. Datsuns (Nissan), Toyota, Honda, simply
fantastic compared to the American (or any other car) cars of the time. I don't believe the UK had much experience with these cars back then....in the US we did, and millions of happy buyers made Nissan, Toyota and Honda what they are today. So I call BS on your claim, you are ignorant of the facts and I have about 20 million Americans who owned these early versions to back me up. Just because you bought some clapped out, used up, high mileage POS does not mean they were all that way. In the Us, they quickly went to the top in reliability. Hence there success today.

Yes, the finish sometimes aged, more so than a nice Bonnie, but the inards lasted. And if we want to talk about aging fast....lets look at Triumph top ends. Remember, there were about 5 or 6 times as many Triuimphs sold here than were in the UK. Fact. So we dumb ass Americans know something about Triumph of the 60's and 70's as well. This was the case for about 10 or 15 years. Logical, we have a much larger population, and Triumph's main focus was here, same with the Japanese companies. The Japanese all set up headquarters in my home town, Los Angeles.

The Z1? Man, they made plenty of useful bikes long before that mate. That was 1973! Same time the CB750 came along (a year earlier if I recall?)
I had plenty of decent handling Jap bikes in the 60's. CB160, CB250 Scrambler,
Suzuki X-6 Huslter, and more.

Don't agree about the electrics. I had Brit bikes from years: 1960 (Tiger Cub), '65 (Bonneville), '67 (Dayona 500), '70 (Rickman Metisse) '73 (TR-6) and my last...just sold a few years ago....'79 Bonneville Special. The Special was good. Only a few problems. Every other one caused problems, from Zenor diodes to blown bulbs, to broken/corroded wires...the lot. A great learning experience for me.

The only problem with several Jap bikes I had was a couple dead batteries and bad capacitor. Ride in rain all day and night. They just kept going.

You thought the CB125 Benely looked Chintzy? What about the CB400F in-line four? (I owned one)

I agree the early pressed metal frames and weird forks were crap. And as I said TWICE earlier.....the Brit bikes always out handled early Japanese bikes.
So, on those two issues we agree. I raced BOTH, so I have some
insight into this and its why I ended up on Bultacos and Hodakas. But my street bike? No question: HONDA. But soon the Japanese came on strong....by the end of the 70's they were dominant in every catagory of bike except cruisers.

You made a comment about British metalurgy...should I quote it back?

You'll never get me to say anything good about HD....but if you check racing history in the US, in certain types of racing, you see HD dominates. I'm talking about flat track which during the years in question was the most important motorcycle racing in the US.

Flat Track is where a few minor racing celebraties you may have heard of began....Kenny Roberts, Freddie Spencer, Wayne Rainey, Randy Mamola, John Kocinski and a bunch more American Flat trackers cum GP heroes...including Nicky Hayden....who rode....an HD! (30 years later of course) Remember Mert Lawill? (my neighbor) from On Any Sunday? Mert rode HD.

So HD won quite a bit here and did pretty well at Daytona as well. But to the guys I hung around and grew up with the most important racing was GP and the Island...Kenny was a Rebel...and rode a Yamaha, even then.

Your right, I was just laying out a back ground of the scene leading up to the failures of these companies. I've read about the poor quality due to worker dissatisfaction. All true I'm sure. Shame.

Sorry about the mining reference...no offence meant. I am a 25 year union member...one of just a few now in the USA thanks to Bush and his ilk. But the point was to illustrate the sad state of Brit industry then. (now at least you've got Triumph and Formula One, Indy Car, CART and more. About 75% of Americans have no idea that both Indy Car and CART use chassis and motors (mostly) built and designed in the UK.

I disagree.
If you read some of the books by the experts, they contend the big boys at the top knew perfectly well what was coming and let it happen...taking govt. bail outs and subsidies all the way till the end. No matter....my main point is that the Brit industry was in decline and finally went away. The details of exactly how it happened, in this case, are not that important.

Hey, a good friend had the very last Meriden Triumph ...not sure what it was called...it was black, a 1981 manufacture (or maybe '80) and had ....now get this...Bing carbs!!! It was brand new...good clean castings on the motor, nice wheels, disc brakes and a very different look to the seat/tank. Anyone know more about this bike? I've never seen another....and to think.....I could have bought it...cheap!

This is kinda a wash...both sides won. Some guy named Mike Hailwood did pretty good on Hondas at Daytona, and Dick Mann eventually switched to Honda too, IIRC. Both sides won stuff....but by the mid 70's the Brits were about done. And how were the Brits doing in F-1 (motorGP) by the mid 70's. In fact, what was the factory team to compete in F-1? and when? To me, F-1 MotoGP is what counts. Daytona, American road racing, all minor players at that time.

Everyone knows the Brits build the best handling chassis in the world (IMO) and are still damn good today.
Yes, with a hotter motor, could have gone far. But who in motorcycle racing is winning on a British made chassis?

I got a bit different slant on the history from Mike (Michelle Duff) who I met a couple years ago to review her book. And don't forget Suzuki, they were in there too, big time. Check your results. Yam
never used Brit chassis, nor did Suzuki. Evil handling piece of Crap? The Jap bikes just finished more...that's all. Especially the four strokes. Remember the old racer adage: First, you have to finish. Duff raced Arter Matchless/Norton for years before going to Yam. Read her book. (he is a she!! and charming and still fast!)

Cars were in there for historical perspective on those years...and a comment on British motor industry in general, and relevant to making a point.
Back to you mate.

The Harrier is great...I've seen it in action! Not sure we still use it....I think we have our own? You are totally correct about the yanks destroying the Brit aircraft industry. Boeing/CIA/DIA/NSA ??? Who knows, but the whole history has all the ear marks of their work. Remember how new Brit planes kept crashing? A very nasty business.

Read back a few posts to see where I explain how the Japanese got started in racing and their expertise in reverse engineering...not an original design thought in their heads....but they are just SO anal about quality and about
refinement. This is where the superiority lies.

True about early 400-4 cam chains....many made noise and ran poorly but few
exploded. My 400-4 required a new one and frequent adjustment. That was in 1975....When Bonnevilles and BSA's were losing bearings, bending valves and leaking like a seive....just to keep comparisons equal.

I had a '63 step through, 3-speed girls model, no clutch...in 1963. I guess I was a little more self confident than to worry what my "mates" thought. Since I could out ride most of them....they never said a word.

Took those 50's on surf trips to Baja with our older brothers. I was too young to drive. I rode that Honda from Ensenada all the way to San Felipe on the Gulf and back. Then down the coast for miles and miles looking for surf spots. Through the desert too, on the beach and sometimes in the water (low tide).

Fly off the handle? Are you quite serious chap? You need to grow some thicker skin Dodgey. I didn't think I was flyng off the handle....just a little back and forth...very friendly, spirited discussion.
Sorry to see you get so defensive.

Patrick:mchappy:

What year is your TT? Just curious.

If you have owned a few 600 or 650 kick start bikes, or some old
Brit bike singles like the 441 Victor or Matchless 500, then you should have no problem.

Mostly there is a routine to follow and once you learn it its' not too bad. Never kick without wearing boots. Mostly, the only time they are hard to start is when they have gone over. If the bike falls...pick it up quickly (if you can).
Turn off fuel right away. Wait. Be patient.

Modern dirt bikes have "Hot Start" circuits. If your TT is a 2001 or newer maybe it has this feature? Helps with starting when the bike is flooded from falling over.

For me, I like to do this routine with a fallen bike:

1. Turn off fuel
2. pick up ASAP
3. Rest
4. Throttle wide open (HOLD wide open)
5. Choke OFF
6. Compression release pulled IN
7. Kick 20 times gently, now release throttle.
8. Wait 30 secs.
9. Start normally, fuel on, no choke, NO throttle when kicking.

Cold starting should not be a problem if valves are adjusted, ignition is strong,
and carb is correctly set up. Fuel on, kick few times to prime using compression release, now, Choke on full, raise idle up one or two turns, kick firmly, do not twist throttle as you kick.

Good luck.
Patrick

Hey all...

I started this thread as a definitive bike thread. Lets please not dilute it will arguments and essays about old cars.
:offtopic:



Luv ya all !! :innocent:

Just another can of worms
 

Patrick ,once again you are making wild assumptions about what kind of vehicles I bought, how could you possibly know ? I didn't buy miled out pieces of crap, so get your facts right before you pass judgement .
My Datsun needed new wheel bearings every 3 months and the brake pads used to catch fire , reliable ? My brother sold his Datsun pick up at two years old because it was rusted out and wouldn't start in the rain .Oh but wait Patrick says there weren't Jap cars in Britain ! - So call me a liar !
Furthermore ,having driven in the UK for the period in question I know much better than you could ever possibly do, what kind of vehicles were extant at the time , so bullshit to you buddy .

Fact is this all sprang from one comment I made about Japanese metallurgy being substandard to British , which I still believe to be true for the period we were discussing which was post ww2 to the early seventies .

Please quote my words back to me and lets see where I mentioned the US !

I saw a great number of the racers you mentioned ,Kenny Roberts , Wayne Rainey , Kevin Schwantz , most of the British stars of the day ,John "Mooneyes" Cooper ,our local hero, beat Agostini in the Race of the Year so I know a bit about what bikes won what .
Didn't see many arses on plates .
The best racer I ever saw was Kenny Roberts ,racing in the snow!, at Mallory Park in the Transatlantic Trophy ,clearly a biking legend .
Ever heard of Colin Seeley ? Built frames for Yamaha engines , Harris ? -- no I don't suppose you have .
Mike Hailwood didn't win at Daytona on a Honda it was an MV , I know he raced the works Tri/BSA there but Dick Mann DID win on Honda and then switched to BSA to win again , do try to get things right Patrick old fellow .
I said the Honda that Mike Hailwood raced was evil handling ,not all Jap bikes , please try to read carefully what I wrote .

Sorry mate but the Benly was an awful looker and the 400 was known as a girl's bike .My opinion only- but if you liked them ,well that's OK .
CB 750s appeared in 69 , not 72 .

Now about BSA/Triumphs ,do you mean Norton Villiers Triumph or the Triumph Cooperative ?
NVT in the end was purely about asset stripping , but Triumph Coop was doomed because ,as I said, they could not see the writing on the wall . I don't have to read books about it , I followed it very closely at the time .

Brit planes crashing ? Yep possibly but which ones ? Shall we talk about Starfighters buddy ?

HD had to connive with the AMA so that they could race 750s against Brit 500s for many years . So HDs don't really impress me much although they did eventually get a good 750 built .Didn't they also get Kenny Roberts TZ 700 banned so that he had to go back to the Shell Thuett XS750 . [I've got one of his cams in my bike ]


Shall we go on ?

Hey Patrick I've got a really thick skin but a low tolerance for being called a bullshitter .
You covered every subject from planes ,cars ,coal , unions ,electrics , racing [ F1 and bikes ] even managed to invent things I didn't say .Wow !

Relax buddy .

So my suggestion is for you to fly over to France and stay at oldbmw's B&B , see if you can borrow his pipe and slippers ,relax a little ,have a cup of Ovaltine , take your medication and chill out .But be careful or Mrs oldbeemer might whack you with a slipper for being impertinent .

Sorry Ted -- off topic . How's your job/love life /trip coming along ?
Well OK ,I'm not really sorry .

Dodger and Mollydog,
I tend toward endorsing Ted's plea; these long posts are getting very confusing and a lot of people are too young to know what you are talking about! :rolleyes2:

I'm going back to the October 07 edition of "The Classic Motorcycle" now. :thumbup1:

Regards,

Well ,don't believe everything you read in that mag .

According to Honda, my CRF450X weighs 116kg so it certainly fits the criterion of being lightweight. Rightly or wrongly, I am taken by the idea of riding it back to the UK via Africa. If anyone can offer advice or opinions on this, I've started a CRF450X thread here.

Cheers, Stephan

No problem Dodger: I don't believe everything I read in any magazine, and I don't bother to read newspapers too often nowadays for much the same reason.
However, this month, there are a couple of things in the mag that I have some knowledge about and I can relate to them OK.
I don't usually read it anyway, but my mate may get a classic while I might, just might, take a look at a new RE.

Cheers,

You well may have to buy new, I have been scanning the ads for teh last two years and second hand Lean burn RE's are as scarce as Rocking horse manure, but do get the lean burn one unles period detail is really required.
Was a time when second hand RE's were in great abundance.. Usually now they only come up for sale when the owner has died.

sorry I made amess of my reply to mollydog, I tried interspersing my responses, but the system insisted on using the same font for everything.


I have just this minute checked Haywards, teh UK main Enfield dealers, these are s/h bikes in stock traded in for Enfields.

2005 Suzuki V Strom

650cc, blue, 22800m, tax, MOT
£3,295

2006 Yamaha Fazer FZ6

Black, 975miles only, top box, panniers
£3,995

2003 Suzuki GSX1000R

1000cc, blue/white, 4200m, tax/MOT
SOLD

2001 Harley Davidson FXDX Dyna Super Glide Sport

1450cc, black, tax, MOT
£6,495

2001 BMW K1200 RS

1200cc, yellow/black, 50200m, tax, MOT
£3,995

1999 Yamaha Fazer

600cc, red, tax, MOT
£1,750

1999 Honda CBR600

600cc, red, 8500m, tax, MOT, offered on behalf of private owner
£2,350

Happy hunting.

Thanks for that
 

An interesting list OldBMW: there seems to be some very low mileage bikes traded for an RE (or the dealer has been buying in bikes from elsewhere to keep up his stock?:rolleyes2: ).

It's early days for looking/consideration but I might get lucky and someone pops their clogs, thereby laying on a bargain of the year!

Despite all the talking and thinking and reading and looking at bikes I still end up buying a bike on instinct.

It may be of interest that in the classic mag is an ad for Hitchcocks - they do a conversion kit for the RE to give it a trials "makeover"; all for the princely sum of nearly £1000, excluding VAT.

Anyway, what is the deal with the lean burn engine? i.e. tell me more please.

Regards,