BMW Dakar Vs F650GS
 

Hi..

I'm a newby to the forum and very excited about the prospect of travelling from London - Cape Town in the near future.

I'm looking to buy a bike that would make the journey without too many problems. Seeing as I just started doing research and very ill informed I was wondering if anyone can explain the difference to me between BMW's Dakar and the F650GS.

I have kind of set my mind on doing the trip on a Beemer but seeing as they do not make the Dakar anymore I was wondering what I need to change on the F650 to make it a Dakar.

Your help is much appreciated.:smartass:

they also don't sell the F650GS any more. It's now a F800GS (two cilinder) which they name F650GS, surprisingly.

Buy a secondhand F650GS Dakar and be happy about it.

Google the "chaingang" for lots of F650 info. The bikes come in various forms:

Funduro 1993-99 chain drive single with carbs
CS 199?-2000 belt drive single with carbs (you don't want one, they are city bikes)
GS 2000-2008 an FI Funduro with the tank moved under the seat.
Dakar, a GS with 21" front wheel.
F800, 2008 on, FI twin 800cc
F650, 2008 on, an F800 with various changes the main one being a down tuned motor.

I assume you are looking at the Single Rotax GS versus the Dakar? The big difference is the front wheel size although some people claim the Dakars came with longer life shocks etc. Neither are current production.

I had two carbed F650's between 1995 and 2003. The first one was great, the second one died in Morocco from the waterpump failure you'll read plenty about on the chaingang site. All the rotax bikes have this potential problem so research it and carry the spares. Personally I'd go with the Dakar unless I was offered a Funduro with the Acerbis 27 litre tank.

Why a BMW? If it's the marketing about reliability, you want an R80GS. The F650 was designed by Aprillia and Rotax who taught BMW everything they now know about cheap plastic and monkey metal. Personally, if you are early in your decision I wouldn't discount anything. In particular I'd reccomend Yamaha XT's, that's the bike that I replaced the F650 with, they do everything pretty much the same but were cheaper and honestly better built.

Andy

Why a BMW? If it's the marketing about reliability, you want an R80GS. The F650 was designed by Aprillia and Rotax who taught BMW everything they now know about cheap plastic and monkey metal. Personally, if you are early in your decision I wouldn't discount anything. In particular I'd reccomend Yamaha XT's, that's the bike that I replaced the F650 with, they do everything pretty much the same but were cheaper and honestly better built.

Andy[/quote]


I guess the reason I'm looking at a BMW is that I see a lot of people doing a London - Cape Town jouney on a BMW.

I'd be interested to know which XT you got / would reccommend for a long journey such as this.

you could do worse than considering this type of XT:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...-sale-uk-36524

XT & TT share a lot , whereby imho the TTRE is one of the best XT's ;-)

F650
 

I travelled with a BMW F650 (Funduro) for 8 month through the Middle East (2001) and did a RTW in 2004/05. In total about 150.000 km. See Welcome to Wonderful Travels. I had some problems but no major ones. This are the advantages of the F650 Funduro:
- easy to handle.
- very reliable Rotax engine.
- carburators which can be maintained and repaired everywhere by people without computers.
- chain and sprockets which are easy to replace; much better than cardan.
- exhaust passes above engine instead of under the engine (better protected against stones).
The main disadvantage for lang distance trips is the small fueltank. I replaced the tank for an Acerbis 25 liter. This fuel tank is not produced anymore.

For my next trip (Capetown, 2009) I bought second hand a similar F650. Because I know and understand this bike. Not because it is "the best". What is "the best"? Each motorbike has its own problems. Comparing BMW with Japanese bikes (Honda, Yamaha), the BMW is a bit more reliable but spare parts are much more difficult to find than for Japanese bikes. Moreover, BMW is not a very responsive company. Don't expect much from them in help. Honda and Yamaha are much more helpful. So, if you don't have a "BMW"-history, think about Japanese.

Good luck, Mart Heijnens

Huh? Really? My impression is quite the opposite. You mention the upsides of Japanese bikes for overlanding, namely spare parts availability and responsive dealerships. My impression is that the Jap singles in general seems more reliable than the BMW's too.

NB: I haven't read or seen any test about this issue (I guess it'll be impossible to conduct such tests), so it's just my impression after having had an F650 and currently riding an XTZ, plus reading a bit here and elsewhere.

I agree with Andy .... I would look closely at what is going on out there. Sure, you see a fair number of mostly new, inexperienced riders on BMW's, and a lot of them are making movies, writing books and getting BMW sponsorship.

For a more realistic look, take a gander at the breakdown record on BMW's. Not a pretty picture over all. Many tales right here on HU about this very thing. Look up Maria 41's posts.

Don't go with a bike just based on how good it looks or because a few Flash riders have a slick web site (paid by BMW)
and you think it has some "Dakar" race connection. That's a lie too. But you'll learn ..... Your desire for a "Dakar" points to this. It's Hype mate. If you really want to burn money on the over weight and over priced F650, be my guest.

But the more you learn the more you'll figure out that not only is the XT or new Tenere' better but so is the Suzuki DR650 and Honda XR650L (or R) superior, cheaper to maintain and more reliable.

Did you know the F650 weighs about 65 lbs. more than a DR650 Suzuki? (Dry weights) Of course, this means nothing to you. It will, it will ...:Beach:

Check out Terra Circa and see what they are riding. Real riders, pushing hard and beating their machines. Guess what they are riding? Suzuki of course! :thumbup1:

Great movie, BTW. Very non Hollywood approach. Rated R ! :rofl:

Patrick :mchappy:

I agree. And also, my impression is that BMW overall, reach out to riders and help much more than any Japanese company I know of. But I'm new at this, just been riding them 40 years.

I've seen BMW cover older bikes out of the warranty period. *(they need to .... since they tend to have more problems!).

Look, the Japanese have been building small, reliable singles for 40 years. They have raced the WHOLE time. Does this tell you anything? When was the last time BMW won anything?
And how many singles have they built? All I can say, its a good thing Rotax built the F650 engine (early ones). Once BMW took it over, some problems came along, no? Rotax are doing really well, witness Aprilia and the new Buell.

The Japanese always are doing serious R&D and evolve their bikes quietly, based on what they've learned from racing and winning. They don't care about BMW (BMW represent less than 3% of total market share world wide) .... but they live to beat the other clan, uh, company. The Samurai culture lives on!

Patrick :Beach:

I own a F650GS and loved my bike & vowed that I wouldn't replace it for the world. I've spent alot of money getting my bike adv. ready. So when my wife and I committed to do an extended trip, we had to decide, 1 bike or 2 & whether we stick with what I had or try something completely different.
We settled on a DR650 for her, cheap to pick-up, parts & accessories cheap in comparison to a BMW. Easy to maintain as I am not that mechanically minded and I find this bike simple as well. I have been sold on this bike, so much so, we are getting a 2nd one soon. There are many other options similar to the DR.
Imagine how much you could save and add time to your travels!!

One of the last XT600E's. At that point the TT's too new, but I think have since been proven. I'd also go back to the original Tenere's as you get the bigger tank and kick start.

There is now the issue of age though. For a long trip I'd rate the R80GS and original Tenere above anything made since. They were simple and reliable. BUT, you are now in effect taking a classic bike! I think the second generation of FI bikes like the new Tenere and F650/800 have the potential never to need touching mechanically (hence no worries that you need to know three weeks in advance that it'll break so you can get a loan and book in to the Uber dealer), but this isn't proven. Th first generation FI bikes gave us the horror stories about even the dealers not understanding them (I know of a Guzzi that spent 9 months off road).

I'm riding a Bonneville as I'm getting R80GS/Tenere technology on a 2004 bike. This is fine for me with the sidecar but I don't think the choice is there for a solo unless you do want a road bike.

BMW dealers vary. Alan Jefferies at Shipley I found useless. Rainbow at Rotherham tried but had too much work. Harvey's at Grimsby couldn't do enough for you. BMW Trondheim were great and I've heared many a good thing about BMW Passau. I think this is true for any company, so wouldn't base a choice on the dealer unless I was buying something that was going to be ued within a hundred miles of home.

Hard choice, so like I said in the first post have a good look at what you can get for your money then choose.

Andy

Ok... It seems that BMW may not be the right choice and I thank everyone for their help and sharing their knowledge on this matter.

I didn't want to buy an old bike. I was thinking of spending about £5000 on a good quality second hand bike with not too many miles.

My question to everyone out there... if you were to do this trip to Cape Town in ungodly conditions, you need comfort, you need sucurity, you need reliability, spares, and mostly a bike that you can ride for many years to come....

What would you buy with £5000?? Its Africa....:censored:

I'd say a Guzzi Quota, obviously, but then I'm half crazy anyway.

I think this one will suit your needs (I have one myself ;-), the Yamaha XT660Z Ténéré.

http://www.yamaha-motor.co.uk/Images...m46-209465.jpg

Long range (450 km + per full tank), long service intervals (10000 km, 20000 between valve adjustments), built for ease of maintenance, bomb proof proven engine, etc. Price: GBP 4899,- at your nearest Yamaha dealer.

Your instincts are good, newer the better is a good strategy. Hans has picked a good bike for you, IMO. The new Tenere' will be hard to beat. With BMW, to me, its about value for money. The Yamaha gives you more bike and fewer headaches later on.

The Guzzi idea is OK if you know, love and understand the Guzzi. But still, a bit on the heavy side perhaps?

If set up correctly, you should not need many spares. Tires are your main concern. Expensive and hard to find. Think about mailing them ahead? Or? With bark busters fitted, your bars, levers and instruments will survive a crash. Cables no problem until three or four years out. You may bend a shift lever or punch a hole in a case, or break a tail light, but decent guards can help prevent some of this.

A ton of info on prepping bikes here.

Treat yourself to the Tenere' and spend the money you've saved by not buying the BMW on the most important things ....
more travel time! :thumbup1:

Patrick

Treat yourself to the Tenere' and spend the money you've saved by not buying the BMW on the most important things ....
more travel time! :thumbup1:

Patrick[/quote]


I've been having a look at the Tenere. It's a stunner and unbelievable that it cost the same new as a second hand BMW.
Busy reading the reports but you guys have done well to change my mind.
I think I'll buy one in the new year when there are a few around with 1 -3000miles on the clock. Then spend some cash to get it Africa ready.

I'm so excited!:clap:

And for us short ones "off the road" has just manufactured a 35mm lowering link for the rear. http://www.offtheroad.de/ Makes the seat a slightly less bxll breaking 860mm.

Well done. A good choice. (Another one won over from the Dark Side...;-)

Now, get over to the XT660.com forum and seek out all the specific info you want and need regarding the Tenere.

I've been having a look at the Tenere. It's a stunner and unbelievable that it cost the same new as a second hand BMW.
Busy reading the reports but you guys have done well to change my mind.
I think I'll buy one in the new year when there are a few around with 1 -3000miles on the clock. Then spend some cash to get it Africa ready.

I'm so excited!:clap:[/quote]

Now that sounds like a plan :D

Enjoy yourself :D

Sure you don't fancy trying a Triumph outfit? Much harder to fall off, plenty of space for the essentials (G&T etc.) and not much heavier than the Guzzi Quota :innocent:

Andy

If I should cross Africa with a single it would have been with F650GS or an old XT.

The new XT is the most interesting single which have been introduced in the last years but it’s still a new bike and you will not find someone who can serve it properly before you reach South Africa, maybe Namibia.

Despite what people says here the “old” 650GS has proven to be a reliable bike which easily can do more then 100kkm. The police in Kenya and Zambia (and maybe other places) use some kind of F650GS so it’s possible to buy some parts from the police.
Remember that the locals in Africa don’t run big bikes and you will probably not find a bike-shop that sells parts before you get to South Africa or Namibia. Even tires, chain and sprockets are close to impossible to find in the “shops”.
Most African countries have a BMW-shop (there are always some rich guys that want BMW-cars). The shops normally don’t have spares for bikes (they have a few parts in Nairobi and Zambia) but they have the channels to order them. It’s no problem to order parts from Europe but sometime customs could take time – and money.


A friend of mine recently bought an F650GS with 140kkm.on the clock, beside the clutch and a top gasket the engine was untouched.
The plan was to set it up with a TT39 kit from Touratech, the bike would then have a range of 1000kms which would be outstanding in the bike-world. The range would make it possible to go places in Africa where unsupported bikes normally have to stop. Maybe it’s possible to convert some of the tanks to water; it would have been a nice desert-cruiser.
Anyway, he didn’t like to drive a single so he changed it for a 1986 R80 G/S PD which gives more comfort, same offroad abilities and it’s easier (and cheaper) to maintain.


For some reasons a lot of people that drive jap-bikes tends to bash BMW. My BMW has made 200kkm through three continents and 60-70 countries, it’s not outstanding in the BMW-world but when did you last see another bike with the same records?

Well - BMW is the Dark Side, after all..

Oh, btw: Here are a bunch of Guzzis with a couple of miles on the clock.

http://www.guzzitech.com/100k/Thumb_Guzzimoto2.jpg

Bill Stokes' '73 V7 Sport has more than 300 000 miles on the odo. Photo: GuzziTech.com

I did a lot of research into the best bike for my needs. I seriously looked at the Dakar, but the prices, even second hand, are crazy. If I had the money, I would definitely have gone for the new Tenere, no question, no contest. Ended up buying a second hand Pegaso Trail. Mainly due to it being my first bike; very reasonable price; it also has the same engine (?) as the Tenere. Very happy with my choice, but I still lust after the Tenere; maybe next year:thumbup1:

Sorry Indu, I should have written "when did you last see a jap-bike with the same records?" :-)

We are still talking about offroad touring bikes, right?

Ok. Let's have a pissing contest. But then let's compare apples to apples, pears to pears - not multi cylinder bikes vs singles.

Dirk Egli's Honda Africa Twin has more than 240 000 km's on the odo, including km's racked up during the last seven winters.

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/1...640x480yx9.jpg

His is not alone. AT's are known for being able to withstand use and abuse for years and years. Just change the oil, chain, sprocket and the odd fuel pump, and off you go.

I agree, The AT (and TA) are both solid bikes that unlike the singles from the same company will last for a long time. Both should be considered if you look for a twin.

Personally I find the AT difficult to drive in rough terrain but some people manage it: YouTube - How to handle a Africa Twin

Damn, those guys know how to handle 200 kg + worth of Africa Twin! Great vid, thanks!

There are offroad bikes of all other brands that have set such "records", it's only they don't have the same marketing and/or the same fanclubs as the germans to spread the word on all forums.


The only bmw that was ever truly reliable was the K75/K100 series.

Sorry, my experiences are from people I have met and bikes that I have owned.

I’m not a fan of fan-clubs, but the Ks are nice bikes :-)

Those words prove the only people who really know something or two about the reliability of BMWs are those who actually have owned (various of) them. :)

Have you?

I'd say the R1xx0 boxer twins are among the most mileage-eater reliable bikes currenty around. One good example here - currently 420 000 miles (672 000 kilometre) R1100GS, even pistons and rings are original. (Seen some 300+K boxers, and lot of 100+K which is rather regular among older boxers) So out of curiosity, has any jap big-traile twin has done similar mileage without any breakdown or major work done on the bike, how many chain sets?

And it's so funny yet ironic to read mr. Mollydog is at his famous BMW-bash cycle again :taz: so here we go through all over it again... again he comes bashing BMW with wrong facts. :oops2: When's BMW last won something? Well, two days ago, showing KTMs and all japs their rear-light. And it's just one of the series-wins and they're leading the series with single-cyl bike. Not bad for a maker that makes just few percent of the bike's sales in the world, is it? You can read about their racing activites here.




Now some offtopic :) :

Uganduro: Spreading words - yeah I do agree BMW are particulary good on the sales ads, but by owning both jap and BMW bikes I also know BMW users are way more enthusiastic than an average jap bike user that changes his bike every year or two because of boredom, bikes are mostly sold with small mileages (and sold dirt cheap since mostly jap bikes don't hold their aftermarket price) and thinking-assuming they should be reliable. While BMW owners keep their bike for ages and clock up huge miles, 100K miles is not a factor for many users I know, and the bikes have been realistically proven reliable. Something you don't see that often on jap bike users (again not bad for a maker that makes just few percent from all the bikes is it?)

Unlike the japs that can leave people just bored, with BMW bikes there are mostly only hate-OR-love fold, since they're so different. And you get reactions about BMW accordingly in every media channel, be it forum or a mag.

BMW users praise their bikes more than anything else, jap users do it too, but mostly never with that kind of enthusiasm as european bike users (not just BMW). While owned both BMW and japs, in all those years, the main difference I've picked up is: jap users bash other (mostly european-made) bikes, while european bike users praise theirs, they normally don't bash others. IMHO, this says thing or two about the personality attitudes of different "schools" of bikers.

So IMO this describes the attitudes of people in the forums about european and jap brands (with american HD skipped out which is all different story). And you have to consider it on choosing your bike - different schools of bikers always argue (by brand/prupose etc of the bikes), and it's hard to pick up the truth. So the best way would be don't listen the forum-bollocks - go test ride all of them and decide yourself!

Others are not you, each person has it's own vision and viewpoint of things.

So your own reality is your best friend :)

Ride safe, Margus

R80/100 bmw owner usually don't make fun about chain sets. Before the average chain set is to be renewed, they need a gearbox revision, not to mention the various oil leaks in parts that I don't know the english terms for.

R1100 models? .
According to a rider "enquête" of a magazine in belgium (in 2000 or so!),
had 25% - I repeat: 25 per cent - of the respondents a ....

....

new gearbox.
Some respondents, were on their 3rd gearbox.

The paper cilinder head gaskets were not so reliable neither.


The magazine stopped doing such enquetes after that disastrous result for their biggest sponsor.


Don't know anything of your advrider forum, but IF there are many bmw riders, there will be several threads about gearboxes - from R80G/S to R1200GS A.

I actually love bmw's. Had 3 of them, wouldn't have wanted to swap with any comparable bike from whichever make/country.

but I would not recommend the 2 cilinder models for reliability.

My gearbox (R80) is never opened, mileage 202kkm.

There is one puddle of oil in my garage – under my Yamaha but it’s still a funny bike!

These posts also crack me up, they really do.

One of the things I greatly admire in the people who are about set off on their first journey is that they are open minded, receptive to input and don't carry all the biases that the rest of the crusty old crowd do. We could all do a little better at retaining this trait.

It is natural to form a bond with a brand, especially if it carries you through some tough places and saves your bacon more than a few times. Afterwards, it is through these rose colored glasses that we forever view the brand, and sometimes the model.

To group all the various models of any manufacturer, for all the decades of production, under one heading is pretty much meaningless. So to say that BMW makes reliable bikes is an incredible, and incorrect generalization. Even more incorrect is to lump all "japanese" bikes into one category and make the same generalization. I'm sure that any one of those companies, for example Honda with their incredibly long and deep history, would take great exception to being told that they are no different from Yamaha. You have to look at the make and the model and the year. From there, you can begin to draw some meaningful comparisions.


To the original poster, if you go with the Tenere, it would be an excellent choice. In reality, you would be hard pressed to make a poor choice with modern bikes. In fact I would say that any person contemplating a long trip spend a little time on research, pick any one of the common choices of bikes, and then spend a lot of time honing your skills. For every hour you spend faffing on the interenet, that is an hour that you could be spending learning how to ride a bike in various conditions, fully loaded and offroad. You can't practice a lot of those skills enough, many things happen in a split second and you have to have imbeded those skills and keep them practiced so that when the Egyptian truck driver comes hurtling at you at night with his lights off, you react appropriately and save your skin.

In addition, the other area to spend more time on is the mechanics of your bike once you buy it. I can't tell you how many people that I met that professed that they secretly feared the black box of mechanics. We all do to some extent, but you should mess around with your bike enough so that your heart doesn't stop everytime it drips a bit of oil or sputters a bit. Some, have been fearful enough that prior to the trip, they have never even have fixed a flat tire.

Additional random comment, I would say that last year the most common touring bike I saw in Africa was a KTM. Maybe ten or twenty years ago most bikes were a BMW but there are so many good bikes from so many manufacturers that this has been diluted. BMW will regain it's dominant position in the adventure touring segment with the 800GS, which is great because they are one of the few companies that is actually dedicated to serving this segment, but the days of almost exclusive single brand domination are over due to the evolution of the industry.

I've owned 2 and I highly recommend 2 cylinder BMW for its superb reliability IMO :) For solo riding they maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but if you often do 2-up riding as well, then they're among the best bikes available.

1100 models from '97-'99 that have all the teething problems sorted and probably among the most reliable BMWs ever.

My last one '98 R1100GS was 60Kkm before crashed. Current one is 80Kkm, also '98 R1100GS. Not a single problem. And the conditions where I live are third-world - around half of the roads are gravel, all secondary tar roads will vibrate your teeth off, only the very main highways are torelable for any western-world rider.

I ride around half of my mileage in potholed-corrugated gravel roads. And in those particular conditions I've found (in biker-mythological terms: surprisingly) it's the jap bikes that start show their weak spots while my BMW goes on without any trouble or a sign of weakness. At least my jap did, it started to fell apart less than 50Kkm before I quickly sold it. (Did I mentioned it was Suzuki?)

Just some examples from my pictures. You'll get:

Snow:
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...u/DSCN0744.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...DSCN0746-1.jpg


Highspeed dirt:
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m.../KF/img210.jpg


http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...ugu/img208.jpg


http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...ugu/img131.jpg
The best stability spot is between 120-140kph and engine just sings around calm 4Krpm.


Rocks:
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m.../KF/img134.jpg


Sand:
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...u/DSCN1562.jpg
Even with massive 41 litres of fuel on board the 1100cc boxer has amazing agility in the sand and can keep up with lightweight singles while it's a superior tourer on hard-surfaced roads by far.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...u/DSCN1545.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...ugu/seeria.jpg
Now with smaller 32 litre tank.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m.../017-Small.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...u/IMG_0922.jpg
It'll go anywhere where rider tells it to go.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...u/DSCN1555.jpg
While Suzukis need pushing.

Some other typical roads, mix of all - sand, gravel etc:
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...u/DSCN1532.jpg

In those conditions my jap bikes haven't proven to be exacly reliable, even when not counting the mythical-reliability as they supposed to be very reliable bikes in "common bikers-mythology" :) Also some of my friends having jap bikes I see surprisingly lot of problems in the conditions we have here if boys take their toys to real harsh conditions offroad.

Bikes maybe last long on the US and western-europe's smooth roads, but here things tend to play out differently.

So from my experiences, I'm not particulary a believer of jap bike's reliability myth. Well it's not bad, it's sufficient, they're made by man afterall thus they can't be perfect like any other bike, but still they're nowhere close to the reliability level as most of bikers are "made to believe" or assume they are.

Just my 2c.

Hope this explains my point of view.

Margus

Most all the negative feedback about BMW comes from actual owners of the bikes who have become feed up.

Also from dealers, who deal with BMW every day and know the dark secrets. Go to any big BMW rally and talk to owners .... then you learn about a few of these "secret" problems that officially BMW claim do not exist. This is not new, been going on for years and years and is very well documented.

BMW has a whole promotion industry based around long distance riding, a manufactured mythology of Adventure combined with the delusion of superiority. This master race allusion tends to upset some people. I just can't imagine why? :frown:

The long distance element is a keystone of their corporate culture. Go to any BMW rally, they give awards to longest distance and such. They have had BMW club publications for 40 years promoting the bike and its long distance heroics. BMW gmbh. often sponser many of these publications and clubs.

Check out the RA (BMW riders Association) or the big one, BMW MOA (BMW owners of America) both these clubs are huge and each have a slick, well produced monthly magazine. Big money mixed with a nearly super nationalist zeal for all things BMW.

The Japanese don't do much of this sort of flag waving Horse shit. Honda has a couple Gold Wing type rallies each year but that is about it. Japanese efforts go a different direction .... and purposely so. They let sales numbers and race wins do the talking.

The big four decided long ago to leave BMW alone and not go in direct competition with them. They realize the world and motorcycle industry need small companies like BMW and KTM and Husaberg to keep things interesting and foster innovation.

This is why Yamaha bailed out Ducati in the 80's and why other Italian marks have miraculously risen from the ashes with untraceable money from banks who have no money to lend but somehow came up with some to revive companies like Benelli, MV Agusta, Laverda (now gone), Moto Morini and a few others. Am I saying this is all Japanese money? No, but some of it is. A lot of it is Chinese money, like Benelli. Now owned 100% by Chinese moto company. But of course the Chinese have a different motivation, and one not nearly so benevolent. $$$$$$$

Where do you want to start? How about the Honda CB360? No one crowed about this bike or got a hard on doing big miles, but these bikes were around for decades, in the millions, quietly running on for years, without a dime spent on maintenance.

Many unsung stories beyond that here in the USA. Big country, lots of disposable income. Dozens of Jap twins have done millions of trouble free miles. But so what? Most riders don't care. They just ride it.

Gold Wings probably hold most "records" for any longevity contest you want to invent. But nobody really gives a crap about that sort of BS, only the BMW Hard-Ons care about that.

More recently regards twins? the Suzuki Vstrom's both are doing big miles and most importantly NOT having problems. Anytime you would like to compare dealer visits over a 3 or 4 year period between any BMW twin and any Vstrom, well, be my guest. Of course, you must also look at the Africa Twin and Trans Alp Hondas. Big miles, low maintenance examples of both can be found still on the road.

And Margus, you said :
"has any jap big-traile twin has done similar mileage without any breakdown or major work ..."

Would not this statement, by definition, leave BMW OUT! ??:innocent: Older BMW's need lots of maintenance and component replacement. Breakdown's? Uh, yes, indeed! At least most of the examples you see still on the road have been rebuilt and fixed many times over. So lets figure in another element here: Nostalgia. BMW guys tend to be a nostalgic lot who enjoy putting cash into an old, heavy outdated heap of crap. Fine. More power to them. But if you're looking for problems start here:

Shall we look specifically at BMW electrics?:rofl:


That's funny Margus! You give us an official BMW web site reporting on a "Cross country' race in GERMANY. :confused1: I've never heard of this series. Is it run on pavement? In Germany NO off road "Cross Country" races are allowed, no? !Verboten! Is this an FIM backed series?

Also, never heard of any of the other riders, except Kriss who is a pro out Cherry Picking for BMW. A ringer.

Hey Margus, lets look at some real races now ... that have real competition.
Show me where BMW is in the results for the ISDE enduro's the last ten years and lets see how many BMW turn up in the results here. :confused1:

Now lets broaden the view a bit and check out the World Enduro series results from last 5 years or so. Now check out: World FIM Motocross series, USA AMA Super Cross, AMA GNCC series, AMA enduro series and AMA outdoor motocross series, Baja / SCORE :1000, 250, or 500.

Any BMW's shown there? (somebody did enter a twin in one of the Baja races!)
Now, should we begin with road racing? Lets compare world championships, shall we? In fact, pick any race series world wide. How many times does BMW appear?

Yes, BMW are now making a dirt race bike. And YES, it is on a fast development track and will compete. So lets wait (we've waited 40 years already) and see if they can match results from years ago in ISDE where they actually did OK ..... that was in the 50's, no?. My guess is they will need 5 years to show any sort of consistent results in a variety of legit race series world wide. This plus lots of money, the best riders and some luck.

BMW are new at this and have there own "superior" ideas about how to build a good dirt bike. Let's see how it goes, shall we? And by the way, what happened to their World Super Bike effort this year? They said they would be ready to win, but now have put it off yet again for another year???:rofl:

Sorry Margus, no one takes BMW seriously. Zero credibility in any race environment. This is just the reality, not hyperbole and nothing at all against folks who like to ride the bikes.
They are beautiful bikes ... just not for everyone.

To Pimpyoda:
I say get out there and test ride. Its the only way to know what bike you actually like. Spec sheets are a salesman's best friend and the bane of any potential owner as they really cloud your judgement.

Also don't be influenced by the BM bashing brigade. I think its a shame that, on a site where one is supposed to promote open-mindedness, there is so much prejudice toward a badge, usually resulting from the marketing strategies of a given manufacturer and, it seems to me, based only on "impressions" or one experience!

Some jap bikes are good, some German bikes are good. I think that reliability is a pretty subjective thing. I say this having owned many bikes: Jap, German and now even Russian!!

Yes, Jap engineering is relialbe, but typically not so many jap bikes reach mega miles. They cost less, but re-sell for less. Mechnically, they may be sound, but cosmetically they suffer. Honda are excellent, but while some might denegrade BM for this fault or that, I find it extraordinary that after all these years Honda still have the same basic faults on some of their bikes: reg-rectifier, or fuel pump!!
Arguably, lasting finish is only really comendable on Honda and BMs in my opinion.

Now I do not think that BMs are any less reliable. On the contrary, the one I owned never really missed a beat (R1150GS) I would not necessarily buy a new 1200 series, but then I would never buy a new bike ever again after loosing 35% on my new Suzuki in the first year, back in 2000.

Why is it that a huge majority of Governments in the world supply their police with BMs or Hondas? They're not just in it for the marketing.

Bottom line if anyone tells you "all blah-blahs are bad, all blah-blahs are good", take their advice with a very big pinch of salt: the world is not that black and white and it does not reek of an objective opinion.

You don't even have to go for an off-roader (although some off-road ability is recommended!). I met people riding all sorts including Yamaha Diversion 900s, and a Harly Road King type: all going full off-road!!

Get out there and try a few bikes. See which are comfortable, see which have a decent tank range, see which the least modification or which have the easiest tyre sizes to find etc, but don't believe all the hype you hear.
If you fancy a challenge: do it on one like mine!! Ural Motorcycles Europe | Sportsman

On an aside, I don't recall any manufacturers really having a viable RTW option when certain famous people were choosing bikes for their TV program RTW trip, so its not surpirsing they went for BMs: the only other manufacturer (KTM) did not even have faith in their own bikes to finish the trip!!! Certainly none of the Jap manufacturers had a full-on RTW option to pitch, only road-biased wannabees.

[quote=
Bikes maybe last long on the US and western-europe's smooth roads, but here things tend to play out differently.

Just my 2c.

Hope this explains my point of view.

Margus[/quote]



Hi Margus,

Lol, I'll let you guys continue to argue amongst yourselves but I wanted to first comment on the great pics, looks like some awesome riding.

I do have to politely and kindly suggest though that if you ever get the chance, you are welcome to come over to an often forgotten country called Canada. Looks like you have great fun on the roads in Estonia, and if that is the riding that you get in the 45,000 square kms in Estonia, imagine what you can get in our little 10,000,000 square kms. Much of the northern geography would be familiar to you and remind you a bit of home and the surrounding countries that you ride in.

As you know though, the northern weather is tough on roads so there is plenty of fun stuff to ride. In fact, with all the old logging roads, mining roads, exploration trails, it's would be impossible to ride it all, and the best roads aren't actually roads at all, they're trails at best. And since we don't have many people, there are only a few smooth, main roads inking everything together.

It is indeed tough on bikes, all bikes. Our little experiment shows that they all break down eventually, and even quicker if you ride them upside down.:)

I know that you are trying to match some perhaps overly strong statements with counter arguements of your own, but it certainly isn't a widely held view here that there are performance or reliability issues for motorcycles manufacturered in Japan, when those motorcycles are ridden under long and difficult conditions. It's perhaps too broad of a generalization to begin with, but in the end of the day, modern manufacturing techniques have resulted in most motorcycle brands being clustered at the high end of perfomance and reliability. Mostly the arguement is whether one model is marginally more reliable than another, not whether one is reliable or not.

Look forward to seeing you over here, we'll even lend you the beemer so that you won't get bribed in the future by a photo of you sitting on a Japanese bike.:)

To the original poster, if you go with the Tenere, it would be an excellent choice. In reality, you would be hard pressed to make a poor choice with modern bikes. In fact I would say that any person contemplating a long trip spend a little time on research, pick any one of the common choices of bikes, and then spend a lot of time honing your skills. For every hour you spend faffing on the interenet, that is an hour that you could be spending learning how to ride a bike in various conditions, fully loaded and offroad. You can't practice a lot of those skills enough, many things happen in a split second and you have to have imbeded those skills and keep them practiced so that when the Egyptian truck driver comes hurtling at you at night with his lights off, you react appropriately and save your skin.

Well said MountainMan. I have been round the block and have been building up scramblers (as we use to call them in SAfrica) since the age of 16. The only problem i forsee is that I can take a 2stroke engine apart blindfolded and growing up movin to road bikes (and doing my bit for grey imports), I have always had someone else do the work.
I will def go do a mehanics course as this is essential to my travels. I'm blessed as I'll be driving to Cpt with my brother who has recently bought a Toyota Landcruiser VX Turbo. 96 Diesel. (he's so proud) This means I can stick as much spares as I like on his roof for when that dreaded time comes...breaking down.

I'm taking everything in and perhaps once I arrive after 5 months travelling through Eastern Europe and Africa I too will become an EVANGELIST for whichever bike I'm riding...

Thanks for all the advice!!! I'm really appreciate it!

If you are taking race pedigree and translating that into taking a brand seriously, I think you need to wake up. Winning races may be very impressive but it has nothing to do with day to day riding any more than race bikes have anything to do with day to day bikes. Take KTM. They make great race bikes, but their road bikes have been fraught with reliaiblity issues... Ditto for Ducati....

What do you care if a marque pitches itself as "superior"? Honda have been doing it for ages, compared to the other big jap 4....

BMW have a small portion of the market, they sell bikes and have been for decades. If they were no good, they would have gone out of business... You don't last on Marketing alone for 60 years or so: look at the MGs cars of the UK. If you make a crap product you can bluff it for a while, but not for that long. Yet they are still here making very good, everyday, real world bikes.

I would find your arguement far more plausibleif you claimed that BMs were no better than others, rather than claiming they are crap: they clearly are not.
I hope this is not because someone on a BM called you names once... feels like a vendetta!!

Whether they are any better than others is another story, but they certainly hold their own....

"impressions'? "one experience" ? I think many riders, including me, have more than "impressions" to go on. And far more than one experience to form an opinion.

The internet in now the new X factor for such things. It allows the exchange of information at a very rapid rate. BMW forums are their own worst enemy. Read them and weep my friend. ADV rider is another site where tens of thousands of BMW riders hang out. A great place to see all that goes wrong with BMW's. Not one or two my friend .... but many many examples.

Also lets not forget about industry studies and feedback compiled by organizations who specialize in looking at Motorcycle industry economic health .... that is, they keep track of how many warranty claims a specific manufacturer has to pay out and keep track of how many bikes have repeat problems, and track what systems are acting up. The OEM's use this valuable feedback to correct problems and to learn how much defects are costing them.

BMW do this as do all big OEM's. BMW now carefully guard this information since they continue to come last in reliability and are tops in warranty claims. The Japanese are not ashamed of their track record, but don't really flaunt it either. To give an overall picture, Japanese companies generally have about a 3% breakdown rate, BMW about 30%. These figures from there own data.

Groups like the MIC (motorcycle industry council) and publications like Dealer News, sometimes get credible feedback from within the industry and then can show who is doing well and who is not. This information has been available for decades. Armed with this stuff it's not hard to see the facts about reliability. In the UK, govt. consumer depts. do similar studies on the motorcycle industries.

See above! Statistics gathered about bike problems, warranty claims, Lemon Law buy backs are all public knowledge, are NOT subjective delusions! They are facts from the manufacturers themselves. And just because you don't have this in Estonia ... does not mean it does not exist. It does.

You are misinformed here my friend. KTM have plenty of faith in their bikes.
What they lacked faith in was Charley and Ewan themselves. They also thought the project would cost them a lot of money. Seems KTM felt they did not have the proper backing to actually make the trip.

Obviously, KTM misjudged things in some areas.
But in some ways you can see their point of view. Two actors, one never ridden dirt bikes, the other a novice at best.
The project was not presented to KTM in an organized way so KTM figured it could only make their bikes look bad as Ewan and Charley seemed like amateurs.

KTM worried tha when the newbie guys crashed and got hurt, KTM would look bad or be blamed. When these inexperienced guys had breakdowns because the bikes were not maintained, KTM, once again, would look bad. So to them, it was a No Win situation.

And really, anyone who thinks BMW looked good in the LONG WAY ROUND,
is not paying attention. The most telling scenes come when the boys were suffering through the mud in Mongolia. I liked the part when Claudio, the cameraman, gets on the 180cc Minsk (after the GS had broken down and then the welder fried the ECM) and starts raving about how nice and easy the bike is to ride and how wrong they were on the GS's (Of course it only lasted a week!)

But the shots of Ewan crying while trying to pick up the GS pigs in the mud tell the truth. Some inexperienced guys thought this was funny. Ha Ha.
But anyone who has been there, on an overweight, overloaded PIG can see the BMW was absolutely the wrong choice for this ride. Not to say the GS
is a bad bike, just not a dirt bike. A vstrom would have had the same problems. (except the breakdown part!)
If I were organizing that trip I would have put the boys on Tenere's , and let the frickin' support trucks carry spares, luggage and AN EXTRA BIKE!

A KTM or about any Jap dirt bike would have made the trip a better experience over all, IMO.


Patrick :mchappy:

That's some serious shit you're talking....

I wonder if we had to take our meaningfull/less babble to BMW and Honda if they would care to comment.

Anyone know anyone In Germany/Japan?

PS: Let's not forget I was only trying to decide what to ride to Cape Town... but I guess my life may well depend on it.

Such information may well exist, but I see nothing in you post saying it backs your points. I'd also be intereted to see what sort of mileage these bikes get. Cetainly the majority of BM riders I have known over the years as a courier, as a traveller and a general biker has been that of above average miles and brand loyalty. Now why is that, if they are so bad?


That is the reason they gave, but I think you'll find that KTM reliability, being a marque based on engines that are rebuilt before the next race, have a pretty bad record by modern standards, and they are only just starting to get to grips with this and that is why they backed out. With significant engine issues within 6 months of ownership being a regular would you have offered your bikes up for the slaughter? I think this is far more likely an explanation.

They had plenty of backing from other companies, too and if they had never finished the odds are the programme would never had been aired anyway, so not so much to loose after all.

Same old story.
I, certainly, have never said that a GS would perform like a CRF450 in the dirt. That does NOT make the GS a bad bike. And for all E & C's newbie overland mistakes about packing there is no way a "Jap dirt bike" on the market at the time of that programme would have stayed in one piece with all the crap they carried. Basically there was NO viable Japanese alternative at the time. As for the KTM option, I have far more doubts about a KTM surviving out there on 85 octane than the GS.

Bottom line, even if it was not as easy as gliding over the mud on a svelte 250 2-stroke, THEY STILL FINISHED on schedule, on GSs.

The same way that I, a complete novice at off-roading had a trouble free trip on my "PIG", two-up with a fully loaded weight of about 450kgs in Argentina, including about 450 miles of off-road. Considering its robust build, I'd say the GS is an astoudnig bike to take what it does, in its stride.

Some of it was hard work, but I can say it was hardest because of my inexperience: the bike just shrugged it all off.

By all means dislike BMs, but I find you attitude so rigid, I can well believe BMW winning every championship, and you'd still claim they are crap.

I dislike some brands compared to others, but its never absolute, so please, restore may faith and help me believe you points of view are at least a bit objective:
Tell me something you like about BMW bikes...

I am simply providing industry feedback. Goes to credibility. What this says is that BMW are last in reliability based on numbers of warranty claims filed repeat dealer visits for recurring problems, or Lemon Law buy backs.

You hear a lot of smack online hacking up BMW, this just puts it in perspective with numbers from a credible organization.

BMW riders do big miles on their bikes. This is well known.
But they are not the only ones. As stated, see Gold Wing, V-Strom and a few others over the years. And don't forget HD! But this has been brought up before too. It's also well known they spend about three times the money on service and maintenance than a typical Japanese bike owner.

Brand loyalty? I never said ALL BMW's had problems .... just about 30% to 50% on average since 1995. So that leaves a fair amount problem free .... Like Margus's bike ....that apparently does not even need fuel! :rofl: Did you see him ride that deep sand! Wow, my hero!
Jeeesheesh! Two Estonians in one day! :helpsmilie:

Sadly, based on what I've seen, and following KTM since the 80's, I have to agree with everything you have said. And also agree that its' only recently they are getting better.
Like the GS, I like the bikes (I've owned a fee KTM's and ridden many)

BTW, I am in industry and write about and test bikes part time.


Yes, they did finish. And managed to turn the disability of the big bike into a positive. That is good film making!
I actually really liked the 12GS. Not so much the 1100 or 1150. I've ridden them both extensively. I just wouldn't own one. About one third of the guys I ride with own GS's, but they own other bikes too. The 12GS is a fun and capable bike, quite versatile in every way. But still, lots of stupid things still go wrong. Maybe you have been lucky with your BMW's?

Well, when they manage to win even ONE championship ... then we can talk. I like a lot of things about BMW, as said
above. But overall believe they are over rated, too expensive and not as reliable as they should be considering cost.

I'll do what I can!:innocent: I've personally owned about 45 bikes since 1962 or so. I've tested dozens more. I've raced flat track, desert races and enduro and moto cross over the years. Plenty of time on the racetracks too. But mostly I'm a street rider.

I love all bikes. Read my review of the R12GS sometime to see me gushing on about it. But I am not afraid to point out faults. The Germans hate this. I've been to intro's and seen it. Its ugly. The Japanese have a very different style.

I've also talked to some very senior guys in the four Japanese companies and met the chief engineers and CEO at Ducati. The Japanese don't tell a "Gaijin" much, but still, until you've visited a Japanese factory in Japan .... well you just have to see how they operate. (I was at Yamaha) I've also been to Triumph, BMW (and Mercedes).

I try to be objective. But I also get paid not to lie or sugarcoat a problem, which is hard to do sometimes. I hate to pan a bike. Like the 620 Ducati Monster, Triumph Bonneville America, or the Guzzi California, or several Jap cruisers or early KTM four strokes or Yamaha's TDM 850, which I owned and still panned. When journalists get together and don't like a bike, a feeding frenzy ensues. Ugly. But mostly the published result is far far milder version. Advertising revenues, you understand.

Patrick :mchappy:

Unlike me Warthog is native in English language and summed up everything well, straight to the point. Basically the same message I wanted to forward - european bikes are very reliable these days and every bike has problems, even Japanese bikes. And I also find it strange when someone tries distinctly to paint the world into black-and-white, by saying this is s*it and this is good. This is where I normaly get into arguing.

Looking all the discussions here also I now can clearly say Mollydog is just a BMW-hater, with no real data to back his sayings up (as always), only his "hunch": i.e. I've seen this and that, my riding friends etc scenarios where he gets his "reliable" data and figures.

While he hasn't owned any modern BMW himself. Ironic, isn't it? :)

So here we go.
 

Bollocks. With data taken from the thin-air. Where do you get your industry feedback? Are you the boss of consumer protection organisation? Details please!

Also complete false. My BMW has proven twice the cheaper to run than my japanese bikes thanks to it's long service interval, simplicity (dry clutch, shaft, oil-cooled). I hear the same tendency from other BMW riders. The cost may vary, but it's definitely not 3-times more expensive averagely!


Oh really? Why then all of your previous "BMW breakdown data" has been different in our previous discussions in various threads - do you have constantly changing numbers in your mind?


And another wrong fact - my bike takes 32 liters of fuel, haven't said anywhere it doesn't need fuel. Glad to be of help to be your hero :)



Wow, if I was the editor of the mag you write in and see how you, as a person, speciefically bash one brand around the forums I wouldn't let the articles go through seeing how radically anti-biased you are IMHO.

Maybe you should stick to writing thriller stories with random thoughts and emotions coming into your mind, with self-generated data. Apparently realistic and balanced things aren't your field.

Well OK me being as a regular everyday rider can be biased (and no doubt I am!) is maybe forgivable, but to be a biased bike mag writer (especially anti-type to one brand) to provide the message to wider audience, is it the right thing?



What happened now, trying to say a drop of positive about BMWs too in all that ocean of negative?


And so is the jap reliability over rated.

Price hasn't ever dictated reliability. Be it $50K customized HD with seized engine or a $50K limited-edition Honda with a broken camchain.



But you still haven't owned any modern BMW yourself in a long term to provide us the complete and realistic picture as a user. Changing bikes like socks don't get you far in understanding your bikes throughoutly. Especially in terms of reliability.


But you still lie. Why?

once the "Cardanshaft" splittered into pieces on my K100.
Every 10k KM the rear axle leaked all its oil (R1150). "Radialwellendichtring" the bill said.
The same R1150 had serious engine knocking probs. Couldn't be solved. Occured so often apparently that
bmw decided to introduce twin-spark from 2003 onwards... Bad luck for those with models '99-'02.

Two friends missed a motorcycle holiday respectively, because of a broken bmw gearbox (one R80, one R1150).

Another friend also needed a new R1150GS gearbox.

Unfortunately we trusted bmw, and didn't know the essential info that the only reliable bmw twin, is the R1100 built after '97.

My Suzuki had burnt electrics, friend of mine with complete burnt ECU. Suzuki electrics are legendary for me. ;)

How about rectifiers on Hondas, or fuel pumps? Clutches on V-Stroms, broken rear frames on Yamahas, bent or twisted valves on Kawasaki bikes?


2 of the guys I know had output shaft grinded on Africa Twins after harder riding - needs complete engine crankcase split to replace the bits ($$$).

Just some time ago a Kawasaki went with 3 gears grinded in the gearbox. It's good he could ride on in 5th gear only (after 3 days of work on the road completely spliting the engine, taking the shafts out and grinded bald the rest of the gears to make the engine to rotate again)

Or did they perhaps all blindly believed and trusted all the japanese reliability hype that goes around? :)

R1100GS model is built from 1993 to 1999. And definitely it's not the only reliable twin from their line. Some stunning mileages and superb reliability reported on most of models, from R65 to R1200, UKGSer is a good reading from owners point of view. As said '97-'99 spec model has proven itself very reliable for me as an owner - not a "third party" speaker who hasn't had any direct experiences with it.

To sum up: you can always select out the bad examples and hype them up, on any maker. But to know the real-data about the reliability of different bikes is just too complex picture to handle, and frankly quite pointless discussion as pointed out by Warthog and others. It'll depend on the build quality, owner's riding style and maintenance regularity-quality, but there are also dozens of other factors in play. By claiming: "hey, that guy had a broken down bike, I saw it myself, and it was a BMW (or a Jap bike)" analogy gets you nowhere in overall picture of the things.

It’s a shame that you have problems with BMW Uganduro, especially since Uganda is a country suited for big powerful offroad bikes.

Uganda, a few days after the mileage exceeded 100 kkm, all internals engine, gearbox, cardan ++ are still original (except for a clutch change prior to the trip because I didn’t expect the clutch to last the entire trip).
http://www.actiontouring.com/pic/ugamap.jpg



BTW: It’s a 1996, mileage is 202kkm and gearbox never opened….

This is a very odd phenomena! BMW riders seem to need to justify not buying the Yamaha, Japanese riders seem to want to defend against not buying the BMW. The physcologists would have a ball! Purchase guilt?

As an ex-BMW owner I have no hard and fast feelings. Yes I hated BMW switch gear throughout both R1100's I had and both broke down through various bits of totally rubbish quality. Likewise I loved both my F650's and only had problems with the last one. So four BMW's and I sold three for reliability issues and one because I was stupid and though more power was a good thing. This is a very small sample!

I've owned (still own) MZ's and Urals. The former are a dream if you like two strokes the later a nightmare, but in the right circumstances I can see myself owning one of the new Urals just for the technology. I love my Triumph but no way is it flawless, the wiring is **** and the silencers should come with a dustpan and brush for the rust flakes. I wish I'd kept my XT it's only flaw was a really cheap exhaust system. I've had a lot to do with Guzzi's but would have another Triumph simply because they are easier to live with day to day because more people bought them.

There is no right answer for me until you look at the purchase price. The BMW's are overpriced by at least £2000 and to me that IS trading on the badge and the myth of better reliability. Others may have different stories and will make different choices but I won't pay the extra when I know the bikes have similar issues to the cheaper Japanese or other European version.

The black stories thing is common enough. I used to work in the truck brake industry even having some dealings with BMW on car stuff. The way any corporation manages issues is very similar. First you deny everything because most problems ARE caused by misuse and stupid customers or dealers. Second you can't do anything as solutions take time to develop so you wait. Finally you need need a controlled introduction of the fix that matches what you have available. From the customers point of view you look like you don't care, then you look like you don't know, then you seem to sneak out a solution. My German colleagues were always very poor at this and very slow which added to BMW's "reliability image" will get people talking. The Japanese were much slicker but lower key at everything, mostly the presentation, but in reality achieved roughly the same. Hence BMW can look like sneaky muppets and Yamaha sell factory tours to US businessmen who have quality issues of their own!

Bottom line though is back to the physcologists. Don't feel you need to justify your purchase. If you bought a BM and like it that's great, if you like the yam that's great too.

Andy

Did i say anywhere that japanese bikes are more reliable than others?

I only said there are similar mileage record setting bikes of all brands & countries.


Did I say anywhere that bmw doesn't know how to make reliable bikes?

On the contrary, I said the K75/K100 really are admirable.
(but the japanese copy is also very, very good (honda ST1100))
The rotax F650GS also appears impressive - though i appreciate the simplicity of an aircooled engine.


I do feel bad when people engage me in intellectually unfair discussions by wanting to have it both ways.
One can't at the same time:
- call someone a liar because he bases himself on industry reports (which do exist, also at bmw) and not on "personal experience".
- call arguments based on those very "personal experiences" pointless/useless because one would miss "the whole picture";
& disregard hundreds of "personal experiences", gathered and weighed in rider reports & forum polls.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words , well maybe a video is worth ten thousand !
YouTube - SUZUKI DL-BMW 1150GS

Er, would this be a bad time to (re) post this??
YouTube - Hitler's got the wrong bike.
:devil2:

I'm sorry my friend, you are WAY wrong on this statement or perhaps you misunderstand?

I've talked and mostly listened to several high level Japanese mucky mucks from all four Japanese companies. I can assure you 100%, they DO learn from racing and DO use things discovered in racing to help improve and develop common street bikes.

This trickle down of technology is very real. I'm not talking about "day to day riding", like if you buy an R1 Yamaha you will now ride like Valentino. NO, I am talking about technical feed back that means years and years or solid reliability. I am talking about a bike that can take a beating, abuse, no maintenance for years and still run well .... as a street bike, not a race bike.
THIS is the part of the benefits of racing.

Of course some race bikes have little to do with the street version of that bike. The BMW Dakar bikes are a perfect example of this. These were "one off" examples, essentially. No relation to a production GS or F650. I've seen them up close in person and had a BMW team mechanic explaining the entire bike to us so I know exactly what these bikes were. (now all gone!)

But in many forms of racing, what you see are basically STOCK bikes on the race track. This is true for MOST racing in the world today.

Example: Super Stock or Production classes. These bikes ARE street bikes simply put on the track with better tires. In Moto Cross or super cross also, the race bikes are nearly identical to the bike they sell to the public.

I know, I've been there, talked to the Team boss for both Honda and Yamaha. I know exactly what is different and what is not. Mostly it is adjustment and fine tuning. The motors are all virtually STOCK!

Racing is a laboratory for the Japanese. They have a system for R$D which is quite amazing, and very few really understand it. Obviously you don't and I don't think you want to.

All true but I must tell you there is a BIG difference between the Japanese and the Italians and the Austrians too. Cultural mostly. Having hung out a lot with Japanese business men and worked for them and traveled with an official "Japan expert" just a tiny bit of understanding of their culture has rubbed off.

With the Japanese, business always comes first. So they race, but its all for business. If it does not show an advantage in business then they will not do it. The Italians, well, as you know: passion. The Italians are brilliant engineers, no question. But the things they learn in racing don't always go into their street bikes do they? We've all seen this. But you know, this is changing too! The DS1000 motor was the start of a change for Ducati. The Passion for winning MotoGP is still there but now the technical trickle down is being kept track of and engineered more and more into products they sell.

KTM I don't yet fully understand. But I feel they are making good progress.
Lets also consider they are relative "newbies" at making big twins. The Japanese have built and raced twins since the early 70's. I believe it takes time and the ability to perform and understand how to do valuable R&D based on feed back learned on the race track. The Austrians are inexperienced a bit here compared to Japanese. BMW? they have absolutely NO excuse for the poor performance of their bikes in the reliability area.

Electrics
Drive line
Fuel injection
ABS

These are things that should never, ever, for any reason ever given problems. Yet THOUSANDS of documented cases exist. WHY?:eek3:

The Japanese bike makers are ALL Huge, massive companies. Most are involved in other businesses. The motorcycle division is often the smallest, least important division. Buy they all make a profit.

Honda:
1. Cars, trucks
2. Bikes, ATV's, Scooters
3. Water craft
4. Generators and other power equipment
5. Indy Car and Formula One motors

Honda own Showa suspension, several Racetracks (Suzuka in Japan) and huge testing facilities world wide (like the very secret one in the California
Mojave Desert. I'm sure I'm missing a lot here. Honda are HUGE!

Suzuki:
1. Cars (Made in Korea and China)
2. Bikes, ATV's, mini bikes
3. Race tracks/testing tracks

Kawasaki (Kawasaki Heavy Industries)
Perhaps the biggest and most powerful of all the Japanese
motorcycle companies. Google KHI and see the web site.

1. Ships
2. Helicopters, business jets
3. Bridges and massive infrastructure projects
4. Motorcycles
5. Water Craft, other power equipment

Yamaha: (what don't they make?)
1. Musical instruments
2. Boats
3. Motorcycles
4. Generators and other power equipment.

Yamaha also own Ohlins, Swedish suspension maker.
Not necessarily so!:nono:
BMW motorcycle division have run in the red (losing money) for MOST of their history. It is only in the last six or seven years they are finally making a profit and not being 100% supported by the Car division. FACT.
So, it seems your arguement does not hold up 100%.

Also, BMW spend more money on ads than any one of the big four do. They use one of the most expensive Ad agencies in the world to create their ad campaigns. They also are the only motorcycle company to "cross over" into other market areas. (that means out of the motorcycle world) BMW ads can be seen in non motorcycle publications, on TV (not race events) and Radio.
None of the Big Four do this.

I never said they were crap, I simply pointed out that industry statistics show they have a poor record for reliability. Not crap. As I've said about 5 times in this thread .... I like BMW in some ways. I just would not own one. (unless someone else pays for the service).

I like the style and design elements on many of their bikes. They ride well too and have a nice refined feel. (when new). As a journalist, I don't need to own every bike I test to know what it is about. I don't review a bike I've only ridden one day (many do). Most test bikes I get I keep for a couple weeks or sometimes months. This was the case with the 1150GS. The R12GS we only got for about 10 days. I put over 2000 miles on it and had a nice 1100GS and another 1150GS along for comparison. This is how I test bikes.

Patrick :mchappy:

But you're not. You have not provided anything, despite me asking for facts previously. This is only hearsay, at present.

Wow, two models! Well, I stand corrected. Two models from Japan have managed big miles: I must be wrong, then... As for HD. They are grotesquely under-tuned. 60bhp from a 1.3 litre engine? no wonder they keep going , although the Electra glide we met in Argentian had nothing but problems...
And I must say, do not know if you speak for the US market or world-wide, but US roads are hardly the most taxing on the vehicle, are they?

Not so. Admittedly Dealer costs are high, but that is a franchise dealer: the bikes them selves do not require you to go to a dealer. That said, I have been fleeced by a few Jap franchises too: that is a western view on customer service rather than the bike manufacturer. So no points to either on that count.

My boxer twin had oil changes every 6000 miles to the regular 3-4K for Jap bikes. Spares such as pads, filters and the like were very reasonalby priced compared to the ridiculous Jap spare prices. But then this is how Jap manufacturers make their money: from spares, rather than only initial bikes sales, but then you know, this being in the industry...

In all honesty, ALL BIKE running costs are now ridiculous, in my opinion. When an indicator lense costs you £16 for a bike, but £6 for a car, you know you ar getting shafted....

DO NOT PANIC! You are not being targeted by a small EU nation.;) I am merely an Estonian resident. I am of Anglo-Franco stock...

That statement does not make any sense, i'm afraid. They never said it was a breeze: they admitted on camera that the bikes were very heavy, but the bikes got them, Ewan and Claudio (off-road novices like me) through Siberia, carrying shed loads of, no doubt, pointless, kit. End of. There was no sly fim making. They left on BMs in London, 3 months later they arrived in New York on said BMs: I don't see how they are supposed to have pulled the wool over our eyes and on what count.

What does racing have to do with making good bikes for the real world?!?
I just don't get it.

The whole championships business: now there is a marketing ploy and you seem to be falling for it...
Renault are a very successful race team in F1, as are Ferrari. Neither can be said to make a particularly relaible road car manufacturer.
Winning races is not the Holy Grail of building good quality bikes for the consumer market: look at Ducati: beautiful, go like the clappers, but add a spot of rain, etc....

Is this why you dislike their product so? You don't like their style? As for the alleged Jap, quasi-racist attidtude to the non-Japanese.... I don't see how this affects a bike's build, but i can see how it might affect your view of a brand.

But I'm afraid I do not feel objectivity in your statements and points. This is why I have reacted to them: they are very strong points of view and not always backed-up with fact, so far, and so I feel I need to call you on that one. There is very little give in your view of BMWs. It also takes away credibility, something you claimed to be up-holding, when you make derogatory statements about the owners of BMs like they are dimwits of some sort.

From another thread I believe:

You can't expect people to take your opinion as objective, as a journalist, no less, with those sorts of deep-rooted pre-conceptions. As I responded last time: I am not a rich wannabee: I worked my @rse off for 3 years, to buy my bike, kit it up, ship it and ride it.



A good point and an interesting spectacle, but I'd like to make my own position clear: I have owned a number of bikes. Liked some and disliked other. Most were Japanese and they make excellent bikes, then there was the BM and now the Ural. These too are excellent bikes, but they are not the same market.

I do not actually feel that BMs are any better than Jap bikes, and vice versa.
What gets my back up is when I see an arguement that does not seem reasoned or objective: prejudiced in a word. A mite strong, perhaps, but its what springs to mind....

Mollydog, it would probably help focus the discussion (and enhance your own credibility) if you could post some sort of source for your claims about warranty repair frequencies and such. Absent this, you appear to be making a lot of unsubstantiated claims in a perhaps over-loud voice. This does not make your claims incorrect, necessarily, but neither does it contribute to making your case.

I would suggest also that comments about people's nationalities are likely to be taken as offensive by some—especially when those nationalities are only recently emerging from political and cultural domination by historically brutal outsiders. Estonia fits this description. Lighthearted joking about such matters by Americans is probably less than appropriate....unless intended to deepen misunderstandings and ill will.

I've benefited personally from many of your posts here. I have no doubts about the sincerity of your hard-won beliefs or about your riding skills and experience. Nor do I doubt your obvious eagerness to be of help to other riders on this board, including those less experienced and skilled than yourself. For these contributions, I thank you.

I hope my mild interjection is taken in the constructive spirit in which it is intended.

enjoy,

Mark
(a DL650 rider, as it happens, who does not quite see the point to BMW's)

I read this info in paper form in Dealer News. Never saw it online. I'm sure it's available online but i'm not wasting time searching for it.

You really believe I'm making this stuff up, off the top of my head? All just a fantasy of mine, eh? And who would you believe? Hey, don't take my word, do some research if you really care.

Trust me, it is COMMON KNOWLEDGE in the industry. Every editor I've met is well aware of BMW's poor record and checkered history and continual poor showing in this area. BMW work hard to dispel it but there it is..... popping up again ... and again .... and again.

You and Margus really believe I'm a liar? That my goal is to make BMW guys feel bad! :rofl:

Cheap shot man.
There are far more than two Japanese models that have done big miles. I'm sorry if you guys don't get big four products in Estonia or you pay more for them. Here, they are relatively cheap and available in the, its mostly what sells. BMW's are out there too but around towns you mostly see Jap bikes.

And your right. HD guys do zero miles :rofl: I can see you really have done your homework regards HD guys and how much they ride!
Like I said, BMW= 3% of bikes in the US. HD? Take a guess Ein-stonia. :D

I guess BMW dealers in Estonia charge less? But here in the US it is the number one complaint among owners. Read any BMW forum/blog. Service prices are crazy expensive. Like $700 for a basic service.

Japanese dealers charge a lot too, but most common service parts are available aftermarket and are cheap (brake pads, filter). Hard to know for sure, I've not bought a part for any one of the dozen or so jap bikes I've owned in the last few years. You see, they just DO NOT FAIL!:thumbup1: GET IT?

You're complaining about OIL FILTER prices? We can choose about four different inexpensive aftermarket oil filters here. Maybe $5 each? Plastic parts too are reasonable. And I'm not worried about changing oil every 4000 miles either.

I just don't want to have to change the Diode board again, the Stator again,
or the battery again, as is common on many BMW's old and new ... or worse yet ... the ABS computer! Have you priced one lately? And please tell me those industry surveys are lies! .... BMW could not possibly have that many failed Drive Line/shaft/Trans in this modern day and age !!!! .... could they? Please give us your brilliant Estonian knowledge on this one. It must all be a conspiracy, Ya?

Sometimes truth is painful Stop being so defensive towards BMW.
What have they ever done for you? :blushing:Are you guys both Dealers? Do BMW send you free T-Shirts ?

Parts
You are wrong again. Both BMW and Japanese prices for parts are fairly high. I would say that overall most Japanese parts are a bit cheaper ..... at least here in the USA.

But Jap bikes and parts in the UK (as an example) are typically about 50% more to what they are here (with exchange rate figured in) I'd imagine in Eastern EU its maybe the same? or worse? My condolences.

You totally missed my point with my "Good film making" comment. I'll leave that one for others to comment on.

I can see you don't get it. I must be lying again :scooter:
See my last post for a more detailed explanation of why racing is valuable.

:rofl::D:clap: Yep, for sure referring to a group as "dilettantes" sure is
derogatory! Now that is funny!

I'm not worried about proving credibility with you Mr. W-Hog. You don't know me from Adam. But its clear from your uninformed and ignorant statements you don't exude much credibility yourself. 'nuff said.

Read my posts here on the HUBB and tell me where you see holes in my "credibility".

Patrick :mchappy:

hi all,

i am not sure if you take my words in to account, however, except first few threads all the discussions are off the topic.

let me remind you the topic: "BMW Dakar Vs F650GS" and not "jap bike vs bmw"

the best bike is the bike which is between your legs.

btw, my first bike was 97 make f650st and the engine blow up in 29000 miles. :) would i go again for bmw? yes, only if i could find one which costs same as xt660r ;)

just my 2c.

enjoy riding, wheter it is a jap or bmw.. it is summer on the southers sphere!!

Just out of personal curiosity, Mollydog: Is this the same Dealer News where Joe Delmont is contributing editor? Dealer News Magazine?

Thanks Mark,
I see some cultural stereotypes being exchanged back and forth here, I also see racist inferences being made regards "Jap" this and
"Jap" that. Where I grew up the use of the term "Jap" was not politically correct. I get in a hurry sometimes and use it too .... just as an abbreviation. But it can mean more, especially to my high school friends who grew up in the WW2 internment camps.

I know little about the newly formed "Republics" once part of the Soviet Union. But obviously Warthog and Margus are doing OK if they are riding BMW's and traveling around. They must be part of the elite few who've managed to reach the top.

Thanks Mark,
Glad I could offer something useful.

Apparently so. I don't know him.

Your "info" is full of holes as I quoted various of them some posts back. Please respond to the questions I posted first. Especially the "credible" info you get about your apparently precision-specced reliability data :)

Oh WOW! Now this is 10 out of 10 points of bollocks and very shameful speculation (100% wrong also):

"part of the elite few who've managed to reach the top ... by whatever means necessary"

There lies your problem of all the discussion covered under BMW and other topics:

If you don't know anything about - can you please just shut up and stop speculating!?

Basing on your "pseudo-theory" racing as a reliability lab: then why aren't KTM singles 100% bomb proof reliable? They've raced them for ages now.



So for example, what's Suzukis excuse to have poor reliability performance areas like:

Electrics (overall)
Fuel Injection (i.e. 3500rpm surge on Stroms)
Clutch
Poor plastics



Can you please show us the list of those thousands documented cases? (Ask from your good friends at the consumer protection company maybe? Or industry-insiders?)



Again wrong fact. Öhlins has been bought out by Europeans some time ago now (Kenth Öhlins himself owns 95%), Yamaha no longer owns residuals.


If I have time I'll dig into shares and index history of Motorrad's economy. While it holds no importance for the discussion would be interesting to check if your FACT is true or not.



Wrong about the money spend. I haven't seen any BMW motorcycle ad in TV while I've seen dozens of the Big Four ads in TV in dozens of contries.

BMW is a tiny bit compared to any of the Japanese maker. Japanese Big Four have dominated the motorcycle market for a long time, they have the most money in Ads and thus also control the mythology inside the biker community.



I see Japanese bikes ads in various mags, from car to fashion mags, while I've seen just few BMW ads in non-motorcycle issues.



Why do you lie again?



We're still waiting the details of the super-precise high quality reliable data source. It might be exacly what any HUBB newbie looks for on choosing the bike!


Buy one, which ever you like, own it at least 2 years, put more than 30K on the clock in various conditions. Then share your views as an owner.

Then we can talk. (as you say)

+1

That's what I've been trying to say all along.


So what you mean would be someting in the lines of:

For Mollydog, Ein-Stonians (as he calls us) are fat-eaten wannabe elite, who ride BMWs thus know nothing about motorcycles and better should not exist (of course, also BMW shouldn't exist)?

The only correct nation/people are those who ride only Japanese bikes? Everything else is outrageously unreliable and pointless?


I find it pity, when person talks too much (about matters he/she has no long-term or direct experience with) and posting wrong facts makes him/her look like a very experienced person and others automatically take it for granted, without questions.


I stand corrected. Good to see HUBB promotes "sincerity" and "open mind" :)

This thread appears to be getting out of hand. Remember the header to "Which Bike?" reads:

Firstly, whether you care about it or not, I will say that up until now I was merely having a discussion with you on this topic. Up until now, I have had respect for your posts in the past as you seemed approachable, knowldgable and even-handed.
I'm sorry to say that is no longer the case.

You have just made numerous personal attacks on Margus and myself, relating to Estonia and place you clearly know very little about.

You are also putting words into my mouth: I never once said you were lying, I merely asked for you to provide the facts and figures to back your reference to facts and figures: not the same as saying you are a liar.

So, no, not a cheap shot... a fabricated shot...

I said it once, but I'll say it again:
I am Anglo-french: I grew up in the UK and I've been riding since the age of 19. I have owned plenty of bikes from the big 4 and enjoyed all of them. My experiences are not based on the Estonian market.

I know that there are many relaible bikes from Japan: I have never said the contrary. In fact, I have owned a number of them myself... Unfortunately, the G-wing and your beloved DL are the only two you seem to keep referring to...

You seem stuck in a cycle where Japanese being relaible, automatically means that German is not: not sound logic...

If you want to be taken seriously as a poster and as a journalist you might was to learn a thing or two about accuracy in your writing.
I am stunned that despite my post being two entries behind yours and you quoting it, you still manage to get what I said wrong.

My exact words:
As for HD. They are grotesquely under-tuned. 60bhp from a 1.3 litre engine? no wonder they keep going , although the Electra glide we met in Argentian had nothing but problems...
And I must say, do not know if you speak for the US market or world-wide, but US roads are hardly the most taxing on the vehicle, are they?
Pay attention...


I'm sure you thought that was the height of wit.... Now that is a cheap shot...

Once more, if you just had a look at my post you would see that the currency symbol I used was £. All my running costs for the BM, apart from our trip, were in the UK

What? No pads, air-filters or oil filters?
Why, I suggest you get on your bike and ride it a little then, seeing as they need replacing every few thousand miles....

Aftermarket parts are equally available for BMWs.... So this lends no weight to your point. The point relates only for OEM parts, like for like and OEM parts from the big 4 are very expensive, and this is how a large portion of their revenue is generated.

Sorry: that is very poor.
I can't believe someone who claims to be a journalist has come to name calling and having a dig at a country they know nothing about, and yet alluding to it being somehow backward.... Sad.
As for being defensive: stop being so aggressive! If you call having an opposing view to yours and asking for justification to your claims as defensive, so be it...

I keep repeating myself, but never mind:
I do not have any problems with any of the Japanese bike companies: what I have a problem with is you and making accusations about a brand you obviously don't like and which you have repeatedly failed to back up with figures despite saying you are privvy to a wealth of information.
Now you say it was from a paper article in a single publication....


Yep, I think your credibility is definitely settled...

As for knowing you from Adam, the same could be said about you knowing me, and yet you spent a large portion of this post making accusations, assumptions and presumptions... is this how you write all your pieces?

And posting smileys after saying something designed to be rude, still makes it rude...

As for this discussion, as someone quite rightly pointed out, this does not serve the purposes of the original question, so I've said my piece.

I'm just sad that you felt you needed to resort to the sort of tone you did... through out this thread I have remained perfectly civil toward you.
(I won't post a smiley....)

Good point there Wuming.

All bikes will do the job. As far as I'm concerned, BMW in general is the Dark Side. Alluring, tempting, flashing - but it comes with a hefty price tag. I know. I've been there. Guzzi and all the bikes that I own, otoh, are from the Good Side. Everybody knows that. Right?

May the 4 stroke force be with you all.

I agree with the latter part. I'm not native English, for me the fact said wrong is a lie, especially in the context of building someone's "bashing-scene" on it to make and find negative points. If the word 'lie' is too offensive somehow for native English speakers name me the alternative and I'll correct it.

And also agree on statistically weighted reports - BUT this must be done by unbiased organisation built up for statistical basis, not someone in the forum (and as said from my point of view: especially those who haven't owned a product but still try to rate them).

The only real-life reliability survey done I know on bike is the UK's 10,000 (statistical population selection) bikers surveyed back in 2004.

See here.

The results have been disputed many times here and in various other forums (i.e. BMW doesn't have any real offroad bikes that take the beating and are with short maintenance intervals etc factors of different makes), but there hasn't been any other hands-on survey on real-life reliability of motorcycles. That's the only statistics currently I know done on the reliability of bikes.

"Ride Magazine
English motorcycle magazine, Ride, has published their survey results amongst 10,000 motorcyclists in the United Kingdom in this month's publication.

The motorcyclists were asked how reliable their motorcycle is. Results:"

1. BMW (90%)
2. Honda (89.2%)
3. Yamaha (85.5%)
4. Triumph (84%)
5. Suzuki (83.2%)
6. Kawasaki (82.8%)
7. MZ (81.3%)
8. Harley-Davidson (80.1%)
9. Aprilia (77.1%)
10. KTM (74%)
11. Buell (72.2%)
12. Cagiva (70.5%)
13. Ducati (69.1%)
14. Moto Guzzi (68.8%)
15. CCM (63.8%)
"


As with any statistical result, it shows averages, anyone can interpret it in own way.

What?!? Moto Guzzi on 14th??! It can't be!



;)

Hang on a minute!!

When the heck did Ural slip out of the top 10: they kept that one quiet....

Hey Pimp Yoda,

Lol, see the hornets nest that you inadvertently poked with what seemed like a simple question but ended up being a big stick?

With your long background in bikes and experience in South Africa you are already way ahead of most and when coming down, you will wonder what all the fuss was about.

Are you going east coast? If so, having your brother along will be a multiple blessing, not only to share a once in a lifetime experience but as you say to carry some of your gear!

One route I would suggest if you are going east coast is to go along Lake Turkana instead Moyale in northern Kenya. The route is rougher, and much, much less travelled, but was certainly a highlight. With a truck to carry a lot of your weight and the spare fuel and water, the riding will be easier to enjoy and it is truly is unique corner of Africa.


And last off topic comments:

First, the views held by Mollydog, while sometimes at the extreme, do serve a purpose in that they stir the pot and balance a lot of the preconceptions that exist in the general public. I'm sure a lot of people begin the dream to ride around the world and have in their mind that they have to use a BMW to do so.

As we all know that is not true, many options exist and this thought sort of thinking has to be jarred out of them so they can make a reasoned choice amongst options, sometimes better suited to their specific trip, sometmes not. I can't tell you how many people around the world, with varying levels of experience, would walk up to me and make comments along the lines of "I'm going to ride around the continent, as soon as I get a BMW of course, are you able to get by with your inferior bike?". This became funny after a while, and even funnier after I actually switched bikes and was riding a new model BMW.

Kudos to BMW, this has been hard earned product recognition, based on many years of experience and dedication to long distance and world touring and focused marketing. And comments by Margus and others show this, any business would be proud to have such commited and supportive customers. We should continue to be nice to BMW as well, they are pushing an area that is pretty much a niche to the big guys, even though it is the center of our world. That's probably part of the reason we are so passionate about it.

Plus, the BMW riders and Japanese riders should unite for even more reasons, there is a new enemy in town. As I mentioned before, the most common western bike that I saw in Africa was KTM, and based on my experience, their smugness has exceeded that purported to belong to owners of other brands. Rise up all, the real enemy is not KTM, but the KTM riders (Herby, we know who you are:)

Survey?
 

The survey results are interesting. Ask 10000 riders if they think their bike is reliable and you mostly get an opinion. Of the 10,000 lets say 1000 ride a particular brand, of that how many actually rode enough miles to break down (Urals excluded, even I managed to breakdown five times in 6 months 10,000 km). Lies, ****** lies and statistics or just an oddly worded question? The sample size is in any case too small. I can read the result as 90% of BMW's are reliable or 90% of BMW owners think they are reliable. Is this good bikes or good marketing?

Tough one isn't it :helpsmilie:

I don't think any rider of any bike is an enemy BTW. The ones who bought their mega cycles and half the Touratech catalogue but can't check their own oil level provide more imeadiate entertainment that the ones actually going places on twenty year old hacks held together with duct tape, but heck, anything's better than not going :thumbup1:

Andy

Thanks MountainMan. I did seem to open a hornets nest. In my life I have only owned Japanese bikes. 1 Suzuki, 3 Yamaha's and 2 Kawa's and 1 Honda. Never owned a brand new bike in my life. These bikes have all had their problems including the last bike I owned (Honda) seized the engine so badly that the connrod went staight through the sump.

Needless to say, every bike will give you troubles eventually if you do'nt take care of it properly, Jap or German.

The input has been overwhelming and what I have learnt is to go out and speak to people who has done the journey and ask about common problems to prepare myself in the best possible way no matter what I'm riding.

I'll also go out and test a few bikes and make up my own mind before investing in a friend for life (i hope)

Thanks again and speak soon.

Ps: I will need some advice on the carnet as I do want to sell the bike in SA eventually.

Have fun testing and let us know what you decide, PimpYoda. There is a lot of carnet stuff to read up on, there is a fairly recent post that talks about selling a UK bike in South Africa by bikerfromsark. Be aware that the standard line is that you can't, and the kindly gent who issues the carnet also reads this site so be careful of all the jokes you make about him:)



"I don't think any rider of any bike is an enemy BTW."

Lol, you are certainly correct, threewheelbonnie. In my experience, on the road, all riders are friends and the great "my bike is better than your bike" debates are mostly reserved for bored people on the internet who are killing time until they can get out riding.

Around the campfire, there are plenty of good humored jabs, (hence my joke) but it's all in good fun, most people are on the road are very, very humble because we all know we are one small problem away from getting towed into town and in remote locations, even small problems can take a lot of time and money to fix. You just hope that your friends aren't quick enough to film the towing and post it on the internet:)

Hi guys, I've just finished a pretty long trip with my Dakar and have been very happy with it- no breakdowns! I've ridden the standard GS too, though not nearly as far. I didn't like the smaller front wheel on the standard GS when riding off-road. Maybe I needed more time off-road with it. I really do like that 21" front wheel on the Dakar though, just my preference. In Siberia I met a South Korean man who had completed a RTW ride on a standard GS. He went through 3 stock shocks on his trip! I broke my Ohlins in Africa and it wasn't a cheap fix. The Korean guy is on a DR650 now and is happy with the bike. His buddy is a new rider and chose a KTM950. He fell down on the stretch from Khabarovsk to Chita and broke his arm. They put the bikes on the train and spent 6 weeks healing in Mongolia. Have fun- whatever you ride!

F650
 

For an overland trip you'd better of with a Dakar, and thorough preparation of the bike, in my experience.
Look I just spent 1 year motorcycling aorund south america, doing lots of tough dirt roads. I had the F650GS (fitted with a White Power rear shock), the husband had the Dakar.
I had a never ending list of problems with. I won't retype all here. IF you take a F650, check my feedback here: bikes


I am not slacking there, I am just listing thing sthat you should keep an eye on. Also make sure to repalce the rear shock, or you won't go far.

Good luck with your preparations!

I forgot to say, since I came back from travelling last May, my bike has been in and out of workshops constantly! I got it back after yet more work last Saturday. I took it on test ride on sunday, phoned workshop again today (Monday) for yet ANOTHER problem... GAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Damn Maria- I think ye bought a lemon!!! See you in Spain- where the pain is mainly on the train! Malaga should be fun- tapas and vino are on me! H.

Yep, I call it a "dog" but same thing! I came to the same conclusion some time ago!

So the ittle bugger is back for repairs, this time no choice, took it to BMW ,as I suspect yet more problems with the software, even if they deny it!

Unfortunately I won't make it to Malaga this year. Just started a new job in London and can't take time off just now. :(

Enjoy Malaga!

Well said MadmountainMan. You've been providing one of the best view in terms of sincerity and open mindness in this thread by far.

But I don't see "BMW marketing twisting the common conception" really a problem around HUBB or other forums that experienced travellers visit. The realistic picture made of dozens of travel stories in HUBB sections already tells us how many alternatives there are. People go RTW with Harley-Davidsons, Enfields, Ducatis and other. Wise people will always make up their own mind IMHO. They don't listen the praises from a BMW-fans like myself or BMW-bashes from guys like Mollydog. Well they maybe do it to some level but certainly don't base their final decisions and sums on it. The only "risk group" in this field probably are the newbies.

So what I find unfair is when people get falsely informed by people like Mollydog.

We do have freedom of speech. But I find it disturbing when someone spreads dominantly negatives about something, and especially when it's built up with false facts and ill-minded orientation only by continuously bashing and ignoring what others say.


KTM or KTM riders, enemies? Noupe! KTM, IMHO, is of the best focused-bike makers currently around. Wouldn't mind owning a 250-450cc enduro unit in the future for practicing in the weekends.

PS: Canada sounds like a perfect playground to me - if all goes well I'll be there next summer. Should I bring my heated vest with me? :)

Cheers, Margus

The mollydog thesis is that bmw has a lot more warranty claims & lemon buy backs (and thus severe quality problems) than other brands.

Please prove first that bmw has in proportion to sales not significantly more warranty claims & lemon buy backs than honda, for instance.

If you have done that, you can tell that someone is making false statements.

GHAAA! GHAAA! GHAAA! That's me screaming AND pulling my hair! If you can picture!

Well the beemer (2004 model!) has gone into a complete meltdown. According the BMW: The wiring harness is burned near the control unit.
The estimate to repair it is £1100 IF they can save the control unit. If
not it is another £600.

GAAHHH ! GAAHHH ! GAAAHHH ! (more hair pulling here I'm afraid! )


Since we came back from South America, last May, it is the 4th time the bike is down the workshop (for variou sissues!) . It has spend more time sitting in workshops than in my front garden!
This time I had to bite the bullet and take it to BMW to get it plugged to that computer of theirs!

now, who was asking if a BMW F650GS is a good bike for travelling?

GAAHHH ! GAAHHH ! GAAAHHH ! etc....

Meanwhile, teh husband's Dakar has NOTHING! GAAHHH etc.....

It's always easier to bash than to defend.

But if I ever was to make a thesis or serious claims on something I'd had it backuped with real independently surveyed data first. I wouldn't schizophrenically start simply bashing the brand to satisfy my hatred instincts or publically expose my ill-will towards one brand or the riders who ride that particular brand of bikes, especially if I haven't owned one myself. I'd instead look for realistic proof first, a cornerstone to base my facts on. And those are not forums or 'village gossips', those must be surveys carried out by unbiased statistics institutions in the case of "claims" covered in this thread.

Suzuki didn't buy back my "lemon" bike with completely burnt electrics, so they must have lot of warranty issues while not buying back bikes or it's my fault I bought Japansese bike and I was just unlucky then? :) So you think this kind of interpretation of "reliability data" provides us a perfect picture how reliable Suzukis really are?

On another forum (about a different subject entirely), one poster's signature line is "The plural of anecdote is not data." This is worth remembering in such discussions.

OTOH, I believe that it is quite possible to gather a reliable sense of the relative merits and drawbacks of a piece of gear by paying close attention to what is said about it by users. I've been doing this my whole life, and I expect I'll continue. I do try to ignore the shrill voices and extravagant claims, since I have no way of evaluating them.

I also try to bear in mind that internet forums in particular seem to attract certain sorts of opinions, and that these opinions tend to polarize over time. It always seems to me very wise to ignore the outliers and look for the consensed middle ground.

This discussion has been informative, but I'd still be interested in more data and fewer anecdotes, if such actually exists.

On my way to Europe in a few hours, where I will reunite with my KLR, head north and resume touring in (I assume) cold rain, wind and early hints of winter.

enjoy,

Mark

This thread won't die will it? We all have preferences of bike; no doubt we have all had good and bad experiences with bikes of whatever make. If you are happy with what you ride, great! If not, change it. As somebody has already pointed out: there is no perfect bike, only what is right for YOU. So please stop this arguing over what, in the grand scheme of things, is pretty insignificant and go and enjoy your bikes (whatever you happen to ride).:mchappy:

Hey Margus,

Couple of quick comments, you are right, the experienced guys are very knowledgeable and won't be swayed by pure marketing. I could be biased, but I tend to think of the audience that really benefits from these on-line discussions are the guys embarking on their first journey. I know I read these various "which bike" posts in great details when first agonizing over which bike and got to see some widely divergent views that I may not have otherwise. Much of the reason that I try to chime in when I see it come up again is that I have gotten so much from this site and the collective wisdom of it's users that I really do feel that if I can give anything back to the community, I am happy to do so. Thanks for sharing your experience and views.

In regards to my KTM bashing, I guess my poor humour doesn't translate well to the written word but in reality I am just kidding. We rode with a few KTM'ers in Africa and the bikes were great and the riders awesome guys. It really is just some prodding humour aimerd mostly at them, after a short while you become very blind to brand of motorcycle and only see fellow travellers.

If you do make it over to Canada, please let us know when to expect you. You are a motorcyclist and are therefore always welcome as a fellow biker, you are a world traveller and are therefore always welcome as a fellow traveller, and you are a member of HU and are therefore always welcome as a friend.

Peace out:)

I did, earlier in this thread. R1100 models showed in an independent survey (riders having done >20k Km on them were allowed to participate) showed a 25% GEARBOX BREAKDOWN.

That was around 8 years ago, that percentage has gone way up by now.

The same questionnaire, filled in for the Pan European ST1100, didn't come up with even one gearbox breakdown, nor were there any drive line failures. As you know, the ST1100 gearbox & drive line are very comparable to the faulty bmw (getrag) parts.

Looking at the newer bmw 1200GS model, the pictures becomes even worse. The percentage motorbikes with one or more of the following warranty claims is terrifying:
- rear wheels coming loose,
- leaking drive lines,
- leaking gearboxes,
- exhaust valves breaking off
-"ringantenne" / EWS breakdown

check out!
----------------------------------------

[QUOTE]AliBaba posted: [check out! /QUOTE]

:rofl: spot the difference.

HERE HERE!!! :thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1:

Apples or oranges?

Are STs being ridden on dirt, gravel roads or offroad?

Whatever your data is, you can't compare bikes with different focus or purpose. Goldwing doesn't compare with Varadero, like XR650R does not compare to CBR600.

By purpose, one sees smooth tarmac miles only, the other may get constantly abused by potholes, gravel, corrugations and dirt. Which do you think lasts longer mileage- or age wise?

And your data source is...? Your own "questionary"? :)

You are absolutely right that if the bike suites your needs and you are happy with it, you need not justify yourself if you do not want to.

However, to be fair, this was posted in the "Which Bike" sub-forum that, by definition, is for people who want to know what bike you prefer, or which is best for them.... The poster had two specific models in mind: the discussion need really not have gone beyond those two models but it did...

Agreed 100%.

But as you can see, for some people, there's no end to BMW-hatred and bashing :) There's always an excuse to bash something. And if someone steps out to say things aren't that "black&white" or (over-)generalized someone tries to paint them, it's the BMW owners who then get bashed. Apparently bashing BMW gives great satisfaction for some certain type of people, ...especially those who haven't owned one :whistling:

Maybe moderators should create separate forum section named: "Bash BMW here!" or "Your personal punching-bag", and those angry people can let all their steam out with all the words they can w/o any limits? Sounds like a ingenious idea to me, at least (hopefully) keeps the other threads clean.

Now I'll go out riding my trusty BMW, over ten years old and currently 80K on the clock and not a single fault after all the abuse it gets from me - will let you know when EWS gives up (oops, I dont have one?), rear wheel gets loose, gearbox blows, shaft drive kaputt up or the engine seizes ;)

Data? Did someone say data? As I've said over and over, IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE, especially among BMW owners.

Lets start with this one:

BMW FD Failure List

So you found documentation on four FD-errors on 1200GS :-)

Nice job, they have sold more then 100.000 1200GS…

The discussion seems to have morphed to be about BMW in general, not the GS. Here's another tid bit. (shhhh .... more lies)
Read a few pages in if you have the patience. This is just one of hundreds of owners forums with reports on this.

MCN (US version) just published a pretty damning article on FD failures too.
But of course, they're liars and have never owned BMW and must be paid by the "Japs" to Bash! Right? :cool4:

Motorcycle Consumer News, F/D Failure - BMW Luxury Touring Community

Sorry Mollydog, I don’t know anything about the LT and I stay away from discussions where I don’t have first-hand experience.

The LT is a BMW. The MCN article is about BMW final drive failures. I will post it if they publish it on their website. So far, it is not there.
You stay away from?:confused1: Yes, I noticed :welcome:

Cheers,

Patrick :mchappy:

the bmw questionnaire was on the R1100RT, that in fact showed the 25% gearbox failure rate
At that time it was the best selling bike in the country.
Direct competitor to the ST1100.

The article on the R1100GS was equally shocking, but I don't have that particular one any more, so I can't quote exact percentages.


A "quality" poll on the dutch GS club site, shows that only 48% of 1200GS owners have had no technical problems/ warranty claims at all.
20% of respondents have had severe probs... Pictures of broken off exhaust valves are particularly hot at the moment.

Sure every bike model ever made will have some individual units, that will not function as well as the majority of them do.

But I think its correct to say the R1200GS as a model, and considering the kind of bike it is, its price range, and from which factory it comes from, has had more than its fair share of problems during these 4 years.

Its supposed to be "the real deal" of their adventure range, and yet it seems like a lot of the expensive new GS´s wont take even normal use without any troubles. That is below-par, no matter how much you want to forgive BMW.

Sure its a nice bike, versatile and sweet handling. But for a very long trip, and when going outside the regular dealer network, I´d choose something else. Just my 0.02 cents...

Post links first please.

Getrag info on 1100 transmissions can be found here. No-one there says about your very nice'n'round number 25% of failures. Factory should have that kind of info, and if it was so it'd be a media-wide scandal if every 4th bike had a blown transmission on low mileages through out it's production years IMO.

Wow, you must be personally deep inside BMW owner field to know such stuff. It has to be top-secret common knowledge then.

Being BMW owner myself and constantly in communication with other (thousands of) BMW owners through various forums or personally, I've never heard about it being a common knowledge. Just few rumours earlyer models may had some potential issues like early 1993-1995 R1100 models gearboxes with noise-supressing bearings, or early 1200 models with non-serivicable final drives.

The same rumours you hear about Japanese bikes, like early V-Stroms with constantly blown clutches, surging EFIs etc.

Never believed rumors myself.

But certainly nothing to do with common knowledge, and especially among BMW owners who have first hand experience with the bikes.

Smells like another village gossip or a rumour that Mollydog's (selectively) taking seriously, mainly because the name "BMW" is marked there?

As AliBaba already pointed out, divide production numbers with those first, do you get 25%?