My Suzuki had burnt electrics, friend of mine with complete burnt ECU. Suzuki electrics are legendary for me. ;)

How about rectifiers on Hondas, or fuel pumps? Clutches on V-Stroms, broken rear frames on Yamahas, bent or twisted valves on Kawasaki bikes?


2 of the guys I know had output shaft grinded on Africa Twins after harder riding - needs complete engine crankcase split to replace the bits ($$$).

Just some time ago a Kawasaki went with 3 gears grinded in the gearbox. It's good he could ride on in 5th gear only (after 3 days of work on the road completely spliting the engine, taking the shafts out and grinded bald the rest of the gears to make the engine to rotate again)

Or did they perhaps all blindly believed and trusted all the japanese reliability hype that goes around? :)

R1100GS model is built from 1993 to 1999. And definitely it's not the only reliable twin from their line. Some stunning mileages and superb reliability reported on most of models, from R65 to R1200, UKGSer is a good reading from owners point of view. As said '97-'99 spec model has proven itself very reliable for me as an owner - not a "third party" speaker who hasn't had any direct experiences with it.

To sum up: you can always select out the bad examples and hype them up, on any maker. But to know the real-data about the reliability of different bikes is just too complex picture to handle, and frankly quite pointless discussion as pointed out by Warthog and others. It'll depend on the build quality, owner's riding style and maintenance regularity-quality, but there are also dozens of other factors in play. By claiming: "hey, that guy had a broken down bike, I saw it myself, and it was a BMW (or a Jap bike)" analogy gets you nowhere in overall picture of the things.

It’s a shame that you have problems with BMW Uganduro, especially since Uganda is a country suited for big powerful offroad bikes.

Uganda, a few days after the mileage exceeded 100 kkm, all internals engine, gearbox, cardan ++ are still original (except for a clutch change prior to the trip because I didn’t expect the clutch to last the entire trip).
http://www.actiontouring.com/pic/ugamap.jpg



BTW: It’s a 1996, mileage is 202kkm and gearbox never opened….

This is a very odd phenomena! BMW riders seem to need to justify not buying the Yamaha, Japanese riders seem to want to defend against not buying the BMW. The physcologists would have a ball! Purchase guilt?

As an ex-BMW owner I have no hard and fast feelings. Yes I hated BMW switch gear throughout both R1100's I had and both broke down through various bits of totally rubbish quality. Likewise I loved both my F650's and only had problems with the last one. So four BMW's and I sold three for reliability issues and one because I was stupid and though more power was a good thing. This is a very small sample!

I've owned (still own) MZ's and Urals. The former are a dream if you like two strokes the later a nightmare, but in the right circumstances I can see myself owning one of the new Urals just for the technology. I love my Triumph but no way is it flawless, the wiring is **** and the silencers should come with a dustpan and brush for the rust flakes. I wish I'd kept my XT it's only flaw was a really cheap exhaust system. I've had a lot to do with Guzzi's but would have another Triumph simply because they are easier to live with day to day because more people bought them.

There is no right answer for me until you look at the purchase price. The BMW's are overpriced by at least £2000 and to me that IS trading on the badge and the myth of better reliability. Others may have different stories and will make different choices but I won't pay the extra when I know the bikes have similar issues to the cheaper Japanese or other European version.

The black stories thing is common enough. I used to work in the truck brake industry even having some dealings with BMW on car stuff. The way any corporation manages issues is very similar. First you deny everything because most problems ARE caused by misuse and stupid customers or dealers. Second you can't do anything as solutions take time to develop so you wait. Finally you need need a controlled introduction of the fix that matches what you have available. From the customers point of view you look like you don't care, then you look like you don't know, then you seem to sneak out a solution. My German colleagues were always very poor at this and very slow which added to BMW's "reliability image" will get people talking. The Japanese were much slicker but lower key at everything, mostly the presentation, but in reality achieved roughly the same. Hence BMW can look like sneaky muppets and Yamaha sell factory tours to US businessmen who have quality issues of their own!

Bottom line though is back to the physcologists. Don't feel you need to justify your purchase. If you bought a BM and like it that's great, if you like the yam that's great too.

Andy

Did i say anywhere that japanese bikes are more reliable than others?

I only said there are similar mileage record setting bikes of all brands & countries.


Did I say anywhere that bmw doesn't know how to make reliable bikes?

On the contrary, I said the K75/K100 really are admirable.
(but the japanese copy is also very, very good (honda ST1100))
The rotax F650GS also appears impressive - though i appreciate the simplicity of an aircooled engine.


I do feel bad when people engage me in intellectually unfair discussions by wanting to have it both ways.
One can't at the same time:
- call someone a liar because he bases himself on industry reports (which do exist, also at bmw) and not on "personal experience".
- call arguments based on those very "personal experiences" pointless/useless because one would miss "the whole picture";
& disregard hundreds of "personal experiences", gathered and weighed in rider reports & forum polls.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words , well maybe a video is worth ten thousand !
YouTube - SUZUKI DL-BMW 1150GS

Er, would this be a bad time to (re) post this??
YouTube - Hitler's got the wrong bike.
:devil2:

I'm sorry my friend, you are WAY wrong on this statement or perhaps you misunderstand?

I've talked and mostly listened to several high level Japanese mucky mucks from all four Japanese companies. I can assure you 100%, they DO learn from racing and DO use things discovered in racing to help improve and develop common street bikes.

This trickle down of technology is very real. I'm not talking about "day to day riding", like if you buy an R1 Yamaha you will now ride like Valentino. NO, I am talking about technical feed back that means years and years or solid reliability. I am talking about a bike that can take a beating, abuse, no maintenance for years and still run well .... as a street bike, not a race bike.
THIS is the part of the benefits of racing.

Of course some race bikes have little to do with the street version of that bike. The BMW Dakar bikes are a perfect example of this. These were "one off" examples, essentially. No relation to a production GS or F650. I've seen them up close in person and had a BMW team mechanic explaining the entire bike to us so I know exactly what these bikes were. (now all gone!)

But in many forms of racing, what you see are basically STOCK bikes on the race track. This is true for MOST racing in the world today.

Example: Super Stock or Production classes. These bikes ARE street bikes simply put on the track with better tires. In Moto Cross or super cross also, the race bikes are nearly identical to the bike they sell to the public.

I know, I've been there, talked to the Team boss for both Honda and Yamaha. I know exactly what is different and what is not. Mostly it is adjustment and fine tuning. The motors are all virtually STOCK!

Racing is a laboratory for the Japanese. They have a system for R$D which is quite amazing, and very few really understand it. Obviously you don't and I don't think you want to.

All true but I must tell you there is a BIG difference between the Japanese and the Italians and the Austrians too. Cultural mostly. Having hung out a lot with Japanese business men and worked for them and traveled with an official "Japan expert" just a tiny bit of understanding of their culture has rubbed off.

With the Japanese, business always comes first. So they race, but its all for business. If it does not show an advantage in business then they will not do it. The Italians, well, as you know: passion. The Italians are brilliant engineers, no question. But the things they learn in racing don't always go into their street bikes do they? We've all seen this. But you know, this is changing too! The DS1000 motor was the start of a change for Ducati. The Passion for winning MotoGP is still there but now the technical trickle down is being kept track of and engineered more and more into products they sell.

KTM I don't yet fully understand. But I feel they are making good progress.
Lets also consider they are relative "newbies" at making big twins. The Japanese have built and raced twins since the early 70's. I believe it takes time and the ability to perform and understand how to do valuable R&D based on feed back learned on the race track. The Austrians are inexperienced a bit here compared to Japanese. BMW? they have absolutely NO excuse for the poor performance of their bikes in the reliability area.

Electrics
Drive line
Fuel injection
ABS

These are things that should never, ever, for any reason ever given problems. Yet THOUSANDS of documented cases exist. WHY?:eek3:

The Japanese bike makers are ALL Huge, massive companies. Most are involved in other businesses. The motorcycle division is often the smallest, least important division. Buy they all make a profit.

Honda:
1. Cars, trucks
2. Bikes, ATV's, Scooters
3. Water craft
4. Generators and other power equipment
5. Indy Car and Formula One motors

Honda own Showa suspension, several Racetracks (Suzuka in Japan) and huge testing facilities world wide (like the very secret one in the California
Mojave Desert. I'm sure I'm missing a lot here. Honda are HUGE!

Suzuki:
1. Cars (Made in Korea and China)
2. Bikes, ATV's, mini bikes
3. Race tracks/testing tracks

Kawasaki (Kawasaki Heavy Industries)
Perhaps the biggest and most powerful of all the Japanese
motorcycle companies. Google KHI and see the web site.

1. Ships
2. Helicopters, business jets
3. Bridges and massive infrastructure projects
4. Motorcycles
5. Water Craft, other power equipment

Yamaha: (what don't they make?)
1. Musical instruments
2. Boats
3. Motorcycles
4. Generators and other power equipment.

Yamaha also own Ohlins, Swedish suspension maker.
Not necessarily so!:nono:
BMW motorcycle division have run in the red (losing money) for MOST of their history. It is only in the last six or seven years they are finally making a profit and not being 100% supported by the Car division. FACT.
So, it seems your arguement does not hold up 100%.

Also, BMW spend more money on ads than any one of the big four do. They use one of the most expensive Ad agencies in the world to create their ad campaigns. They also are the only motorcycle company to "cross over" into other market areas. (that means out of the motorcycle world) BMW ads can be seen in non motorcycle publications, on TV (not race events) and Radio.
None of the Big Four do this.

I never said they were crap, I simply pointed out that industry statistics show they have a poor record for reliability. Not crap. As I've said about 5 times in this thread .... I like BMW in some ways. I just would not own one. (unless someone else pays for the service).

I like the style and design elements on many of their bikes. They ride well too and have a nice refined feel. (when new). As a journalist, I don't need to own every bike I test to know what it is about. I don't review a bike I've only ridden one day (many do). Most test bikes I get I keep for a couple weeks or sometimes months. This was the case with the 1150GS. The R12GS we only got for about 10 days. I put over 2000 miles on it and had a nice 1100GS and another 1150GS along for comparison. This is how I test bikes.

Patrick :mchappy:

But you're not. You have not provided anything, despite me asking for facts previously. This is only hearsay, at present.

Wow, two models! Well, I stand corrected. Two models from Japan have managed big miles: I must be wrong, then... As for HD. They are grotesquely under-tuned. 60bhp from a 1.3 litre engine? no wonder they keep going , although the Electra glide we met in Argentian had nothing but problems...
And I must say, do not know if you speak for the US market or world-wide, but US roads are hardly the most taxing on the vehicle, are they?

Not so. Admittedly Dealer costs are high, but that is a franchise dealer: the bikes them selves do not require you to go to a dealer. That said, I have been fleeced by a few Jap franchises too: that is a western view on customer service rather than the bike manufacturer. So no points to either on that count.

My boxer twin had oil changes every 6000 miles to the regular 3-4K for Jap bikes. Spares such as pads, filters and the like were very reasonalby priced compared to the ridiculous Jap spare prices. But then this is how Jap manufacturers make their money: from spares, rather than only initial bikes sales, but then you know, this being in the industry...

In all honesty, ALL BIKE running costs are now ridiculous, in my opinion. When an indicator lense costs you £16 for a bike, but £6 for a car, you know you ar getting shafted....

DO NOT PANIC! You are not being targeted by a small EU nation.;) I am merely an Estonian resident. I am of Anglo-Franco stock...

That statement does not make any sense, i'm afraid. They never said it was a breeze: they admitted on camera that the bikes were very heavy, but the bikes got them, Ewan and Claudio (off-road novices like me) through Siberia, carrying shed loads of, no doubt, pointless, kit. End of. There was no sly fim making. They left on BMs in London, 3 months later they arrived in New York on said BMs: I don't see how they are supposed to have pulled the wool over our eyes and on what count.

What does racing have to do with making good bikes for the real world?!?
I just don't get it.

The whole championships business: now there is a marketing ploy and you seem to be falling for it...
Renault are a very successful race team in F1, as are Ferrari. Neither can be said to make a particularly relaible road car manufacturer.
Winning races is not the Holy Grail of building good quality bikes for the consumer market: look at Ducati: beautiful, go like the clappers, but add a spot of rain, etc....

Is this why you dislike their product so? You don't like their style? As for the alleged Jap, quasi-racist attidtude to the non-Japanese.... I don't see how this affects a bike's build, but i can see how it might affect your view of a brand.

But I'm afraid I do not feel objectivity in your statements and points. This is why I have reacted to them: they are very strong points of view and not always backed-up with fact, so far, and so I feel I need to call you on that one. There is very little give in your view of BMWs. It also takes away credibility, something you claimed to be up-holding, when you make derogatory statements about the owners of BMs like they are dimwits of some sort.

From another thread I believe:

You can't expect people to take your opinion as objective, as a journalist, no less, with those sorts of deep-rooted pre-conceptions. As I responded last time: I am not a rich wannabee: I worked my @rse off for 3 years, to buy my bike, kit it up, ship it and ride it.



A good point and an interesting spectacle, but I'd like to make my own position clear: I have owned a number of bikes. Liked some and disliked other. Most were Japanese and they make excellent bikes, then there was the BM and now the Ural. These too are excellent bikes, but they are not the same market.

I do not actually feel that BMs are any better than Jap bikes, and vice versa.
What gets my back up is when I see an arguement that does not seem reasoned or objective: prejudiced in a word. A mite strong, perhaps, but its what springs to mind....

Mollydog, it would probably help focus the discussion (and enhance your own credibility) if you could post some sort of source for your claims about warranty repair frequencies and such. Absent this, you appear to be making a lot of unsubstantiated claims in a perhaps over-loud voice. This does not make your claims incorrect, necessarily, but neither does it contribute to making your case.

I would suggest also that comments about people's nationalities are likely to be taken as offensive by some—especially when those nationalities are only recently emerging from political and cultural domination by historically brutal outsiders. Estonia fits this description. Lighthearted joking about such matters by Americans is probably less than appropriate....unless intended to deepen misunderstandings and ill will.

I've benefited personally from many of your posts here. I have no doubts about the sincerity of your hard-won beliefs or about your riding skills and experience. Nor do I doubt your obvious eagerness to be of help to other riders on this board, including those less experienced and skilled than yourself. For these contributions, I thank you.

I hope my mild interjection is taken in the constructive spirit in which it is intended.

enjoy,

Mark
(a DL650 rider, as it happens, who does not quite see the point to BMW's)

I read this info in paper form in Dealer News. Never saw it online. I'm sure it's available online but i'm not wasting time searching for it.

You really believe I'm making this stuff up, off the top of my head? All just a fantasy of mine, eh? And who would you believe? Hey, don't take my word, do some research if you really care.

Trust me, it is COMMON KNOWLEDGE in the industry. Every editor I've met is well aware of BMW's poor record and checkered history and continual poor showing in this area. BMW work hard to dispel it but there it is..... popping up again ... and again .... and again.

You and Margus really believe I'm a liar? That my goal is to make BMW guys feel bad! :rofl:

Cheap shot man.
There are far more than two Japanese models that have done big miles. I'm sorry if you guys don't get big four products in Estonia or you pay more for them. Here, they are relatively cheap and available in the, its mostly what sells. BMW's are out there too but around towns you mostly see Jap bikes.

And your right. HD guys do zero miles :rofl: I can see you really have done your homework regards HD guys and how much they ride!
Like I said, BMW= 3% of bikes in the US. HD? Take a guess Ein-stonia. :D

I guess BMW dealers in Estonia charge less? But here in the US it is the number one complaint among owners. Read any BMW forum/blog. Service prices are crazy expensive. Like $700 for a basic service.

Japanese dealers charge a lot too, but most common service parts are available aftermarket and are cheap (brake pads, filter). Hard to know for sure, I've not bought a part for any one of the dozen or so jap bikes I've owned in the last few years. You see, they just DO NOT FAIL!:thumbup1: GET IT?

You're complaining about OIL FILTER prices? We can choose about four different inexpensive aftermarket oil filters here. Maybe $5 each? Plastic parts too are reasonable. And I'm not worried about changing oil every 4000 miles either.

I just don't want to have to change the Diode board again, the Stator again,
or the battery again, as is common on many BMW's old and new ... or worse yet ... the ABS computer! Have you priced one lately? And please tell me those industry surveys are lies! .... BMW could not possibly have that many failed Drive Line/shaft/Trans in this modern day and age !!!! .... could they? Please give us your brilliant Estonian knowledge on this one. It must all be a conspiracy, Ya?

Sometimes truth is painful Stop being so defensive towards BMW.
What have they ever done for you? :blushing:Are you guys both Dealers? Do BMW send you free T-Shirts ?

Parts
You are wrong again. Both BMW and Japanese prices for parts are fairly high. I would say that overall most Japanese parts are a bit cheaper ..... at least here in the USA.

But Jap bikes and parts in the UK (as an example) are typically about 50% more to what they are here (with exchange rate figured in) I'd imagine in Eastern EU its maybe the same? or worse? My condolences.

You totally missed my point with my "Good film making" comment. I'll leave that one for others to comment on.

I can see you don't get it. I must be lying again :scooter:
See my last post for a more detailed explanation of why racing is valuable.

:rofl::D:clap: Yep, for sure referring to a group as "dilettantes" sure is
derogatory! Now that is funny!

I'm not worried about proving credibility with you Mr. W-Hog. You don't know me from Adam. But its clear from your uninformed and ignorant statements you don't exude much credibility yourself. 'nuff said.

Read my posts here on the HUBB and tell me where you see holes in my "credibility".

Patrick :mchappy:

hi all,

i am not sure if you take my words in to account, however, except first few threads all the discussions are off the topic.

let me remind you the topic: "BMW Dakar Vs F650GS" and not "jap bike vs bmw"

the best bike is the bike which is between your legs.

btw, my first bike was 97 make f650st and the engine blow up in 29000 miles. :) would i go again for bmw? yes, only if i could find one which costs same as xt660r ;)

just my 2c.

enjoy riding, wheter it is a jap or bmw.. it is summer on the southers sphere!!

Just out of personal curiosity, Mollydog: Is this the same Dealer News where Joe Delmont is contributing editor? Dealer News Magazine?

Thanks Mark,
I see some cultural stereotypes being exchanged back and forth here, I also see racist inferences being made regards "Jap" this and
"Jap" that. Where I grew up the use of the term "Jap" was not politically correct. I get in a hurry sometimes and use it too .... just as an abbreviation. But it can mean more, especially to my high school friends who grew up in the WW2 internment camps.

I know little about the newly formed "Republics" once part of the Soviet Union. But obviously Warthog and Margus are doing OK if they are riding BMW's and traveling around. They must be part of the elite few who've managed to reach the top.

Thanks Mark,
Glad I could offer something useful.

Apparently so. I don't know him.

Your "info" is full of holes as I quoted various of them some posts back. Please respond to the questions I posted first. Especially the "credible" info you get about your apparently precision-specced reliability data :)