CDP for Europe from the UK?
 

Hi there,

Difficult one to answer at this time due to the lack of cross-Channel traffic, but does any one know if, post-BREXIT, you now need a CDP if you're transporting your UK-registered/road-legel bike in the back of a van when going to mainland Europe?

Would be for a 2 week trip, back to the UK so no importing taking place.

I've heard a few rumours on FB about race-bikes needing them.

Thanks,

Ed

Good question! I have been trying (fruitlessly)to get an answer to this for 2 weeks. Unregistered race bikes/cars are currently subject to a carnet system according to the ACU (see below) but I haven't found anything for vehicles with registration documents. You would like to think if there's a V5 registration document, and insurance and mot, there should be no problem, but given the vindictive pettyness of the customs inspectors (I mean: confiscating ham sandwiches? Playground stuff) nothing sensible can be expected :-(



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Thanks - it could be that it's just required for race bikes that are un-registered because they could theoretically by registered for the first time. With no pre-existing registration the bike is in effect a blank canvas that can't be traced, but a carnet provides way of managing that.

In contrast, previously registered bikes are at least accountable in some shape or form, though I don't know to what extent a UK-reg provides that accountability to EU countries post-BREXIT.

I guess we'll just have to see when things open up again - I suspect the lack of x-Channel traffic means its difficult to confirm for sure!

Fingers crossed for some kind of trip with the van and a bike in the back this summer....!

Ed

Hi Ed:

I suspect that the requirement that unregistered race bikes and cars need a carnet arises because those unregistered machines are not considered "vehicles".

In other words, once an automobile or motorcycle gets registered and plated the first time, it's kind of like it has been baptized - now it is a "vehicle", rather than just a piece of machinery, and there is a well-established protocol for permitting vehicles to cross borders without need for a carnet.

I'm going to guess that if you tried to take a perfectly normal new automobile or new (non-race) bike that had never been registered across borders, it might also be subject to the requirement to have a carnet.

As for transporting registered (plated) bikes from the UK into Europe in the back of a van, I doubt very much if a carnet will ever be needed. I can transport my Canadian-plated motorcycle into any European country in the back or belly of an aircraft - something I have done quite a few times - and I don't need a carnet to do that.

Michael

Ever flown into Australia or New Zealand? Or remember this?

More importantly: its VIN number has been recorded in a database that is part of international cooperation agreements, and can be traced back if stolen or re-registered. :) Race bikes may not even have VINs!

Almost certainly not a carnet, but possibly some form of TIP or other authorization paperwork.

Note that when you transport your Canadian-plated vehicle by aircraft, the vehicle gets placed in a customs warehouse at the other end. And to drive it out, you - the owner - must show up, with your passport and your ownership documents, and sign papers whereby you basically promise to take the vehicle out of this customs area within 12 months, and not sell it on while you're here.

So yeah, transport by commercial hauler to a customs warehouse and then pickup by the owner = minimal paperwork. Transport of other people's vehicles in the back of a van... *potentially* more paperwork.

Real-life example: leased vehicles entering Russia. I live in an EU country with a land border with Russia, and this is definitely A Thing. When you privately lease a vehicle, the bank owns it - you (and maybe a couple of your family members) are simply an Authorized User written into the registration certificate.

This is fine for driving the vehicle all across the EU/EEA and most "friendly" countries, but at some point Russia decided that it would treat any border crossing by a non-owner (even an authorized user) as a potential attempt to import the vehicle, and require a full customs bond from the bank that owns the vehicle. Which a bank - technically owning thousands of vehicles - of course wouldn't do.

So yes, there was a legitimate problem where you could not cross into Russia in a leased private vehicle without loads of paperwork and putting up loads of money. It CAN happen, and the UK is now a third country, as much as Russia.

"This is fine for driving the vehicle all across the EU/EEA and most "friendly" countries, but at some point Russia decided that it would treat any border crossing by a non-owner (even an authorized user) as a potential attempt to import the vehicle, and require a full customs bond from the bank that owns the vehicle. Which a bank - technically owning thousands of vehicles - of course wouldn't do."
So yes, there was a legitimate problem where you could not cross into Russia in a leased private vehicle without loads of paperwork and putting up loads of money. It CAN happen, and the UK is now a third country, as much as Russia.



This is exactly what I want some clarity on, and even the professional motorcycle movers don't appear to know yet where they stand.
I want to van my bike, and those of some mates who are more time-poor than me, to Spain or Portugal, meet them off the plane and ride, but I can't even find out what to expect when getting off the ferry.

The only change for UK to EU is that you need a physical green card. Insurers are offering them for free, had one for work related stuff in the RoI and NL/Germany since Jan 1st. Health cover is also worth checking.

Taking a personal vehicle on holiday is not taking advertising material to an event, so no point comparing.

There is another potential positive (to go with our vaccine roll out). If they can issue a green card to go to Spain, will some enterprising insurer offer Morocco?

Andy

I posted about this in the transport section. Today I had spoke to the GBCC, who issue the ACU carnet’s, and CARS Europe, the UK Carnet issuer.

The results were not conclusive. According to GBCC, carnets are not required for road registered vehicles with a V5, and one vehicle can transport another vehicle - like a motorcaravan towing a car as long as it’s not a commercial operation

Confusion may arise with either more than one vehicle being towed, or taking a few mates bikes in the back of a van. According to GBCC nothing wrong or illegal in this, however, CARS told me anecdotally that a car that was towing a 2 vehicle trailer was asked for a 40% deposit on entry into Spain, and that taking 4-5 bikes may mean customs deem you to be a business and ask for freight and shipping paperwork.

And as it’s a unified approach across Europe [emoji848], apparently Spain are being difficult, Netherlands will wave you through and France it depends on the customs officer on the day.

Bit of an arse if you’ve just got off the ferry in Santander and customs ask you for the 40% deposit though, even if they’re not supposed to.


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CDP, mate, not green card.


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The history of European relations summed up in 20 words. Made me smile. Thank You. :rofl::thumbup1:

Andy

The only change is that you need a physical green card.

You did not need a CdP before. This has not changed. You do not need a CdP now.

Andy

See above! Things potentially change now if you have some bikes in the back of a van, that don’t belong to you and customs decide you need shipping documents - not a CDP, granted, but you’d still be stuck at the border or stumping up a deposit.

I’m sure it will all settle down by the time we can travel.


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Taking a personal vehicle across the border by yourself is not the same as taking a vehicle (or several) that you do not own across the border.

Correct.

Taking anything you do not own in any significant quantity will he viewed as likely commercial activity. You need export and import declarations with value, details of the owners, commodity code etc. This can be temporary for things like tools and a deposit/bond might be requested against VAT due if the import ends up permanent . Doesn't matter if it's a mates bike or a lorry load of fish. An import broker would get through a trailer of bikes for France in two minutes. When we sent pumps to Iran it took them a little longer!

CdP is for a vehicle to be driven on the road across the border.

What's amazing me most is that this is coming as a shock to anyone. The only way this could have been avoided was to remain in the customs union which was taken off the table directly after the referendum. The stupidly late announcement in December was only on tariffs and waiver agreements. They could have limited personal vehicles and required a CdP but did not. They could have charged 10% of a value of the lorry load of fish but they did not. The amusements of uniformed bullies encouraged or not by their political masters is just what happens, it'll calm down if they want a tourist industry . Be glad they don't yet have mirrored sunglasses and assault rifles.

Andy

Probably best that Wheelie doesn't take his torque wrench then .... :rofl:

This - well put Andy. I don't think there's a need to be too worried about ham-sandwich-confiscating Dutch customs officers becoming the norm! Does make a great headline for the Daily Mail though ;-).

And as ever it'll be as much about a new normal getting bedded in and refinements in the processes over time. Things are just a bit frozen ATM because of the lack of normal X-Channel traffic.

Nonetheless this has been a useful thread to discuss the ins and outs of things.

For my part, I feel more comfortable about taking my bike over in a van this summer, COVID restrictions dependent of course.

Thanks all,

Ed

I don't think this IS coming as a shock to anyone Andy. It's the frustration of not knowing or being able to find out what we can expect.
I certainly don't see there being a problem for someone transporting their own bike in their van or on the back of a motorhome.
Fingers crossed. First we must be set free...

I'm about to enter month 3 of work hell. January was about finding out people who own factories you can see from space and shipping companies school children shout out on road trips believed Brexit was going to go away and could be ignored doh. February was about closing the accounts of small businesses that refuse to get professional help, they'll have to buy from Amazon. This could have been avoided if they'd read literature both the government and suppliers sent out over the last 2 years. Everyone was too polite though . If it wasn't something that came as a shock to them it's attempted commercial suicide doh

There is the additional factor that the virus has sent markets mental. There are components you can order now for delivery in May, but May 2022 (you'd be expecting three weeks JIT :rofl:). I can't tell you what price though, that'll either be very high as current demand continues or very low after the bubble bursts. This means people are prepared to buy from anyone who has stock, so the paperwork bunged ports are choked with stuff going A to Q where A hadn't a clue where Q was and what their regs were until Q offered to pay double and ship past B, C, D etc. There is a worldwide shortage of shipping containers too because stuff is traveling silly distances and the boats have all slowed down to please St.Greta. This might all hit a lorry load of race bikes, but fortunately not a rider going on their holidays.

Andy

I was talking in terms of the contributors to this thread. I was not addressing the failure of the international business community at large to prepare for this upheaval. I sympathize with your despair at the lack of preparation in many quarters, but if my recent experience of government websites is anything to go by, the rules are inpenetrable to the layman and a good business opportunity for an independent customs regulations advisor!

Absolutely. Small businesses being too mean to employ a professional are one thing, but you'd think the organisers of race series that are on the telly would be better?

There is a resulting drive towards bigger providers. I think Billy Bike Truck etc. might make more sense now? A professional haulier used to the paperwork, plus you split the fees 20 ways not two or three.

Andy

Hi AnTyx:

Russia is a very unique country (to put it politely) so far as immigration & customs requirements are concerned. For that reason, I don't think it is appropriate to use Russia as an example in the context of this discussion.

Before I retired, I used to deliver aircraft from the factory in Canada to customers all over the world. In an average year, I would land in 60 to 70 different countries. Half of those countries didn't require me to have a visa because I was considered aircrew on duty. The other 49% required a visa, but when I explained on the visa application that I was just passing through, the visa was issued without further inquiry. For Russia, though, the visa application form was 3 pages long, took 6 weeks to process, and costs about $500.

Similarly, no country other than Russia ever wanted any kind of paperwork on the aircraft I was delivering. It was obvious that the aircraft was new and was destined for someplace else & would only be in the country for a day or two. Not Russia, though... there was a whole really complicated process where I had to (in effect) sign the aircraft into the country, and then sign it out again when I left the country.

I'm not throwing stones at Russia, they have their way of doing things, and the customs and immigration authorities I met were always very polite and very professional. But, holy crow, did they ever require a ton of paperwork!

TL;DR: Best to not use Russia for comparison with any other country.

Michael

I mean, Britain has announced that direct airside transit through Heathrow will require a visa, so I am not inclined to dismiss the ability of Britain to shoot itself in the face. :P

To paraphrase Sir Michael Caine in his latest movie - the British may not have a monopoly on pointless bureaucracy, but certainly a controlling interest.

Revisiting this thread after 6 months because I have found very little clarity has been shed anywhere on the subject of vanning bikes into Europe without their owners present.

I have just come back from a trip to Spain, which involved me transporting my bike and 5 others in my van for the use of my friends and I for 4 days trail riding. PreBrexit I would have used the Portsmouth Le Havre boat, and driven down, but having "heard" tales of mixed receptions from French Customs officers, and "better" results from Spanish ones, I chose Portsmouth Santander. Other internet chat mentioned taking proof of intent to use the bikes for personal transport for use on holiday, letters of authority, etc etc...

My experience is this:
On arrival in Santander, the immigration officer looked in the back of the van, and I was directed into the customs check/something to declare area. There I had a long ish chat with the Aduanero. I had no documentation other than the registration documents (V5s)
He told me that one driver and a couple of bikes, one of which being the driver's own, would be accepted as private transportation, and basically overlooked. However, a large quantity such as I was carrying, is considered freight, irrespective of whether payment was involved, and as such a customs declaration is required. The declaration should be for temporary import, and would not require payment of any duty.
Rather than refuse me entry, fine me or make me fill out countless forms, the gentleman asked for 3 randomly chosen V5s, checked the VIN and registration numbers against the bikes, told me to do it properly next time and sent me on my way.

On my exit from Spain, a different agent asked for the customs paperwork, I explained what happened on the way in, and the original guy also meandered over to confirm my story. This time all 6 V5s were looked at to check they matched the bikes, but VINs were not inspected.

Of course, winging it like that is not recommended(!!) and I was given the distinct impression, through my half decent Spanish and the agents' half decent English (there was a short mutual alphabet pronunciation lesson over Y, F and W!) that they understand the confusion and lack of official guidance, but my sort of behaviour will not be tolerated for much longer.

Now the question still remains: What sort of customs declaration is required?
Whilst in Spain I met a chap who gave me the web address of a company who deals in ATA Carnets - which appear to me to be for all sorts of equipment temporarily imported into Europe (for example film industry equipment, unregistered vehicles etc) I have yet to contact them, but I understand the ATA carnet to be a different document to the carnet de passage en douane which people on this forum will be more aware of as the document required when countries don't have a TViP system (temporary vehicle import permit)

The clouds have yet to clear on this subject, but I thought my experience should be recorded if only to confirm that people planning to van multiple bikes into Europe DO have some hoops to jump through.

Incidentally, one of the friends on my trip recently took a vintage Frazer Nash race car to Ireland (Republic of) for a mate of his, and had broadly the same experience, except his customs inspector threatened an on the spot duty fee, which for such a vehicle would have been a substantial sum!

The company dealing with ATA Carnets, for anyone wanting to investigate for themselves, is www.boomerangcarnets.co.uk