So here's my take on an example. You sell your US registered bike to another traveler some where outside the US. You sign over the title to them but forge a registration document with the new owner's name. With this registration, they can travel from country to country. Since it will get a TIP at each border and not be driving in the US with the fake reg, I don't see anything wrong with it.

Some of the rules that exist in many countries are there for reasons that have nothing to do with the activities of travelers, they are designed to protect their tax base, which don't apply to us anyway.

If it helps someone and hurts no one, i see no issue of morality at all.

Above the Law? No one gets hurt?
 

I will post in sea green, xfiltrate

I am continually amazed at the lack of reason and twisting of facts that I read here. Please try to project some semblance of reality in your posts, so others may not fall victim to your mistaken beliefs. Thank you, xfiltrate

PS. Before you say it, State to State title transfers are not considered "in absencia" in this context!!!

Forging Titles...
 

Breaking news, Last week in the heat of this morality conversation, I called one of my attorneys in Buenos Aires, Argentina regarding the legality of a foreign tourist selling a vehicle/moto having entered that vehicle/moto into Argentina aon a TVIP.

I did this because the Argentine Embassy in the United States and various other South American Embassies have yet responded to my queries submitted more than a month ago.

My Argentine attorney just returned my call (in Spanish) with he following:

"No, it would be illegal for a foreign tourist to sell a foreign registered vehicle/motorcycle to another foreign tourist while the vehicle/motorcycle was
permitted to circulate in Argentina on a TVIP. And, the penalties are very severe. If it came before the courts, first, the judge would order the confiscation of the vehicle/motorcycle and "denounce" both the seller and the buyer!!!
To denounce is to charge with a criminal offense!!! There have been cases resulting in a BIG fine and deportation after the fine was paid, and incarceration until the fine is paid.

With valid insurance... which would not be valid due to an illegal title transfer, the insurance company might provide "bail" and thus allowing the foreign tourist to get out of jail, but not leave the country until the fine/court proceeding were paid/concluded.

Furthermore, although, TVIP permits are turned in at the border post prior to the actual exit of Argentina, these laws apply until the vehicle has been issued a TVIP for a "limitrofos" or adjacent country. THERE IS NO LAND BETWEEN Argentina and another country WHERE THE LAWS OF EACH (depending on location) COUNTRY ARE NOT APPLICABLE!!! All MERCOSUR countries have the same laws as agreed by international convention. Any title transactions occurring between two MERCOSUR countries are illegal in the ficticious No Man's Land!!! are illegal.

I do not take what I post lightly, as fellow hubbers pocketbooks and freedoms are at stake. I do perform due diligence when posting.

This thread, IMHO has just been kicked up a notch from a moral issue to a criminal issue!

xfiltrate. Eat, Drink and Don't Forge Motor vehicle titles in South America.

PS: All MERCOSUR countries operate on the same principles regarding the sale of TVIP vehicle/motos...

Hi exfiltrate,
Great debate and I wish I had more time to write a more detailed input. However, there are a couple of points I'd like to make for your consideration xfiltrate.

In your replies to farqhuar and his financial 'eliteness', I would put it to you that almost everyone reading this forum belongs to the global elite as we ride comparatively luxurious motorcycles around the globe and are wealthy enough to take time off work to pursue our leisure activities.

Secondly, I have had the unpleasant task of being associated with two fatal road accidents during the last 10 years in Africa. Corpses have families, those are the people you deal with in the case of a death on the road. The question of documentation of the vehicles was never considered, angry crowds do not allow you to consult your insurance companies. You deal directly with the family, immediately. Consequently, insurance companies wriggle out of their responsibilities by saying they did not approve any payments, therefore the insurance document was essentially worthless in terms of a payout (under certain circumstances).

In my case I have presented fake documents to authorities as I have had my legitimate license stolen by police and not released until a bribe was paid. In this case, a devout universalist philosophy would be in absolute moral dilemma as you would then have to commit an immoral act (paying a bribe) as a direct result of an immoral act being perpetrated on you.

A universalist philosophy might seem attractive, however, believing what you think is right and applying that across all situations ultimately is the basis of colonization. Ie: my moral code is correct according to my culture and belief structure, therefore it should be the same across the diversity of the world.

There is one or two leaps of logic faith in my last two paragraphs but I don't have a lot of time (thankfully for the readers). Myself, I have a more configurational attitude when traveling, meaning I observe and adapt to the local norms. I would not consider showing a fake drivers license in New Zealand, nor operate non compliant vehicle because the chances of me being discovered and held responsible are very high.

In other countries the -ve outcomes are non-existent. However, according to my morals, I would not operate a dangerous vehicle if it was not an emergency. Example: a band of cut throats are invading the compound - dammit!!! Can't take the Honda to escape, it's got no MoT.

Universalism, configurational and contingency theories are the 3 main approaches to modern Human Resource Management especially relevant these days for companies that have operations in different cultures around the globe.

Thankfully, I'll stop here.
CJ.

africa v Latin America
 

[QUOTE=Cam Johnson;560415]Hi exfiltrate,
Great debate and I wish I had more time to write a more detailed input. However, there are a couple of points I'd like to make for your consideration xfiltrate.

Cam Johnson, what a pleasure it is to welcome input from someone who was actually there, in the fog of war, of a vehicle/moto fatality. And, my interest and experiences in Africa actually began in Freetown, Sierra Leone, where you are! Soon after I established my ranch in Flagstaff, Arizona as an NGO, (501(c)(3), for the purpose of providing a safe house for returning US Peace Corps volunteers, a volunteer - Dan A. arrived. His life had been saved by Mae Jemison (who was serving in Sierra Leone as the Peace Corps doctor) , the first black woman astronaut in space, when she comandered an Air Force plane via the US Embassy and medivaced Dan A. to a US military hospital in Germany. Dan and I became great friends and we welcomed hundreds of returned Peace Corps volunteers to the ranch. The majority of these volunteers had served in Africa. My hundreds of hours of conversations with these African based volunteers and the many books I have subsquently read describing the Colonists "scramble" for African resources and individual histories of many African nations plus the month or so rosa del desierto (she is Spanish) were in Morocco for our honeymoon compose my African knowledge.
read the Peace Corps section here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mae_Jemison

The greatest universal theme among all the African volunteers was the proximity of DEATH - death just seems to be a natural part of life in Africa. Death is evident almost everywhere in the rural areas. I believe you have settled with families of the dead, and probably for very little compensation. This, on the whole, is not the way death is handled in Latin America.

Another volunteer, Martha, who passed through the ranch was stationed hundreds of miles down a dirt road in Ghana, and to escape the heat of her hut...slept every night in the center of a very rural village with all the other women of the village, and on some nights listened to men beating their wives, yes wives, with a special stick called a wife beater. Dan A. and Martha are representative of the hundreds of Peace corps volunteers who had served in Africa and passed through my ranch.

On the other hand, my Mexican, Central American and South American knowledge comes from the academic and more than 25 years of residence south the the US border. I was a US Peace Corps volunteer in Costa Rica, I have a business, advertised on the HUBB, in Buenos Aires, Argentina where I am currently a permanent foreign resident. I have worked for the IRC in Mexico and have motorcycled/driven most of Mexico, all of Central America, and more than 55,000 K through 8 South American countries.

In overview, our basic difference appears to be our own experiences. I am not of the elite, I have never lived in a "compound," but always with the people. And, based on my Latin American experiences the overlanders I know are not wealthy, are traveling after saving for years and doing so during short term vacations.

I won't list them here, but the dates of independence for African countries and Latin American countries are dramatically different. With several exceptions, African independence is relatively recent when compared to Latin American independence. When the colonists pulled the plug on the established infrastructure of many African countries, governmental systems crumbled and many instituted a drastic change in the culture of government.

In contrast, with many more years of independence and similar colonizers, the Spanish and the Portuguese, with a few exceptions Latin American countries, in general have created much more substantial government interventions.

In your replies to farqhuar and his financial 'eliteness', I would put it to you that almost everyone reading this forum belongs to the global elite as we ride comparatively luxurious motorcycles around the globe and are wealthy enough to take time off work to pursue our leisure activities.
In my response to farqhuar I acknowledged his "elite" status and made it clear I was not commenting about him.

Secondly, I have had the unpleasant task of being associated with two fatal road accidents during the last 10 years in Africa. Corpses have families, those are the people you deal with in the case of a death on the road. The question of documentation of the vehicles was never considered, angry crowds do not allow you to consult your insurance companies. You deal directly with the family, immediately. Consequently, insurance companies wriggle out of their responsibilities by saying they did not approve any payments, therefore the insurance document was essentially worthless in terms of a payout (under certain circumstances).
I do not doubt your experiences, as I myself have participated in similar incidents with the "elite" Globebusters.com group during one of their South American sojourns. But, here we find a very important distinction between rural and urban "road accidents." In all major Latin American cities I have visited, the local, provincial/state or federal authority arrive very quickly to accidents involving major property damage or personal injury. The local authority is not trained nor tasked to investigate, so what happens is literally everyone goes to jail until a judge can sort out responsibility. And, I know this for a fact - all documentation will be validated. Especially in European like cities such as Buenos Aires, where the Federal police are equipped with the latest technology and com lines into international data banks.

In my case I have presented fake documents to authorities as I have had my legitimate license stolen by police and not released until a bribe was paid. In this case, a devout universalist philosophy would be in absolute moral dilemma as you would then have to commit an immoral act (paying a bribe) as a direct result of an immoral act being perpetrated on you.

Cam, I am simply trying to balance here the rampant advisories on the part of some who post here advocating the illegal selling buying of vehicles/motos in Mexico, Central and South America. You presenting a fake document to authorities, involves you and the authorities.

Many unexperienced riders travel, especially to Mexico and Central America from the States and either sell or buy foreign registered vehicles/motos from other travelers. There are few of us posting who describe the down side of such transactions. The seller and the buyer of vehicles/motos with forged titles both become libel in courts of law. Many "innocents" are scammed, by more seasoned overlanders into believing these transactions are legal. The result is the seller having forged documents is long gone and the buyer suffers the weight of legal responsibility.

A universalist philosophy might seem attractive, however, believing what you think is right and applying that across all situations ultimately is the basis of colonization. Ie: my moral code is correct according to my culture and belief structure, therefore it should be the same across the diversity of the world.

This is a soft ball argument. I am advocating only abiding by the local laws and regulations, not some universal morality. The only universality involved with my position are the conventions agreed upon by the MERCOSUR block of South American countries. Your universal non morality of ignoring local law and advocating forging apparently does seem very attractive to many.

There is one or two leaps of logic faith in my last two paragraphs but I don't have a lot of time (thankfully for the readers). Myself, I have a more configurational attitude when traveling, meaning I observe and adapt to the local norms. I would not consider showing a fake drivers license in New Zealand, nor operate non compliant vehicle because the chances of me being discovered and held responsible are very high.
My point exactly, negotiating with the families of corpses might be possible in rural Africa, but doubtful in most rural and all urban Latin America.

In other countries the -ve outcomes are non-existent. However, according to my morals, I would not operate a dangerous vehicle if it was not an emergency. Example: a band of cut throats are invading the compound - dammit!!! Can't take the Honda to escape, it's got no MoT.

Let's not let MOT determine our fate (AGREED) when confronted by a band of cut throats invading the compound. Gee, what's going on in the compound that would elicit such goings on? I have yet to meet a "band of cut throats." Maybe because I have never lived in a compound - oh I forgot - once I was evacuated from Ankara to an armed "compound" somewhere else, but was when I was a high school student.

Universalism, configurational and contingency theories are the 3 main approaches to modern Human Resource Management especially relevant these days for companies that have operations in different cultures around the globe.
I am not a fan of universalism nor configurationalism but I live on the many edges of contingency theory and plans everyday of my life and I try my very best to alert others when contingencies, unlike MOTs might be the life blood of survival.

Cam Johnson, thank you for making me think. You are invited to visit us at the ranch in Flagstaff where we will be until September or in Argentina.

Thankfully, I'll stop here.

Revisiting Morality and Law
 

In retrospect, I remember 1968, during the Tet offensive, when the US Marines were taking Hue from the Viet Cong. There was an international convention (Law) , much like the TVIP agreements (Law) among MERCOSUR countries of South America, that the US would not raise the Stars and Stripes.

These international conventions (Law) are not taken lightly, but when the US Marines for better or worst lowered the Viet Cong Flag and raised the Stars and Stripes, quite illegally, I concurred with that decision. The sight of the US Flag raised moral, a lot, among the Marines who had suffered 142 dead and 1,100 wounded and had no reinforcements in sight, and were running out of food and ammo.

So the next time you consider forging a vehicle/moto title quite illegally and in violation of international convention, please consider the City of Hue, South Vietnam as your litmus test.

Thanks, xfiltrate

Now back home from a circumnavigation of Sri Lanka. Very enjoyable journey, and yes, I drove "illegally" as I did not bother to get my IDP endorsed by the local AA in Colombo.

Not that it seemed to matter to the local police who randomly stop vehicles for licence and registration checks.

I was signalled to stop 3 times in 16 days of riding. I stopped twice - the 3rd time I didn't realise I was being hailed to stop (my wife told me subsequently) and continued on without consequence. On the two occasions I did stop no request was made to show the AA endorsement.

I highly recommend Sri Lanka as a destination. The major roads, especially in the North are in magnificent smooth condition and there were many instances when we didn't see another vehicle for 10 minutes or more at a time.

We also chose a fair number of sand/gravel backroads that only the locals took and really enjoyed the interactions we had.

You know, Xfitrate, after ten years of beating the same drum on every thread, aren't you tired? You thing is objecting to foreign travelers skirting laws in Latin America and elsewhere, even if those laws were made without any knowledge of international motorcycle travels and what it entails.

I don't give a crap weather it is illegal to sell a foreign motorcycle to another foreigner that will remove it from Argentina because it has nothing to do with Argentina. The bike goes in, it goes out, it does not get sold to an Argentinian who will still have to pay $30,000 for a V-Strom. No harm, no foul.

Same goes for forging documents that have no validity except for informational purposes and to record what vehicle with what owner and what plate entered and therefore must leave the country. So what if i forge a registration for a bike I own and create a plate for it that says it is registered in Azerbajan and I cross South America with it. Big deal, If it was actually registered in Azerbajan, the result would be the same. No harm, no foul.

I just don't get what your game is. do you also have a problem with all the international bikers who enter the US by land borders and don't get EPA waivers or TVIPs for their bikes which the law says they need? Who cares?

Maybe you have too much time on your hands. Maybe if you charged a reasonable parking fee at your place, you would have more customers and less time to pontificate endlessly on the same dreary subject.

Respectfully
VicMitch

Bravoooooo...klap..klap for answer VickMitch...

:thumbup1:

Good luck with your post VM. Most have given up engaging in sane dialogue with the OP. I do occasionally read his stuff, just for the comedy value. :surrender:

I suggest you're https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flogging_a_Dead_Horse

Attack the Messenger Instead of the Message
 

. "Respectfully" Do you really think it is respectful to attack me instead of my message? xfiltrate

After thoughts, I must be having a big impact on the HUBB or I would just be ignored rather than attacked. # of views don't lie, sorry boys if I have rocked your boat. And if a monitor is observing this thread please explain the rules of engagement here to chris. thanks

People are attacking the repeated ad nauseum message. They aren't attacking you personally. As VM said, for nearly as long as I've been on the HUBB you present the same story: Argentina.... TVIP.... Selling..... Illegal.... South America.... etc etc ad infinitum. People get what you're saying. And they continue to blissfully ignore you.

Could I suggest you add a link to this thread to your signature? Then to save you typing the same stuff repeatedly and stop people having to trawl through the magenta fog to find new info) you can just refer to your signature while also adding helpful, new information.

I understand those who say they are not "elite", and I don't know the cost of your bike, helmet, riding gear, and daily expenses for 6 months to 3 years. That being said, compared to the great mass of non-North European, non-North American populations, you are a walking bag of gold. There is a hint of superiority in not having to follow local laws that control what is on their roads. You may feel they are unfair and unnecessary, but so are most laws on robbery, murder, and smuggling. For me one of the constant irritations on my trips is people who feel they are above the mass of the local humanity. We travel to see new and different places and people living in ways we do not. To say you are above them is to say you are part of the elite. Sorry to offend anyone, just MNTBMFHO.

Well the thread's had a couple of months of life, everyone's had their chance to put their point of view, and seeing as it's descending into sparring I've closed it.