A Question of Morality - Forging Documents
 

Considering the other question of Morality - Flag Stickers quickly attained more than 500 views, I introduce here a definition of
"morality: " principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.

So I pose the question of the morality of forging documents, more specifically documents related to motorcycles and/or worldwide motorcycle travel.

My opinion, this question better subscribes itself to "morality" than the Flag Sticker question. Just turn your ads back on and look at any page of the Hubb and you will see stickers. I find the morality question might better be addressed in relationship to Flag Stickers regarding the morality of the content the sticker represents. A Flag is a Flag.

So how about it? A Question of Morality - Forging Documents?

xfiltrate

Please... do it as often as you can in order to achieve you travel dreams..:mchappy::mchappy::mchappy:

Safe ride

Before forging anything you should ask yourself could this impact negatively on anyone else in any way, if the answer is yes don't do it, if no I see no harm.

Morality for stickers is a strong word...

I would say Sticker Etiquette

forging docs
 

Thanks for bringing up this question Xfiltrate. I did not even click on the morality sticker thread.

And thanks to Mark for the answer. :thumbup1::thumbup1:

On my journey around the world by motorcycle I used my Finnish library card (no pic, my name written on with a pen, no word that anybody that does not speak Finnish could understand) as driving license or student card in most places. Only I think once or twice a policeman would ask me if this really is my driving license, and of course I said yes it is and he could not prove me wrong. It was more to entertain myself, than anything else, and of course one policeman in Senegal kept it because I refused to give him some colorfull paper called money.

In the end it is all a papergame (crossing borders, showing papers to the police) and also money is just paper. And as I see it as a game, I got better and better at it over the years ... and in 2015 i could even got into China without guide/agency ... but also sometimes I loose and give away some of the colorfull paper called money.

Just my 2 cents worth.
mika

Love your work Mika :rofl:
Life is just a game & you must entertain, even if it is just yourself at times :D
Paperwork is mostly aimed at government fundraising anyhow.
Sometimes it is nice to have a win against the system !:thumbup1:

Ah..come to think of Mika replay to your answer as a problem for fellow travelers as if they are holder of real drivers licence from Finland most likely will encounter problem showing the original....right ??

Or maybe what I did back in 2014 when I use photo shop to create registration
with US plate,present from my friend in Nevada, and rode my Suzuki DR 650 from Serbia to Japan crossing 9 borders ....?
Almost forget to ad that my International drivers licence was also made by very helpful ..photo shop.Now I am wondering ...how many people suffered from my action to..?? It was more to entertain myself, than anything else.

Safe ride

A Question of Morality - Forging Documents?
 

So I have posed the question of the morality of forging documents, more specifically documents related to motorcycles and/or worldwide motorcycle travel.
Please post your generation with your answer. Thanks.

Here are the birth years for each generation:

iGen, Gen Z or Centennials: Born 1996 and later.
Millennials or Gen Y: Born 1977 to 1995.
Generation X: Born 1965 to 1976.
Baby Boomers: Born 1946 to 1964.
Traditionalists or Silent Generation: Born 1945 and before.

I am a Baby Boomer.
Xfiltrate

It seems far too broad of a question to have one pat answer. I would have to say that it depends on the situation and urgency.


Sorry, I don't feel comfortable giving out my 'generational' info.

Problem is xfiltrate, that first step in applying the Mark Manly test is to know the rules, be able to read and comprehend the fine print in everyday legal documents and of course to have the emotional capacity to give a shit about the effect of ones actions on other people. Given that some are obviously unable to comprehend the outcome of their own actions on themselves, I doubt whether they would be too worried about anyone else

Forging Documents
 

Tony Lee, I have carefully read many of your posts and thus have great respect for your observations, your common sense and your perception of reality.

Many years ago, read 2007, when I laid down my first posts on the HUBB protesting the illegal forging of documents, I was inundated with cautions from those who had already posted for many years. The caution was - "don't waste your time, the majority of those who you respond to are an uneducated lot, uninterested in anyone or anything beyond their own limited horizons." "Most show little or no regard for the hard won rule of law that separates us from anarchy." "Most cannot even properly define anarchy or have ever conceptualized why there are laws."

And most harshly, were several statements that those who you protest because they are blatantly breaking the law and in some cases international law, are in a word, criminal, without the slightest remorse - and as Tony Lee has stated have very little understanding of the consequences their illegal actions might have on themselves and even less understanding or consideration of the consequences their illegal actions will have on others.

Thusly, I set about determining the reasoning of those who actively promoted the forging of documents - any legal document - irregardless of time and place or situation. Here is what I discovered.

Most of those who break the law do so because they truly believe everyone else is doing it. They see a successful man or woman and believe their success was stolen, that the only way to get ahead is to take advantage of others or society. This attitude is not innate in man, it is learned. Learned from those who surround the uninitiated in life's real experiences and teach the only way to survive is to lie, cheat and steal. These contra survival lessons are learned from that very small percentage of humanity - less than 5% who are truly evil without a social conscience - in clinical terms - sociopaths.

The 20% or so of humanity who have fallen victim to the real sociopaths are not all bad, not without a social conscience, they just value the real sociopath who has pretended to be their friend, even helped them survive, only to instill in them criminal behavior.

My message, hopefully understood, is to assure those who read here, that most people do not forge documents, that most people obey the law and that most people survive by good honest work. And, that most people are able to understand that governments have documents and laws for reasons that benefit the people.

It is true, that some laws are offensive, like the old laws permitting slavery, and laws that permit exploitation of workers etc, but laws that regulate the ownership of motorcycles or the entrance of motorcycles into foreign lands are not oppressive laws, they are laws designed to protect individual owners of motorcycles, the motorcycle industry of the country and indeed form the legal basis for which companies insuring motorcycle liabilities have base line statistics to determine insurance costs and benefits.

Any, repeat any forged document will null and void any insurance coverage purchased and without insurance, unless one is financial solvent - an accident involving personal injury or substantial property damage will land YOU in prison, possibly a foreign prison, until a judge determines if you are liable and if so until all liabilities are paid.

I have worked as a US Peace Corps volunteer, with the IRC and as a stringer for the LA times in Latin America. I have lived and worked in Latin America for more than 20 years. I have witnessed those condoning forgery of documents suffer at their own hand because they refuse to understand the consequences of their actions on themselves and on others.

I have hope, and I pray this thread might contradict the philosophy that life is only for entertainment - like some artificial action movie or some video game. Yes, life is a game, a game called survival and part of that game is helping others survive.

Stop forging documents now, for entertainment purposes or for any purpose and reach out and help someone else survive by making sure you have valid ownership of your motorcycle, you and your motorcycle are legally in country and your insurance is valid because it is based on real documents, not forgeries. Gracias Amigos. Un Abrazo!

xfiltrate

Eloquently put.

This discussion can be taken a lot further in the overlanding context, and another good example of laws that seem to be made to be broken and in practice are broken over and over are the international agreements that allow us to enjoy our international nomadic existence.
One such is the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic and a summary can be found on wikipedia, which simply put states that unless your vehicle complies with all technical requirements for current registration in the home state and the registration documents are carried, then entry to a foreign country is not permitted under the convention.

So most countries requiring MOTs, TUVs and any of the various safety and pollution tests as a condition of registration and that cancel registrations and license plates if not renewed result in the vehicle not meeting requirements of that Convention.

There was a long discussion a few months ago on this topic on a famous facebook group and it comes up on most forums from time to time and while it was generally agreed that the rules are there and should be obeyed, but because particular home countries made it impossible to meet the conditions of the Convention because they do require tests and insurance before renewing registrations, then everyone was perfectly justified in ignoring it. Also partly reinforced by the plain fact that almost no other countries give two hoots about it either and rarely check currency of registration at the point of entry.
Probably no case studies to look at, or overlanders are extraordinary careful to not have accidents but one wonders what happens in a serious accident and a smart lawyer gets involved. One anonymous legal opinion given on panamericana forum stated that invalid registration back home means obtaining TIP by false swearing/deception and therefore is invalid which means any insurance is also invalid. But he also said that nobody seems to care so maybe the whole situation is best not discussed.

I have to admit to stretching things a little bit, but one incident was a stretch too far.
Was going to buy a Swiss vehicle until I found out that Swiss law does not allow a vehicle out of the country (other than for a certain period and only provided insurance is current) and still retain valid registration and license plates. I was told the plates were fake and the documentation too but no problems since he would give me a receipt and a poder. Was a very expensive vehicle so I wanted to know how I could sell it on with just a poder. No problem I was told, I would get several poders with blank places for myself and any subsequent owners to fill out each time the vehicle changed hands.

As I said, a stretch too far.

I am a boomer. I feel that if you wish to forge documents or any other illegal activities in your fulfilling your quest for adventure, go ahead, I won't rat you out. I also won't bail you out. I have known people who looted burial grounds, sent the goods out of the country so they could be turned into bracelets, when caught, fined, deported, looked for sympathy. Its not a crime until you get caught, then everyone who follows is given a rough time. It only takes one policeman whose father was Finnish to give you a bad day.:nono:.

xfiltrate your question has rather moved on and become more specific. To me the answer is "it depends". For the most part I believe Mark Manley's answer hits the spot. A "crime" is really only morally wrong if someone suffers.

Your point I think is that it could be yourself that suffers if you get it wrong. Travelling on forged ownership papers, driving licence or insurance could indeed get you into hot water. Police don't only work to extract money from us, they also have a role in stopping theft, terrorism, etc. If you have forged ID or driving licence and you get into an accident or are checked in a region where terrorism is a big risk you could be in big trouble.

Then again I see no problem making copies of genuine IDs, driving licences etc in case of corrupt cops threatening to confiscate them.

Forging Documents?
 

Good Morning Kazakhstan,

Des Senior, yes, damaging only oneself still damages someone.

Your second point is a good one. I carry a second wallet with a copy of my DL, passport, expired credit cards in my name and other innocuous identification like library cards, expired student IDs etc for the purpose of handing over in the event of attempted robbery or solicitation by an obviously corrupt official. And, I keep about $20.00 USD in that wallet. My plan is to hand over or drop or throw the decoy wallet and leave.

I would only hand over the original of my DL or passport in the confines of a secure location with other police monitoring, like at a border. I have shown the originals, but never handed them over.

I am not naive, I know there is corruption in every country, but I also know, as you have pointed, possible suspected terrorists in the area, that relying on forged documents might exacerbate the situation. Using forged documents might certainly be the cause of further detention and investigation.

And, if the forged document has to do with the motorcycle or TVIP (temporary vehicle import permit) it provides a loop hole for your insurance company that allows the company to legally deny paying bail, attorneys fees and damages to others. And, not having valid insurance absolutely risks hurting others and yourself.

A question - rosa and I will be riding 2 BMWs, from Spain to Latvia in 2018, and then would like to ride from Latvia to Kazakhstan and beyond, which months would have the best riding weather?

Thanks for your excellent comments.
xfiltrate

a question of morality
 

Hi again,

sure I dont expect all of you to agree with my way of doing things, you dont have to, its your journey and you have to be happy.

at Grumpy Geezer

... I think this policeman would just start laughing, :rofl:, but dont know, I have never met him.

at Xfilterate

... do you really believe this? But I think this would be a different topic (thread) and not related to mc travel. Enjoy your journey to Eastern Europe and Asia.

All the best to you all with what ever paper you use, and thanks to all for the interesting answers, I will leave this thread now. bier

mika

It's all well and good xfiltrate to adopt a higher moral ground, and state that if I hurt myself that that is also damage to be eschewed/avoided.

However, I believe that there is far too much grey area and I basically adopt Mark Manley's approach to deciding whether to conform or not.

In addition, like Mika says, it is foolish to believe that governments have our best interests at heart when writing laws, or that government officials are always working in our best interest when attempting to enforce them.

To give you a couple of simple examples.

First, some - not all - countries require a rider/driver to present an IDP before being allowed to ride in that country. Usually, this is because the IDP has translation pages for different languages/scripts for countries where the average law enforcer would not be able to read the language of your home country (or state) licence. If this is the case, then it it is a good thing and I can see the benefits

However, whilst my home country licence lasts for 10 years and costs me $AUD140 an IDP lasts for only 1 year and costs $35 to renew. In order to obtain an IDP I simply present money and a passport photo that reasonably matches the photo on my licence - no ID checks or licence validity checks are required. In addition, the IDP fee is not paid to the Australian government but to my local automobile club

In 2014 I spent 2 months riding around Indonesia and felt no qualms whatsoever in taking an old expired IDP and manually changing the date from 2011 to 2014. Who did it hurt, and how did it affect my ability to ride in a foreign country? The automobile club keeps no record of my applying for an IDP (not even issuing a receipt for the transaction). Had I had an accident it would have made no difference to any insurance I held.

As a second example, even more farcical than the first, I plan to ride in Sri Lanka in the very near future.

Sri Lanka has a unique requirement that states that not only do I have to have to carry my Australian licence, and an IDP, but that I also have to make a special trip to take my IDP to the local automobile club (AA) in Colombo and have them issue an "endorsement letter" for the princely sum of $US35 before I can legally drive in Sri Lanka.

What does this letter achieve - neither it, nor my IDP, have Sinhalese translations of my Australia license - in terms of helping a local policeman make road travel in Sri Lanka safer.

In both of the above examples the only people to benefit are the local automobile clubs - private businesses whose primary business is provision of roadside breakdown and repair services.

To suggest the purpose of requiring these documents is anything other than pure profit to the issuer is arrant nonsense (ok, I do also accept that maybe there was profit for the government official who legislated the above requirement in return for a bribe from the automobile clubs).

Would I feel morally guilty in forging documentation in the above circumstances? - absolutely not!

Would I perhaps have a fear about being caught for forging such documents? - maybe, and I may decide the risk/reward equation doesn't justify it.

I am sure there are many other similar examples that others have. I can go back over 40 years to when I wasted inordinate hours trying to get government officials to stamp my carnet OUT of a country when I wanted to leave. It's all very good for them to insist you can't bring your vehicle into the country without required documentation but where is the recipricocity when you need them to document your departure in order not to forfeiture a bond equivalent to more than the value of your vehicle.

In summary, is the law an ass? Answer, yes, quite often.

Should one feel morally guilty about treating it as an ass in these circumstances? Answer - No, never.

Forging documents?
 

Farqhuar wrote:

In 2014 I spent 2 months riding around Indonesia and felt no qualms whatsoever in taking an old expired IDP and manually changing the date from 2011 to 2014. Who did it hurt, and how did it affect my ability to ride in a foreign country? The automobile club keeps no record of my applying for an IDP (not even issuing a receipt for the transaction). In 2014 I spent 2 months riding around Indonesia and felt no qualms whatsoever in taking an old expired IDP and manually changing the date from 2011 to 2014. Who did it hurt, and how did it affect my ability to ride in a foreign country? The automobile club keeps no record of my applying for an IDP (not even issuing a receipt for the transaction). Had I had an accident it would have made no difference to any insurance I held.

Farqhuar, thank you for your comprehensive but misleading response to my - as you put it - "adopting the moral high ground".

Your statement that "Had I had an accident it would have made no difference to any insurance I held." is not only misleading but might inspire others to follow your example . So I will share what I know to be true.

If your comment relates to your group or individual health insurance, separate from your motorcycle insurance, you might be right, but if you are claiming that illegally operating your motorcycle by driving permit or TIVIP, makes no difference to your liability coverage for that motorcycle, please post here after you have had an accident and I am certain you will discover that your illegal operation of an insured motorcycle (as described) will release your insurance company from any liability. Or, just read your policy disclaimers generally found in very fine print.

Look, unless your damages have been paid or you have collected from your motorcycle insurance company, while operating your motorcycle illegally, after you have caused personal injury or substantial property damage please set the record straight. Insurance companies only insure legally operated motorcycles/vehicles. This is an irrefutable fact. I know it is very difficult for some to understand this, but it is fact.

It matters little to me that you attempt to belittle my desire to present the facts about forging documents related to the operation or title of motorcycles and you are able to tunnel vision yourself into some justification or another. The facts remain the same no matter what you believe. The problem is many will also believe you until they have an accident. This is very unfortunate.

xfiltrate

This thread is swerving wildly off course. I would be surprised if anyone disagreed it was legally wrong to forge paperwork. How much sleep you lose over it depends on if you believe laws in general and specifically in that country count for jack. If you have an incident in the country and your papers aren't up to muster, you'll have to face the consequences...

The morality, on the other hand... I'm in Mark and Mika's corner. The only 2 things I'll admit to on a public forum is using a Paris metro season ticket (with photo and stamp from the Eiffel Tower on the back: those were the days when I was able to run up and down it...) that I used in the Middle East around the turn of the Millennium as a student id and was able to get much cheaper entry into major tourist attractions. In Egypt where some people saw through my ruse, I tried to buy an illegal student card from an illegal student card seller. He refused as he didn't like my attitude (never had that problem before or since :rofl: ). So I got my mate to buy one and I just swapped the pictures. I recall the name on the card was Roger Buttocks or something similarly puerile :innocent:

What are the morals of claiming UFOs exist?

Regarding the request for my generation: I think the question is jack, so I'll contribute the following as an :offtopic: wind up

Forging Documents?
 

Chris, as always thanks for your comments especially the vintage M-TV clip, and the more frivolous question regarding the morality of claiming UFOs exist which is more of a swerve than looking beyond the morality of forging documents.

And, finally, thank you for understanding, well at least reading, the possible consequences of forging documents - which was the hoped for goal that was the inspiration for creating this thread.

Who has stated UFOs exist - I am a qualified MUFON mufon.com investigator and have searched 3 continents over a ten year period and have never seen a UFO. I would like, very much to interview anyone who claims to have seen a UFO, been abducted or witnessed unexplained cattle/animal mutilations. Please PM

Off topic, but due to the large number of unexplained cattle mutilations between Chile and Argentina, 3000 reported cases during the last ten years, I have suggested one possibility is space tourism, this would entail serving up world class Argentine beef asado - as in flight meals.

For further information from science regarding unexplained cattle mutilations go to earthfiles.com

Eat, Drink and Fly Intergalactically whenever possible - I do
xfiltrate

Generally, I would say don't forge. Copy, yes.
However, sometimes needs must.
On my trip to India, my travelling companion obtained an https://www.theaa.com/travel/icmv from the AA in the UK. My bike was French registered and nowhere could I find the equivalent in France.

Now, visiting such different countries on route, it seemed a good idea to have all the vehicle info in a multi-lingual format. The ICMV comes with EN, FR, DE, IT, SP, Port, RUS, Arabic, Persian. We also had a translation made to Mandarin.
We dismembered the booklet and made high quality copies that were printed onto paper/card of the same colour.

We then made two copies, one for each bike and showing the correct info for both bikes and riders.
Worked a treat and saved many hassles at borders and checkpoints because it was easily understood.

Is that so wrong? Not in my little book:innocent:

Hello


In Switzerland, it's a bit different from other countries.

The numberplate is personaly linked to the holder of the registration and proof of insurance(green card). Change of ownership of a vehicule = new numberplate.

There are no restrictions on leaving the country with a swiss registered vehicule.

BUT, if you want to have the numberplates , you have to pay for insurance(green card) and taxes. If you stop paying, the police comes to your home an takes the numberplates.
If your on the road, no problem, but when you return home, big problem.

When on a RTW, WITH original numberplates and paying insurace, all is legal but expensive (green card useless outside europe).
(Problem is when the vehicule needs to go to the road savety inspection but your on a RTW)

SO, almost all cars and some bikes send the numberplates home once they have left europe, to avoid paying for useless insurance.

Then they make their own numberplates, only recognizable to other Swiss.

THE PROBLEM is, then you are on the road illegally, if you have an accident, the insurance you have bought in the local country is invalid.

In africa probably not a problem, but in Australia, USA, Canada, some lawyer might find this to avoid his insurance company to pay for your accident.

sushi

Above the Law?
 

For my esteemed colleagues who believe they are above the law.

Sometimes they are!

https://youtu.be/xzah0ylNTdc

xfiltrate

Hello

FOX News...:rofl:
Let's rename this thread to "alternativ documents".

sushi

Or PTD.... "Post Truth Documents"


X: Do we know the status of the stunt rider's papers? Forged or real? :innocent:


How about this video? Maybe this is why "adventure bikes" a la big KTM/BMW are getting more and more horsepower: to outrun the police if the bike has fake papers :rofl:

Think you'd need "alternative" number plates if playing that game, preferably ones that belong to a "safety" camera van :rolleyes2:

I am impressed how clean and safe the highway was. Warning: DO NOT attempt this in Louisiana. The shoulders are bumpy and full of trash, the drivers do not drive well, very slow drivers have a habit of blocking both lanes, and planes will be called in to catch the perp. Almost no one gets away with a high speed chase, there are too many drunks on the road.

Xfiltrate, thank you for your reply, however, I maintain my disagreement.

Sadly, you have not responded to my comments with regard to "morality" at all. You also make the assumption that if I was to injure a 3rd party I would attempt to wriggle out of any obligations. I am sufficiently wealthy to more than fund any compensation to injured parties - well in excess of any insurance coverage requirements for countries I travel through.

Apart from 1st world countries (where IDPs are typically not required in any case), when you travel outside your home country it is just about impossible to take out any insurance, other than what is mandatorily required by law when you enter a new country. This insurance is typically limited to third party personal damage - in other words, injury to person (s) that you cause whilst travelling on a public road.

In addition, as you say, the insurance company will use any excuse it can to weasel out of its obligations and is generally not worth the paper it is written on, never mind the money you pay for it.

Should you actually have an accident, regardless of whether you are at fault, I am sure you would be aware, in other than 1st world countries the normal method of compensation is a form of negotiation whereby you financially compensate the other party with cash, on the spot.

With respect to accidents in 1st world countries, I would like to use my home country as an example.

In Australia, every person who is injured on a road by any other person - in any incident, even a single vehicle accident, or even falling over crossing a road, is automatically covered by law for medical fees, long term disability and time away from work. This applies regardless of who is fault and regardless of whether any party is unlicensed, uninsured or in breach of any road laws.

Next week it will be 45 years since I obtained my motorcycle licence. Since then I have spent many of those years outside of Australia living, riding, driving and bicycling in just about every country on this planet. I am yet to have a collision with any other vehicle or person and have received only one traffic infringement (in Canada, for driving in the emergency lane when my engine was overheating), but have hit a number of animals and have also fallen off on poor roads (I elected not to seek compensation from the animal's family or from the government road builders in these instances).

So you see, there is no moral issue at all.

Not meant to be personal!
 

Farqhaur, you seemed to have taken this discussion very personally. My intention is not to demean you or the wealthy class. For your words, you seem to be an honorable person who would meet his obligations. It is unfortunate that you and perhaps others have failed to notice I am just attempting to help the "others" the masses, of which I am one, to meet their obligations. My post was not meant to be about you. So, if you took it personally I do apolize.

Eat, Drink, and don't forge documents

xfiltrate

So here's my take on an example. You sell your US registered bike to another traveler some where outside the US. You sign over the title to them but forge a registration document with the new owner's name. With this registration, they can travel from country to country. Since it will get a TIP at each border and not be driving in the US with the fake reg, I don't see anything wrong with it.

Some of the rules that exist in many countries are there for reasons that have nothing to do with the activities of travelers, they are designed to protect their tax base, which don't apply to us anyway.

If it helps someone and hurts no one, i see no issue of morality at all.

Above the Law? No one gets hurt?
 

I will post in sea green, xfiltrate

I am continually amazed at the lack of reason and twisting of facts that I read here. Please try to project some semblance of reality in your posts, so others may not fall victim to your mistaken beliefs. Thank you, xfiltrate

PS. Before you say it, State to State title transfers are not considered "in absencia" in this context!!!

Forging Titles...
 

Breaking news, Last week in the heat of this morality conversation, I called one of my attorneys in Buenos Aires, Argentina regarding the legality of a foreign tourist selling a vehicle/moto having entered that vehicle/moto into Argentina aon a TVIP.

I did this because the Argentine Embassy in the United States and various other South American Embassies have yet responded to my queries submitted more than a month ago.

My Argentine attorney just returned my call (in Spanish) with he following:

"No, it would be illegal for a foreign tourist to sell a foreign registered vehicle/motorcycle to another foreign tourist while the vehicle/motorcycle was
permitted to circulate in Argentina on a TVIP. And, the penalties are very severe. If it came before the courts, first, the judge would order the confiscation of the vehicle/motorcycle and "denounce" both the seller and the buyer!!!
To denounce is to charge with a criminal offense!!! There have been cases resulting in a BIG fine and deportation after the fine was paid, and incarceration until the fine is paid.

With valid insurance... which would not be valid due to an illegal title transfer, the insurance company might provide "bail" and thus allowing the foreign tourist to get out of jail, but not leave the country until the fine/court proceeding were paid/concluded.

Furthermore, although, TVIP permits are turned in at the border post prior to the actual exit of Argentina, these laws apply until the vehicle has been issued a TVIP for a "limitrofos" or adjacent country. THERE IS NO LAND BETWEEN Argentina and another country WHERE THE LAWS OF EACH (depending on location) COUNTRY ARE NOT APPLICABLE!!! All MERCOSUR countries have the same laws as agreed by international convention. Any title transactions occurring between two MERCOSUR countries are illegal in the ficticious No Man's Land!!! are illegal.

I do not take what I post lightly, as fellow hubbers pocketbooks and freedoms are at stake. I do perform due diligence when posting.

This thread, IMHO has just been kicked up a notch from a moral issue to a criminal issue!

xfiltrate. Eat, Drink and Don't Forge Motor vehicle titles in South America.

PS: All MERCOSUR countries operate on the same principles regarding the sale of TVIP vehicle/motos...

Hi exfiltrate,
Great debate and I wish I had more time to write a more detailed input. However, there are a couple of points I'd like to make for your consideration xfiltrate.

In your replies to farqhuar and his financial 'eliteness', I would put it to you that almost everyone reading this forum belongs to the global elite as we ride comparatively luxurious motorcycles around the globe and are wealthy enough to take time off work to pursue our leisure activities.

Secondly, I have had the unpleasant task of being associated with two fatal road accidents during the last 10 years in Africa. Corpses have families, those are the people you deal with in the case of a death on the road. The question of documentation of the vehicles was never considered, angry crowds do not allow you to consult your insurance companies. You deal directly with the family, immediately. Consequently, insurance companies wriggle out of their responsibilities by saying they did not approve any payments, therefore the insurance document was essentially worthless in terms of a payout (under certain circumstances).

In my case I have presented fake documents to authorities as I have had my legitimate license stolen by police and not released until a bribe was paid. In this case, a devout universalist philosophy would be in absolute moral dilemma as you would then have to commit an immoral act (paying a bribe) as a direct result of an immoral act being perpetrated on you.

A universalist philosophy might seem attractive, however, believing what you think is right and applying that across all situations ultimately is the basis of colonization. Ie: my moral code is correct according to my culture and belief structure, therefore it should be the same across the diversity of the world.

There is one or two leaps of logic faith in my last two paragraphs but I don't have a lot of time (thankfully for the readers). Myself, I have a more configurational attitude when traveling, meaning I observe and adapt to the local norms. I would not consider showing a fake drivers license in New Zealand, nor operate non compliant vehicle because the chances of me being discovered and held responsible are very high.

In other countries the -ve outcomes are non-existent. However, according to my morals, I would not operate a dangerous vehicle if it was not an emergency. Example: a band of cut throats are invading the compound - dammit!!! Can't take the Honda to escape, it's got no MoT.

Universalism, configurational and contingency theories are the 3 main approaches to modern Human Resource Management especially relevant these days for companies that have operations in different cultures around the globe.

Thankfully, I'll stop here.
CJ.

africa v Latin America
 

[QUOTE=Cam Johnson;560415]Hi exfiltrate,
Great debate and I wish I had more time to write a more detailed input. However, there are a couple of points I'd like to make for your consideration xfiltrate.

Cam Johnson, what a pleasure it is to welcome input from someone who was actually there, in the fog of war, of a vehicle/moto fatality. And, my interest and experiences in Africa actually began in Freetown, Sierra Leone, where you are! Soon after I established my ranch in Flagstaff, Arizona as an NGO, (501(c)(3), for the purpose of providing a safe house for returning US Peace Corps volunteers, a volunteer - Dan A. arrived. His life had been saved by Mae Jemison (who was serving in Sierra Leone as the Peace Corps doctor) , the first black woman astronaut in space, when she comandered an Air Force plane via the US Embassy and medivaced Dan A. to a US military hospital in Germany. Dan and I became great friends and we welcomed hundreds of returned Peace Corps volunteers to the ranch. The majority of these volunteers had served in Africa. My hundreds of hours of conversations with these African based volunteers and the many books I have subsquently read describing the Colonists "scramble" for African resources and individual histories of many African nations plus the month or so rosa del desierto (she is Spanish) were in Morocco for our honeymoon compose my African knowledge.
read the Peace Corps section here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mae_Jemison

The greatest universal theme among all the African volunteers was the proximity of DEATH - death just seems to be a natural part of life in Africa. Death is evident almost everywhere in the rural areas. I believe you have settled with families of the dead, and probably for very little compensation. This, on the whole, is not the way death is handled in Latin America.

Another volunteer, Martha, who passed through the ranch was stationed hundreds of miles down a dirt road in Ghana, and to escape the heat of her hut...slept every night in the center of a very rural village with all the other women of the village, and on some nights listened to men beating their wives, yes wives, with a special stick called a wife beater. Dan A. and Martha are representative of the hundreds of Peace corps volunteers who had served in Africa and passed through my ranch.

On the other hand, my Mexican, Central American and South American knowledge comes from the academic and more than 25 years of residence south the the US border. I was a US Peace Corps volunteer in Costa Rica, I have a business, advertised on the HUBB, in Buenos Aires, Argentina where I am currently a permanent foreign resident. I have worked for the IRC in Mexico and have motorcycled/driven most of Mexico, all of Central America, and more than 55,000 K through 8 South American countries.

In overview, our basic difference appears to be our own experiences. I am not of the elite, I have never lived in a "compound," but always with the people. And, based on my Latin American experiences the overlanders I know are not wealthy, are traveling after saving for years and doing so during short term vacations.

I won't list them here, but the dates of independence for African countries and Latin American countries are dramatically different. With several exceptions, African independence is relatively recent when compared to Latin American independence. When the colonists pulled the plug on the established infrastructure of many African countries, governmental systems crumbled and many instituted a drastic change in the culture of government.

In contrast, with many more years of independence and similar colonizers, the Spanish and the Portuguese, with a few exceptions Latin American countries, in general have created much more substantial government interventions.

In your replies to farqhuar and his financial 'eliteness', I would put it to you that almost everyone reading this forum belongs to the global elite as we ride comparatively luxurious motorcycles around the globe and are wealthy enough to take time off work to pursue our leisure activities.
In my response to farqhuar I acknowledged his "elite" status and made it clear I was not commenting about him.

Secondly, I have had the unpleasant task of being associated with two fatal road accidents during the last 10 years in Africa. Corpses have families, those are the people you deal with in the case of a death on the road. The question of documentation of the vehicles was never considered, angry crowds do not allow you to consult your insurance companies. You deal directly with the family, immediately. Consequently, insurance companies wriggle out of their responsibilities by saying they did not approve any payments, therefore the insurance document was essentially worthless in terms of a payout (under certain circumstances).
I do not doubt your experiences, as I myself have participated in similar incidents with the "elite" Globebusters.com group during one of their South American sojourns. But, here we find a very important distinction between rural and urban "road accidents." In all major Latin American cities I have visited, the local, provincial/state or federal authority arrive very quickly to accidents involving major property damage or personal injury. The local authority is not trained nor tasked to investigate, so what happens is literally everyone goes to jail until a judge can sort out responsibility. And, I know this for a fact - all documentation will be validated. Especially in European like cities such as Buenos Aires, where the Federal police are equipped with the latest technology and com lines into international data banks.

In my case I have presented fake documents to authorities as I have had my legitimate license stolen by police and not released until a bribe was paid. In this case, a devout universalist philosophy would be in absolute moral dilemma as you would then have to commit an immoral act (paying a bribe) as a direct result of an immoral act being perpetrated on you.

Cam, I am simply trying to balance here the rampant advisories on the part of some who post here advocating the illegal selling buying of vehicles/motos in Mexico, Central and South America. You presenting a fake document to authorities, involves you and the authorities.

Many unexperienced riders travel, especially to Mexico and Central America from the States and either sell or buy foreign registered vehicles/motos from other travelers. There are few of us posting who describe the down side of such transactions. The seller and the buyer of vehicles/motos with forged titles both become libel in courts of law. Many "innocents" are scammed, by more seasoned overlanders into believing these transactions are legal. The result is the seller having forged documents is long gone and the buyer suffers the weight of legal responsibility.

A universalist philosophy might seem attractive, however, believing what you think is right and applying that across all situations ultimately is the basis of colonization. Ie: my moral code is correct according to my culture and belief structure, therefore it should be the same across the diversity of the world.

This is a soft ball argument. I am advocating only abiding by the local laws and regulations, not some universal morality. The only universality involved with my position are the conventions agreed upon by the MERCOSUR block of South American countries. Your universal non morality of ignoring local law and advocating forging apparently does seem very attractive to many.

There is one or two leaps of logic faith in my last two paragraphs but I don't have a lot of time (thankfully for the readers). Myself, I have a more configurational attitude when traveling, meaning I observe and adapt to the local norms. I would not consider showing a fake drivers license in New Zealand, nor operate non compliant vehicle because the chances of me being discovered and held responsible are very high.
My point exactly, negotiating with the families of corpses might be possible in rural Africa, but doubtful in most rural and all urban Latin America.

In other countries the -ve outcomes are non-existent. However, according to my morals, I would not operate a dangerous vehicle if it was not an emergency. Example: a band of cut throats are invading the compound - dammit!!! Can't take the Honda to escape, it's got no MoT.

Let's not let MOT determine our fate (AGREED) when confronted by a band of cut throats invading the compound. Gee, what's going on in the compound that would elicit such goings on? I have yet to meet a "band of cut throats." Maybe because I have never lived in a compound - oh I forgot - once I was evacuated from Ankara to an armed "compound" somewhere else, but was when I was a high school student.

Universalism, configurational and contingency theories are the 3 main approaches to modern Human Resource Management especially relevant these days for companies that have operations in different cultures around the globe.
I am not a fan of universalism nor configurationalism but I live on the many edges of contingency theory and plans everyday of my life and I try my very best to alert others when contingencies, unlike MOTs might be the life blood of survival.

Cam Johnson, thank you for making me think. You are invited to visit us at the ranch in Flagstaff where we will be until September or in Argentina.

Thankfully, I'll stop here.

Revisiting Morality and Law
 

In retrospect, I remember 1968, during the Tet offensive, when the US Marines were taking Hue from the Viet Cong. There was an international convention (Law) , much like the TVIP agreements (Law) among MERCOSUR countries of South America, that the US would not raise the Stars and Stripes.

These international conventions (Law) are not taken lightly, but when the US Marines for better or worst lowered the Viet Cong Flag and raised the Stars and Stripes, quite illegally, I concurred with that decision. The sight of the US Flag raised moral, a lot, among the Marines who had suffered 142 dead and 1,100 wounded and had no reinforcements in sight, and were running out of food and ammo.

So the next time you consider forging a vehicle/moto title quite illegally and in violation of international convention, please consider the City of Hue, South Vietnam as your litmus test.

Thanks, xfiltrate

Now back home from a circumnavigation of Sri Lanka. Very enjoyable journey, and yes, I drove "illegally" as I did not bother to get my IDP endorsed by the local AA in Colombo.

Not that it seemed to matter to the local police who randomly stop vehicles for licence and registration checks.

I was signalled to stop 3 times in 16 days of riding. I stopped twice - the 3rd time I didn't realise I was being hailed to stop (my wife told me subsequently) and continued on without consequence. On the two occasions I did stop no request was made to show the AA endorsement.

I highly recommend Sri Lanka as a destination. The major roads, especially in the North are in magnificent smooth condition and there were many instances when we didn't see another vehicle for 10 minutes or more at a time.

We also chose a fair number of sand/gravel backroads that only the locals took and really enjoyed the interactions we had.

You know, Xfitrate, after ten years of beating the same drum on every thread, aren't you tired? You thing is objecting to foreign travelers skirting laws in Latin America and elsewhere, even if those laws were made without any knowledge of international motorcycle travels and what it entails.

I don't give a crap weather it is illegal to sell a foreign motorcycle to another foreigner that will remove it from Argentina because it has nothing to do with Argentina. The bike goes in, it goes out, it does not get sold to an Argentinian who will still have to pay $30,000 for a V-Strom. No harm, no foul.

Same goes for forging documents that have no validity except for informational purposes and to record what vehicle with what owner and what plate entered and therefore must leave the country. So what if i forge a registration for a bike I own and create a plate for it that says it is registered in Azerbajan and I cross South America with it. Big deal, If it was actually registered in Azerbajan, the result would be the same. No harm, no foul.

I just don't get what your game is. do you also have a problem with all the international bikers who enter the US by land borders and don't get EPA waivers or TVIPs for their bikes which the law says they need? Who cares?

Maybe you have too much time on your hands. Maybe if you charged a reasonable parking fee at your place, you would have more customers and less time to pontificate endlessly on the same dreary subject.

Respectfully
VicMitch

Bravoooooo...klap..klap for answer VickMitch...

:thumbup1:

Good luck with your post VM. Most have given up engaging in sane dialogue with the OP. I do occasionally read his stuff, just for the comedy value. :surrender:

I suggest you're https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flogging_a_Dead_Horse

Attack the Messenger Instead of the Message
 

. "Respectfully" Do you really think it is respectful to attack me instead of my message? xfiltrate

After thoughts, I must be having a big impact on the HUBB or I would just be ignored rather than attacked. # of views don't lie, sorry boys if I have rocked your boat. And if a monitor is observing this thread please explain the rules of engagement here to chris. thanks

People are attacking the repeated ad nauseum message. They aren't attacking you personally. As VM said, for nearly as long as I've been on the HUBB you present the same story: Argentina.... TVIP.... Selling..... Illegal.... South America.... etc etc ad infinitum. People get what you're saying. And they continue to blissfully ignore you.

Could I suggest you add a link to this thread to your signature? Then to save you typing the same stuff repeatedly and stop people having to trawl through the magenta fog to find new info) you can just refer to your signature while also adding helpful, new information.

I understand those who say they are not "elite", and I don't know the cost of your bike, helmet, riding gear, and daily expenses for 6 months to 3 years. That being said, compared to the great mass of non-North European, non-North American populations, you are a walking bag of gold. There is a hint of superiority in not having to follow local laws that control what is on their roads. You may feel they are unfair and unnecessary, but so are most laws on robbery, murder, and smuggling. For me one of the constant irritations on my trips is people who feel they are above the mass of the local humanity. We travel to see new and different places and people living in ways we do not. To say you are above them is to say you are part of the elite. Sorry to offend anyone, just MNTBMFHO.

Well the thread's had a couple of months of life, everyone's had their chance to put their point of view, and seeing as it's descending into sparring I've closed it.