Personal protection devices Morocco, Western Sahara, etc
 

Despite spending much of my time travelling solo I've never felt concerned for my personal safety in Morocco. It's always seemed a safe place compared to parts of the UK I could mention. It could also be because before I went on my megadiet this year I was built like a brick sh*t house and felt nobody would mess with me. But having lost 50kg in weight I now feel a bit more frail.

On the ferry back from Santander last October I met another HUBBer who recounted that he had been robbed whilst wild camping in Western Sahara. He was solo, there were two guys. He was concerned they were drugged up. He didn't know whether they were carrying knives but suspected this might be the case, so he let them go through his things and help themselves whilst he stood there watching.

Hearing this made me very angry, and since then I've given a great deal of thought as to how I would react in a similar situation, especially as I'm a bit headstrong.

Pulling a knife on them might just elicit a mad laugh and a taunt to use it, or worse, they could do a 'Crocodile Dundee' and pull out massive machetes. So I don't think that makes sense. A gun is a much better idea but even assuming you'd somehow managed to get it though police and customs checks, would you really use it against some poor drugged up guys.

What I've done for for the moment is to source some 40ml red pepper spray made by KKS in Germany. This is small enough to be carried in my jacket whenever I'm in a dubious area, has a range of six meters with accurate range of three metres. There's a safety mechanism on top to ensure you don't self-administer. :)

My feeling is that I would be far more prepared to use this (and without warning) knowing the risk of permanent damage to the muggers is small. But then what? You've got two guys rolling around on the floor who in a little while are going to recover and be really peed off, and in the meantime you have to pack up your tent and gear. So the second phase of my draft plan is to use cable ties to handcuff their wrists and possibly their legs. I have some extremely wide and long cable ties secured to the frame of my bike and can whip a couple of these out in just one or two seconds.

The likehood of customs finding the cannister is tiny. As the web site says, this is a personal defence mechanism against wild dogs and other wild animals so that would be my excuse if it was found. You could, of course, remove all the labels from it so there's no clue to the contents and stick it in the toilet bag like a deodorant stick.

I have to say I still don't know whether I would use the pepper spray in anger, but I think that when you have this level or preparedness you 'walk tall' compared to others and your consequential body vibes and confidence mean you are less likely to be targeted.

Does anyone have any alternative suggestions--other than standing back and letting them get on with it?

Tim

I think it would be easier to put some weight back on!

I wouldn't take the labels off, what if some customs officer is going through your toiletries and accidently sprays himself in the eye? That might not end well...

I also think the zipties are a bad idea--so you've got one or more pepper-sprayed, pissed off guys flailing around on the ground, and you expect to be able to zip tie them without putting yourself in danger? Stay out of arms reach, I would say. If you use the pepper spray, I would hop on my bike and get the hell out of dodge, unless the miscreants were clearly a couple of harmless punks (but you can never be sure, can you?).

So what do you do? Park somewhere secure (hotel?) or where you won't be seen, don't bring much of value, keep anything of value on your person but don't convince yourself that it is worth getting hurt for. Clearly not a perfect approach, but better than anything else I've heard yet. Travelling solo is just not the time or place to plan on going Rambo.

[EDIT] And as you suggest, a lot of it is about body language...there are probably a fair number of petty thieves that are not willing to tangle with "bad ass" bikers like us...if someone is willing to mess with me (hasn't happened yet), I will probably assume that they are armed/high/drunk/all of the above) and proceed accordingly.

Thanks for sharing your concern. I'm going to Morocco in the spring, and if a Morocco vet like you is concerned, I'm concerned...

I wonder where this Hubber was camped exactly in WS when he got turned over?

As we all know when wild camping it's better not to do so near settlements, not to be seen leaving the highway and then park up out of sight and take it easy with the lights.
Sometimes I wait a while before unpacking to make sure I feel secure, even to the point of not getting a tent/bag out until I'm ready to actually use them. This is usually in the first couple of days when one is nervous.

The more vulnerable/exposed you feel the more effort you take over all this, as I learned from my early travels.

I know the feeling of vulnerability when your whole camp is spread out on the desert sand and a couple of drunk guys turn up. Luckily they've just been curious or friendly or scrounging, as is the local way.

My impression is North Africa is a safe place; it's never occurred to me to carry Mace there.

I think you may have dieted too far Tim. Get stuck in this Xmas!

Ch

(I can sense this post is going to be popular)

Carry a baseball bat ,then you can whack 'em after you've pepper sprayed 'em .
Unconscious; they can then be cable tied .

A bike of over 1000cc is advisable ,then you can drag 'em out into the desert for the jackals to feast on .

Blimey Tim that's two small labradors !!

The self protection thing is very difficult.

If you appear dangerous, will the potential mugger stay away or will more initial force be used against you ?

I think to take on two blokes (even pissed / stoned) you’ll need to be handy.

One option is to be to be fairly meek and let them take something (your spare wallet, and some odds and sods) while making sure your important stuff is well hidden.

Another would be to go on a course to learn some self-defence. My brother is a bit of a little squirt, but working as he does in a well-known secure “Hospital” he has been trained in defence and restraint techniques. I doubt there are many blokes who could get one over on him (maybe if they walked up behind and twatted him with a bat or something). He doesn’t do any fancy Nintendo / Origami moves; just a few pressure points and knowing how to use your assailant’s weight.

One of my workmates does Jujitsu and is always trying his moves out on our apprentice “imagine you are coming at me with a sharp piece of mango”

I suppose you have to hope that if you did manage to defend yourself and your attacker runs off, that he doesn’t come back with a few of his mates before you can pack all your stuff away and move on.

Some lessons in something might just give you a bit more confidence so you didn’t feel more at risk than you really are. One of the lads I went to Morocco with was convinced that everyone who looked at him was about to mug / rape him. Mind you he is from Manchester so maybe that’s what he is used to.

Ooops ! I’ve rambled again

Personal protection
 

Self defence weapons.
Very tricky subject, what is legal in one country is a big no-no next door, what is normal in the hills may be banned in the low country. My personal experience is varied, I have only had a couple of bad experiences wild-camping, and managed to keep my kit and finances intact. I was attacked by a dog pack south of Essouriera in Marroc after getting stuck in sand, but I was in a car; camping on the ground I might have been in trouble.
Rather than specific weapons a powerful and effective spray is probably the best way to go, I have no idea where they are legal/illegal. I use a stout walking stick, because of a plastic knee, and many potential bad guys see that as a weapon, and often comment on it.
”Big stick, mister”
”Yepp”
I have to add that I have only used it a couple of times in anger, and once I provoked a lot of ill-feeling in a crowd of touts in Hampi by giving a bag thief a swift upward stroke to the balls. I think if I had used the handle to catch him by the neck the crowd would have been on my side, everyone likes to see someone else made a fool of.
In towns, where there is always a threat of room theft, mugging, pickpocketing, or assault it’s a different situation, and different precautions. My experience in the countryside is that there are people about, animal shepherds or whatever, so if you really want to be unnoticed you have to be very careful and clever. No fire, no lights, no cooking – not much fun.
Prevention is better than cure, if you look aware, and ”handy” that helps. Driving a bike also gives a lot of cred, but means you have all your kit ”on display”. A lot of items can be used as weapons, as well as their normal use, but unless you are prepared to use real violence and cause serious personal injury I think you might only escalate the situation by threats and counter threats, and lose the element of surprise.
In most countries we travel through we are seen as obscenely rich, natural targets for wealth redistribution, and even though I don’t like it, it is a reality. This thread was about wild camping, and personal protection, no-one to help, but no witnesses either, which can play both ways, and in most remote areas I have been there is no problem. Maybe this changes. If Tim Cullis is worried....
Safe travels
Peter, in Oslo

get ya sen one of those small fire extinquishers.
comes in handy for all sorts of things..
the uk police use em on drugs raids were the scumbags first form of defence is the pitbull.as some one else says out of site out of mind ..

Tim you do know that this sort of spray is classified as a firearm in the UK and posession of some here can get you into deep shit.

Q

Getting robbed became routine in Colombia. One of my pals with a temper got mad and tried to fight back, which rendered him a few knife cuts. Couple days later he was tetanic.
I would be more worried about causing real harm to someone else in a faraway place than loosing a few earthly possessions. That could mean real trouble, as the locals may not be on your side even if you were actually being robbed. And local law enforcement may very well also not be on your side.
Carrying weapons could easily escalate the violence.
That said I am also thinking about a defense spray...

My friend is a policeofficer in inner city Liverpool. You can imagine its no country lane beat...

Naming no names, many officers use their BIG Maglite torces as very affective weapons when dealing with violent unsaviouries as they don't need to fill in paperwork for using it as opposed to about 20 forms for drawing their truntion.

These things are BIG and HARD and can be used as a Cosh (and are) in many self defence classes.

Obviously, its just a torch, but one that can break bones and certainly the skulls of drugged up crims. Fits nicely on your luggage, is waterproof and is always handy around camp and kept next to your sleeping bag.

As the base is screwed on, you can replace it with many headache making extras like in this picture.

You can also get a Police 6-Cell version which is the real deal peacemaker !!

I'm crossing Africa next year and hoping that my shaved head Scouser appearance while wearing body armour and wielding a large maglite will be enough to put anyone off.


http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5056/sany0747gk1.jpg

http://www.source-werbeartikel.com/p...14_schwarz.jpg

So far I have never had any issues (touch wood it remains that way, especially as I travel with my girlfriend too).

Admittedly, the first few nights I go camping anywhere I am a bit wary, just because my tent lacks the double-glazing and locked door of my flat etc.

What ever planning you might have made, and implements packed, if it ever came down to it, I think there would be incalculabe degrees of luck in whose favour it all panned out. Particularly as, if they are robbers, they probably have more practice and know what they intend, when you, the camper, are caught unawares and don't know what they intend...

If you introduce any weapon into the equation, it becomes one more weapon that could end up being used against you.

As I think Chris first mooted, the best defence is people not knowing you are there to beging with, IMHO.

Leave the road unseen, preferrably where tracks are not too visible. Have some distance/obstacles between you and the road, and avoid the unessary use of light after dark. One torch in a pitch black landscape is a beacon for miles around. same with noise: sound carries at night too...

Not so nice, but if you think you're in a dodgy area, a small price to pay

Not a bad call, although kinda big to carry on the bike. I usually carry a min-Maglite but the effect is probably not quite the same...

Well, its the price you pay for a little piece of mind and at least you can use it for a decent torch too. Plus, it will gain no attention from police/military.

Obviously any weapon is totally useless unless you personality to use it..

Carrying guns, machetes and knifes as protection is useless because if someone calls your bluff, could any of us actually bring ourselves to stab or hack at someone ???? I don't think I could unless my life was being seriously threatened.

The best advice would just to have nothing really worth stealing and keeping valuables well concealed..

No fancy camera or cash is worth your life at the end of the day. If you get mugged, let em have what they want if you're out numbered or outgunned.

Get insurance.

You can get an easily fitted handle designed to turn a maglite into a police baton, I suppose so a man on the beat doesn't have to carry both. So issued as a weapon to some forces I believe.

Pepper spray is sold in the truckstop on the N10 just south of Angouleme in France quite openly, about 6euros for a small can, or about 10 for a big one. A seriously big no no in the UK however, and I don't know about any other country?

Friends of mine in the UK police say its not an ideal weapon for several reasons.

Some people are immune, so your assailant may be perfectly fine and coming at you covered in the stuff.

The wind could blow it all back on you and not where you wanted, will you consider your position in relation to the wind before release?!

The nozzle is not well designed to indicate where its pointing. Bearing in mind the state you may be in when needing to use it, many people have ended up spraying themselves at close range, making the robbers job considerably easier while laughing at you immobilised on the floor :)
Even if you manage to discharge it where you want with the intended effect, the chances of you being entirely unaffected are slim because it goes everywhere, so being able to see to ride off may not be possible!

The general suggestion is to practice first! Waste a can or two at a target seeing if you can use it, and what its effect on you is. Even a small bit may make you in no fit state other than sitting in the shade using a lot of water to ease your burning eyeballs!!

I think a big stick is a good plan myself, other than handing over whatever they want so their mates just round the corner don't need to come and help him.


Congrats on such a huge weight loss too!!! :)

Firstly, Tim - you've dieted away 50kg this year! Well done, that must take a hell of a lot of willpower. Was it just because you decided it was time to do something or medical or something else? Whatever, it's a big achievement. I try to go on "get myself into shape" regime when I've got a trip planned and it usually takes me 6 months to lose 2" off my waist :(

No wonder you're feeling a bit vulnerable now that there's only one of you rather than two, but it hasn't made Morocco any more dangerous, has it? Like you I've never felt threatened there. Annoyed, niggled, sick of being hassled at times and occasionally worried, but never threatened.

Some years ago I was wild camping in Western Sahara and I took all the precautions that Chris Scott mentioned. I was at least 100 miles from the nearest town, I turned off the road when no one was around and continued for at least 1/4 mile. I stopped behind a rise where I could see the road and waited at least half an hour before unpacking the bike.

45 mins later I heard a car stop exactly where I'd pulled off and two men got out. They walked around for a minute or two examining the ground. I was really worried, this couldn't be a coincidence, why would they stop exactly there? They must have seen my tyre tracks and thought " one bike - easy prey". No, it was just two guys stopping for evening prayers and looking for somewhere to put their mats down. They were gone in 10 mins.
(Paranoid, me?)

With respect to Big Yellow Tractor I'm not sure that a few self defence lessons (or even a lot of them) is going to help much. I did 10 yrs of Karate (many years ago). My son and an old friend of mine are both 2nd Dan Karate black belts and my son has competed at international level. Neither of them say it makes them feel safer in dodgy areas. It does make you fitter so you can run faster though!

People (adults) who start karate training often do so for self defence reasons but it usually takes a good five years before most beginners have a reasonable skill set and by that time they've usually found out the hard way in training how uncertain a proposition one on one can be.

Remember Michael Caine in "Get Carter" talking to someone about to take him on - "You're big but you're out of condition and I do this for a living".

I've never taken anything with me on a trip that was intended for use as a weapon. It may be because I'm indoctrinated with the (recent) UK mindset that anything at all that could possibly be used offensively is out of bounds or that occasional stop and searches in Africa have stripped everything down so it would be difficult to conceal anything of much use but mainly because none of it is that important to me.

Ok, I'm not going to give it all away to the first guy that turns up with a hard stare and I have been prepared to fight on a couple of occasions but I've always considered that the psychological effect of having a knife / pepper spray etc on me would be to raise the level at which I'd give up. I've always been pretty fit but now, as I'm getting a bit older, it seems less like a good idea to be facing up to someone 30yrs younger armed with a knife.

Agreed, I think it is the best suggestion so far, but I'm still not sure I'd bother to carry one.

This is getting about as much attention at that thread a few years ago from an American asking advice about carrying a gun (but without the character attacks for even thinking of asking that question :thumbup1:)

Frankly, I would let them have my stuff. I don't wanna lose my life defending things that are replaceable. But if it comes down to defending your life... use any and everything you can, even if it lands you in legal trouble!

A smaller maglite that is just longer than the width of your palm, held inside your fist, and brought down onto something that'll hurt them with the end just proud is quite effective I'm told?

Or similarly;

Kubotan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Did a Kubotan course when I was still into my kick-boxing.

A cursory effort as it was a day course just for kicks (excuse the pun). However, I can say that to use it effectively you would need to be well-rehearsed in pressure points and have a very good degree of hand eye coordination to make it any more effective than a punch: you need to be just as close.

Me? At the first sign of trouble I leap for the nearest log and, within seconds, whittle it into a life-size replica of a Desert Eagle handgun.

Works everytime I imagine it...

In the half-light of dusk I just hope they can't see the grain of the wood down the barrel....

Very Interesting thread.

I did a Krav Maga course which was very interesting and exhausting. Theres a lot you can do with a simple object such as a pen or maglite. Knowing how to disarm someone and get out of strangle holds is very useful, especially when I spend a lot of time walking back from nights out. They take this into consideration too when they teach you; realising you may be drunk when counter attacking so they make you dizzy before a sparing session and then you take on four blokes/lasses.

This being said, if a guy with a pistol held me up at a cash machine and I was with a group of people I would proabably let hime get away with it knowing that I was responsible for any stray bullet.

On your own against street scum and crack heads with knives is childs play, out in the sticks with god knows who pointing an assult rifle at you is a different matter. Your best weapon is your mind; a crack head isnt gonna want to shoot you in the middle of a city, but a bloke in the middle of the desert probably would given half the chance.

If I'm honest, I would say that was a very unwise assumption to make....

I can think of far more shootings in cities than in the country side and a crack-head in need of their next fix is about the most desperate, unpredicatble person you could come across....

Well, that bloke in the desert just watching while they robbed him! ...jeez..

it might be unwise but I'd have launched in with a huge boot to the head of the biggest one and then only had the smaller one to deal with. I couldnt just stand there like a wally.....

with regards pepper spray is illegal in quite a few countries and is not as effective as you might think, the bear spray type if im not mistaken is stronger version with better range but then again can u drive after you got some on yourself. Squeezy jif lemons[lemon juice ina plastic lemon shaped bottle] also work and were a favourite for neds before they decided bleach was more effective.
The idea of self defence is not to stand there and beat the crap out of your attacker its to get away as quick as possible whether it be from hand to hand or even at slight range.

A rape alarm is pretty good get the non electronic ones they are louder legal everywhere and at range will stun them for a few secs and close to the head will burst eardrums we had them in the prison service so I know how effective they can be. they also draw attention

The maglite again is a great idea at night it will cause them to lose night vision for a few secs and if you carry the larger ones they are very effective as a baton use it over your shoulder[ holding it with bottom of your hand up] and its already in a strike position. Aim for thigh or arm[if they have a knife] this will give them a dead arm or leg. IF you hit the leg theres a good chance they will get another step in before the leg hit collapses so move back. A strong hit to the head will kill them[not a good idea]. Hit the knee and again they could be disabled for life.

Mini maglites can very easily be used like a cubiton baton, they are pretty much a baton which sticks above the grip by about 2 inches and were issued to female officers these are used like a stabbing motion again going for arm/leg for the dead leg effect can also be used in a thrust to the chest to wind them. Pound coin holders or anything short and hard can be used even a folded map. DOnt put your thumb over teh maglite glass end!

Extendable batons are available the asp style ones are the best just make sure no one is behind you when u flick them out and dont extend them into your own leg. The american style ones with the side arm were not as good as they bent when you hit people know alot of coppers who went back to asps but again these are pretty much weapons.

To quote the old self defence instructor who I used to help teach women basics with the best form of self defence is very simply
"Dont be there"

or you could buy a ural and have a big dog in the sidecar

Nah, his grip on the offending weapon will be uneven, his vision clouded and his stance unsure. Combine that with the offender trying to conceal his actions and you have the odds in your favour.

"Nah, his grip on the offending weapon will be uneven, his vision clouded and his stance unsure. Combine that with the offender trying to conceal his actions and you have the odds in your favour."

the problem being is does he actually give a monkeys about concealing his actions and at point blank range will he miss.

when it comes to guns give them what they want, as its not worth it, items can be repalced you can not.

when it comes to knifes prepare to be cut if you go for it as even the best trained folk can make mistakes.

when it comes to everything else just hope your more commited than the other guy and if your outmatched help arrives in time to save your ass.

Ive seen crack heads carve themselves up and then laugh at 5-6 guys putting full control locks on them and smack heads laugh as you kick them in the balls with steel toe caps on. Not to mention the criminal insane guys who are already on enough tranqs to put a horse out still kick off. They may all feel it the next day but that doesnt help you.

Best just to show some common sense and miss any problems in the first place. If it looks wrong or feels wrong bail Id rather feel foolish than pain.

I wasn't commenting on his ability to shoot cherries off cigarette ends at 30 paces, but rather his willingness to pull the trigger.

As for the odds: if someone is pointing a gun at you, the odds are NOT in your favour, unless the assailant is suffering from the later stages of lock-jaw and the gun is one of my log-whittled Desert Eagles...

Still, if you feel gun-totting junkies are no cause for concern: good luck to you; personally, I'd be diving through the nearest open doorway.

Good mantra!!

Hi all
I've been following this thinking.....this is all a bit OTT for rural Morocco, no??
Obviously recent events in North Africa are making everyone on edge, but should they translate into feeling unsafe in Morocco?
I've certainly never felt threatened there in any way.
I guess cities are more of an issue, but are we really in any more danger than in the wrong part of any major city in the UK?
I still believe (thankfully, or what's the point) that a traveller in Morocco, with the right attitude, is infinitely more likely to be invited to tea than have a gun/knife pulled on them. And, in the unlikely event that it does all go tits up, let them take what they want and live to travel another day.
Just my two penneth worth.

Sam

Indeed so. In the UK, pepper sprays are classed as prohibited weapons under section 5 of the Firearms Act (1968, as amended). Basically, they are in the same league as machine guns, nail bombs, RPG rocket launchers or weapons grade uranium. Minimum sentence on being caught with a pepper spray - 6 years in jail.

Geoffrey Kolbe

Tim

This is like finding out Father Christmas is a myth.

The reason I kept thinking about the scenario after talking to the fellow HUBBer on the ferry was that apparently we had had some correspondence before his trip and he had taken some of my advice so I felt partly responsible in some way.

Not that he'd mentioned wild camping in Western Sahara.

I ought to stress again that I've never been at all concerned for my personal safety in Morocco in some 40 trips over 37 years. I've solo wild camped without problems and normally choose somewhere not too far from a village.

I bought the pepper spray on a whim whilst in Germany. I won't be taking it on my next trip to Morocco (Feb 2010) but if I head further south again I think it will find its way into my bags.

As some have already said...pepper sprays are considered an offensive weapon and therefore illegal in many countries.
Anything can be used as a weapon , for instance 12 inch long steel tyre levers , and something i have used to scare away angry dogs is a can of wd-40 and a lighter.. used as a primitive flame thrower !
And remember...he who runs away lives to run away another day .Stuff can be replaced you cant .

I feel the streets of UK cities at night are far more intimidating that 'downtown Morocco', for what its worth I have to agree with 'Caminando':eek3:
but if push comes to shove my favoured accessory would be a baseball bat, but then again, I feel even the theft of a tent peg would warrant a game of 'baseball':rofl:

The thread about taking a gun to Mexico went bad when someone posted that he did take one and what a good idea it was to have. I and most people here know better than to take a gun any place out side of the US. It is poor advice to have a gun any place on a overland bike that is the problem most people had with it.

If you want talk about items that in theory can be used as a weapons that are of use to you day to day then I can add some.
WD-40 or almost any spray (hair spray chain oil)and a lighter, the lighter it self tossed in a fire(big boom may hurt yourself more than them), a walking cane, staff, stick, a chain, a long nail (bo shulken, not legal most places but most people will not know what one is), 80 proof booz and fire and the list can go on and on. Then there is pepper spray as stated or if you want pepper powder both will do the job but you can cook with powder, place in a small jar pull the lid and fling it in to the eyes hurts like a bugger.

But as far as personal safety that is a personal thing. I rather have all my stuff taken then wind up bleeding out in the desert. Hell I help the load up the stuff see if they let me have the bike and SD cards in my camera most of rest can be had at most any place. May not be as nice kit but I think I can make do. I amto old fat and slow to put up a long fight so the whole MA thing is out for me. Once you pull any thing you better be willing to run and give up your kit as you need ride away fast, hurt them so bad there going run away or kill them. My junk is gust not worth me taking a life. For me I gust go if some one gets some stuff so be it I hate it but not worth fretting about, and I have lost more things than has ever been taken from me (3 set of kit now).

Nuclear belt
 

How about a nuclear belt made in Iran? That is a good device for anger bikers. It can keep your back tied when travelling gravel roads, but also if being robbed you can scream “Inschalahh” and send the thieves to their paradise in one bloody second. The bad side effect (or collateral damage) is that everything else in ten miles around (even you) will go to the same place. But for sure the f****g drunk robbers will learn the lesson. Do not bother any biker carrying a big belt!!

Seriously: the last thing I want when travelling is being robbed. But something worst is being in legal problems in that kind of countries we all love to ride. So even in the rare case I can smash, knock or stab the thieves to protect my small luggage, I will be more worried about a journey to the local dirty jail than loosing few possessions. I have been never in that kind of trouble because two reasons: First: Jesus loves me. Second: I am not stupid. I protect my self with common sense.

The worst situation I had was in Volvograd, Russia, with some drunk guys in a crappy hotel. They did not want to rob me, but they wanted a gang bang (sex in group) with me as a guest starring. I am not very good looking and I am also sure that proposal could be fantastic for other guys, but not for me. So I decided stop drinking vodka and leave the place in that right moment. They were shouting at me meanwhile I started my bike. “It is mistake. It is not what you are thinking!”. Probably not, but who in the Hells wants to give them an opportunity to drill your ass?

http://africanmotorcycletrip.blogspot.com/

Is wild camping in Western Sahara more risky than the rest of rural Morocco?

I'm planning to do the Assa to Smara piste as part of a route around Morocco next April / May and will be wild camping.

Not ever been in a situation where I needed to use a weapon, but I'm not sure I would want to hit someone hard enough so they would not get up.

Hmm, one guy has been robbed.

To be honest I don’t see the problem. We don’t know anything about what he did prior to the robbery. Where did he camp? Who did he talk with? Did he use light after dark? Etc.

Let’s say that you manage to scare the guys away. What next?
The guys will probably return, maybe with some friends, maybe with weapons and I guess they will be angry…. There is nowhere to go because it’s dark and you can’t go anywhere without signalizing to the rest of the world where you are going.
If you get beaten up it might be impossible to drive, you are stranded.

I’ve spend a few days in an African prison and I think it’s far better to be robbed, you will probably get robbed in prison after all…

I'd be interested to hear peoples takes on this. Me.....i don't think so (or at least, not from my experiences so far!)

Me too, i've got 5 weeks in Feb/March and wil be wild camping my way around Morocco and W Sahara. I wont be getting 'tooled up'

+1
Maybe being 5 foot-not-very-much and built like a matchstick has something to do with it, but even if i was an 18 stone bruiser, i'd rather avoid a situation where i was going to seriously hurt someone.

I will look out for your safe return then, any tips would be gratefully recieved :) I'm off on the 16th April.

I'll let you know how i get on for sure :thumbup1:

Hi Tim congrats on the lard loss, my take on feeling unsafe is if you belive it is unsafe you will look like a potential victim, however it can make you more aware of your surroundings as well as paranoid.!

I have done both judo & karate for close to 30 years and know without doubt any confontation can be won with confidence to challenge the aggressors, I mean verbally or in body language, head up eye contact and hands where they can be seen, if they persist then let them have your stuff you can buy more if they want something else run away if you can.
Dignity is for the dead.!

weapons of all kinds need experience in use and are for very last resort eg if they are preventing you from leaving then club them and leave asap and get at least into the next district before stopping.

in my own situation I was wild camping in Senegal and was woken by soldiers checking out my stuff through the windows in my truck.
I was confronted by well dressed & equiped soldiers telling me i must give them this or that and then asking for beer.!.
I gave only my fiche and then got angry with them for being so rude, I asked lots of questions about who they were and why they were in my camp all without letting them answer, they drifted off after 15mins or so with only my fiche, i found that later as i traced my wheel marks back to the road.

Tim you know the score you been there and worn out the T shirt, but i do wonder when the crap happening in muri turns north west.

Phew...!

I too felt perfectly safe wherever we went Morocco. The people could not have been friendlier, or more willing to help.

If bikers look threatening enough to have been left alone (touch wood), I'm currently practising driving my 4*4 in my bike gear, with my lucky pants on of course. If I leave the heater fan on and my visor down that should push any pepperspray well away from me. I also have the Birdy Song poised for instant release on the stereo to stun and confuse any would be attacker.

Tim, I see that you've lost 50kg - think that I may have found them.....:eek3:

I legally own guns, including an automatic pistol. I think taking one on the bike is akin to carrying a couple of spare wheels on a bike. One might possibly be useful but for sure more trouble than it is worth.

Years ago ( early sixties) a friend and I were touring around Britain on our bikes. both 500's his a Velocette, mine a Triumph. We were not too far from Boscombe down in late evening with failing light not having found a suitable campsite when we rode past a small woods. We stopped and rode into the woods a little way then found a small clearing, and set up camp. I used the machete to rig something over the campfire which consisted of a primus. About 1-2 am we were awakened by a clanking sound coming closer and closer. My friend said to me "where's the machete".
"In my hand came my reply".
The clanking went away. In the morning it came back in the form of an old night watchman pushing his bike along a path in the woods, with his over loose chain clanking on the frame.
So much for "dark imaginings".

I own a gun = I have a small penis and need a way to compensate !


Just my 2 inches on the whole thing.

Bush Wackers
 

Elisa and I were bush camping in Las Pampas near Santa Isabel, Argentina.

That night we intended to observe and video the "Luz mala" thus far unexplained strange lights that appear there regularly in the night sky.

We were isolated well off the road after riding a soft sand tract for 2 K It was afternoon, our tent was pitched and our bikes nearby with saddlebags locked, tank bags, and most gear zipped in the tent and all was well.

From further down the sand track, I heard the sound of motorcycles as they struggled with the sand. Ut OH...

One look at the band approaching and I knew we might be in trouble, there were five bikes and 5 guys. This was not your friendly local motorcycle club, or a Harley Owners Group, but some very hard core looking Argentines.

I told Elisa to get her bike keys in hand, ride like hell and call for help, if I take these guys on. I carry a Bowie knife when touring.
Bowie knife - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just as imagined they roared into our camp and I could tell immediately they were drunk, 2 dismounted, and asked what we were dong? The others still on their bikes began drinking again from big beer bottles

The leader, biggest guy, walked directly to my bike and started trying to unsip a locked saddlebag. I shouted in spanish, " wait a minute I want to show you something."

I ducked into the tent and came out with my "boludometro" everyone in Argentina knows who a "boludo" is... a boludo is someone who is dumber than dirt, sand in this case.... and does stupid things, calling someone a "boludo" is fun among Argentine friends, but an insult to strangers.

I told the leader that we were here to test my "boludometro" ,an invention of mine with the help of a British electronics expert. I intend to manufacture and market "boludometros" that consist of a gauge with a needle and the numbers 1 to 5, a dial hidden underneath and a buzzer. The operator secretly moves the needle by turning the dial and that determines the quantity of "boludo" a person has. When that is determined the operator pushes the button also underneath to sound the buzzer. A couple of years ago I demonstrated my "boludometro" at the HUBB meeting at Viedma, Argentina.

I went on to explain that there are so many "boludos" in Buenos Aires that my "boludometro" keeps breaking so we came here to test it. This brought laughter from the group, so much so that one guy dropped his bike.

Soon I was asking if I anyone would volunteer for a "boludometro" check. everyone was saying check him , check him he is a "boludo." I checked the guy and confirmed to the group that yes, indeed the guy was a "boludo." these guys were cracking up with laughter and began yelling check me, check me. I checked everyone and then I walked over to the leader, still trying to figure out why he couldn't open my saddlebag, I asked "Can I check you" he glared at me and said "You think I am a Boludo? No, No, of course not I said, I am just checking my "boludometro." I quickly sounded the buzzer and verified to the group no he is not a Boludo, that established, he smiled.

Elisa was taking this all in, centered herself in front of the gang... and told the them in no uncertain terms that I had to go find some fire wood because she was going to cook dinner. After all the laughter and Elisa's commanding style, the boys mounted up, a few pitched their empty beer bottles into the bush. and rode off toward the road.

Hope this helps and you might find cultural centric "artifacts" from the Sahara or where ever you ride, that might provide common ground between you and those who mean to do you harm. I have noted several good suggestions on this thread already. Perhaps a copy of the Koran at hand might work.

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

Pepper spray would be something I'd carry if I thought I was at risk of being attacked by animals when camping. I'm thinking remote Canada / Russia.

If you're taking this huge torch, you'll only have it to hand at night anyway. So instead of braining someone with it up close, blind them with the beam further away. You can also do that with your considerably smaller, lighter, and genuinely useful LED headtorch. So leave the 5Kg torch at home.

My bike has a 32mm rear axle, which is why I carry one of these:
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/wrench-1.jpg

Even if you don't have a stupidly huge rear axle, I would recommend anyone with aluminium panniers to carry such an object for when 'pannier realignment' is in order after a crash. I would think it's a pretty strong visual deterrent too.

edit: to spell it out don't take special 'weapons' with you, just use what you carry if you think you need to - which unless it's all gone very wrong, you won't.

KTM, I know what you mean about the rear wheel thingy. When I got my Enfield I had to buy a 24mm flat ring spanner to get the wheel off to fit a new tyre. It was only later when I had to adjust the chain I discovered I also needed a 30mm ring spanner for the other end :( The weight of my toolkit has more than doubled since the changeover to Enfield from BMW. Every fastener seems to be a different size. Not only that but they also use the 'unusual sizes' of metric such as 14 and 18mm which means most metric spanner sets are missing the sizes needed.

A long time ago I did some training with people who ought to know about shooting people, hitting them on the head and so forth. One of the big points they stressed time and time again (when they weren't on about shiney boots) was that if you decided to shoot or stab someone you should be as certain as possible that they wouldn't get up and try to kill you shortly afterwards. All the suggestions about whacking people with Maglites and adjustable spanners seem to forget the possible outcomes that involve matey getting hacked off that you bruised his arm and cutting your head off, or the paperwork and first hand experience of Midnight Express type conditions if the *** turns out to have a thin skull.

I'd go for the camp out of sight, see who's about, give them what they want, run away options and would only even think about the bear spray in places where there are bears.

Andy

I hope any inexperienced overlanders are not put off travelling to Morocco after reading the posts in this thread in the same way some thought we needed big GS BMW's, back-up 4x4's, jungle and anti kidnap training not so long back. It just comes down to 'trusting your instincts' here as in any other place you go, and this applies to home as much as abroad.
I would not fancy walking day or night through Deptford/New Cross/Bermondsey(Millwall areas) in a Crystal Palace shirt!
:oops2:

Dave Ede is quite right - the thuggish pond life which haunts Saaf London is much more dangerous than Morocco, which has a far lower crime rate.

Now I'm really worried. My son's at uni in New Cross. Should I send him the torch or the spanner?

No, just drugs and more beer..........:thumbup1:

Well I live in Deptford if he needs to borrow a 32mm wrench :)

Hi Dave
I'm currently in Morocco. Please send drugs and beer. The cheep bottle of Morrisons Irish Whiskey I bought in Gibraltar tastes like nun's p*ss. Being a chicken, I'm in a hotel tonight, so yet again, no chance of pretending to do Rambo impressions.

(Speaking as a bike traveller, not a Mod) to all those pretend "hard cases" buying up army surplus spanners/ maglites/ pepper spray etc., before you think about using them on the local population, consider that the locals might outnumber you and are quite likely to reciprocate your affection. :frown:

I'm with the common sense brigade. If you have to wild camp, size up the environment and engage your brain.

Tomorrow i'm selling my clapped out Transalp and will buy a "random other brand"/camera crew/survival training before riding another mile. It's dangerous out there.
Chris
PS. Also send a couple of spare ring antenna...

PPS. Merry Christmas from Marrakesh

Exactly, is what I was trying to say in my original post.
As an aside, two members of a Cornish WI were killed a couple days ago returning from a visit to see Xmas lights. Shit happens, and deploying weapons is more likely to make any situation worse. If you can defuse a situation to create a better atmosphere that is the best solution as posted previously. To do that however you will need language skills somewhat in excess of mine, although I can get by in French.

No thread on this site is complete without a little gratuitous bmw bashing, so I'm glad we've checked that box.

It's not Christmas for me unless I hear some GS bashing..... :thumbup1:




Just for the record, i'm not encouraging people to carry buy big maglites and start bashing up people.

Like said, 99.9999% of "dodgy looking" people will be the friendliest, helpful people you will ever meet on the road. (Dont you just love made up statistics)

It's just a uselful bit of camp kit that can be picked up to show you can defend yourself if nesessary. Hardly the same league as a Rambo knife with blood grooves and grenades in the handle lol.

Not talking specifially about Morrocco, just anywhere in the world where you could be victimised or mugged.

This is very grey area with a bazillion variables so there's never going to be right or wrong answer.

I'm much more likely to give a wink and a smile to someone approaching me than a smash in the kidney with a maglite and I think that's true of even the hard faced axe wielding paranoid traveller on this forum.

HO HO HO !!

Hello Motoreiter
My comment wasn't meant to insult that hallowed Bavarian brand that so many dedicated affecianados swear by.

I'm sure you recall there were a couple of chaps (one actor and his mate/son of a famous director: they were on the TV once or twice recently ) who used this brand and in some peoples opinion went OTT with respect to their preparation and backup. Their prep included anti-terror/kidnap training. Hence my tongue in cheek comment in reference to defending oneself with solid objects/compressed gas.

I wholeheartedly, out the bottom of my ring-antenna, apologise for casting any doubt on the utter wonderfullness of that superior German marque. If you were to ever reread my above post, please substitute "GS" with "random other brand".

So, wo ist jetzt mein Werkzeug?
So Sorry Chris

Defensive savagery!
 

I've always thought a small, portable sound device playing "Achey Breaky Heart" at 130 dB would be the ultimate (and most cruel) defensive weapon.

That is the dumbest damn thing I have ever heard! So how long would my penis have to be before your theorem would not hold true? Do you measure limp or erect? I need to see if I am compensating or just like guns.

You have traded your self reliance and freedom for a white flag. How pathetic. Let the government take care of you huh? This is the kind of thinking that took the greatest country in the world down to one that is just surviving. How sad.

"Live Free or Die" That is exactly why we crossed the pond 300 years ago.

But that does NOT mean that I think that pulling a gun at the first sign of trouble is the best solution. Many of you have the right idea. I would only use a gun to protect my family from death or injury. Not to prevent my food or clothes from being stolen. I have more respect for human life than material goods.

just my 2 Cents worth.....

Oh yea. I guess having the big BMW is pure compensation too. Maybe I should run and hide. :blushing:

self defense
 

i always carry a telescopic baton. i have never had to use it on a bike trip, but i have used it twice on the job (law enforcement). the biggest concern in using it on the job is making sure no bones get broken. might not be a concern in north africa.

I remember that they were given a set of tools but did not learn how to use them, but they did get trained how to run in a zig-zag pattern if they were being shot at.:scared:

This one may be an escapee from Jo Momma....:scooter:

First, no apologies necessary, you are simply one of many on this site who seem to find it entertaining/amusing/ego-boosting to bash BMWs and their riders. I will say, however, that where I come from apologies worded in such a manner are worse than no apology...it must be a British thing?

Second, regarding those actors--given that they are relatively high-profile, that they would be considered fabuously wealthy in many of the areas that they rode through, and that their movements were generally reported in the local media, their risk profile was totally different from most people on this site, and I think it would have been rather foolish of them not to take any precautions whatsover. Whatever "training" they took probably didn't have much value, but for all we know it was a requirement for some kind of insurance policy, sponsorship, etc.

Spot on, IMO. On both counts...

And I would say it is a British thing, if you want to apologise without apologising... That is how I woud have taken it....

You crossed the pond 300 years ago ?? I love how some North Americans talk as if they did things themselves. As if you personally decided 300 years ago that you wanted a better life and hopped on a ship yourself.

And I have to find it hilariously ironic that someone from the US can say we gave up our freedom. The US is the most paranoid "locked down" country in the whole world. I know this through personal experience as do many travellers.

Anyway I won't get any further into this. I have some great US friends and would hate to offend them and know that the majority are wonderful people. Gun owning or not.

The gun thing is a personal opionion and a huge box of frogs. Polish your weapon all night long my friend. Measure it while your at it.

And FYI, my goverment doesnt take care of me, It's the other way round. Luckily I have to freedom to come and go as I chose as well as my other European neighbours. I might pop over to Spain, Germany or France next week;

I know they wont be taking my fingerprints, retinal eye scans, mothers bra measurments and measuring my nose for potential terrorist bogies nor would our guys be asking them if they came here.

Sounds pretty free to me !!

Anyway.... Talley ho and toodle pip all the way old chap !! What what ! :mchappy:

Ride safe mate !

:thumbup1:

I think the "musicians" (a very loose description) in the Jemaa el Fna in Marrakesh yesterday must have been expecting an imminent attack, considering the quality and volume of their defences. They make the dodgy bongo drummers of Salvador de Bahia sound positively musical/defenceless.

I'm off to listen to some Leonard Cohen.
Chris

OK so we've touched on guns, jingoism, Ewan and Charley and BMWs .
What's next ?

You have my deepest sympathy .:sleeping:

Listening now on MP3 player in internet cafe in Essaouira. I'm just on a line from Chelsea Hotel No.2 "Giving me head on the unmade bed/ While the Transalp waits in the street..." So you can add blow jobs to the list:offtopic::funmeteryes::innocent:

great thread
 

This has been a great Christmas thread, and all started by skinny Tim and his pot of pepper. Thank you Tim.

Graham

"I need to see if I am compensating or just like guns."

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard! Surely there should be an AND in there, not an OR?

And by posting how big ones bike is, and not only what 4*4, but also how you needed to make it even bigger and by how much, one would think the answer is obvious!

Noones mentioned the weather yet. Turned out nice again.


;)

Inflammatory remarks removed.

I let your original comments be as I did not want to give credence to them.

you is me
 

lol gotta love the American we did this attitude, by we you actually mean you as it was us who came there then became you. so infact there was no we kicked you out as we kicked ourselves out with alot of the help from ourselves and other EU nations who also happen to be you.

But having some american friends I do understand why some feel the need to carry firearms or at least have them for home protection. In one of my friends states there has been more police officers killed in line of duty by scum with firearms than in the whole of the Uk by any means in the last 5 years. They all think Im nuts for not locking my doors at night, but I am of the opinion if they are gonna enter your house they will do so and if they can get past my evil chinese crested dog, not break their necks falling over my cats and find any of my electrical appliances remote controls then they are doing better than me.

oldbmw
 

Im just in my thirties and I can remember the days of walking into the nearest city with a rifle to get it fixed or going to the nearest pub with farmers and gamekeepers with shotguns over the shoulder, so yes things have changed why because someone walked into a school and killed lots of folk and it has not happened since they introduced the laws.
I always had a decent sized locknife/hoofpick in my pocket as I owned horses, and when I was a chef I always had a knife set with me but I sure as hell would be nervous these days even walking into a club with steel toe caps on.
The clampdown on guns in the Uk worked to some degree many small time cons still would not even think about carrying a shooter as its way too much time when caught but they all carry knifes ect as the law isnt getting tough on that despite what the government says.

So I think the camping in the desert question is pointless but should really be how do you survive going anywhere as lets face it every country has it problems.

We are pretty much in agreement on most things however.

How often did it happen before they changed the gun laws? None. not once in a hundred years did anyone murder a load of kids until that single lunatic let loose. On that basis if a car driver ran over a number of pedestrians we should all have our cars confiscated to prevent it from happening again. Punish the entire population for one idiots wrongdoing. Does not seem quite right to me.
Truth is it is part of a long, ongoing ( since the russian revolution) process worked, excuse by excuse to disarm the peasants. Since 9/11 we have lost Habeus corpus enshrined in the Magna Carta. as is the presumption of innocence until proven guilty and the right to trial by 12 man jury. 900 years of justice and most of my reasons to be proud to be British dumped down the toilet.

I dare say that Ray Mears' bushcraft knife could be construed as an offensive weapon in modern Britain these days .

There will always be nutters who will kill innocent people and they will use whatever means they have at their disposal .

It could be argued that; if there were armed responsible citizens in Hungerford when Michael Ryan went on his rampage ,he could have been stopped before he killed so many .
Similar events have happened in just about every country in the world .
You cannot legislate against firearms and expect the problem to go away .Dunblane came after Hungerford and it's sad to say another tragedy will follow sooner or later.

It is a shame that ill-thought out legislation has been passed making the lives of legitimate sportsmen and women all the more difficult ,and yet every weekend there are many thousands of enthusiasts who take part in shooting sports in the UK and never harm anybody.
So what was actually achieved?

Gun crime has ,apparently ,doubled in the last decade .

Illegal firearms will still be available to those who are determined to get hold of them .
Bombs ,which have the potential to do much more damage, can be made from agricultural fertiliser and diesel .Hence every farmer is a potential bomb maker ,yet as far as I know there have been no new laws regarding fertiliser purchase and storage -[organic farmers might be let off the hook here ].



Using Ted's [unoriginal] hypothesis about penis size and gun ownership ,I will leave my rifle at home next time I go out into the woods ,for I feel that I am adequately equiped to defend myself from any Grizzly bears I might encounter .

Sweet a political flame fest! I AM SO IN!

But most of the guns I have had came from the old USSR, China, and the no gun having EU. Odd you can not have them but see no wrong in proffiting from them. And before that the people that came here 300 years ago (and even before that) where from Europe. They brought the "gun culture" to the USA (or that what it is called now). Before that there was no guns here. The guns were used "resettle the indigenous people", funny but the avatar movie was about the same.
Now as far warmongers go if I am right it was the now EU that started both world wars. Killing millions now that is good waring not gust killing like when you settle an continent or two. You know going up a people that are armed with rocks and sticks.

The whole you is me thing cuts both ways, we are heartless warmongering killers ran by even worst heartless warmongering killers. In my state we have 6 or 7 police officers killed in December alone. Now that is not a very mary christmas thought.
So do not take a gun with you. No matter how big it makes your junk look.

Don't confuse the UK with the EU: gun-ownership is quite legal in a number of EU countries: it's the carrying of concealed weapons that is more frowned upon and legal gun acquirement is tight in most place, and gun ownership is typically a target shooting thing, asi understand it...This I have no problem with.

I have to ask then, who started the most recent world war, even if it has not yet been given that name?

As opposed to only killing a few hundred thousand. I'm glad to hear that there is a good kind of war... I was worried for a while that they were all pretty horrendous events that really only benefitted banking institutions and big industrialists.

Not to mention that whilst I don't really agree with Ted's poetic analogy, when did he make a reference to the USA? And yet two posts rebuffing his comparison having been citing this and that the US....Why?! This thread was about the Sahara!!!

With that in mind, are we not drifting ever so slightly away from the initial question?

Exactly Warthog.
All I did in my first post was to say even though I legally hold guns, I would not take one anywhere with me on a camping trip. Somehow the mention of the word 'gun' Has again triggered paranoia.
I use a rifle for hunting and vermin control. My pistol is used for target practice only as the possibility of wounding an animal is too high with a pistol. They are all tools, same as the machete, axe, chainsaw,tractor and other contraptions that can be found on a farm.

Oh we want to go back to the initial question? dam there went flame fest. bugger.
I did not derail this thread. Most posts now have gone from what you can do in the Sahara to keep your self safe, to guns, the USA, and of all things the size of a mans junk. I was thinking in the fog of drink that it was open to flaming any one. Ted started it then the 300 years ago
I went to kill people so i needs me a gun! thing. This thread went down long before my last post.
The EU not having guns is my bad. Many states in the EU do not alow there people to have guns. As do many states in North America. but as people where throwing all of them under the bus so to speak I did the same. (my guns where German and UK so there the bad ones)
Who started the most recent world war? The same people that start all wars, rich old bastards that do not have to fight. but the one that started this last batch did get drunk and shot his friend the head.
It is better to kill less people than more.
It was the WE vs. YOU thing that got me going. The WE are clean peace loving BMW is grate vs. YOU gun lover hate filled people BMW is bad. (I had to BMW it is gust to funny)

On the plus side we may only lose only 5 cops seems the news got it wrong and the LEOs may make it. :D

So it a flame or how to keep safe? If it how stay safe we need a mod clean up the thread.

Ah Yes! You can try the roof of the Hotel des Remparts for that. And no need to leave the Transalp in the street - you can push the bike inside that hotel. The beds are certainly unmade.

Please take DLBiten there for a bit of fun but no L.Cohen please.

Have you no ear for Gnaoua music on Jemaa el Fna? This liking for L. Cohen's funeral music has done so much damage.....:palm::eek3:

An unusually challenging post....:scooter:

Hey all..

I do apologise for bringing the whole gun thing into this....It wasn't my intention to start a UK vs US anti gun thread..... We are all from the same mould and I have no anti American feelings whatsoever !

My "I own a gun = small penis" comment was posted after coming back from a rather merry night out in the pub and not thought out at all. Just like half of my very strange alcohol fueled Ebay purchases (Childs wheelchair, 99p anyone ?)

:oops2:

I don't think owning a gun as a tool is a bad thing at all.. Shooting rabbits, defending yourself against bears in the wilds and hunting for survival are things I will never have a gripe with and I apologise for not stating that in my post. I have shot rabbits myself as well as other small "pest" game.

For the rest, I stand by my original comment ! Handguns in the top draw for "home security" or a rack full of widow makers above the mantle makes me automatically thing "LOSER" !! I just cant see the necessity for it all.

Apologies to the rest once more.

We seem to have gone off on a tangent in the last 14 posts...

Gun arguments apart, it's an interesting set of responses ranging from
- hide the camp, don't show lights
- better to live another day and let them take things
- pepper spray is illegal in the UK
- learn martial arts
- hit them with something big and heavy

Only Caminando seemed to share my sense of frustration of watching people rob and stand idly by.

Yeah, sorry Tim.... Christmas boredom and winter blues must be setting it to us all !!

I think you're just best doing what you feel comfortable with ! I think you'l be just fine....

I think everyone would feel frustrated and want to stop the theives, but it comes down to is one's GPS, stove, camera or pride worth getting hurt over or worse still killed over....

It is easy to say we would act one way or another, and to get angry imagining oneself in that situation; feeling the outrage of such an intrusion. However, when it comes down to it, I suspect that most woud follow the path of least resistance and greatest safety.

Make a mental not of what they look like, names if you can, and get to the local authorities: it may be they are well known and your stuff retrieved...

Nice sumation Tim.

The martial arts thing...I really don't think it will do much good. No matter how big and bad ass you think you are, there is always someone else that can stomp you without breaking a sweat.

I've seen this a number of times in the military. A young soldier goes through the most basic of training, leaves feeling like a bad ass, acts aggressive towards the wrong person. Then gets his skull broke by a brawler.

Also, I don't get the hesitation to defend your property from a thief. 'He's less fortunate and I just can't see hurting a person over property that I can just rebuy'. WTF? It's the principle. Doesn't matter if it's a cup of coffee, stealing is stealing and should be treated as such.

Defense
 

Just a quick note on weapons to look after yourselves, you dont need anything special, just look at what you are carrying with your personal kit, tent poles the hot water in the stove etc. Forget martial arts, if any take up Judo but this can take years to lean to be fluent which is what you need to be.
On a personal note if anyone turn up in the middle of knowhere in the dark i would expect the worse if they came with steath and i would not hesitate to put a lifetime of close interpersonel skills to use esp if my partner is with me.
Lokk like you own the town with confidence.
Thefastone

I do understand your sense of frustration. It is just that in a wrong situation there isn't a right response to make it good again. Most either make it worse or potentially worse.

YouTube - Motorcycle awareness: A day out in Devon

One more dimension to add to the debate:

What if you are travelling with a female companion (or indeed if you're a female travelling alone)?


Most people have expressed the belief that it's not worth starting a fight or risking killing somebody over mere possessions. But 'local lads up to no good' might have other things on their mind upon finding one their victims is female.


I did a lot of wild camping on a trip to Mongolia this year. The only country I think posed a real risk of me being attacked/robbed was Kazakhstan, and only after riding through once (wild camping all the way) I heard a lot of second hand scare stories of cyclists and motorcyclists being attacked. This made me a lot more edgy when heading through the country again and camping, but this time I had a girl with me as a pillion. The last night camping when I was particularly paranoid due to an earlier fear someone might have been following us, I thought fully for the first time about what might happen if someone did turn up in the middle of the night.

Car pulls up. Four drunken guys are in it. There's probably only one outcome and it's me getting a harsh beating, maybe stabbed, and her getting raped.


We carried on camping wild for the rest of the trip in Russia and Mongolia, however I felt very safe in those countries. I wouldn't hesitate to camp wild again in Kazakhstan or anywhere else with alcoholic and aggressive locals, on my own or with male companions. But I would have to think long and hard about camping with a female companion in such a place again, and I suspect I would not do it. I could live with losing some property or getting beaten up, but I'm not sure I could cope with being responsible for getting a woman raped.

And yes I am aware that women are capable of making their own choices and being responsible for them. But in this situation I would feel responsible and therefore I wouldn't want to do it. This is particularly true of the experience I'm reffering to as the whole wild camping adventuring mallarky was 'my world' that I'd brought the girl in question in to.

Like I said this fear was only in one country where I'd had first hand experience of the unprevoked aggression of locals, and of the widespread alcholism and problems arising from it. And heard several very relevant stories of travellers being attacked whilst camping.

Defense
 

I agree with you on the female thing, i work hard and i am not the riches man around. I dont agree with the poor country folk thing. Stealing is stealing and i will protect my property at any level they want to escalate to esp if i have have female company with me. I have friends in S. Africa whom have had to deal with intruders in their own home by robbers they played it cool but on finding 2 teenage girls in the house it changed to something else with a very unfortuate outcome.

There are lots of things you can do, have give aways, hide docs and sims etc away from the camp but make it look plausable. But if it looks like getting violent and this is my thoughts only, get in hard put them down proper and get the hell out of there if possible over the border or district.

Thefastone

One thing I also would like to add.

A lot of the discussion has centered around the option of being able to let the would be robbers 'get on with it' whilst standing by. I rather suspect that most people who might try and rob a motorcyclist camped up at night, are going to expect that person to try and defend their things and therefore going to act in a way that won't give them chance. IE They're going to hit first.

Just as you risk seriously injuring or even killing a camp intruder, they also risk doing the same to you, unintentionally or otherwise. I would rather the former than the latter. You may have to live with the consequences, but at least you'll live.


It seems to me that the best suggestion in this thread is from Tim himself: Cable ties. If you did get attacked and robbed whilst camped, but successfully defended yourself, then immobilising the attacker so you can escape and maybe even get across a border would be at the top of my priorities.
Don't some/most specialist police and military outfits use strong cable ties to secure the hands of captured terrorist suspects etc?

yes cable ties would work, even teh thinner ones from garden centres, but if you have ever tried to cuff someone who doesnt want to be cuffed by yourself you will know that you have bugger all chance of getting cable ties on unless they are really out of it.

And again you might as well just kill them as putting restraints on someone in a remote part of any country is probably a death sentance unless you tell someone where to find them.

I guess there isnt really an answer to the ops question as every traveller has different abilities or thoughts on what self defence is and very few situations are the same.

So I still stand by the best form of protection is to use common sense and "dont be there" in the first place. And lets face it the odds are you are more likley to wake up in hospital on a friday night going out in any UK city than being attacked camping wild somewhere in Africa, but just with less sand in your underpants.

I'm sorry, I still think the cable ties are a really bad idea...successfully defending yourself and immobilizing the attacker enough to zip tie their arms are two completely different things. The fact that "specialist police and military outfits" use them is neither here nor there, because such units are (a) armed; and (b) trained units, and not lone, untrained, unarmed individuals. How can anyone really think this is a good idea?

And I presume you are only proposing to zip-tie arms and not legs; leaving someone tied hand and foot in the desert in a remote campsite could well be a death sentence. I have no problem with giving thieves a good thrashing, but this is something else altogether...

A last quick note as this is just going around and around, this is from the hourses mouth and not hearsay, in remote parts of the world a GS1200A is something from mars and the person riding it has untold wealth and this make them a potental kidnap.

If you are ever in this situation or being lead off somewhere for further violation agianst your will, the time to act is in the first instance as the longer you leave it the more you become under their control. Always act at once before they can control the situation, make noise shout fire, move around make it difficult for them to control the situation.

But back in the real world and not the movies, if this was happening all to often we would never go out of our doors.

All have a great newyear and be safe.

Thefastone

I have two types of cable ties permanently mounted to the frame of my bike
- 15 x standard sort (5mm wide by 38mm long)
- 6 x extremely heavy duty (13mm wide by 56mm long)

The heavy duty ones would probably support a broken subframe.

I'm pretty certain the standard ties would hold someone. You can of course join ties to increase length, you could also quickly work out a 'hobbling' mechanism so the would-be thieves could slowly depart. Two guys could become a three-legged race team. :)

I think Thefastone is right about acting early rather than letting things develop. I can't see me using a knife, blunt instruments are also potentially lethal and it's literally decades since I did Judo.

This is why I feel if I was ever in need of protection the pepper spray idea is still the best to carry as it's non-lethal, non-permanent, can be deployed without warning, and can continue to be used as a threat whilst you secure the would-be thieves.

Tim