The end of chain lubing?
 

From a Regina Chain (Italy) press Release
(and BMW also announced the chain will be used on new BMW's - see below)

"Regina presents the innovative and revolutionary Z-Ring chain High Performance Endurance (HPE) which eliminates the periodic re-lubrication that motorcycle riders must perform every 1,000 km. Extensive lab and street testing demonstrate that the HPE chain has a useful life that is at least equivalent, if not greater, than a traditional regularly re-lubricated Z-Ring chain. The hydrogen-free Tetrahedral Amorphous Carbon (ta-C) coating, currently considered as the most advanced among DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) coatings, is applied on the surface of the bushings and rollers of the HPE chain. The ta-C coating reduces energy dissipation and increases efficiency in the secondary transmission, combining the very high hardness of the coated surface with a low coefficient of friction. The elimination of chain cleaning and lubricant spatter during operation minimizes environmental impact. The innovative ta-C coating process was developed through intense R&D activity of Regina engineers and is entirely carried out in our Cernusco Lombardone (LC) plant in Italy."


“The elimination of the periodic re-lubrication and the greater efficiency of the transmission raise the HPE chain to an extremely advanced technological level compared to traditional sealed chains, unthinkable until today and unparalleled on the market;” said Paolo Garbagnati, CEO of Regina. “We would like to thank all the women and the men who made the achievement of this important goal possible, including all the passionate riders, who, confidentially and professionally, contributed to the project with many extensive test rides.”
"HPE chain transmission does not need coated front and rear sprockets. The HPE chain will be available on the aftermarket starting January 2021"


From BMW:

"Lubricating your chain was yesterday. Maintenance-free like the shaft drive for the first time.

Munich. For more than 90 years, the maintenance-free, environmentally friendly and comfortable shaft drive has been one of BMW Motorrad's immovable technical cornerstones. With the M Endurance chain, BMW Motorrad now offers a maintenance-free chain with comparable characteristics for the first time.

Like previous X-ring chains, the M Endurance chain has a resident permanent lubricant filling between the rollers and pins, enclosed by X-rings. What is completely new, however, is that the previously necessary additional lubricant addition for the rollers and thus the familiar "chain lubrication" is no longer necessary, nor is any re-tensioning required from time to time due to the usual wear.

This enormous gain in comfort was made possible by using a new coating material for the rollers: tetrahedrally amorphous carbon (ta-C), also known as industrial diamond. This coating is characterized by extreme hardness and resistance and in this respect it is placed between the well-known DLC coating (Diamond Like Carbon) and pure diamond. In contrast to the metal surfaces used so far, the coating with the ta-C industrial diamond does not wear off. At the same time, this type of coating also offers a drastically reduced friction coefficient.

Thanks to excellent dry lubrication properties and the elimination of wear, the tetrahedral amorphous carbon coated rollers of the M Endurance chain offer maintenance comfort equivalent to that of a shaft drive motorcycle. This includes all the cleaning work that is unavoidable with a conventional chain due to splashed lubricant. Accordingly, the M Endurance chain also offers maximum environmental friendliness.

The M Endurance chain in 525 pitch is now available initially for the two 4-cylinder models BMW S 1000 RR and S 1000 XR. The M Endurance chain is available as accessory or directly from the factory as an option. Further BMW Motorrad models are being prepared for this feature."

--------------------

So, what do you think? What about the lack of lube where the rollers hit the sprockets - conventional wisdom is that oil there reduces shock and therefor wear? Will this be harder on sprockets? Should you lube a little anyway? Is this the end of shaft drives?

If these chains prove to be as good as Regina claim it can only be a step foreward, I wonder if they have worked with coated sprockets as well and whether that improve life expectancy and efficiency even more.

I'm content to wait and see. For one thing, I seldom lubricate my chains anymore--I clean them crudely (WD40), then let them suffer. They still last a long time. For another, the new chain reportedly costs US$300+. That's going to buy me a lot of DID x-ring chains, with change leftover for a sixpack of WD40.

If I find one under the Christmas tree, I'll install it.

Mark

Depends on how much it costs - but I can certainly see it being used on new bikes from the factory. "Come back to the dealer and replace with an OEM chain that does not require lubrication, unlike all those third-party chains!" Of course, eventually this will be cheap and available in the aftermarket everywhere.

Natural progression of engineering and materials science. Wonderful.

I don't think it will quite replace shaft drives, because it's still not completely maintenance-free - you still have to check and adjust tension, which is a much more scary process for non-technical bike owners than squirting some spray on the chain...

Looks interesting as an advance and the marketing certainly ramps up the expectation to, well, as fever pitchy as bike chain marketing gets - I've seen it in a few other places as well. If it works (or works better than the current offerings) then great but I remain to be convinced it'll do what the advertising claims - no lubing. Maybe under certain limited circumstances - summer sun sports bike doing limited mileage to and from Starbucks and traded in every couple of years - for example but I await the judgement of the first person to use it RTW.

Having said that there's no doubt bike chain tech has improved over the decades. The stuff around when I first started was terrible - we wore out a chain in a bit over 4k touring miles - on a 250 - despite daily oiling. Every second article in the magazines was about chain care - anyone remember 'Linklyfe' (a kind of grease bath where you took your chain off and boiled it up in the stuff). Thankfully O rings and X rings and the other upgrades have got rid of all that mess. If Z rings move it on again then I'm all for that but I guess it's going to be 'premium product, premium price' for a while until the hype dies down.

Mechanical minutiae to keep the forums buzzing over the winter and sell a few unnecessary parts to the early adopters.

I'm with Mark, current chains need a wipe down once in a while and get replaced every few tyres, just a known running cost. A simple payback calculation to me, if it costs twice as much but lasts three times longer OK, but then will I just be handing over what I spent to the next owner as I rarely keep a bike more that 30000 miles. If it has to be dealer fitted that's against it.

The faffers with their Scot oil, cans of teflon spray, lazers, plumb bob monkey things and bowstring tight chains will still faff. What your mother told you will still apply, keeping playing with it and it'll fall off.

Andy

I'm another who will be happy to let others try it out before I put my own money there. Modern X-ring chains are pretty damn good and don't require copious amounts of lube.... for the money I can live with doing a spray once a week, and if it helps sprocket life that's a plus.

You don't have one? I'm amazed your bike runs. Wouldn't be without mine :rofl:

:rofl:

https://youtu.be/3COrt4XMbfU

The 20 quid alternative to using your thumb (or just waiting until the throttle only results in a hammering noise and not much go)

Andy

The idea is flawed ! no lubrication on front or rear sprocket. recently sold crf1000 with 33,000 miles and only adjusted chain once . I used a small tube and let this drip on to front sprocket . This works even better on a small 250 as it keeps it well oiled !!:scooter:

Weren't belt drives supposed to address this issue?

I'll have to ponder before casting a vote, but it does seem likely that sprocket wear will continue to be a problem, meaning the same coating on those too for this to be worthwhile.

I'd also add that being a scottoil faffer has always addressed the lubing issue for me, whilst also protecting the sprockets. They do make chain adjustment almost redundant.

I think the only area this will have a discernible difference (if you're a consistent rider) is fuel consumption, assuming their claims of lower friction are true, but even then the savings will be cents per fill-up if I have to guess.

I like innovation so, in this respect, I'm not against the idea, but I am very aware of the line where marketing gets hyperbolic in its claims. And blanket statements like "chain lube is dead" makes me raise an eyebrow or three....


Overall, I think that, whilst the chain's qualities are no doubt based in fact, the main selling point is peace of mind for the owner. A sense that they need not bother with the chain anymore and the dealership technicians can worry about tension and sprockets at the 4000km services.

A lifetime chain?

You bet! If it works and it's not grossly overpriced, I'll use one and happily so.

I'm keep an eye on this.

Now, another 10,000 miles on a good rear tire? I'd like to see that too.

..................shu

Will it rust/corrode?

If I put such a chain on my bike, on long trips I will bring some snake oil, just in case.....:innocent:

I'm familiar with DLC. (Diamond like coating).

BMW put it on the cams of their S1000R series bikes. They can make the cams much lighter that way.

The coating fails all the time and destroys the top-ends.

So that's the DLC on Cam shafts in their top of the range sports bikes. Using the best factory processes.

I can't see the DLC on a chain being applied so well or of the same quality.

The marketing blurb looks like the same that you see on Diamond tipped Drill bits. Those that promise so much for £10 and they're all blunt within 30 seconds.

carnt beat good old oil on a chain !:scooter:

My guess is someone bought the rights to use the method. It turned out not to work so well on the cam shafts and now they're looking for other ways to have some return on that investment. It might work on chains, who knows?


But I'll just keep pushing the primer bulb once in a while on my home made chain oiler system, thank you very much.

modern o-rings chains are internally lubricated so no need to extra lub aside from protecting chain from rust in wet conditions if stationary.

Almost never lub my dirt bikes and chain is fine and last long,
adventure bikes only after rain or wash.

I lough at those ideas people buy into like e.g. automatic chain lubricators.
They do more damage to the chain actually as too much lub and dirt, sand etc is sticking to chain wears it out.

But hey, business myst go on LOL

I use chainsaw oil as it is very effective at cleaning the chain, not so much for actual lubrication.

I used DID-X-ring chains which I found excellent- they do indeed have internal lubrification and the 'X' principle is that the tiny amount of lube is kept inside as the 'X' forms the 4 sealed contact points. However this does not reduce the friction between the chain links and sprokets and this is where some oil- there many to chose from- reduce wear and tear.
I also had fitted a vacuum-driven Scott-oiler which deposited a small amount of oil each time the throttle is closed and which has served me well in all sorts of terrain- and yes, I did turn it off and cleaned the chain before venturing into sand.

How patronising and dismissive of you 'mister' tremens to read that you 'lough' or rather 'laugh' at so many of us whom you don't know and who may actually know better- A response such as yours is not in keeping with the general spirit of exchanging practical and truthful informat ion on the Hubb without attempting to ridicule others- No bun fight- just factual. doh: very disappointing.

Guess who just got struck off my Xmas card list...:innocent:

so no lube mr tremens !
Not only does oil on your chain keep it in much better condition , but also makes a smoother and more economical and quieter ....... fact after a lot of miles on bikes !!?c?

How many miles do people ride in a year Too all
 

How many miles do you ride in a year ?:scooter:

Laugh all you like but that’s prime nonsense.

I have a comfortable quarter million miles of riding under my belt on various bikes: all them chain driven bar 2.

I’ve used those laughable automatic oilers you mentioned.

The times I have the chain has been clean when it would have been dirty and remained well-tensioned long after normally being slack.

So I don’t know which oilers you’re thinking about but it’s none of the ones I have had.

So what's the payback period?

Total up the cost of the oiler, oil, fitting if not DIY then spread the cost over the chains saved, any spray lube not used.

My calculation based on a vacuum driven Scot-Oiler spraying used engine oil 20 years ago was 11 chains to be ahead. The POS was leaking, making a mess and dropping to bits after three. Using proprietary oil payback would be negative . Chains have certainly got better since then, I have barely followed oil sprayer development.

I'm sure it varies with types of oiler and bike spec (*) but a £50-£150 component to extend the life of a £60-75 one has to last years in a very hostile environment.

*My 11 year payback was based on an F650, a bike where the Italo-Austrian-Bavarian muppetry moonlighting as engineers specced a chain for a 48HP single Honda use on 21 HP twins.

I find it suspicious no sprayer maker can present data on payback.

There is also the matter of weight and the potential for failure of accessory level items to fail. The Scot-oiler leaking over the back wheel put the bike out of action for the time it took to remove it and clean up. I was lucky it wasn't a work day. I wonder how many people were stranded by cracked carb bodies from idiots tapping for Scot-oiler lines back then? I assume electric can blow fuses.

Why does no bike manufacturer offer one when they could sell you chain oil at £200 a gallon? They have no qualms about selling cooking spray at similar prices when their manuals don't mention it.

Andy

My oil fitting cost me nothing !
A used 20 ml syringe and a bit of plastic tube !
Placed in the right place on the bike !
never replaced a chain on a road bike yet , after 35 years of experiance .
So who is right then ?:scooter::scooter::scooter::scooter:

Oh, mine was so much more expensive!
- €1.0 240ml Plastic bottle
- €0.5 primer bulb
- €1.5 silicon tubing
a bit of work and some tie wraps for mounting

:innocent:

Sounds fair - lets face it, it isn't exactly rocket science - but it is a test of your memory unless you do it at the start of every journey.

I can see you've taken the time to work out a cost-benefit ratio to assess value.

Two aspects I'd add to it: one is the costs of cans of lube not bought, because I think all the longevigy claims I've read have been for chains lubed conventionally.

The second is harder to put a price on: peace of mind and a lack of hassle.

For me the figure is reasonable. I know how to tension a chain but don't particularly relish it as it involves putting an hour aside when all the walking a kilometer to my garage, faffing in the somewhat cramped space, and the walk back.

For my dad, when he still had a bike, that figure was much higher. He avoided chain-driven bikes and when he couldn't: scottoiler!

I believe the issue is more physcological than mechanical.

Do you check the tyre pressures every ride? The manual does tell you to.
Do you inspect spark plugs? That's in there too.
How about removing brake pads to clean the dust out or going round the electrics with contact cleaner? Its beneficial.

The cavemen who set the ball rolling were dealing with totally different technology. I have had a chain snap, an original unsealed one on an Enfield. The other six unmushroomed heads just prove the quality is awful. The replacement had to be unsealed because they still limit themselves by a primary outside the secondary. That was Made in England, so rivets actually peened over, but still went slack every couple of hundred miles and did benefit from removal and soaking in oil. If this was the only technology all the faffing might be necessary and you'd hope someone would adopt the MZ solution or a Honda style shaft (no Bavarian cheese metal splines allowed in my garage after last time).

This is not current technology though. The O-ring chain on my CB500X has been adjusted once, 9000 miles ago when I binned the OE tyres. The dealers mechanic had set it bow string tight as a job creation scheme, but along with crap tyres and a total lack of grease is just one of those jobs you get with a new bike. My CB500F went through one chain in the time I had it. I'd have spent more time fitting an oiler and removing it to sell the bike. I should probably have eeked the original chain out to sale day, but it was a snap decision to sell and the new chain gave the dealer something to talk about.

To me they are consumables and the fact they are metal and mechanical doesn't change that. Run them slack, wipe with an oily rag to keep cosmic stuff happy, forget your Grandad and his tales of people having legs taken off, setting points at the roadside with fag packets, peeing in the tank to get the acetylene lights going etc.

Andy

I’ve ridden shaft bikes for more than 30 years but, through my wife, I have experience of chain bikes over a period of 16 years - 3 bikes, 1 with a Scottoiler fitted from new and 2 without - she now has a shaftie :cool4:

As we all know, everyone is different, with a different lifestyle. But a couple of things I noticed.
1 - The Scottoiler made the chain and sprocket last longer - not a huge amount:
Without = 24K miles
With = 32K miles - TBO it still had some life in it but we were going off on a months holiday so she had it changed.
2 - Peace of mind. If you ride a lot, it’s 1 less thing to worry about (don’t forget everyone is different). When I say a lot, I don’t necessarily mean a lot of miles - a short commute every day, a ride out with the lads at the weekend, a month long summer holiday = an average of 6K miles a year in this case.

So, as always, you cut your cloth to fit bier

Oh BTW, I went to answer the poll but there wasn’t an ‘I’ve no opinion at the moment, I’ll wait and see how it develops’ category bier

I must admit its always amazed me that chains last as long as they do on a bike. I mean where else would you get something that consists of nothing else other than fine tolerance but crudely constructed sliding and rolling components that are expected to work for long periods at high speed in an uncontrolled environment full of abrasive particles and corrosive chemicals without any protection. The exposed valve gear on some vintage motorcycles is the only other area I can think of with similar issues and all of those were soon covered up.

The only advantages chains seem to have are cost (for the manufacturer - keeps the sticker price down) and 'convenience' (ie you can change gearing easily). Considering how the weight of both chains and bikes have grown over the last few decades I'm not sure the 'chains are lighter than shafts' argument has much validity any more. For road bikes I'm also not sure the ability to change gearing easily has much validity either. How many people here have actually changed the gearing on a touring bike (and improved it!)? I've done it once in the last 15yrs - on my 125, where I put on a 1 tooth smaller engine sprocket.

I'm also surprised that the powers that be still allow exposed bits of machinery to flail around in close proximity to body parts. If health and safety are so concerned about things going wrong that they're trying to remove drivers from cars to improve safety (!) how can a 19thC leftover from cotton mills (or wherever chains were first used) whirling round unchecked 2 inches from someone's ankle still be acceptable?

There's no doubt that chain tech has improved over the years - the days of finding the reason my 250 Suzuki stopped on the motorway was because all the teeth had worn off the engine sprocket or that a brand new chain was worn past the point of adjustment in under three weeks have mainly gone. For me though the improvements have not been good enough. Maybe 'diamond coating' might improve things even more but tbh making the whole thing out of diamond wouldn't really fix the problem, that every long trip I go on with a chain driven bike has chain concerns of one form or another sooner or later.

just a little point about gearing .....Most motor bikes( with good old CHAINS ) are geared for 2 people and all there luggage
So if you ride solo , you can often go up one teeth on front sprocket !
And use plenty of old engine oil for long life ! that is the chain !

is there anything wrong with an enclosed chain - all the advantages of the shaft but the efficiency of chain. The last one I can remember seeing was on my brother’s MZ 250 - though that was 35 years ago and it wasn’t new then.

I THINK it's considered just plain ugly - but, could be wrong. I think they're great, seen them on all sorts of bikes, old Japanese bikes, Bultaco Metralla, CZ, Jawa etc. I seem to remember even old British bikes had various versions too. Chain life with them was huge.

What a pity my insightful, amusing and entertaining forensic dissection of the whole chain issue was lost when my iPad battery went flat earlier. :rolleyes2:

Instead I'll just mention that dribbling a line of old engine oil chain fling onto my drive as I depart, confident that my chain is lubed to within an inch of its life, isn't going to be conducive to marital harmony. :rofl:

I agree you can play with sprockets and gearing but I wonder how many people actually do (track bikes and 'exotics' notwithstanding). It seems to be something you do when you're trying to squeeze a few more mph out of your 125 when you're 17/18 (or 67/68 in my case :rofl: ) but give up on when you buy a faster bike.

I can't believe that 60+yr old MZ chain tube tech still seems to be the state of the chain protection art. Their patents must have run out by now so it must be a matter of more than access that stops any other manufacturer taking it on. That nobody has even tried - even among the numerous zombie manufacturers / hipster customisers - speaks volumes for where chains rate in their priorities.

I'm not sure what the average annual bike mileage is these days (I suspect it's fairly low - in the UK at least) but if you're only doing a few thousand fair weather summer miles on a bike then current chain tech is probably good enough to get you from delivery day to trade in. Its only for our type of use that chains - and sprockets - become an issue yet I don't remember seeing any of the overland prep supply companies taking chain protection on board. No aftermarket MZ type solutions or anything like that, only X ring / 'diamond hard' chains and computer controlled (!) chain oilers filled with 'sperm oil' (or was that snake oil - maybe I misremember it) to really glue the dirt on. Sure it all kind of works in an irresistable force meets immovable object sort of way but its come about in the same way that Darwinian evolution works; you rarely get the best result, just something good enough.

Well, when looking at their website (https://www.reginachain.net/business...ional/?lang=de) the diagram shows a 20% longer life. To me it looks like Regina Marketing misinterprets their own diagrams.

Wauschi, I can't see that anywhere for the DLC chains? Am I missing something? They're not mentioned on that page at all, I believe because BMW has an exclusive - for now.

Sorry, my mistake. When trying to do a fact check Google took me to the Z-Ring and I didn't read carefully enough. It turned out to be pretty hard to do a fact check on DLC.

THX for the correction.

Wauschi

Coming back to this thread the note on BMW exclusivity adds to my caution. The Bavarian reputation for bodged engineering to get the showroom result they want is legendary, F650 chain undersized, no grease nipple on the Boxer spline etc. Or, they can go the other way and oversize it to guarantee success. They also love anything weird to talk about in the showroom however pointless and dropped later, variants of front ends, three button indicators, anti-shaft jacking measures etc.

I don't know where the S1000 sits in terms of design, its a bike I'd never look twice at. Its also not a bike thats going to meet salt, sand and the other stuff that wrecks chains on touring bikes. I'm guessing the chains wear when owners use the power at the traffic light GP. Do these owners really care, I bet they get through tyres and have eye-watering fuel and insurance costs ?

I want to see these chains used on a number of designs and applications before I draw a conclusion.

Andy

I know these kind of oilfree chains from wastewater treatment plants used in huge filtering devices. They are also used in the food industry in quite large and heavy maschines since years.

So not a really total new and untested product.
Why shoudn`t that work on motorcycles?

For me just a question of durability and costs.
And if it would suck en route, you can still use a classy chain, I think.

Edit about Regina:
https://youtu.be/MZuLo94lps8

Cobra Nemo 2
 

This little chap was a sponsored gift for my covid cancelled 2020 trip of the TCAT and I can't recommend it highly enough. A firm advocate of chain lubing after I did a trip to Istanbul and back on a 600lmf thumper using a £20 ebay dripper and not once having to tension up. Chains get a torturous life so go high end and lube up....

I have the same chain oliler. Works great. Only downside is that you can't fill it up mid cycle. Have to empty it out before the next refill.

Definitely worth the money, beats spray can lubing. I also suspect that gear oil is better for the chain since it's not as sticky as other chain lubes.

It amazes me how many chain related gadgets are on the market. Not just oilers but tensioners, alignment devices, cleaners, a whole load of stuff. Oilers come in all shapes and forms from oil leaks (including a few bikes with designed in oil leaks to keep the chain lubed) up to stepper motors and programmed electronics.

If you're in the market for an oiler there's stuff ranging from garage scrap (my preferred option :rolleyes2:) up to costing more than the bike and 'powered' by just about any source of energy you can think of - vacuum, air pressure, gravity, electric pumps, a few different sorts of manual + no doubt a few I haven't thought of. And to do what? Dribble oil onto a chain. That really is 1920's technology, along with girder forks, stirrup brakes and exposed valve gear.

We're 'forced' to do something otherwise chains (+sprockets) wear out prematurely and the adventure sector is particularly prone to problems because of a combination of long distances + light weight bikes. It just amazes me that some road safety organisation or other hasn't cottoned on to the fact that we're dropping oil on the public roads almost by design. It's now an MOT failure in the UK to have a car that drips oil yet we're buying gadgets that do it as part of their function.

Seems like the bemer chain does in fact need maintance. Mentioned on the latest episode of highside lowside: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5g-...GWrYy1l8X4xiS_