Hi Ollie

No hyperbole BTW- not from me anyway. I did not say the UK was the worst, so you'll need to rethink that... And I didnt link the UK to Nazi Germany; please read the post accurately - find out about the word "Stasi". I also mentioned several issues where the UK has denied liberties that were hard won; you don't refer to these issues.

Liberty is not a privilege handed out by governments. It doesn't belong to them like some commodity.

I am against complacency in the UK, where people imagine that everything's OK. Don't forget you are a "subject" in the UK, whose Head of State is a monarch; a country without a written Constitution, and whose Upper House is stuffed with unelected geriatrics.

It's lucky we are also at least European citizens.

Come on Ollie - you've got a lot of reading to catch up on!:smiliex:

A bit at a time
 

OK Linz - challenge accepted and Taking Libertiesordered from Amazon, and due to being a prime customer should arrive tomorrow :) I will read it asap.

Of course I will read it in the same vein as anything that could be slanted tomwards one side (great example Michael Moore films- yes I am anti bush/war etc, but one has to to the whole truth, otherwise it is just propoganda !!). Looking forward to it.

Cammie - from my response you may think I hold the opposite view to you, but I am not. I am very much a libertarian, and anti monarchy etc etc. But I am also a commited realistic and optimist. Trust me, I am more anti big brother than most, but if all it does it protect us (really not government spin) then, well maybe I am prepared to accept that vs some other 'nasties' that could be coming our way.

Vive la revolution! But be nice too

PS - I may have dragged this thread a little of the original topic. Sorry :):)

Ollie -let's agree that Cromwell had the right idea!!!!!:thumbup1:

Shhh
 

Cromwell is not a good name for me to mention, being called Oliver and living in Ireland.

Luckily all Irish are well aware that the Cornish are brothers in arms ....!!!!

I don't really see how the secret police of the GDR fit into this argument in any way, the UK isn't East Germany and storing detailed records of people leaving and entering the country for ten years isn't going to turn us into it either!

I have never really understood why people raise this as an issue, yes we are subjects rather than citizens, yes we have no constitution, but how many other countries enjoy more personal freedoms than we do?

Thought experiment
 

OK - heres a thought experiment - imagine saying how bad a country this is to live in to someone from the Nazi era, or Stalin Era, Or current Zimbabwe.

Personally I think you would end up feeling pretty goddam embarrassed for not appreciating what you have got, before complaining.

That’s all I ask people, look at the positives, not the just the negatives.

Linzi's experience with the guy who took his boomerang away, the guy was just a dick, and there’s tonnes of them all round the world! It wasn't a sign that we're about to be woken up during the night to have all our boomerangs confiscated. It was a one off stupid act by a stupid man.

Love and Peace

Ollie

Hi Ollie, yes with immigration officers, on return to UK the staff couldn't have been more different and the coutesy shown me was just right. I see what you mean in keeping it in perspective. Years ago I was sitting on a lovely French hill chatting to a German guy who at 17 years old had run over the closed German border, dogs, lights, wall, mines etc! I said how restricted I found West Germany to be. He said that from his perspective in East Germany he found it pleasingly slack. He lived in a converted van! Perspectives and comparisons. My problem is that I compare everything here with New Zealand and what I value is hardly to be found here now. But when I read more about our loss of freedoms I became depressed and angry. The problem is that things could and should be so much better here. Further that we lost so much so recently and all without us noticing. But I agree with you. We were talking at cross purposes. Linzi.

Yes! Let's strive for the very best, if not just for us, but future generations.

I'll try reading some of the book over the weekend Linz .. I might be picketing Starbucks by Monday ;)

Yeh
 

Hm, some years ago an Aussie I met made a comment. He had noticed that Scots all seemed to hold opinions on everything. Careful here what he meant and I think correctly noticed is that Scots aren't laissez faire types. I have to live with my upbringing! Someone else once commented that if I dressed as a hippy I'd not be able to pull off the act. Uptight? No, it's some sort of "But it could be better". It is incidentally applied even more harshly inwards! I have just recieved a parcel from South America and it got through customs unchecked. Great! Now I'm off out to sell the contents in small portions and hope to make a big profit and pay for new barrels and pistons for my bike--final trip prepartations! I'm talking hand made knitted products by the way! Linzi.

Steved – I don’t really think you understand the arguments here or the full implications of what the government is trying to achieve. Comparisons with Nazi Germany, the GDR, USSR, Burma etc are not exact and never could be but they do serve as warnings of what other governments have done and therefore, serve as useful analogies of what could take place in the UK under malevolent circumstances. You ask what malevolent circumstances? - Black Swans! It is worth noting however, that only five other common law countries have introduced compulsory ID cards and it is debatable if even those countries are real countries at all. That in itself should be indicative of something.

The UK will never be like those country’s but then those country’s were (and are) different from each other. Except in one respect; their governments took great care to record each and every detail of citizen’s lives, their ethnicity, their location, their movements, their associations and many more data “of interest to the state”. The UK National Identity Register will require each and every person in the UK to attend their designated interrogation centre where you will be compelled to furnish the officers 66 (at this point in time) pieces of data about yourself. You will then be finger printed, iris scanned, photographed and if the association of Chief Police Officers have their way, a sample of your DNA taken and stored. Refusal to attend will result in fines and or imprisonment – you have no freedom to refuse, you have no choice in the matter. Then you will pay £120 for a plastic license which will entitle you to live in your own country. If you move you will have to inform the NIR of your new location. I won’t go into the reasons why they are intent on doing this (they change every few months as each previous and successive reason is challenged and demolished) but in business we have a maxim “you can’t manage what you can’t measure”. In short, your identity will become the property of the state. (“Property of the State” might seem an emotive phrase – in fact when I instructed my GP not to upload my medical records to the NHS database I was informed they didn’t belong to me, they belonged to the state and as an employee of the state they were obliged to upload them. Long story short, I had to withdraw from the NHS and now have no medical cover).

In the country’s mentioned above mass surveillance and ID cards did not protect or enhance the security of the people (the state excepted of course) but facilitated their subjugation.

You say you can’t see the problem with the state storing records of when you exit and return to the country for ten years but in doing so you miss the subtlety of the argument and ignore the other aspects of the function of this database. Why is the state storing your travel movements and what business is it of theirs where you are going, why you are going and with whom you are associating? Who is the arbiter here? Of course nothing will happen to you Steved, nothing happened to the vast majority of people in the countries mentioned above either.

The freedom even to ask this question didn’t come to you by accident, it came at the point of a gun, a pike staff and a sword and many people died to preserve that freedom so that you could ask this question so to shrug your shoulders as if to say “so what” and even to consider the risk of losing them is a breathtaking insult to the people who gave you those freedoms. Still, that’s the modern “Brit” for you.

Personally, I have given up on this nasty country anyway and have decided to leave. As OP of this thread I merely wanted to point out that the Labour party is trying to extend its’ reach, its’ surveillance on you outside of this country as well as inside and to attempt to monitor us even when we do leave. If you are happy with the state of affairs (which you seem to be) then by all means, drop your trousers, bend down and take it like they want you to but don’t be surprised if at some point you find it uncomfortable your eyes start to water. Whatever the case it won’t be my concern, you will have allowed it to happen. It’s a big risk you are taking. Good luck with that. Fingers crossed it will all be OK hey. :thumbup1:

The biggest lie you will ever be told is “We are the Government – we are here to help you”.

Post Scrip: ...just heard that someone tried to take a picture of this facility at Wythenshawe. He was arrested and his camera taken off him.

You are quite right - my sincere apologies to all. I meant his solution to the Monarch problem, and didnt allow for his slaughter in Ireland.:oops2:

Fastship I still don't see an issue with lots of the points you raise, and indeed I can see benefits in them, rather than quote the whole post I will just address a couple of points:

ID Card - I personally don't have any major issue with a national ID card scheme, in fact a comprehensive ID card scheme could be a convenience in many ways as it provides a single easy method of proving your identity, better than turning up at places with the collection of bank statements, utility bills, driving licences and passport. And having a foolproof (OK that may be optimistic) way of proving my identity could be a benefit.

A national DNA database - I am 100% in favour of this and if they introduced even a voluntary one I would submit my DNA straight away. Why we don't have this already, along with a fingerprint database I don't know, as long as access to them was limited to law enforcement then, in my opinion, the only people that would need to be concerned about them would be criminals.

Regarding e-borders and storing travel history again it is not something I am opposed to, I would imagine such data would be very useful to security services and law enforcement.

Could any of the above be abused, of course they could, but I don't automatically assume that they will be, and if they aren't abused then I certainly don't see them as a threat to personal freedom or liberty.

I suppose it all comes down to personal belief in what the information is being collected for, if you could please answer me the following question:

Assuming that a DNA database, ID cards and the full e-borders scheme was implemented and also assuming that they were used as they should be (access to the information by law enforcement and security services only) then what is the harm?

umm honestly Steved - your child like trust and naivety is very touching and therefore I feel only able to pat you on the head and send you on your way - except for the fact that even if you sincerely hold such beliefs explain to me the right that you have to impose them on me?

I won't be drawn into ad hominem arguments but it is people like you (the majority) who have ruined this country and make me now want to not live here any longer. Your utopia is my dystopia.

One last thing - if for some reason I don't manage my escape and you are at the head of the queue to impose ID cards on me and my family - come well armed. You will need to be.

"In my Cold Dead Hand" - the only way you will make me carry an ID card...