Government to track your overseas movements
 

The (Labour) government is in the process of establishing yet another of their surveillance databases. This particular piece of technology is designed to track the movements of British nationals travel movements OVERSEAS and it is for this reason HU should be aware.

The database is in the unpublicised part of the government’s so-called “e-borders” programme, intended to count everyone who comes in and out of the country by 2014. The existence and location for the database was secret and accidentally revealed by the Home Secretary last week. At the moment the UK Border Agency is running a pilot which monitors the travel movements of passengers on “high-risk” routes (i.e. the kinds of places WE like to travel to) from a small number of airports, including Heathrow and Gatwick. Under the new scheme, once a person buys a ticket to travel to or from the UK by air, sea or rail, the carrier will deliver that person’s data to the agency. The computerised pattern of every individual’s travel history will be stored for up to 10 years. The database is also expected to monitor people’s travel companions so that over time, a "pattern of associations" can be established.

Located in Wythenshawe, near Manchester and staffed by 600 people, half of which are technicians the rest police, immigration, MI5 & MI6 officers. The data is also expected to be shared with foreign governments, agencies of foreign governments and if the practice of the DVLA is to be followed, sold to commercial entities. Surveiled UK citizens are not permitted to know to what use the information is to be put, which foreign governments or agencies of foreign governments the data is shared with and what data those entities supply in return to the UK agency - i.e. their movements in that country and places stayed, with whom they might associate in a foreign country.

It is unclear how you can be tracked on a bike except that “high-risk” routes as defined by this paranoid government and not using the kind of transport that can easily be tracked would immediately flag you up as “a person of interest” and in say Morocco, that might be open to interpretation and not a good thing to be.

One of my motivations for travelling is to escape the ID cards, CCTV and the sinister surveillance society the UK is sadly becoming but it seems the government is trying to find ways to keep me AND YOU under surveillance even when we are outside of our own country. Of course if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear. Do you.

So they're going to count me out and count me in. I thought they already did that when I handed my passport over and they checked me on the database or is this something different?

It is indeed something very different. Although part of border control, this is a surveillance database intended to track and store your movements not just into and out of the country but where you go and with whom you associate so that inferences may be drawn. Under the RIPA laws failure to disclose to a designated official data they request (i.e. which countries you intend to visit and why) will be a criminal offence and may result in you being denied "the privallege" of travel through the confiscation of your passport and from 2012 your identity card which of course, will also be your driving license too by then.

If your "driving privileges" are also withdrawn (via the database onto your ID card) you will not be able to ride your bike or obtain insurance for it (you'll need your ID card to do that). Your internal movements can then be tracked by another of the linked databases every time you purchase a ticket to travel on public transport.

When people talked about the database state and the surveillance society, this is what they meant. Neat huh?

hey
 

is there any external links to confirm this information?

knock yourself out Tommy:-

BBC NEWS | UK | Government plans travel database

Government compiles travel records database - UK Politics, UK - The Independent

Spy centre will track you on holiday -Times Online

there's plenty more about this and related issues for those who've had their heads burried in the sand for the last five years.

Just as a further example, hidden in the new Coroners and Justice Bill is one clause (cl.152) amending the Data Protection Act. It would allow ministers to make 'Information Sharing Orders', that can alter any Act of Parliament and cancel all rules of confidentiality in order to use information obtained for one purpose to be used for another.

This single clause is as grave a threat to privacy as the entire ID Scheme. Combine it with the index to your life formed by the above database and the planned National Identity Register and everything recorded about you anywhere could be accessible to any official body or foreign government or agency of a foreign government.




Also, under the US "Patriot Act" any US company must disclose to the US government and data they hold even if that data is held in a foreign country or foreign subsidiary. It is a federal offence to reveal the fact that the US government even made that order. Why is this relevent you may ask? Well most of the huge database contracts are held by US companies and inter alia, the US government so fingers crossed when travelling through i.e. Jordan that you don't share a name or even an association with a "person of interest"...

I don't see why people assume this is such a bad thing, what difference does it really make to me if the government knows what flights / trips I have done and also who with?

Genuinely I am not trying to troll or anything, I just don't see it as such a big deal.

Taking Liberties
 

Hi, get a copy of the book Taking Liberties and your question will be answered. Really, it is an essential book to read. It would be worth paying four times the asking price for such enlightenment. I am not being sarcy. Linzi. ps The next time I travel overseas I intend to do so troubling no-one but also avoiding this surveillance. haven't worked out how yet but am really working at it. Heil Hitler. Linzi.

Steved - if living under mass state surveillance makes you feel safer that's cool. This being a travel site there are many states to which you can travel where you feel very safe. I'm thinking China, Burma, Syria..actually none of these states have the kind of mass surveillance we in the UK do so perhaps I'm wrong. You might care to ask the Russian or East German readers of HU what difference, prior to 1989 it really make to them if the government knows what flights / trips they had done and also who with?

Anyway, my point is there are many who think this is a very sinister thing indeed and even if you there are those of us who do not wish to live in such a state. If we do not want a political party to eviserate every part of our privacy that is OUR right. Your privalege is to question that right but like the government, not to take that right away.

I feel like saying "unless by gun point" but Orwell was spot on about Ingsoc. As long as the proles have their DVD, internet, beer, gambling, etc. then they're happy.

It isn't a case of living under mass state surveillance making me feel safe, it's more a case of the mass state surveillance not having any impact on me or the way I live my life. I appreciate that this may sound incredibly naive but I just don't have an issue with it or view it as anything sinister.

1984
 

Some 15 years ago I found out that a flight by me to a South American country had been recorded because a trip to an EU country triggered a passport check on me out of 100 passengers. Even back then flight info was recorded, cheap. Software scanned it, cheap. Then an immigration officer speaks to you, cheap. After that I don't know what, more expensive. They wasted their time with me but I now know that much is already recorded. Big Brother is not a house! My intended port of exit on a bike has outward facing cameras to record licence numbers. I am working on it but it looks like going very illegal is needed to move around minding your own business now. Heil Hitler, Linzi.

Thanks for the links mate. no offence, but its always better to hear from the horses mouth as well.

Obviously this means the the uk govenrment would have to have access to foreign immigration data, right? I wonder how other nations would feel about this? Although I guess foreign governments would rather let your own nation deal with you, if you did something wrong.

I hope the UK government keeps an open mind towards the adventure traveller, after all the world is for travelling. I would hate to find myself in Columbia been chased by cops because some narrow minded a******e, sitting in a sweaty shirt in an office outside Manchester, 'red flags' me becasue "who on earth would want to ride around columbia"?..."ah, he must be a drug dealer...".

Still though, I guess I wouldnt complain if I was sat in a cell in the Sudan awaiting my release that was quickly arranged by the GB embassy because "yeah hes alright, hes just some guy on a bike".

Linzi - first off if you (or anyone else) has not already done so you can buy yourself some time by obtaining a new passport.

Why you should renew your passport, or get one NOW if you are 16 or over.
The Identity Cards Act 2006 may soon turn your passport into a one-way ticket to government control of your identity. That means lifelong surveillance, and untold bureaucracy. This website, produced by the NO2ID campaign, is about how getting a new passport can help you avoid being forced to register your life on the ID database.

See:
renew for freedom - renew your passport

Yip
 

Hi yes I know. I personally get involved with NO2ID.com. Actually, some time ago I was stopped from taking a wrapped boomerang on a flight. OK throw it away, no problem really but the immigration officer hung around to see which airline I had dealt with so I guess now I am listed as having tried to take a weapon onboard. Nice? Also reasons to be worried include what happens when incorrect info is held or mistakes made. On Guardian or Independent website in last two weeks there was a story of just that. The woman had great problems--no passport and no ID card. Administration mistake. Heil Hitler--We need a signing off line that isn't offensive to modern Germans but doesn't say Ciao rather indicates Big Brother breathes--down our necks. Linzi.

It's no good throwing it away Linzi - it would just come right back at you - DUH!!!

The USA has had similar programs in place even before 9/11. After 9/11 they were given billions more to initiate even more Orwellian procedures. Data mining is all part of it and it can only lead to even tighter Police state rule and will never protect us from anyone.

I've recently found out US Homeland Security have every travel move I've made in last 7 or 8 years.

Mistakes? They make plenty of mistakes. Coming into Canada in '03 I was asked about the White Supremacist group I was (supposedly) a member of in N. Carolina. :eek3: I had not even been to N. Carolina since 1985 and was there only four months working at that time.

I asked for details .... and they instantly dropped it and let me go. Sometimes a border guard will throw things out just to get a reaction. Bait. Coming back into the US this last November ('08 from Mexico) the guy says: "oh, I see you make a lot of trips to Mexico." I was in my van and they gave it the full search. On the bike, less problems but they still record your entrance and details in the computer. IT'S ALL THERE!

Once you get on someone's list .... and this can happen just from making one comment to the robot behind the computer screen .... This list will be shared internationally. Your file will have everything about you and can potentially delay you or STOP you at any border you cross.

Cheers,

Patrick :scooter:

Steved - I'm afraid you are not the arbitar of whether this affects you, the government and their software is.

Another database the Labour Party wish to introduce is one which compels ISP's to monitor every site you visit and every e-mail you make, every phone call you make and to whom, hold that data for ten years and submit it to the state.

Let us play a thought game; You visit the Sahara forum here to plan a trip to Morocco. On a thread you see the word polisario. Is this what they call the cops over there? You google Polisario and find it's an acronym "Frente Popular de Liberación de Saguía el Hamra y Río de Oro " an armed terrorist organistion with rumored links to Al Qaeda, at war with Marocco for some years. Oh well, none of your business. Except that your visit to that site has been logged on a database. On another database it is noted that you are travelling to Morocco and the two items of data are combined on a third database which in a reciprocal arrangment with the Moroccan government flags you up as a visitor with known links to the Polisario. You enter Marocco happy in the knowledge that you'll soon be Waddi Bashing. Except that pretty quickly you find yourself in a dark cell bent over a bench with a cattle prod where the sun don't shine trying to explain that you have no links to the Polisario even though your government has furnished docmentary proof you do.

Far fetched? Watch out for a UK resident returning this week from Gitmo after seven years under very similar circumstances. The High Court was prevented last week from revealing what exactly happend to ths person after threats from the US and UK government, thought to be motivated by implicating those governments and their ministers in conspiracy to torture.

Still - if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear right? And it's not like computers make mistakes :innocent:

Very!

While I can understand what you are saying the fact is that the example you give is way over simplified. Data mining of this type could and no doubt is used in such a way, but it would take a lot more than a single visit to a website and a trip to a foreign country to get you flagged as an international terrorist, as for Binyam Mohamed how does his case relate to this? As I understand it he is in Gitmo having been accused of training at an Al-Qaeda camp and trying to fly using a false passport.

Don't get me wrong, I don't support the thinking behind Gitmo at all, but I also don't see how it relates to government gathering information about it's citizens travel arrangements either.

Golden Shield
 

China is developing (or perhaps more accurately getting other people to develop) a system called Golden Shield. In a nutshell, it incorporates internet monitoring and face-recognition CCTV, so that at any minute of the day the government can know who is where and what they're doing. It's being trialled in Shanghai. And the British government is interested.

Now I'm not a huge paranoia-type person. I also (and many will shout at me about this) believe that quite frankly there isn't very much we can do about it. After all, given Britain went to war in Iraq with that much public and international opinion against them, protests aren't really going to stop anything. And we already have a prime minister that no ordinary voter got a say about (and an unelected royal family, and a war to teach the Iraqis about democracy. But that's another story).

The thing is, in Britain at the moment we can get away with saying it doesn't concern us. And Britain's CCTV-fest began with the IRA and preventing attacks, which in principle is a good thing. But what matters is what happens if those at the top aren't as scrupulous as they should be. The Chinese government cheerfully imprisons people for looking at websites they don't think people should - things like BBC news for example. Because to their mind that's evidence of dissent. What matters isn't whether you've done anything wrong or not, it's the fact that the goverment gets the power to prove you did something it thinks was wrong. And that infrastructure, once there, stays there. Hitler was elected. France nearly brought in LePen through sheer voter apathy (which scared them into going to the polls for the 2nd round). George Bush is a war criminal - and isn't ever going to go to trial for it. In France you already have to carry a form of ID on you at all times. As a young white woman I've never had mine checked. For black or Arab male friends it's almost routine.

Mistakes happen, but rarely. But what happens if the political situation changes and you become the "target" population?

On a lighter note, I used to do gigs at Windsor Castle. As you can imagine, every company has to submit the names of its employees for the day in advance, so they can be security checked. We turned up one day to find a lot of cops hanging around. Asked them what was happening, and they said one of the catering guys had been flagged up - he was on the run from the cops for a stabbing. So rather than chase him, they came to wait for him. How stupid do you have to be to take on a job in a royal palace when you're wanted by the police?!

Laura, still looking for that patch of hillside where the world and its machinations can be ignored.

It is rumored that the case against Binyam Mohamed eminated from a visit he made to a spoof website about how to make a nuclear bomb in your kitchen. After 18 months of systematic torture the US government built a case in their own minds that he was planning a "dirty bomb". There are no charges against this person and he is awaiting release from Gitmo..

My thought game whilst illustrative does not constitute my argument against all this. If data is collected on everyone then everyone is a suspect, the state and the security forces will always find what they are predisposed to find. In the 1950's that well know liberal pinko President Eisenhower in his valedictory address warned against the powerful military industrial complex creating a momentum which he feared might be unstoppable and result in nuclear war with Russia. The same is happening now with mass surveilance mechanisms under the pretext of security.

The state, whether by design or not is arranging a state of affairs that makes us accountable to them, contrary to the status quo. It is using fear and the "precautionary principle" to accrue more power to the state and is diligently assembling the instruments and mechanisms of a totalitarian state. It will not be like any totalitarian state seen before but will nevertheless, be one. In my opinion it will be a state of "total government".

The British people will one day wake up and realise they are living in a new form of a police state with little or no power to do anything about it. They will deserve this state of affairs because they did nothing to stop it. They may even enjoy their new state. I will observe you from afar.

Good night and good luck.

not meaning to sound racist, but his name was mohamed, guilty or not, and he was looking at how to build a nuke in ones own kitchen. im not the type to racially stereoptype, i see a person as a person and not a spectrum of light or colour, or religion or creed. but in the big book of "know your terrorist" this would make the reader very suspiscious.

i hope i do not sound like an arse and feel sick at the though of him being torture.

as for police controlled state; i laugh so hard my sides are splitting at that idea chum. we have it ****ing good compared to those poor bastards in less fortunate parts of the world.

Hopefully this Government won't be in power long enough for their crazy ideas to come into effect, why don't they go the whole way and propose micro chipping us all?

Why check on us when our borders welcome every scumbag that wants to jump on the uk benefits and health system.

We know Clarkson is a twat but he was correct about Gordon(un-elected)Brown, the bit that amused me was the person who 'jumped' to Browns defence.........David Blunkett, :rofl:

:eek3:

...i'm not a racist - but hmmm how many callers to phone in shows begin with that line then continue with "but his name was mohamed"...:nono:

a police state is not a state controlled by police, they are as much controlled as anyone else is in such a state. We do have it quite good (not ****ing good) so let's keep it that way.

Good point Davy Edge - all who are reading this, when the time comes please please please put your tick in the box that is not labour!!!!

A vote for anyone else but labour is a vote for freedom :thumbup1:

Laura Bennit - Irony of Ironies, I seem to remember the Chinese visited London to study our advanced surveillance systems so they could apply them back home. I wonder if in 2012 there will be British "men in blue track suits" running alongside the torch intercepting freedom protesters?:rofl: If you find that patch let me know and I'l lcome and sit next to you :thumbup1:

ps also for the poster who made the point about the war I am reminded of the old pre WW1 definition of a socialist - "someone who thinks a bayonet is a tool that should have a worker at each end"

...the more things change the more they stay the same :(

to claify
 

never thought for one minute that you were man. just had to make a sad fact that someone with a name or middle eastern origin is more likely to be a suspected than that of a western name. its a sad state of affairs.

There have been several unelected PMs. But it didnt suit the rightwing press to scream about it.

So who's controlling the police? And if we have it "quite good" tell that to the many innocent Irish people jailed for 18 years in the UK; Tell it to the British citizens illegally kidnapped and imprisoned without trial in Guantanamo... as they say on that "Jungle " TV show....it could be you!

Damn - I promised myself not to get drawn in .......

Cammie, not sure you can lay the blame of British Citizens in Guantanamo on Britain. I think the citizens were brought out by the british government. short of going to war with the Americans not sure what they could do more, for the citizens

The Irish, of course, yes, that was a problem. When using the term quite good I reckon he ewas probably saying quite in comparison to (in no particualr order, and not exclusively):

Russia
America
China
Burma
Zimbabwe
Turkmenistan
Ukraine
Angola
Congo
Indonesia
Malaysia
Saudi
Uzbekistan
Iran
Cuba

etc etc

I always love people here harping on about how opressed we are. We are not and we are privilidged compared the majority of the world! Most people in the world would give their right arms to live here. And I do mean that literally in every sense.

Of course, it is our duty as citizens of the country to keep it this way by stopping bad legislation coming in etc. But man the moaning minis of this country, to me, are the worst things about it ....


Right thats it, got it off my chest.

Good points Ollie - and I tried to resist comment too but I couldn't help it!

The UK govt did nothing for years about Guan. It was a disgrace. They only got involved recently because the US wants to shut down this hideous jail. And the UK took orders as usual, just as over Iraq.

Dont forget that the US invaded British territory some years back and the uk whimpered but said and did nothing about it.

Those above who think the state is benign should look at McCarthyism, Guan., the H Block prisons, the Diplock courts and many other examples.

Wrong - I think Anyhow
 

As far as I am aware the British government was one of the first people to get it's citizens out of Guantanamo. It was the residence and others that they did not help (why should they???). I totally do not agree with Guantanamo BTW. They should fight to close it yes, but if you are complaining about the way the govenment interferes with British citizens you are choicing the wrong example, I am led to believe anyhow. If you know different let me know please!

I do agree that the state is by no means benign, but I just ask for a little bit of balance. To the everyday Jo, this country has a lot of good things going for it. To compare this in ANY way to Nazi Germany, as has been implied in other posts, to me shows either ignorance of what went on 70 years ago, or just a very bad argument.

Bit there are problems I do agree, but keep the scale correct is all I ask.

But to me, this debate is important ....... and the only way to keep it serious is to keep the hyperbole out and the facts in.

Liberties
 

Hi Ollie, I would urge you to read a copy of the book Taking Liberties in order to gain a balanced view. There is no "innocent till proven guilty", no " freedom of speach" either in the UK now. I regret this but must still observe it to be so. Linzi.

Hi Ollie

No hyperbole BTW- not from me anyway. I did not say the UK was the worst, so you'll need to rethink that... And I didnt link the UK to Nazi Germany; please read the post accurately - find out about the word "Stasi". I also mentioned several issues where the UK has denied liberties that were hard won; you don't refer to these issues.

Liberty is not a privilege handed out by governments. It doesn't belong to them like some commodity.

I am against complacency in the UK, where people imagine that everything's OK. Don't forget you are a "subject" in the UK, whose Head of State is a monarch; a country without a written Constitution, and whose Upper House is stuffed with unelected geriatrics.

It's lucky we are also at least European citizens.

Come on Ollie - you've got a lot of reading to catch up on!:smiliex:

A bit at a time
 

OK Linz - challenge accepted and Taking Libertiesordered from Amazon, and due to being a prime customer should arrive tomorrow :) I will read it asap.

Of course I will read it in the same vein as anything that could be slanted tomwards one side (great example Michael Moore films- yes I am anti bush/war etc, but one has to to the whole truth, otherwise it is just propoganda !!). Looking forward to it.

Cammie - from my response you may think I hold the opposite view to you, but I am not. I am very much a libertarian, and anti monarchy etc etc. But I am also a commited realistic and optimist. Trust me, I am more anti big brother than most, but if all it does it protect us (really not government spin) then, well maybe I am prepared to accept that vs some other 'nasties' that could be coming our way.

Vive la revolution! But be nice too

PS - I may have dragged this thread a little of the original topic. Sorry :):)

Ollie -let's agree that Cromwell had the right idea!!!!!:thumbup1:

Shhh
 

Cromwell is not a good name for me to mention, being called Oliver and living in Ireland.

Luckily all Irish are well aware that the Cornish are brothers in arms ....!!!!

I don't really see how the secret police of the GDR fit into this argument in any way, the UK isn't East Germany and storing detailed records of people leaving and entering the country for ten years isn't going to turn us into it either!

I have never really understood why people raise this as an issue, yes we are subjects rather than citizens, yes we have no constitution, but how many other countries enjoy more personal freedoms than we do?

Thought experiment
 

OK - heres a thought experiment - imagine saying how bad a country this is to live in to someone from the Nazi era, or Stalin Era, Or current Zimbabwe.

Personally I think you would end up feeling pretty goddam embarrassed for not appreciating what you have got, before complaining.

That’s all I ask people, look at the positives, not the just the negatives.

Linzi's experience with the guy who took his boomerang away, the guy was just a dick, and there’s tonnes of them all round the world! It wasn't a sign that we're about to be woken up during the night to have all our boomerangs confiscated. It was a one off stupid act by a stupid man.

Love and Peace

Ollie

Hi Ollie, yes with immigration officers, on return to UK the staff couldn't have been more different and the coutesy shown me was just right. I see what you mean in keeping it in perspective. Years ago I was sitting on a lovely French hill chatting to a German guy who at 17 years old had run over the closed German border, dogs, lights, wall, mines etc! I said how restricted I found West Germany to be. He said that from his perspective in East Germany he found it pleasingly slack. He lived in a converted van! Perspectives and comparisons. My problem is that I compare everything here with New Zealand and what I value is hardly to be found here now. But when I read more about our loss of freedoms I became depressed and angry. The problem is that things could and should be so much better here. Further that we lost so much so recently and all without us noticing. But I agree with you. We were talking at cross purposes. Linzi.

Yes! Let's strive for the very best, if not just for us, but future generations.

I'll try reading some of the book over the weekend Linz .. I might be picketing Starbucks by Monday ;)

Yeh
 

Hm, some years ago an Aussie I met made a comment. He had noticed that Scots all seemed to hold opinions on everything. Careful here what he meant and I think correctly noticed is that Scots aren't laissez faire types. I have to live with my upbringing! Someone else once commented that if I dressed as a hippy I'd not be able to pull off the act. Uptight? No, it's some sort of "But it could be better". It is incidentally applied even more harshly inwards! I have just recieved a parcel from South America and it got through customs unchecked. Great! Now I'm off out to sell the contents in small portions and hope to make a big profit and pay for new barrels and pistons for my bike--final trip prepartations! I'm talking hand made knitted products by the way! Linzi.

Steved – I don’t really think you understand the arguments here or the full implications of what the government is trying to achieve. Comparisons with Nazi Germany, the GDR, USSR, Burma etc are not exact and never could be but they do serve as warnings of what other governments have done and therefore, serve as useful analogies of what could take place in the UK under malevolent circumstances. You ask what malevolent circumstances? - Black Swans! It is worth noting however, that only five other common law countries have introduced compulsory ID cards and it is debatable if even those countries are real countries at all. That in itself should be indicative of something.

The UK will never be like those country’s but then those country’s were (and are) different from each other. Except in one respect; their governments took great care to record each and every detail of citizen’s lives, their ethnicity, their location, their movements, their associations and many more data “of interest to the state”. The UK National Identity Register will require each and every person in the UK to attend their designated interrogation centre where you will be compelled to furnish the officers 66 (at this point in time) pieces of data about yourself. You will then be finger printed, iris scanned, photographed and if the association of Chief Police Officers have their way, a sample of your DNA taken and stored. Refusal to attend will result in fines and or imprisonment – you have no freedom to refuse, you have no choice in the matter. Then you will pay £120 for a plastic license which will entitle you to live in your own country. If you move you will have to inform the NIR of your new location. I won’t go into the reasons why they are intent on doing this (they change every few months as each previous and successive reason is challenged and demolished) but in business we have a maxim “you can’t manage what you can’t measure”. In short, your identity will become the property of the state. (“Property of the State” might seem an emotive phrase – in fact when I instructed my GP not to upload my medical records to the NHS database I was informed they didn’t belong to me, they belonged to the state and as an employee of the state they were obliged to upload them. Long story short, I had to withdraw from the NHS and now have no medical cover).

In the country’s mentioned above mass surveillance and ID cards did not protect or enhance the security of the people (the state excepted of course) but facilitated their subjugation.

You say you can’t see the problem with the state storing records of when you exit and return to the country for ten years but in doing so you miss the subtlety of the argument and ignore the other aspects of the function of this database. Why is the state storing your travel movements and what business is it of theirs where you are going, why you are going and with whom you are associating? Who is the arbiter here? Of course nothing will happen to you Steved, nothing happened to the vast majority of people in the countries mentioned above either.

The freedom even to ask this question didn’t come to you by accident, it came at the point of a gun, a pike staff and a sword and many people died to preserve that freedom so that you could ask this question so to shrug your shoulders as if to say “so what” and even to consider the risk of losing them is a breathtaking insult to the people who gave you those freedoms. Still, that’s the modern “Brit” for you.

Personally, I have given up on this nasty country anyway and have decided to leave. As OP of this thread I merely wanted to point out that the Labour party is trying to extend its’ reach, its’ surveillance on you outside of this country as well as inside and to attempt to monitor us even when we do leave. If you are happy with the state of affairs (which you seem to be) then by all means, drop your trousers, bend down and take it like they want you to but don’t be surprised if at some point you find it uncomfortable your eyes start to water. Whatever the case it won’t be my concern, you will have allowed it to happen. It’s a big risk you are taking. Good luck with that. Fingers crossed it will all be OK hey. :thumbup1:

The biggest lie you will ever be told is “We are the Government – we are here to help you”.

Post Scrip: ...just heard that someone tried to take a picture of this facility at Wythenshawe. He was arrested and his camera taken off him.

You are quite right - my sincere apologies to all. I meant his solution to the Monarch problem, and didnt allow for his slaughter in Ireland.:oops2:

Fastship I still don't see an issue with lots of the points you raise, and indeed I can see benefits in them, rather than quote the whole post I will just address a couple of points:

ID Card - I personally don't have any major issue with a national ID card scheme, in fact a comprehensive ID card scheme could be a convenience in many ways as it provides a single easy method of proving your identity, better than turning up at places with the collection of bank statements, utility bills, driving licences and passport. And having a foolproof (OK that may be optimistic) way of proving my identity could be a benefit.

A national DNA database - I am 100% in favour of this and if they introduced even a voluntary one I would submit my DNA straight away. Why we don't have this already, along with a fingerprint database I don't know, as long as access to them was limited to law enforcement then, in my opinion, the only people that would need to be concerned about them would be criminals.

Regarding e-borders and storing travel history again it is not something I am opposed to, I would imagine such data would be very useful to security services and law enforcement.

Could any of the above be abused, of course they could, but I don't automatically assume that they will be, and if they aren't abused then I certainly don't see them as a threat to personal freedom or liberty.

I suppose it all comes down to personal belief in what the information is being collected for, if you could please answer me the following question:

Assuming that a DNA database, ID cards and the full e-borders scheme was implemented and also assuming that they were used as they should be (access to the information by law enforcement and security services only) then what is the harm?

umm honestly Steved - your child like trust and naivety is very touching and therefore I feel only able to pat you on the head and send you on your way - except for the fact that even if you sincerely hold such beliefs explain to me the right that you have to impose them on me?

I won't be drawn into ad hominem arguments but it is people like you (the majority) who have ruined this country and make me now want to not live here any longer. Your utopia is my dystopia.

One last thing - if for some reason I don't manage my escape and you are at the head of the queue to impose ID cards on me and my family - come well armed. You will need to be.

"In my Cold Dead Hand" - the only way you will make me carry an ID card...

Fastship
 

Hi Fastship, out of interest what countries are you going to move to?

OK well that's one option, personally I would have liked to have heard your honest answer. I am curious to know if your objection to things such as DNA databases, ID cards and e-borders is because you feel the information will be misused in some way or if your objection is based on something else.

Absolutely none whatsoever, but then I'm not part of a democratically elected government.

All of them! I plan to take my bike and/or truck and just keep on going until I find a place of contentment.

I feel I have more than answered your questions or at least provided you with some basis to start your own enquiries if you have an open mind to do so.

As to your last point - you make the classic mistake of confusing democracy with freedom.

In conclusion, I wise president once said "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." B Franklin 1775.

Good luck in your new utopia, it sounds like you will be very happy in it and remember another quote - "denounce your neighbour for he may denounce you first!" - graffiti found engraved on the wall of a gulag in Russia. Author unknown. :thumbup1:

Well good luck
 

well good luck Fastship. We are doing the same things (although obviously not for the same reason). let us know when you find you utopia - I will certainly be interested if you find that most other countries have their own sins. Certainly all the ones I have so far been to all have plus and minus points .......

Not at all, the only problem is that democracy is the best option we have, the idea of living in a completely free society is just nonsense, it simply isn't possible.

As I said when I edited my last post, I am curious to know if your objections to all the stuff that has been raised in this thread is because you think it will be used beyond it's stated intent, just on general principle or if you have some other reason.

The Franklin quote is just nonsense I am afraid, anyone who lives in any form of society has to sacrifice some liberty for safety, that is how society works. Individuals sacrifice some personal liberty for the safety of society as a whole, usually in the form of laws.

Fastship.

Out of interest, your plan to ship out and move on, will that involve you applying for citizenship of another country? Because surely unless you do that you'll be just as restricted under any e-borders system as if you stayed?

I'm an ex-pat, but I still have a British passport, so I'm sure any government keen on tracking the movements of its subjects/citizens would be able to track me though its use. When it runs out I'll have to apply to the local embassy for a new one, so they can find me then. I'm sure it's almost impossible to drop off the grid and still maintain freedom of movement.

Fortunately I've got two other passports.

Paradoxically, ID cards are predicted to be readily forgeable therefore in accepting them, in theory I could have any identity and nationality I wish.
:rofl:

the british government already track individuals movements via your credit/debit/store/nectar cards ect. checking on where when and on what you spend your money on. you can run but you cant hide [cash is king]

I was thinking exactly the same thing. Every time you pay for fuel or lodging using a card or withdraw cash from a machine, "they" know exactly where you are. Banks build profiles of spending patterns in (admittedly hopeless) attempts to detect card and identity theft too.

On a lighter note, 12 of my friends were strip searched at Newcastle Airport after one of them joked to passport control that he had semtex and cocaine in his luggage. Now, everyone of those 12 has their passport flagged up whenever they travel.

If you get one fact wrong...
 

Steve

I'm a bit concerned about some of your comments in the light of this one. The UK does have a constitution (and most of it is written down in various laws), but we do not have a single document headed "The constitution of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". I used to think this was a strength as I (naively) thought it was harder to tamper with many documents and the first thing new dicators do is to re write the constitution, but I have been proved wrong by the government that now wants to create a database with my personal facts on it, to be sold to whichever commercial organisations donate to the Labour party, or lost on a train.

The UK is also no longer ranked very high in terms of personal freedom; you may not even protest against government policies without applying for police permission (which may be witheld without giving any reason)!

While many other countries have ID cards and some have databases, the one proposed for the UK will be one of the most all enveloping in the world (I did not say the free world, I meant the whole world; even China collects less data on its citizens than the UK). I will leaving for another European country, where I will carryy an ID card with eight pieces of data on it - 49 fewer than the UK expect from me.

Rant over, I'll try to confine myself to motorcycling issues for a while now.