Walter, a couple of obvious points:

First, in a lot of "corrupt" places (by which I specifically mean corrupt by Western standards), local people are as offended by this corruption as any of us. The concept of "corruption" being bad doesn't originate among clueless Western tourists who can't relate to other cultures.

Second, a lot of the "corruption" I've experienced does specifically target foreigners like ourselves. It's not an integrated part of local culture; it's an add-on, corresponding to precisely nothing in local terms.

FWIW, I pay when that's the locally-accepted penalty for being caught breaking the law--and when I have in fact broken that law. And I tip when expected to tip by local custom--that can include payments which are sometimes called "baksheesh" or "bribes." Even so, local custom usually includes a period of bargaining--kicking and complaining and whining for all your worth before perhaps capitulating to some minor sort of payout. People who blithely pay whatever is first demanded because they figure that's the way things are done in exotic locales are doing nobody any favors, and they're certainly not participating in local customs.

I will also pay a bribe when I feel genuinely in danger. That's happened exactly once in all my travels, in the middle of the night at a deserted outpost in an African country about to descend into a particularly nasty civil war. Even then, I bargained the guy down, that being what was expected (and being done on all sides of me by the locals).

It's possible we're describing different cultures, all else aside. I'm most familiar with Africa and the Americas; you may be thinking primarily of areas of Europe and Asia. Or not: what do I know? But I think it's worth considering: the rest of the world doesn't operate according to Kazakh or Ukrainian customs any more than it does by Euro or North American standards.

Mark

Mark - I focussed my answer on That area in particular as Seb, the OP, is currently in Mongolia, having just travelled through Ukraine Kazakhstan and Russia - thus its reasonable to assume that area played a strong part in the post. Its also the area where most of my first hand knowledge of such practises originates.

I don't disagree that local people may hate some aspects of corruption. But as I said its up to them to change it rather than for us, as temporary visitors in their country, to demand to be treated differently. I would add that in the countries I mentioned where traffic police can be negotiated with, while the public may hate those traffic police, very few would want to scrap it for full fines and penalty points that result in drivers losing their licences for three minor offences in the previous 5 years like we have in the UK.

I also agree with you that being singled out for larger fines as a foreigner is not something I can generally tolerate. Thus it pays to know local customs, and what's normal fines and practices for dealing with them for locals in that area. I have written posts before describing the usual practice in those countries above and the typical fines associated with certain offences so that people have some idea but to be honest I am surprised it doesnt come up more often.

Again tho my key point is why should a foreigner get different treatment to a local? The example given in the OP was of a guy pulled over for speeding. So thats the example I am working with. At the end of the day, the guy in the example broke the law and he was caught. Why is it unreasonable that he be penalised exactly as a local would be?

I had a number of cases of overt demands for money whilst in Kazakhstan. On two of those occasions I hadn't done anything to warrant it (ie hadn't broken the law) for me those were the occasions that pissed me off. The other times I did what I would normally do, try to talk my way out it.

Walter some of the "Western Style" bribery you mention offends me just as much any Eastern corruption and is just as bad IMHO.



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True, BUT:

I never implied (at least that wasn't the purpose) that a foreigner should get another treatment, quite the opposite.

What makes me "angry" (it's a bad choice of word, I can see that now) is that if I get pulled over for no reason, I didn't brake any law, and it is expected that I pay. That's something that I won't do. If anybody think then that I am 'above' the locals or anything, I disagree. I will not pay a "toll" just for passing by, because that's it in the end. And yes, maybe I am alone thinking this, but I've been a cop for the last 10 years and I won't give any "bribe" because I just happen to be passing by and being a foreigner. If I did something wrong, or don't have the right papers or need to speed things up or whatever that's a complete other discussion. That I apparently opened even if it wasn't my goal with my first post :(

So let me refrase my first post to this:

Honestly, I get "angry" and disappointed when I read that people (especially motorcyclist!!!) paid a bribe to the police for no reason whatsoever. If you broke a law it's your choice to pay the official or unofficial fine, but paying just because you are there for no reason is something that I will never ever do.

I hope this is a bit more clearly, I am really tired and thinking A and writing B apparently, as even Kim (my wife) said that I meant something else than I wrote down... Anyway, I clearly mean paying for nothing because the other one has a uniform/badge/... my opinion.

@ Walter, you're more or less right about the region of which I am talking about, but I've been here last year also... so it's not a one time thing either. :thumbup1: And I am clearly well aware of the local habits, that's not the point. And I don't know if he was speeding or not, as he told me I thought not, but if he was it changes everything of course...

Need to make a clear distinction between getting pulled over for breaking a law (regardless of how trivial, and whether or not the locals do or don't obey that law) and getting pulled over to contribute to the officer's standard of living.

In the first case it is quite legitimate to try and talk your way out of it - and that happens all over the world on the assumption that the officer might give you a warning instead of a ticket - but if that fails then the correct fine has to be paid at the right place. What's to complain about?

Not legitimate to pay the officer a bribe to not write the ticket, if only because you are then breaking the law too.
In the last case, I have all the time in the world.

That said, there are always going to be situations where life or limb might be at stake, and in that case, nobody is going to expect everyone to follow a set of guidelines as to what to do or not to do.

That i totally agree with :)

And yes it does happen in KZ and UA that you can be pulled over for doing nothing wrong and asked for money. In my experience it doesnt happen in Russia anymore, and hasnt for 10 years or so. They (in RU) might pull you over and ask to check your documents, but only in KZ and UA have I had cops actually make up offences. In those cases obviously its a mind game. For a number of reasons, Ukraine and Kazakhstan are a lot more corrupt at that level than Russia.

Some russian friends have a policy ... tell (or make clear) to the cops that (1) you have plenty of time (2) you have no money (3) you are not afraid of pain.

Well if you break the law and get caught, why is the officers motives in pulling the trigger on the radar gun relevant to whether or not you deserve to pay some sort of a fine? :confused1:

I suspect in Russia and other countries, the police are paid a deliberately low income by the state because they are expected to supplement it via "tips". You are not so much supplementing his income by paying him, as you are part of the quota he needs to fulfil to feed his family.

If you dont want to legitimately get caught speeding, its pretty simple to avoid it. Either dont speed, or take back roads. Radar traps are only economically viable on well trafficked highways.

Traffic cops in Russia are not wealthy guys. They are pretty damn low in the food chain. They are not the Russians taking beach holidays in the South of France, or contributing to Jaguar / Range Rover's massive sales growth in Russia. Russia's is a rapidly growing economy where the average person has gone from an average income of 10% that of the west 12 years ago to 50-60% if the west now. Traffic cops are not part of that that dramatic rise. If you take away their supplementary income then the job becomes pretty close to non-viable.

Russian driving habits and traffic enforcement still has a long way to go. The state needs as many of them on the job as it can get. There is sometimes a contradictory set of complaints from foreigners in Russia ... that the standard of locals following traffic rules sux, and that traffic police's willingness to penalise them (the foreigners) for breaking the traffic laws sux. Its illogical to complain about both. The reality is that the locals do not follow traffic rules as critically as western drivers, which should mean we APPLAUD the traffic police for being out there enforcing the rules !

I still have plenty of occasions in Russian cities where I get cut off by drivers cutting across lanes or pushing in front at traffic lights when I am yelling in my helmet "where are the damn traffic cops?"

What's to complain about? Have you ever gotten a ticket in Russia? First of all you generally have to go to the bank and pay a fine, which would be no problem except for two minor details:
1) depending on the violation, often they won't let you take your bike until you can show your receipt, so you have to take a cab or some other form of transport;
2) unless you are in a city, you might need to go quite a long way to get to a bank, and then back to your bike;
3) penalties for some violations are very harsh; IIRC you can lose you license for six months for passing in a no passing zone (before you say that that sounds reasonable, you have to see all of the wide-open stretches of road in Russia which are no-passing zones).

all in all, it is a system designed to encourage drivers to settle things on the spot one way or another.

things are changing here, however, and I expect that pretty soon motorists will be able to instantly pay traffic fines from the roadside via mobile phone, and that will be a real game-changer.

In the meantime, as Colebatch says, it is just not common any more to be asked for a bribe in Russia if you haven't done anything wrong. In fact, in the last five years or so, I'm not sure it has happened to me even once. Therefore, if you are flashing cash every time you get pulled over in Russia you're certainly doing something wrong.

Well i think that is a pretty bold statement to make, if i feel a bride is needed i will pay it.

On one border crossing they started to strip my bags to check and at the top i had a pair of wrist protectors i never used and the guy searching was a big body builder type guy and thought they where for weight training and as i did not use them i gave them to him and he let me go saving me pulling all my crap out my bags and repacking

In another country at 3am i was riding well over the speed limit breaking the law and the police officer who pulled me over was right in doing so, i was in the wrong so instead of going into all the paper work a bride worked find. i was tired and just wanted to move on, he was happy and i was happy

I got to another border and i lost some paper work, this was sorted out quickly also.

If i break the law or i am missing some paperwork then why not? i am the one in the wrong so if i feel i need to sort this out quicker then i will

And as for getting pulled over just to get money of me i think it all depends how you act? i have so far traveled though 17 countries on my bike including the ones where these apparent harassing for money takes places. i think a firm handshake and smile does a lot and then i usually just stay awhile to shoot the shit.i was even drinking beer (one may i add) with the police after stopping to ask for directions.

Interesting thread.

I have worked extensively throughout Africa including that hotbed of corruption known as LAGOS (Nigeria). I have also survived the violent riot and rush of boarding the Lagos to London flight on many occasions. :(

I worked at the UK High Commission in Lagos and was a serving/warranted UK (Met) senior police officer.

In nearly 4 years of working in Lagos I never (not once) paid any OFFICIAL a bribe. That included the corrupt police force which has the annoying habit of placing roadblocks every few hundred yards on major highways.

My tactic was to plain REFUSE to pay. I used to ask to see their superior officer and this normally had the desired effect. If middle management were also corrupt, I would demand to see senior management.

I have had pistols & AK47's pointed at my head and have STILL refused to pay. doh

I admit to using my police warrant card / diplomatic passport a few times but this counted for almost nothing outside the UK.

The reason I refused to pay bribes in Lagos is simple - If I pay the bribe, I am doing all who pass after me a dis-service.

These thieves dressed in a uniform do NOT deserve a bribe. They are a shambles and a disgrace to their country.

That is not to say I haven't voluntarily paid locals to expedite a normally lengthy process. By this I mean use their local knowledge and experience to cut through laws and customs I'm not familiar with. I don't consider this to be a bribe because I am electing to use a service without coercion.

What I do object to is being held up at gun point or not being allowed to get on my way without first paying someone who has already been paid to do their job.

That all said, I have traveled through some borders where the border police get their wage from fleecing travelers.... In these instances I have had to relent.

I just hate being threatened. :helpsmilie:

Remember these thugs in uniform often treat innocent local people in exactly the same way. The local people are often just as pissed off with this bribery as you are! :nono:

I guess we all deal with subject the best we can. If you come away from a dangerous situation with you're life, then I suppose you dealt with it in the best way you could....

Only give a bribe if it's absolutely necessary and always try to resist (within reason).

Bribe
 

It is funny how people get mad when you use the term bribe , I travelled in many places around the globe and many times I have been ask to pay a fine "on the spot " I did pay some and refused many but when the situation get really bad and you are taking the risk to see your bike taken I cannot see why not paying a little fee to an underpaid policeman. In Africa this use to be pretty much necessary if you wanted to continue travelling in some cases , but more often if you are kind enough they will let you go . If I happen to speed or break any driving law while travelling I still try to get away with it but at the end I will avoid problems with official and pay the fine . A friend of mine argue too much with corrupt cops and end up sleeping in jail and still paying a fine .I noticed that faking not speaking the language works very well as they get tired of you very quickly. We all pay bribes , some are legal some are not that is my point of view ( just check some of the cost to enter or exit some countries or the difference between what a local pay for food and what you pay , its all normal to me)

There is a difference between paying someone to expedite a lengthy procedure and having a gun pointed at your head!

If you break one of their laws it's appropriate to pay a fixed fine. I don't see this as bribery at all it's natural JUSTICE.

Another aspect to this conversation is the fact that sometimes the amount of money being demanded / asked for is extremely small for Westerners. Personally I don't begrudge paying someone a bit over the odds just because I'm a (rich) Westerner. Often if you work it out you're only talking about a few miserly pence! :(

There is a HUGE difference between someone asking and an official demanding it and threatening to not complete his job role.

Although I never paid a bribe in Lagos, I often helped those less fortunate when it was right to do so....

It's a great pity that the New World Order (NWO) (capitalism) allows this situation to happen in the third world still.

I have found that the often dirt poor local people get the same treatment from these jumped up Nazis. The uniformed morons don't realise they are standing on top of the SAME pile of shit. dohdohdoh

I have found it's always the innocent dirt poor people who help out when you most need it....