Two Wheels Only magazine want to buy your story
 

Hi
I'm the features editor for Two Wheels Only magazine. We have a great travel section in the magazine called 'Passport and Panniers'. In the past I've written about bike journeys through Libya, Bosnia and all over Europe. Each member of the editorial team has been on a bike based journey somewhere cool and we pride ourselves on the fantastic stories we bring home. We're looking for more adventures to use in the pages of TWO. If you have a tale to tell (and hi res images to back it up), we want to hear from you. We'll pay £150 if your story is published. If you're interested please email a brief (150 word) outline of your journey and attach some lo res images to Hogan@two.tv
Thanks very much
John

Costs
 

Hi, I just have to say that a short trip that I did lately cost more than that for fuel. I hope no-one takes this up as it is way too little. Infact this is a golden opportunity for HUBBers to negotiate a reasonable rate. How come I was offered £1,000 for an article 18 months ago? I was too slow to get on the road. Now I'm expected to contribute £500 to £800 for TWO to get an article. Linzi.

Depends how you look at it, if it's just a bit of exposure an first experience of writing why not? Or if you got some freebies out of people then again, why not it means they get a bit more exposure.

See if they'd commision me in advance, then I'd be up for doing it for that amount just cos I could tell potential sponsors and leverage more out of them.

Rates vary widely from publication to publication. I might actually give this a go. £150 would pay half the cost of my MOT!

Roughly how many words are you looking at for the completed article John?

Matt :)

Always a difficult one this
 

This one may run and run.................

I briefly freelanced as a writer for various EMAP motorcycle publications in the early 1990s (15 years ago) and have here on my desk an invoice to EMAP (which has been paid !) for £1400 for a 1200 word story (and I didn't even do the photos !)

A professional writer and or photographer would piss themselves laughing at rates like this.

If I want to read amateurs stories of traveling round the world I would go on the Hubb/Advrider and enjoy the experience very much, and I do just that.

If I want awesome, inspiring photography, and mind bending words, I am happy to pay a premium, maybe for National Geographic or some of the European travel mags. Magazines should be investing in professionals and excellence, otherwise they become no different to the Internet. In fact, a great story with great pictures displayed here and on Advrider will get thousands and thousands of readers

In the UK, newspapers (and the BBC in particular) are going crazy for citizen journalism and photography. Tell us your story blah blah blah, send us your photos blah blah blah, we can't be bothered to commission professionals and pay proper rates

Publishers have for a long time made absolutely no investments in editorial work, regional newspapers have been the very worst example and their demise has been spectacular.

I can of course,see the attraction of having your story printed in a national magazine but selling it for £150 so that the publisher can make money from it is absolutely nuts, completely nuts.

And be very careful to check any issues with regard to syndication, copyright and so on. I have no experience of TWO and make absolutely no comment on them, but a great many publishers who seeks contributions from citizen journalists then go on to syndicate the work to other publishers and make substantial profits from it. Check the terms and conditions very carefully.

These are not the ramblings of an embittered freelance, I'm a staff photographer earning a decent living shooting international, top spec sports :thumbup1:
Equally, I'm not saying that there aren't some very very talented writers and snappers out there who don't normally make their living from words and pics. But if your stuff is good enough to be published in a profitable, national magazine that takes big adverts and wants to position itself as a brand leader, please please please don't give it away for an utterly dismal 150 quid.

Don't devalue yourselves ; don't devalue the intelligence, creativity, effort, perspiration and the ambitious, open mind that got you into (and out of) the situation that makes your story an asset to a profit making company.

£750 should be the absolute minimum, especially for words AND pictures.

Well put indeed.
 

You put that very well. You are absolutely correct to separate magazine articles from online accounts. The trouble is the editors seem to want to dumb down their editions, saving money in the short term. I think Bike magazine will already be seeing sales drop after their change of direction and loss of their then excellent editor. (Who's now at MCN!) I shall endeavour to get top notch material and offer it to a few, selected editors at top rates or they can't have it. Thanks for showing me that the original amount I was offered was realistic. The offer was for "excellent words and pics". 'nuff said. Linzi.

Yep - just like the obsession with reality television eh? - get the gormons to entertain us, rather than proper actors (and script writers)...

To be fair to TWO - they haven't said how many words they want - is the feature a bit of fluff (like BIKE used to do over a page or two, a few hundred words and picture heavy), or are they looking for 2000+ish words over say 4-5 pages...?

If so, you are completely correct that 150GBP is insulting, even an amateur - after all, if it's good enough to put on their page, its good enough to pay a fair rate...

Perhaps 750GBP is a touch high? but for a full feature I would expect the minimum of 100GBP per A4 page...

xxx

TWO Magazine are the owners of Visordown - Motorbike Reviews | Motorbike News | Motorcycle Forums..

They dumbed down, over commercialised and ripped the soul out that once great forum so I can't even start to think what they will do to your treasured tales and pictures... You ever read TWO ?? Its written for retards.

Your story will probably be rewritten and dumbed down for the skin headed R6 riding weekend heros who buy the magazine so don't come back whining then they edit you out of your favourite shots and replace you with Ewan Mcgreggor lookalike and your bike has been turned into 1200GS with TWO stickers all over it.. :rolleyes2:

Then of course there will be the editing where your great experiences of meeting indigenous locals will be replaced with the tale of you dodging genades and bullets by those scary people who arnt white skinned !

But hey, £150 is £150 quid... Its a chain and sprocket set in exchange for your soul :cool4:

Now you have gone too far.:nono:

"1200GS with a chain and sprocket"

A soul is worth the cost of a rear drive.:eek3:

lol, yer I know its a shafty.....

But your right, BMW really would take your soul if you let them ;)

I write for free though!
 

The thing is over at Bikechatforums.com I do writeups for free and so does everybody else at the BCF much like the HUBB where riders reports of the road out there is done for free , or as I like to think of it as sort of repayment for the help and advice that is given out by HUBBers.

In that HUBBers and BCFers can live my experience vicariously and perhaps be inspired to have their own adventure.

TWO's £150 offer is fairly insulting a jaunt down to Spain cost me nearly £1500, my trip across Russia later this year via the Stans will cost me upwards of £3-5K probably more.

I suppose many people will get sucked into this due to the look at me appearing in print type reasoning, but I suppose there are better methods about this as Motosyberia manage to get a fair bit of sponsorship in return for reports / blogs / DVDs printed out.

Oh and btw bikechatforums destroyed visordown pretty much when VD sold out to TWO BCF took up all the refugees.

On a related comment , we recently had a discussion on BCF about how the BCF was destroying paper magazines due to the interactivity and stuff you don't find in traditional bike magazines.

Excellence
 

Fair enough, but you have to realize that your own grammar, lack of it actually, renders your writing valueless anyway. No editor would bother to take the time needed to decode your writing. I needed to read your post four times to get the meaning. There is good money for quality work. Linzi.

Do I detect Journalists fearing for their jobs? All those expense accounts and freebies disapearing down the tubes? I'm sorry, I have very little sympathy having dealt with newspaper types who want you to write the article for them (past life working in the truck industry). Get this months street fighter magazine and you'll see an article on the Dragon Rally. It's copied and pasted from a website by a so called professional journalist who was supposed to give credit to the real writer but forgot. This publication at least has the decency to own up and should be printing a correction.

I've got news for you; print journalism is dead. No one employs typists anymore, spell checker put them out of work in the '90's. Everyone else in the world says what they want to say directly, it avoids misinterpretation. The last fling for bits of paper has to be pieces from the internet, it's the only efficient way. A pound a word explains why a magazine is £3.20 and I'm sorry, I simply won't pay that. MCN is now £1.90!

As for "quality", have you read anything by Jeremy Clarkson? He can cut and paste his own articles, they are all the same!

So, here's a dare. Direct us to two recently published articles, one by a journo and one by Joe public. See who can actually spot the "quality".

I think £150 for something you'd write up on here for free is a great deal and very honest of TWO not to simply C&P it.

Andy

I´ve written mostly travel-related stuff into a mc-magazine in Finland from 1995 onwards. Here the whole business is much, much smaller, but I still would not sell a whole story, with photos, for 150 pounds (which is maybe about 200 euros).

This is because good-quality work cannot be done properly for that cheap. I paid over 2000 euros for the SLR camera body only, and over double that to have all my photo gear. The photos from that system do beat the hell out of any pocket-size cameras (and naturally it depends on who´s shooting them, too, that´s just one important part of your know-how), and sure you could get 90% of that quality with a much smaller investment. I want to get that last 10% into my work, because it may be the difference, that´ll make it feel like something special.

I´ve never done this full-time, its always been more like just a hobby-based extra, but I do take it seriously, and wouldnt want some company to make money out of it, and paying very little in return. Everyone knows travelling costs serious money these days, and these magazines arent doing what they do for charity, either, so why should the writers.

Just my 0.02 cents...

Mags
 

Andy, a lot of what you say I concur with, because I said in my original post that magazines make little or no investment in editorial work and your musings confirm that.

The only way that a small number of magazines and newspapers will survive is by providing excellence and in so doing, differentiate themselves from the vast majority of t'internet.

I can absolutely guarantee that there is a world of difference between somebody who does a trip with the intention of writing about it and photographing it, and somebody who , as an afterthought, digs out some snaps from a trip, tries to remember who/what/where/when and flogs it to a magazine for 150 quid. It takes a lot of effort to get it to look brilliant, often to the detriment of enjoying the moment.

It's piss poor business planning (and insulting to the punters) for TWO to think that this approach is good for the longitivity of their industry.

Two things will always survive in business - excellence for which customers are prepared like Rolls Royce (ie National Geographic Magazine in publishing) and cheap and cheerful stuff that you aren't prepared to pay much for, like McDonalds (and the internet in publishing)

Why pay a premium for a magazine that is sourcing editorial work so cheaply

We went through all this about a year ago on HU (in The Bar was it?) with what also transpired to be the same 'P&P' appeal from TWO for travel yarns.

That time the guy initially didn't say who he or the mag were and payment was zero. Rightly he got flamed to a crisp and eventually was shamed into putting his cards on the table and even an offer of a helmet for yarns. It looked to me like a stirring example of HU people power!

I can't stomach bike mags any more (I tried TWO for a bit) but at least this time they are up front and offering money. I wonder if people aren't taking themselves a bit too seriously. We can all write entire books on the internet but the printed word still has kudos and the discipline of writing well even for a crap mag can be satisfying.

I offer a lot less for yarns in my AMHs but put in the work tracking down good stories online and shuffling them into shape if need be. No one complains and many are even chuffed to be asked. Online appeals rarely work, IME. I suspect getting offered a grand as a first time/unknown/unproven author is pretty rare. You need some talent, great pictures or a sh t-hot tale. I don't think I've ever managed the hat trick!

Due to the internet and websites like this, magazines and certainly mainstream travel publishing are desperate straits and the cost-cutting is ever-more blatant. I get the impression bike mag staffers are squeezed dry to cover all the work. Not all of it very well. I remember JH's yarn on 'Libya': he flew into Tripoli, scored some clapped out Jap cruiser for 2 days and made some Ghadaffi jokes. Is it any wonder mag sales are declining?

AFAICT 3-4 page, no-name travel yarns of the sort I read in the 80s are rare these days. Too expensive and too unpredictable in content unless you're a regular and reliable freelancer in favour with the current editor. But how do you start?

So IMO, don't scoff too much at 150 quid for a few hours work and 15 mins of fame. Just make every word count.

Chris S

It takes a lot of effort to get it to look brilliant, often to the detriment of enjoying the moment.

How true this is!

Yep
 

Indeed Sir, and should be properly recompensed


I can still picture in my mind a "top to bottom" of Africa trip report,featured in Bike over 5 or 6 pages from the mid 80s' written I think by a German chap. I'm sure others remember it.

It got me started on a life of travel without a proper job :mchappy:

Was that directed at myself?.

When writing my epic tales on BCF it takes me days if not weeks to recant my tales. I often sift through my memory and type out a wodge of text , I then go back and clean it up and go do something for a few days and come back to clean it up again.


Only then do I post it for all and sunder of BCF to see I can write very very well, but the issue is that when I do it comes across in a very snooty manner and people don't like it an article I wrote once for money came across as a university dissertation which was perhaps influenced by the fact that I had just finished my university dissertation .

The BCF say my writing style is very informal and almost colloqual in its tone as if I was sat in the corner of a pub recanting my trip to them, people there like this style and as said I do not make a career out of it either.

Does anybody remember the travel story called poor circulation by Alan Kelly?.

In that there is this small magazine which is printed in the UK which is free (and consequently chock full of adverts and can only be collected at very limited outlets) every 2 weeks. And featured his trip bit by bit, it spanned 9 months worth.

I believe he donated all proceeds to a hospice.

eats, shoots & leaves
 

Was that directed at myself?.

It was a bit harsh, a.

Don't know about grammar but you do follow it with a 70-word sentence with only one comma which makes it hard to comprehend in one pass. A line like that requires breathing apparatus!

Ch

I offer a lot less for yarns in my AMHs but put in the work tracking down good stories online and shuffling them into shape if need be. No one complains and many are even chuffed to be asked. Online appeals rarely work, IME. I suspect getting offered a grand as a first time/unknown/unproven author is pretty rare. You need some talent, great pictures or a sh t-hot tale. I don't think I've ever managed the hat trick!

Bl**dy too right Chris. I contributed to the 3rd edition of AMH (Bombay Express) You have no idea how thrilled I was when you asked if I would like to contribute to your book. I'm no writer, did not have a university education, i'm just an ordinary working class bloke. To see my story published was one of the proudest moments ever and I thank you for that.

Meant to add, if you are doing another adition of AMH, let us know and i'll send you my UK to Timbuktu story.

And print journalist wonder why there profession is dying. Ask a stock photographer why stock photos have gone to hell.
Pay crap get a hack and hope? Wont work, never has never will.

How bout you go on a ride with some of the people from HU go do the Americas then do the story on the road. Its cheap you will get the photos and the story.

A few hours work? Yesterday I spent 45 minutes writing one SINGLE sentence... and then I deleted it!!! Sigh. True story.

Fortunately, most days are better than that, but still, if I'd divide my writing income by hours spent writing, I'd be very depressed. That said, Chris is right, getting published is not just about the money (at first... Once you've been published a few times, then it's about the money :clap:).

TWO is offering a neat opportunity here; but remember, they will only pay IF your piece is picked up. Don't assume that when you submit a story they will mail you a check. You'll have to compete with dozens, hundreds, perhaps thousands of entries, which is where the prestige of it all comes in. It's easy to write a journal about your trip, but it's difficult to write it in such a way that people will pay to read it.

That's where Linzi has a good point. Quality matters. If you're a professional writer, you had better be good. If you are, then 150 quid is an insult. (Although, if you're a pro, you've also got a bunch of irons in the fire. An article that takes you days to write gets quickly reworked just enough to sell to other publications :innocent:.)

Speaking of quality, many of you are complaining that the mags are declining in this area due to pleas to us punters here on the NET. OK, but remember, TWO is not asking us at the HUBB to produce their entire rag. They are opening up one little SECTION of their publication for new talent. They're cheaping out on the fee, but maybe they discover someone that they can use in the future to both parties mutual satisfaction.

At any rate, I have to go. I need to bang my head against the computer for a while. My goal is to write three good sentences in the next hour.

Assuming one is not a professional writer, I think it's a good opportunity... for the aspiring writer (often more well known publications require past publishing experience) or the "it'd be cool to have my story published" folks. Especially considering most of us may be used to having to pay others to listen to our tales. :)

All of you who are insulted by TWO's offer should read the sentence above. Like it or not, the fact is that there are plenty of people who would submit stories for free, so whining about not getting 1000 GBP for your brilliant piece of professional writing is pretty much pointless. As for quality, do you really think people buy TWO magazine for the brilliant adventure travel writing? (I've never seen the magazine, but I seriously doubt it...). It is not National Geographic for chrissake.

The bottom line is if TWO can get adequate quality for their needs for 150 GBP (or less), why should they pay you more??

I understand what those who already get paid for writing mean, after all who wants to see the market value of their creative outpourings drop quicker than a high street bank's share prices, but you're in the privileged position of already having been published, and of already having a nice contacts book.

For those of us who have never been published, the thought of getting a little monetary recompense for something we might otherwise have offered for free is enticing, and should we be published we can then add our meagre outpourings to our fledgling portfolio, and perhaps in future we'll get picked up by someone bigger, or with a bigger budget.

Mind you, I'm not convinced at the 100's and 1000's we have to compete with. If this is the second appeal in a year it doesn't suggest hundreds of articles are spilling into TWO's inbox.

Perhaps you're right. I don't know how many submissions they get, but larger mags are inundated with queries. Usually, even submitting a proposal is hard. There's a protocol to it - an unwritten protocol - involving catch phrases embedded within your e-mail to the editor and scripted responses to his reply, etc. These guys at TWO seem to have dispensed with that to a degree.

Anyway, I don't think anyone is really offended at TWO's proposal. Career writers won't submit their stuff in response to the post - or if they do they will know how to properly negotiate a better rate. Those who don't write to eat, they may submit... and they may be surprised, too, at how difficult it is to get paid even with an invitation! Who knows?

I have a friend whose hobby it is to collect rejection letters. Interesting approach to the profession... but he's trying! (I'm proud to say that I've collected rejection letters from some very important people myself!)

:rofl:, you and every other bike mag journo as manufacturers don't do "pre-biking season" press launches for the latest 600cc sportsbike in the UK. An all expenses paid weekend riding the latest ZXCBXR600 in South Africa is about as convincing as another MCN exclusive.

Synical I know but...
 

Read it as: Bike based* Journey** Somewhere *** Cool****

* The bike manufacturer had a bar at the press launch

** We had to walk from the taxi to get there

*** We can't remember where it was exactly

**** There was ice in the drinks

Sorry, shouldn't take the whatsit :rofl:

What I want to know is, if the mags find every bike so wonderful how come I can find the duffers and I'm not a professional in the field?

Andy

Bike mags are really scared of upsetting the big advertisers and thus all bikes are good just that some are 'marginally' better than others.

That's why Honda win every group test the mags do. If it isn't the best bike, they'll dream up some contrived excuse as to why it's the bike you should buy.

Video: Yamaha R1 v Honda Fireblade v Suzuki GSX-R1000 v Ducati 1198 v Kawasaki ZX-10R - Motorcycle News,

Listen to the excuses from about 3:30 onwards in the video. I reckon the overall result that they'll print in the mag is that you should buy the 'blade because it's the best on real roads and the R1 too track focused, due to lack of engine braking. At the very worst, the Fireblade will come 2nd overall even though it was 2nd last (out of 5) on this test.

Also, has anyone else noticed that both the big glossy bike mags and MCN are using the same "hired guns" to track test bikes? (I bet they get more than £150.) Now they want HU members to write articles for them! Do these guys actually do anything themselves that's worth paying for?

Strikes me as a sort of lottery. You do the ride and write up as you'd do anyway and post to TWO. If they use it you win £150, the Hamster or whoever has to rethink his latest 600cc group test/fawning appreciation of plastic missile that'll rust in a fortnight and the mag's publishers might get the idea that they should be thinking about facts not advertising. I dare TWO to publish the first report they recieve where the bike throws it's toys out of the pram just past Calais :innocent:

I was bored last week, stuck on a motorway services due to a cancelled meeting. I spent £1.90 on MCN. I went cover to cover in under 20 minutes. The only articles of interest were the new Norton and a bit about two-stoke technology. Both were so shallow and lacking in detail you have to wonder what was going on. OK, Norton can't tell you how much the new bike will cost, but they should be pressed far enough to say if Joe public should wait or buy a Triumph now, especially when you put pictures and little comments about three other bikes. Finding ways to sneak in Norton advertising with lines like "Whose brake levers will you be using", "Oh, we only buy high quality from...." was just feeble. If Norton won't talk boys, they get two column inches on page 5 saying there'll be info in a few week. If Honda exclude you from the next press launch for not been nice, that's the story you publish, they've obviously got something to hide. "New MCN" is just Old MCN with fewer references to getting your knee down. :rolleyes2:

Andy

heh I felt the same way with MCN last year when I was trapped on the Santander ferry for 22 hours, went and bought one about the new VFR and the history of , not a single article caught my eye.

This discussion has a lot in common with this one http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...articles-38717

This is one of my favorites (repost), there is a lot of good points here
YouTube - Harlan Ellison -- Pay the Writer

Great rant by Harlan - whoever he is.

That's how it works these days, and not just publishing.

Like H says, they may pay you after 6 months hassle then don't even send you a copy of a publication! That is why I don't bother with mags these days, esp the UK - unless they ask.

Scanned though that other thread to but it got bogged down in camera tech. The idea of a freelancer fluttering from mag to mag like a hummingbird selliing their wares is a myth. You need to study the market and know your publication intimately, know they very language they use. Does UK Bike run 5-page spread on trans-Af? Not for 25 years last time I looked unless you're a celeb so don't even bother. But if you get a foot in the door you can offer other ideas. That's what I meant by 'being in favour with the editor' earlier on. When they move on, as they so often do these days, you may have to start again. Fortune favours the pushy and hard [net]working. No news there.

My experience is that the mag/editorial scene in the US is more professional than the UK. I've even had NG ringing me up from New York fact checking an article. It's commonplace out there - can you imagine it in the UK!?

There's another factor worth mentioning. I suspect that getting published (and sponsored/noticed for that matter) in non-Anglo countries (especially Europe) is much easier because 'you're a bigger fish in a small bowl' and they like to see/support plucky locals do their stuff instead of more foreign/Anglo content.

Ch

My impression is that most people are open to good ideas, but you need to present them in a professional way. You need something to grab their attention, photos are one way…

That’s true – and not.
There is also less money in a smaller bowl but it’s true that a lot of magazines like articles written by someone from the same country.
In Norway there are only two magazines and one of them is not willing to pay so the small bowl is filled with even smaller fish.

On the other hand some magazines are represented in multiple countries. They share a pool of articles/information they can use and this makes the bowl bigger but the cost of translation is added.

A slightly differnt point of view
 

I Admit I know nothing about publishing in UK bike mags.

As some of you may know I am a scientist and our career value is based on publishing. You may have heard “publish or perish”. It is very true. I bring this up only to draw a (scary) comparison.

Many years ago, “Journals” (the boffin word for magazine) used to pay honorariums, many scientist used these to fund their work. Over time, the honorariums got less and less. By the time, I started my career if was no payment at all, but at least the editors/ journals did some editing (text, vocabulary, page formatting, fact checking…) although they were still reviewed by “experts in the field”.

Very soon after I started my career, the journals stop editing for anything but page formatting, although there was strict “guidelines” how the paper should be laid out in the first place. So at this point, most journals get a “perfect” article for free, that they only need to page format.

Today there is a large number of journals that even make the authors do the page-formatting (you are sent a template and have to shoe horn your article in). To exacerbate things there is a growing number or journals that are even charging for submission and another charge for printing per page per photo/image/graph. THEY STILL CHARGE TO READ IT. Yes they get paid twice.

At the rate the stock images are being produced and sold at cheep prices, the rate that websites like Facebook and Google’s picasa are claiming copy-write for both text and images, and finally the way I read things in this post. I can see in a few years no one will get paid at all or will have to pay for the right to publish.

Most of use have read and use Chris’s AMH, if he had to pay for it to get published he may not have done it and we will all lose out.

My suggestion FIGHT IT NOW. Don’t publish for free. Don’t let the 15seconds of fame kill the next generation. Stand up for your value. If you are donating your work to something make sure that some one else is not getting paid for it. If they get paid so should you.

Some interesting replies.
The offer of £150 for a story is an amount I have been given to offer, not what I would view as enough to cover anyones expenses but that wasn't the point. If you think you're story is worth more than that, and it probably is, then good for you and best of luck trying to get it published.
One thing I don't understand is everyones assumption that we (bike journo's) don't travel as well as anyone else. Before I worked at TWO I was in the army for ten years. Travel and adventure is something that appealed to me, as was writing, so I took a gamble and pushed to get into the industry. Now that I'm in it I find that I have to suffer the wrath of people that assume, because I'm fortunate enough (through luck and hard work) to wear fancy kit and ride shiny bikes that I'm incapable of having a 'real adventure', what a crock of shit. If you don't like the idea of being published because the offer of money isn't high enough, fine, thanks for taking a look. But don't assume all mags and all journo's are the same, I posted on here thinking I would get some educated responses and because I thought this could be a good chance to get some great stories in TWO. Thanks to those that have responded already.

I have a completely different view. First, most of the publishing industry is being crushed by forces unleashed the internet. Newspapers closing, magazines going out of business or moving to online-only (ie, no print) versions. Many of them don't pay more because they can't. Like it or not, it is simply a fact of life.

Second, if there were a magazine that I thought highly of, I would gladly spend some time to create and contribute an article/photos to share with other readers, even if unpaid--I don't see how this is different from contributing posts here, or ride reports to somewhere like ADVRider.com. On the other hand, I wouldn't do so just for the "15 seconds of fame" if I didn't think much of the magazine. I'm not standing up for my value because this isn't my job, its hobby, so doesn't have any real value to me.

Third, you say that if authors have to pay to publish there will be much less interesting material published. In fact, it is now easier and cheaper than ever for authors to print and distribute their own materials (either via "print on demand" or digitally), cutting out publishers altogether. In a niche market like motorcycle adventure travel, I think we should expect to see much more (self) published, rather than less, as I think that very few authors (including Chris) currently have a chance of convincing publishers to print their works; if people can self-publish it will give an opportunity to a much broader circle of potential authors, even though the resulting quality will be uneven.

I think people are missing the point somewhat. John is offering £150 to non-proffesional writers. I expect the article will be introduced along the lines of "TWO reader Joe Public went to x and did y, here he tells us all about it..." I could be wrong about this of course, but I don't think this is intended as a direct replacement for a proffesionally written article.

I'd make a couple of points:

A lot of people write up their stories for free on websites like this. Suggesting that making a few quid out of selling it to a mag is tantamount to selling your soul is a lot of pish. Who knows, you might inspire some poor desk bound biker to jack it all in and take a trip.

It's all very well saying "You should be getting x amount for articles and pictures". A few years ago I tried selling words and pix as a freelancer to outdoor mags and, because I had no experience, no one wanted to know. Some editors were downright rude. Far easier to get their staff writer to write some vapid nonsense on the 'Top Gear' model. Getting just this kind of experience could be the way in for young writers who want to turn pro.*

The fact the magazine trade is going down the tubes just makes me laugh. It's entirely a result of the poor quality and unimaginative nature of the contents. Most stories seem to be extended adverts for travel companies who've offered freebies. Perhaps getting in ordinary riders, who have no agendas, have recieved no freebies, have ridden REAL journeys, then getting them to tell their stories, will inject much needed originality into the world of magazine journalism.

Before you criticise this guy too roundly, think about what makes most bike mags so uninteresting. Essentially they seem (to me) to be an endless, childish round of superbike test rides. This guys is trying to put REAL rider tales from around the world in his mag. OK, he's not got to finance anyones next RTW, but it's a start, right?

*In the end I sold some stuff to a snowboard mag - earned a few hundred quid and a trip to Austria. Even if you don't make a living out of it, the results can be fun!

Matt :)


PS- The 'fifteen minutes of fame' thing seems to be being sneered at pretty heavily by some of the people here. What's so wrong with that? I challenge any writer to say with absolute truth that seeing their work in print for the first time wasn't the thrill of a lifetime. If you can say that, what the hell are you writing for?

Nice point!
I think most mags are boring because the writers are not good enough. Sadly the more people that work for free (or almost free) the harder it will be to get paid for the professionals.
The mags will be filled with amateur-stuff, and why should we pay for it? We can read that stuff free on internet.

I see what you're saying, however, Bike Mags (and travel and outdoor mags) currently seem to be written, almost exclusively, by professional writers (willing to be corrected on this point) and are almost universally toss. How does maintaining the status quo improve things?

Matt :)

Some professionals are good, other are not. If the good ones are not satisfied they will move on.
I know a few people that used to write a lot (freelance) but most of them stopped, it doesn’t pay enough.
Did you see the video-clip I posted?

It doesn’t, nor does it help to make it worse for the professionals.

My point isn’t to try to stop people from writing, but you should get paid for it.

Matt: Well Said Sir!

I don't employ a Chauffer, a candle maker, a lamp lighter, a skullery maid, a **** boy, a chimney sweep or a host of other people I might have found vital in the 18th or 19th centuries. Their jobs have been replaced by a combination of technology (vehicles with automated mixture control, electric light, vacuum cleaners, flush toilets, gas central heating etc.) and DIY.

In the information age, publishing has to change. You can't publish a million (expensive paper) copies of a one size fits all article and expect to sell them when the competition is the WWW that somewhere includes the exact subject I choose to read that day. The audience has come to expect more as well as (perhaps) the quality falling.

Find a way for the "quality" writer to edit the stuff produced by millions writing from first hand knowledge and you've maybe got a product that sells. (Maybe there is some way to detect bad grammer or fifty word sentences without punctuation?). Otherwise I'm betting the amateurs are here long after the professionals give up the ghost at least for disposable media (books are different).

In terms of payment, something like MCN is incredably poor value. £1.90 for fifteen minutes rummaging and five minutes unsatisfactory reading. The net isn't free, but even at 50p for a mobile connection is cheaper than MCN and will bring me to some article of better content. Again, invent a searchable, high quality, variable content, mobile source employing your high quality writers and I think you'll have a product you could maybe get an few extra pence for. If these few pence can support writers only turning out a few articles a week, I'd doubt. Maybe the porn sites lead the way, or do most pervs stick to the free ones for that too?

Andy

Quote:

Originally Posted by motoreiter (Post 233461) I have a completely different view. First, most of the publishing industry is being crushed by forces unleashed the internet. Newspapers closing, magazines going out of business or moving to online-only (ie, no print) versions. Many of them don't pay more because they can't. Like it or not, it is simply a fact of life.

I agree, never said anything about this.I am not a writer I am a boffin, I simply saw parallels and can see where it could go. We boffins have little choice, if we dont publish we dont get grants, no grants, No job, no publications... around and around.. if we have to pay we have to pay.. the rest of the world has not hit this yet...

Quote:

Originally Posted by motoreiter (Post 233461) Second, if there were a magazine that I thought highly of, I would gladly spend some time to create and contribute an article/photos to share with other readers, even if unpaid--I don't see how this is different from contributing posts here, or ride reports to somewhere like ADVRider.com. On the other hand, I wouldn't do so just for the "15 seconds of fame" if I didn't think much of the magazine.

The difference between "publishing your "articles" to the HUBB or ADV or your blog, they dont charge to read em. so it is free for free. I dont know about ADV: But Grant barely makes ends meet on the HUBB he makes his living from the meets, paid talks and DVDs.

FREE for FREE is fine by me and I do it. It is wrong when it is a free article for the publisher who then charge someone else to read it and thereby making money from my work without fair compensation.


Your words and pics are a commodity, a product. You would not give your engine to some one so they could make money from it and not give you a cent would you? There is no difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by motoreiter (Post 233461) I'm not standing up for my value because this isn't my job, its hobby, so doesn't have any real value to me.

..I never said that £150 is good or bad. just dont give your product a way for free to someone who sells it... I also never said dont send this guy a story.. only dont do it for free. Always remember publishers are making money out of you (both as the writer and a punter).

Quote:

Originally Posted by motoreiter (Post 233461) Third, you say that if authors have to pay to publish there will be much less interesting material published. In fact, it is now easier and cheaper than ever for authors to print and distribute their own materials (either via "print on demand" or digitally), cutting out publishers altogether. In a niche market like motorcycle adventure travel, I think we should expect to see much more (self) published, rather than less, as I think that very few authors (including Chris) currently have a chance of convincing publishers to print their works; if people can self-publish it will give an opportunity to a much broader circle of potential authors, even though the resulting quality will be uneven.

Actually i never said this either. Only that if publishing was a pay-to-publish service only (where one would never see any returns) many authors will not bother. It is thier job and they live on the associated income. It is us (readers) who will lose the end. Self publishing is again a different story, you still own the rights and you could make money if you sell it. If you give your article to a magazine they (most often) retain copy-write and you can never make anything from it ever again.



Simple proof:

Chris Scott question: The next version of AMH; If you had to do it for free (e.g: never making any money) would you do it?

Our own Sam M. self published his first book (maybe more i dont know), and I think it was great and loved reading it, but he did sell them which means he got the money back and made some money (hopefully). HE DID NOT PUBLISH FOR FREE. He invested in himself. Massive difference to giving away your product. Print on demand and self publishing are not the same thing as giving your products away so someone else can make money.


If an professional author does not get paid or paid enough.. they get an other job that is all they can do.

The really funny thing is that this entire argument for me is completely academic as my oppion of bike mags is so low that even a 4-5 page spread of perfectly written and shot travel story is still not worth the cover price..So professional or £150 Joe's ride report.. I am still not going to buy the magazines.


Would I sell my story for £150? sure it is more then i have ever gotten for many published boffin papers. Will I send it to anyone that offers me more then that first? yup. Will I take out any photos that I think are worth more (I have been paid alot more for a single photo) before I send it to a lower ranking journal (as we call it in the boffin world)? yup.



My biggest point was i have seen this slope before and it goes only in one direction. The TWO guy was offering to pay (enough or not is up to you), I was simply saying dont sell out for less then you are worth and dont let any one make money off your back..PROTECT YOURSELVES, Dont let anyone take advantage of you.

Fair play to you if you can earn a good living from something you enjoy doing. I'd be interested if you did some write ups on your own bike travels. I think it was Superbike that used to have section of the mag devoted to the staff's own bikes which was more interesting than it sounds and good to see you lot having the same real world problems with bikes as the rest of us. I'd like to see the mags returning to running features like the YouTube link below but the way they seem to be under the thumb of their advertisers, that's not going to happen.

YouTube - MCN: Can a £1500 sportsbike beat a GSX-R1000 K6?

I'd buy a copy, maybe even subscribe. I bet Suzuki's PR staff were seriously p***ed off at the time.

Main problem with the mags is that they seem to have turned into little more than a marketing tool for manufacturers and there's nothing that any one of them does that makes it stand out from the others. New bike launched = all the mags run more or less the same feature. Is it any wonder that they're losing out to the internet?

I haven't bought a mag for months now but I did buy BIKE last week, to take to a mate in hospital. Unfortunately, his Dad had already bought him the same mag and all he said was, "There's not much in it really". To fill 160+ pages with "not much" takes some doing, especially if you're selling it for £3.99! Most interesting article in there was the trip to Italy in winter on a Ducati Monster. The pseudo-tech article on the cross-plane crank R1 was disappointing.

A good read
 

I thought this thread had legs, and it's a better read than some magazines

Although the TWO guy may personally have a great background, I stick to my original point that nothing in his professional approach is likely to make me want to fork out 4 or 5 quid for a magazine.

There are some great stories here and on Advrider (in fact 18,771 reports on Advrider) and nothing about asking around, offering 150 notes to people inspires me that the mag are likely to produce anything better.

I think that we buy more services nowadays then we ever have done – I think this is also valid for entertainment.

Yes, publishing has to change, it has to better – not worse.

Writing is more then grammar and spell-checking. But as it looks right now you are completely right that the amateurs will outlive the professionals. Is this the way we want it to be?

I don’t know MCN.
No the net is not free, and there are a few negative aspects if you only read web-based articles.

I have to agree with those who say that bike mags are poor value for money. I've given up buying them for this reason.

I know it must be difficult/impossible to please the whole variety of biking interests, but I've often found that the bit of the mag which interested me was not worth paying for if I had to buy loads of stuff about sports bikes and rampant consumerism. I got fed up with cliche laden writing like "grin factor", "loads of grunt", and also comparative bike tests which use a lot of words yet avoid saying anything which will annoy a manufacturer. The internet and sites like HU provide me with what I want ,for it's not market driven and is all about real people, real lives. I don't really know the US bike mag area, but Melissa Holbrook Pearson (that very fine writer) said that the least of UK bike mags was better than most US publications.

There is a German mag I wish I could read - "Touren Fahren" - but without that language I can't. There was that British bike travel mag which went under, perhaps because "Adventure Biking" is such a small niche in the UK - which has the smallest bike owning population in Western Europe. This might explain why bike mags offer so little for stories - the market just isnt there for more.

I think it's a good thing if some magazines don't survive, because they are market driven, and not customer driven.

good thread, this
 

they are market driven, and not customer driven...

In that case the sad old Brits can't get enough wet fish.
When I first saw the range of carp porn (below) in a local newsagent I thought it was some sort of joke.

That German TF mag is worth it just for the pix and maps. What a shame an English-language version can't be sustained.

I used to love US Dirt Bike and UK Bike in the early 80s and learned so much from them. Even MCN was good. Now there's nothing much in any of them for me and it's not all due to internet, probably getting older and knowing what you like.
I think the mags today are trying every trick in the book but times have changed.

Chris Scott question: The next version of AMH; If you had to do it for free (e.g: never making any money) would you do it?

You may think I am joking but effectively I don't - and yes I still will. I like the work but I make my bread and butter in Sahara and odd jobs. I suspect the big trip I'm doing for the next AMH will cost more than I ever make from that edition, but will be great for the book, may spin off other things and will be a brilliant adventure.

Ch

We all have a story and we have all told them for far less than you are offering. But you are asking to under cut the pros that make there living doing what you are asking. Read this it is about photos and is all about what you want.

Photo Business News & Forum: Professional Photographers vs. "Hobby" Status (i.e. Working for Free)


Mr. Scott is a pro e-mail him for a price on a story of his last trip.

My last little trip was $3,000 US. You are asking me to hand over the rights to copyrighted photos and text and reimbursing me only 10%.

Most Mags I have read I cant seen any difference from one to another any way.
The people I want to read about no one wants to wright about. The man on a 50cc bike riding the world. The people that ran a HD bagger around the wold. The kid that got on a bike and went to South America with $5,000 and a bag on the back. You want them to sell there story your going need more than $300.
You want stories that will make your rag THE riders mag you need to do a bit more than slap down the cash.
You may want to go to a Horizons Unlimited meeting and talk to some of the people face to face. See the man with more RTW on TWO wheels than any one else, hear the man that Drams of Jupiter talk to HD riders that have been to more places than most travel mags know.

As for you being you being a "real rider" I have no idea one way or the other. Real adventure? like what? I ride 10k to 20k a year on little trips most just to ride most on road most to places people have gone. To someone in the UK there real adventures to me its gust down the road. Ride in the UK to Spain now that is a real adventure... to me.
Your kit shinny and a clean bike is nothing I have washed my bike once a year and I clean my kit just as much as I need to. So we are even there. I have even seen a real world traveler we all know ride a bike shinny and new. So I dont know what you having one has to with you getting a story or not.

By the way if you look at the left in the tab "Events" click on "meetings" send in the money and go to one. UK Spring, 18-21 June 2009. Ripley is open and always good. You will get some stories photos and more contacts than this post will get you. But do it soon it will fill up.
Its not that we dont want to help you and some may even do a story or two for you. We are gust a bit off and like to poke at people now and then.

Harping
 

The most depressing thing about all this is that this is the RIDE REPORT forum and the only reason most of you have come here is too harp on about how you dislike magazines.
Instead of pissing and moaning about magazines why don,t you all show what you,re capable of by writing a report and posting some pics.
And before you start on me.My report will be on it,s way,but between opening a new pub aand getting a Rally together in Cartagena I find myself a bit busy!!!
Al thebarkingspider
Ps Mods move this whingefest to the bar.

Jesus
 

Jesus - I agree with Albert, must be time to leave the country!

Yawn. Booooorrrrrrriiinnnnng.

This above raises another issue related to publishing and money: I get the strong impression that many people imagine that writing is the way to fame and fortune. Well, there might be a little fame, but dosh? - I doubt it. Some time back I contributed to a Literary Critical journal - not for the little money, but to establish myself as one who could usefully write for peers. I also enjoyed it, and it sharpened me up in my field, knowing who the audience was. I think Xander did the same in his area.

Even if a book is published, the writer might care to check the number of hours against the payment, and work out the hourly rate. For most people except the J. K. Rowlings of this world and the journos of mainstream newspapers, the money isn't there. So CS's view, IMO, is the right one in a niche biking market; a book, maybe an article, is part of a whole, and not an end in itself (to say nothing of the off-road groupie "benefits in kind").

In an ideal world, money wouldn't enter into the writing debate at all; ideally we would write because we had something to say, which CS competently does. But we live in a cheapened society where money is usually the prime factor of motivation; we are all trapped in it to some degree, and one result is the financial chaos which we are all paying for - don't ever doubt it. Adam Smith and Karl Marx warned about this, a long time ago.

And no, this isn't off topic - it's at the heart of the issue.

PS I hear that one of those above-mentioned fishing magazines (Total Carp) is popular in Colombia, amazingly enough.:detective:

Once again!
 

Content of post deleted. No useful content. Albert: if you have something productive to add, feel free. Don't try to start another trolling session.
Chris, your friendly Mod (actually when I was a lad, I thought I was a Rocker)

After trying my hand at bike mag article writing (7 articles published in Motorcycle Sport and Leisure in the early 2000s) and one each in a Canadian and South African mag, all of which I was paid for, I decided not to bother any more. Putting it on a website costs me a lot of time and effort (that I give for free. The monetary cost is only 28 quid a year to host the site) and people can visit it for free. I have total editorial control and have a lot less grief.

The main reason for not submitting anymore to bike mags is: They now (usually) expect stuff for free (if they can charge money, why should I give them free content?) and particularly the sour taste left from my dealings with Motorcycle Sh*t and W*nk, then edited by Peter Henshaw and published by Dennis Hill: I had to chase them from ars*hole to breakfast time to ever get paid and to crown it all, they lost 60 of my best pictures (In the days before digital. My fault, I assumed they were well run...)

After the first time, the warm and moist feeling you get, seeing yourself in print, soon wears off. For warmness and moistness I can suggest top shelf mags.

I do read bike mags, but only ones I subscribe to: The UK's "TBM" (a genuinely well written publication, riding trail bikes helps in order to find it interesting) and the German "Motorrad Abenteuer" (= Motorcycle Adventure, published by the same outfit that does "Tourenfahrer"; speaking/reading German clearly helps here... for both? :innocent:)

I liked the rant by Harlan Ellison on the YouTube video.

Off to buy Total Cod
Chris

Drifting away from mags but the same would hold true if such a thing as a well written bike magazine existed..

Anybody read Simon Gandolfi's book? Or Ted Simon's?

They are very good writers who ride bikes quite badly, rather than very good bikers who write books quite badly.

And I'm very happy to pay good money for good writing.

--Mike

Very nice blog Mike.:thumbup1:

Explantion
 

Chris,you as a Moderator please explain how this thread belongs in RIDE REPORTS.This topic is for the bar and how by pointing this out am I to be told off for trolling.
Al

Good to see you want everything in its correct place. How right you are. I think that if you search around you may find other examples of wrongly placed posts. Let us know how many you found. Get back to us.:thumbup1:

Watch out
 

That sarky kind of comment might get you into trouble these days!!!
Al thebarkingspider

Albert. Just how can anyone take you seriously? As trolls go i'll give you 1/10.

I'll be nice to you and begin with a Glasgow kiss:winkiss:.

Albert
You work it out.

I'll give you a hand: a. The man from TWO started it here. b. He's asking for ride reports for his mag, c. Just because people are politely and forcefully (but with the stress on politely/in a civil manner) putting their points of view forward, doesn't automatically "condemn" it to the Bar. The bar is for "no useful content". People's views on mags/getting paid for stories are, in most people's opinion, useful, even if you disagree with them/find the topic boring or whatever. d. If you don't like what's written in this thread, don't read it. You're the one clicking the mouse/controlling what appears on your screen.

Yours
Chris (who also wears a flat cap)

Price is where supply meets demand
 

Who would have thought that a simple, innocuous (to me at least) offer from a magazine would prompt so much ire. Among some anyway, there's also a lot of common sense on this thread. Okay, it could be argued that common sense is in the eye of the beholder.

We live in a market economy. And thank god we do - have you seen the alternatives? If you like the idea of receiving GBP150 and seeing yourself published in a paper magazine, go for it. If you don't, don't. But please spare us the whinging.

Those asking "Why should I pay GBP3.99/whatever for a magazine that pays its writers peanuts?" are missing the point. No, you really are. No-one buys magazines or anything else in this life based on how much it cost the providers to provide them. We buy on the basis of whether we as individuals feel the product is worth our money. It really is that simple.

When I look at photos in magazines or elsewhere I care nothing for how much the photographer was paid - if paid at all. I care only for how good the photos are. It's the same with written material. Should I buy books based primarily on the size of the author's advance?

As for "If we don't pay writers generously good writing will disappear": Rubbish. User-generated content available for free on the internet is one of the most incredible children of the information revolution. I have often found far more useful, interesting and reliable information about motorcycling on forums than I can from a book. And I love books. And own thousands.

"Professional" writers who moan about poor quality "Amateur" writing are not actually angry about the quality of the amateur writing. They are angry that they may be losing their livelihood. Fair enough. But at least be honest about it. And remember, the editor who pays his contributors GBP5,000 a paragraph will soon be meeting them in the dole queue, his magazine having gone rapidly bust.

Okay, there's an awful lot of cack around on the net as well as the good stuff. Look at any youtube argument. "You're a twat" "No you're a twat". Perhaps the best thing about 21st century magazines is that, as well as allowing us the old-fashioned pleasure of reading from paper, they have been edited to filter out the drivel and show only the best. Some editors are better than others at this of course. I will chime in agreement with those who have expressed their irritation at reading yet another "Look at us drinking free beer in the sponsor's tent" article. Like most people I vote with my feet. I have reduced my magazine spend accordingly.

I'll end this post by adding a potential twist to the thread:

If you're reading this Cpl(?) Hogan, have a look at 15 countries in 40 days: Tanks, minefields, crashes and Kalashnikovs.
It's a longer ride report than the average, and better written or so I am told (and conceitedly believe). My price is therefore £250. But if you don't wish to proceed at that price, you'll get no whinging from me.

Andrew

Nice blog Andrew, good pics. The style of writing, since you mention it, is perfectly appropriate for a blog, though a tad more work would be needed for print publication IMO. I enjoyed it, and will return to it. I suppose though, that those kids begging in your pics of Bulgaria are glad they live in a market economy, with sound banks, financial honesty, and fair distribution of wealth? :scooter:

You refer to the "ire" this thread has produced; I see it more as the expression of long term frustration with publications which don't cut the mustard for many readers - so they vote with their keyboards. I was glad to see that my dissatisfaction with most mags is shared by others. That's not whinging, that's expressing a point of view.

Like you, I have made the mistake of riding through too many countries in too few days. Now I try to remember Ted Simon's "The Interruptions ARE the Journey".

IMHO the diary/blog-style seldom work in a printed article, blogs are great for following a trip from day to day basis but not as a summary of a trip (which is what an article is).
It’s much easier to write a blog then to write articles.
A blog fits for sharing stuff between friends and people with close interests, for a printed magazine the value is limited.

Usually there is no flow in a blog, it repeats itself “Day X we did this, Day Y we rode to Y where we did X”, who cares about the day? The uses of names should be limited etc. There is a lot of “rules” how to make an article and it doesn’t fit with how most people blog.

I profoundly disagree with the above statement. Who says they "show only the best"? I don't say that. I don't share the magazine's values; what's the "best"? I don't want some editor who may be a pillock or a rightwing nutter, "filtering" what I read.

As for "If we don't pay writers generously good writing will disappear": Rubbish.

This is true.

IMHO the diary/blog-style seldom work in a printed article

I agree. It's entirely natural for a blog but as a way of telling a story for a publication, it is dare I say, lazy or unimaginative.

I have not read A's blog and no offence, but I can also advise that when it comes to proposing an article for publication, pointing someone at x-thousand online words and saying take your pick or get back to me is unlikely to get a response. Editor-type people just haven't got time which is why dealing with unknowns are such a gamble. Even for your paltry 150£ you must do the work. If they ask for 2000 words (the usual parametre) give them 1950.

Maybe it's just me, but I also find it's best not to bang out a yarn as soon as you get back. You head is too full of impressions. I find if at least a year passes the result is often much better.

Ch

Good to see pro-active moderation of the usual suspects. A shame it's even necessary.

This is interesting. I recently used my blog as a reference text for a scene in a work of fiction wot I rote. The resulting text is far more evocative of the situation and the environment. However, writing down those initial impressions was invaluable. When trying to draw from memories I haven't written down at the time I find the process FAR harder and the resulting descriptions much more vague and woolly (albiet with more beautiful ladies and spectacular explosions).

I agree that a blog does not directly translate to the magazine article format. However, good writing is good writing and if you can write a genuinely interesting, exciting and evocative blog my bet is that you could write a good article.

Matt :)

Nice point. Has anyone read Bill Bryson? There's a man who has mundane "adventures" and writes about them extremely well. He can make a trip to the grocery store a compelling read.

You need a mixture of two things in order to make a good book or article:

1. A good story and 2. the ability to write it.

The grander the adventure, the more tolerable it will be to read poor writing... to a point. It works the other way, too. If you write well, then a trip to the pub will enthrall an audience.

Too true. In fact, this echos what I posted way back in the early pages of this thread. It's my policy to never actually work out the hourly rate I make as a writer, otherwise I'd become very depressed.

I sell my book at motorcycles shows and the odd book store or whatnot. People often say to me that they are "jealous," and that I have the "dream job." Apparently, they are under the impression that I make money. Or that I travel for free, at least. This is not the case.

When they ask me how I can afford to do what I do I reply, "I took a vow of poverty. I don't own a truck. I don't own a house." There's a good reason for the existence of the phrase "starving artist."

So why do we do it? I travel because I'm restless. Why do we write? I haven't figured that out yet, but I'm writing another book and I don't plan to give that question any further thought until I'm done!
:D

Nice one, Jeremy.

Jeremy, keep on writing because it's the right thing to do, and it's what you do - this is reason enough, IMO.

My best wishes for your next book and travels.:thumbup1:

Two
 

Suprise suprise!! NO response from Mr Hogan.?

Kind of connected to this, has anyone seen the latest copy of TWO magazine, Birdy has a piece in it on his C90 African adventure. Having read the article in the magazine though I must say that I much preferred reading his ride reports on the HUBB than in the mag.

I enjoyed Birdy's forum style of writing much more than the style used in the magazine. Don't know if it's down to editing by the mag or if it's just because Birdy had to fit everything into a relative short space but the forum posts make for a much more entertaining read, and (to me anyway) do Birdy and his trip much more justice than the TWO article.

I had posted on here a couple of days back thanking people for their responses. The thread has gone a little off topic in my opinion, not unusual for forum threads to do. What kind of response are you looking for? I posted, got a response, took what I wanted from it and thanked those that had taken the time to read it. Feel free to continue debating the subject but don't expect me to rise to the challenge of answering everyones questions, as my opinion may not be that of the publishing company I work for, or my editor. Cheers

Honestly, some people!! :(

It disappoints me that anyone could look at this thread and be less than pleased that they are being offered £150 for their article. You are not being offered a job with the magazine and I doubt many of you are full-time professional writers who depend on this as your sole source of income. It is just an opportunity to share your experience with others. Isn't this something that you would want to do anyway for nothing? There are many stories displayed on this site and you weren't offered anything for those, yet you still did it with pride and enthusiasm. For me the whole idea of bike travel is to enjoy it, record it in some fashion then tell others what a great time I had. It is sad that when some people are presented with an opprtunity they immediately look to see how they can squeeze even more from it.

Yes, TWO is a magazine that exists on it's sales income and the better the magazine is then the bigger the sales and the bigger the profits etc....., but that shouldn't deter ordinary decent people from contributing out of the kindness of their heart. What price would you put on your article being published for all your friends to see?

Shame on those who feel that £150 isn't enough. I'll be sending an article to them and if they publish it I'll be delighted. If it isn't good enough then maybe I can take great comfort in the fact that I had a priceless experience on the trip itself.

Chris

Interesting
 

What an interesting thread! :laugh:

I'm not a professional writer, far from it, but if you think my articles show promise or could give me an idea of the style of writing you require, then I'd be happy to let you publish them.

But I don't want any money, all I ask is that you make a donation to 'The Mines Advisory Group' MAG | Mines Advisory Group.

I'd feel better if you gave the money to the people and country that I'm writing about.

Pete

....and all you whingers could do worse than take a leaf out of pete123's book.

That's a very noble request Pete, but I suspect there will be many self-proclaimed "experts" here (whose writing ability probably isn't even up to local rag standard anyway!!) who can give you 100 reasons why you are selling yourself short and should therefore boycott the idea of sharing your experiences.

Chris

Hmm
 

Thanks Chris, you're probably right but 'Oi dunt wan no trubble meester!'

Sure, professional writers want to be paid for their work, they studied hard, struggled to achieve and they deserve proper recompense. But I don't think that's what TWO was looking for? Surely there was no hidden agenda. A good story was required for an occasional article in a bike magazine. I didn't see any ambiguity in that.

If I may, let me explain my reasoning to all. For many years, I spannered for a race team. We started at club level, did well and the rider secured good results. He won the New Era cup and things escalated. Next we would be competing in British Superstock, Ireland Road Races, the IOM TT and then the world. We went to Macau, Daytona and rode for Phase One Yamaha at Le Mans. But all the time we were paying for it out of our own pockets. I met great people, had a great time and was happy just to be a part of it. I learnt a lot, and was a better person for it. My point is, the trip isn't free but the experience is. What a great time we had! The guys I drank with didn't want paying for their tales. I met some wonderful people and made friends for life. Isn't that the same with bike touring? If you have a tale, tell it. You'll enjoy it! The best things in life are free.

That is actually a very fair counterpoint Chris... like you say, for most people (ie. amateur writers/bloggers, which as you say the original request was presumably aimed at), just seeing their story in print and being able to share it with a wider audience is more than enough 'reward'...

Thanks for putting it in perspective.

However, I would still uphold that if the quality of the writing/photography is sufficiently high enough to warrant publication in a mainstream magazine, then it is also worth a fair payment?

xxx

Hi JMo (& piglet)

Yes, I agree, if the standard of writing is good enough then perhaps it DOES warrant fair payment.

Before I wrote my original reply to this thread I had a browse through some of the previous posts written by some people who seemed to have the most vociferous opposition to the original idea, and believe me, the standard of writing does not suggest that these people are experts. The chances of someone writing a "copy ready" story are remote and it only those who DO earn their living from writing who are likely to meet that criteria. The whole idea of the request was surely to get a "biker's" story, someone who goes off on their travels because they want the experience and love what they're doing. If they want a perfectly written story they'll send one of their staff on a trip with the main purpose of writing about it.

My main opposition to those who replied in a negative manner is simple: some appear to think that just because they go on a trip it makes them experts in their field and this in turn means they should be paid handsomely in return. Put it this way, if you go to your Mum's house and she asks you to change a plug are you going to tell her afterwards that you want £50 for doing it coz that's what a REAL electrician would want for his call out charge and time spent?? Mind you, with some people here I wouldn't be surprised if they did!!!

Chris

Some of us write articles in a different language then we use on the HUBB.

That’s not true, but the more they have to work on your article the less you get paid.

For most magazines it will not be possible to send a journo away for some months to make an article. We are talking about 10-20.000 € each month and not a lot of magazines can afford it.
Basically when you sell articles you ask for 5-10% of what the magazine would have paid if they send their own people. Is it to much?


I don’t agree, and I’m not an expert.
My main motivation for this discussion is that because some people work without getting paid it’s harder for the rest to get paid. Because of this the best writers has to do something else and quality of the magazines drop.

I’m self-employed and I don’t charge family or close friends for my services.
But I do charge professional customers, is that wrong? No, it’s not because my customers use me as a tool to make money.

The day people start to do my work for free, I have a real problem, do you?

Doh !
 

What other sort of writing should go in a magazine ? Case closed.

And you haven't mentioned photos. No magazine in the world should consider publishing a story without great photos.

And Chris1200, you haven't argued against the basic point that there are thousands of very entertaining ride reports all over the web. If a publisher wants people to fork out 5 quid for a magazine, then excellence, high standards and professionalism is the only way to go, not trawling the web fishing for ideas from amateurs. Otherwise, the web will get stonger and mags will continue their decline as they make little investment in editorial.

Cheers

Dick

I've been following this discussion (and past ones which it much resembles) silently. Like one poster I've been puzzled that some of those complaining most loudly clearly lack professional level writing skills. Perhaps it's true that standards are different for forums...but I'm a dubious sort who'd feel more credulous were there evidence at hand...and I'd certainly not tout my skills loudly in public while offering concrete evidence of their absence.

This aside, I find the larger question far more intriguing: do I, as a hypothetical non-professional, owe it to the pros to keep silent? Should I refrain from submitting my (hypothetical) written work or photography at less than professional scale in order to protect those who feel they're worth far more than I? It's an interesting question

Well, what happens if I apply the same standards to other realms: shall I not re-shingle my roof when it leaks, to protect the carpenter who might suffer for lack of work (or, a better analogy, to prop up his wages by increasing demand for his services)? When I was younger and more vigorous I used to rake leaves, shovel snow and help people move households to and from the neighborhood; was I unfairly undercutting the professionals who were then charging substantially more than I?

What about later in life, when I became a tradesman myself; should I have responded angrily to those who offered what was generally lesser quality work for far less money than I? I mean, instead of what I actually did, which was to figure out how to offer what they could not, and to make the case to my employers that this made me worth what I charged, and preferable to those who charged less. Successfully, I might add.

I'm prepared to question my assumptions, but at the moment I continue to believe that if the professional laborer, carpenter, photographer and/or writer cannot offer more value in some recognizable form than I, the not-entirely-hypothetical amateur, well, it's not my job to preserve their earning power for them. Rather, it's wholly their job to find some way to capitalize on their presumably better skills, connections, insight, experience....or whatever it is that makes them believe themselves deserving of a certain level of compensation. If the market (a dubious concept indeed, but useful at times) doesn't agree with their elevated self-assessment, it is not up to me to prove them correct.

In the present instance, if there are people here with something special to offer--something which has real value to the reading public--by all means sell it to whoever is willing to pay for it. Some of you are already doing this. But if what you're offering isn't worth very much to those holding all the cards, or if a great many people on any random website could do just as good a job as you.....well, maybe you won't be able to earn a living as a writer. To get paid you've got to offer something for which there's a demand, something special. It's not enough to complain that other people are doing it more cheaply, and that they really ought to stop.

The problem with all this is that I agree, in a general sort of way, that the situation with regard to writing standards pretty much sucks. There is a lot of written work out there, and most of it is badly conceived, badly written, badly edited, badly executed in more ways than I can count. The reading public---which includes all of us, I gather---doesn't have much patience or taste, and we don't look to be developing any in the near future. It's a shame that good writers aren't paid more, and that poor writers soak up way more than their share of the limited amount of money available. It's a shame that the good magazines are all going belly-up, and that mediocrity prevails over class and substance. There's a lot of shame to go around, no doubt about it.

Yet this doesn't alter anything I've written above; if you want to earn a living at writing (or anything else), you've got to offer something that others don't, not try to persuade them to refrain from competing with you. And you've got to connect with someone who's willing to pay you for that something special. At least, that's how I've always seen it.

I hope this post, rambling and disjointed though it may be, is taken in the constructive spirit in which it is intended. No insult or disrespect to other posters or their stated positions is intended....and I'll look forward to hearing more from any and all.

Safe journeys!

Mark

I guess we are allowed to have meanings even if we lack professional level writing skills?

Who asks you to keep silent? Get paid is what we ask for!!!!

Sure it’s okay to fix your roof, would you also fix my sisters roof ? She’ll pay 2% of your expenses.

If your sister will pay me 2% of my expenses to do say the next Elefant rally and send her a post card about what it's like, I'll do it :thumbup1:. She'll get a better deal than paying Jerremy Clarkson to stay in a 4-star hotel twenty miles away and write "lifestyle" rubbish.

Claims of profesionalism are always hard to establish especially as any field will overlap another. I'm a former Engineer and it does annoy me when people refer to "getting an engineer in" to fix their washing machine (that's a mechanic or technician). I'm sure lawyers get annoyed by the citizens advice bureau or DIY housemove/will packs. I know accountants get upset when book keepers give themselves fancy job titles (married to a tax accountant :helpsmilie:).

You tell the professionals by the work they do. I could design a washing machine, a tech couldn't (not to say many wouldn't aquire these skills). A pre-prepared will is fine if you have a thousand quid to leave to your kids, not if your Ex-wives step children are going to fight the Dogs home over your thousand first issue Microsoft shares and your collection of Rolls Royces. That guy needs a lawyer.

BUT, times and expectations change. Two hundred years ago you'd have had a surgeon lance a boil if you could afford it. Today, knowing any infection could be cured, you might take something from a sewing kit to it. Is IKEA furniture really that bad compared to Chippendale when all you need is something to eat your tea off?

Like I've said before on this thread, times are changing. A few Chippendale level writers will survive, but most of us are happier with IKEA prices.

Andy

Wow, same planet, different worlds.

Why do you think that magazines should pay freelance contributors 5-10% of what they would pay their own people? Don't you think that magazines will pay, and should pay, what the market requires?

And if some people "work without getting paid" it means they are doing it because they enjoy it....it is not really work to them...people who do the same work and demand to be well paid should expect to be very disappointed, because other people enjoy the "work" enough to do it for free, so of course it is "harder for the rest to get paid".

Sorry, but I don't understand your point here. I'm addressing the issue of people complaining that they don't get paid much, even though they do not demonstrate an ability to perform at a level which warrants payment.


[quote=AliBaba;237621 Who asks you to keep silent? Get paid is what we ask for!!!![/quote]
Some posting here seem to think that they are most likely to get paid if they can silence much of their competition (or at least persuade them not to submit written work unless well-compensated for it). I don't think this is likely to work.


[quote=AliBaba;237621 Sure it’s okay to fix your roof, would you also fix my sisters roof ? She’ll pay 2% of your expenses.[/quote]
I'll assess what your sister is willing to pay, and decide whether it's worth my while. If not, I'm not going to expend much time or energy complaining about the guy who comes in and does the work more cheaply than I'm willing to do; I'm too busy figuring out what I can offer than he can't.

enjoy,

Mark

I was simply quite happy to see myself in print and get a foot on the bottom rung of the ladder. Even if it is un/low paid, it gets your name known amongst people who have some influence in the business. I'm not a pro, so the way I see it, I can't expect pro's rates. BUT... I can string a sentence together, and so I am hopeful that this opportunity will lead to something else.

This offer from TWO is perfect for someone like me - it gives an opportunity to people who otherwise may not get one - surely encouraging grass roots talent is a positive thing?

Birdy

As Chris1200 pointed out earlier... that is pretty much the crux of it - good for you!

xxx

really
 

I'm new to the Hubb and forums in general, and while I've found this thread interesting, it has become a tad unsettling.

People are complaining about and trying to justify what they are worth and I find this self interest somewhat puerile. I buy magazines every week and it is I who decides what you are worth with my wallet. If the buying public doesn't like what they are reading then they stop buying. A good editor/owner will detect the falling sales and a successful editor/owner will react and revise his contributors or content.

I stand by my previous comment that professional writers deserve to be paid well for their labours, but it's a tough business and your work needs to be special if you are going to make a successful living nowadays. Birdy had the right idea, get the exposure that was offered and move forward. Isn't that how most of us started our careers? We were thankful for the opportunities given us, let's not complain when someone is offered the same.
Btw, I love reading your articles Birdy and I'll take any magazine that you are featured in.

Pete

I’m not sure how to make this clear… The reason I ask people to get paid is because otherwise they make it worse for other people to get paid. This again makes good writers quit and the publications get even more boring.
If you think this is “trying justifying what I’m worth” that’s up to you. It might be out of self interest because I want to read good magazines.

Other than that I don’t care if people work for free, but I don’t work unless I get paid.
I would also say if an article is good enough to get printed then it’s good enough to get paid.

In an ideal world, yes..
But because people don’t want to pay much for mags the editors often use cheaper articles and increase the ads. This is also a common trick to make the numbers look better if they plan to sell their business.
Long term planning is not what it used to be and “decreasing cost” is trendier then “increasing quality”.

Yes!
 

Yes, you are quite correct. A professional writer who submits a good story deserves to be paid well.
But this offer wasn't aimed at you and shouldn't be dismissed. It was an up front offer open to all. If you wish to submit a story and receive £150 for your effort, then it's a fair deal. If you think it's a rip off, ignore it.
I see your point, the magazines might be seen as trying to control the market and capitalising on cheaper contracts, but isn't that business? Everyone looks to save a few quid now and then. I won't take my bikes to the dealer to get them serviced and when my plumbing packs in, I call Joe from the Co-op. He isn't Corgi registered but he knows his way around my pipes! I can't fault his work and he's never let me down. Any professional plumbers, please join the debate....if my house floods then I'll get in the boat with TWO magazine.
I thought TWO were right, and brave it seems, to offer this opportunity and I wish success to those who are willing to take it.

?
 

why brave ? they are risking nothing and investing absolutely zilch. £150 is the petrol expenses on a 300 mile round trip in the UK for anybody on professional business. It's what anybody travelling from London to Manchester and back in their own car would charge. £150 is absolutely bloody nothing, really. And few businesses survive by making no investment in either their staff or materials.

i don't think they are brave- i think they must have a death wish on their own magazine.

I'll happily read the internet blogs and websites to find stories from keen amatuers

If I'm going to part with my 5 quid, it will be because the words are insightful, interesting, new, different and concise. If the photos are awe inspiring, colourful and make you dream long after you have put the magazine down, then they have my money.

But a cobbled together article, produced as an afterthought to a journey , no thanks

Unsure if that is a reference to the travel article from this months TWO. If it is, I apologise that it came out like that. It is very difficult to condense thousands of miles of travel into 2000 words, and manage to tell anything at all, let alone get personal style and flair into it. You can't travel across one country without getting a dozen 2000 word stories, so trying to compress a large number of countries into those precious few words is a tall task.

The problem there is that no magazine is going to serialise a story by a nobody over several issues. It just isn't going to happen if you are not a staffie or a celeb.

The way I see it, TWO are making an investment. They are giving people a chance, and those people may show promise, and remember that TWO gave them that chance. I would love to write something for BIKE, but as they have never even replied to one of my emails, if I have something, I would punt it to TWO. Given that amateurs like myself are cheap - that seems like an investment to me.

I am in the process of mailing various mags to see if there is anyone who will offer me something for my next trip, but there is very little out there. The pictures will be better next time too - I lost almost all of mine last time due to a faulty memory card.

Birdy

No no
 

Hi Birdy,

No mate, none of my many ramblings on this subject are a criticism of any biker, traveller, rider or whoever, it is aimed fairly and squarely at Professional magazines who don't make investments in their magazines (and it's not the bitter ramblings of a freelance photographer, I've got a staff job)

I had a bit of a trawl around and found the article that inspired me many many years ago. I hope Karim won't mind me linking to his website - trawl down the left hand side and look for "Heinz Adlers Adventure" - interestingly enough it was the inspiration for Karims travels too. It was Bike magazine in the late 80s

Look here.......... Karim's Desert Biking Disasters and Adlers adventure is half way down on the left

Brilliant pictures and a full story. That opening spread says it all. Worn Michelin Desert, rusty spokes, palmed lined beach, tanned skinny body, ruffled hair, battered luggage, old map - it's a posed picture that has had a lot of thought put into it and it has been seared in my memory ever since. Fabulous. Its 8 pages of Bikers Travellers porn - And that story can be sold in France, Australia, Germany, Italy etc etc, The Sunday Times, Airline magazines, blah blah blah. And remember this is film photography in the days before Digital when you weren't exactly sure what you were going to get and the maxim "take a hundred snaps, there should be a good one in there somewhere" didn't exist

Its the difference between amatuer and professional , the difference between paying 5 quid and not paying 5 quid.

And Birdy, back your stuff up . Professional photographers store their photographs in an absolute minimum of 5 different ways - computer, external hard drive, internet, CD, DVD, back up back up back up :smartass: straightaway, ie that evening after you have taken them at the very latest. And your computer should have Disk recovery software on it which can recover even the deadest of dead Cards

Sorry, I haven't read TWO this month, but I have surfed Horizons, Advrider and others an awful lot

That is indeed a truly awesome photo. It encapsulates the dream. I can fully believe that photo launched a thousand trips. It is just a pity my computer claims the link to the high res copies is broken - I would love to read the text.

How exactly do you go about doing that? As an aspiring freelance, I've had massive trouble even getting a British bike mag editor to reply to an email, let alone read anything I have had to say.

As for the backing up, in a perfect world I would, but I don't have enough packing power to travel with anything other than the camera itself - so I am forced to leave it in the lap of fate. I bought cheap memory, and paid the price later.

Thanks,

Birdy

How
 

Unfortunately, it is one of the sh@ite parts of being a freelance, you have to sell yourself and it is no different to door-to-door selling of toilet brushes or selling 4000 tonnes of processed aluminium to the Chinese. It's just persistence, research, getting on the blower, emailing, sending letters, making appointments, turning up unannounced, breaking down doors, not taking NO as an answer, making up a portfolio to show your customer the product, getting University students to translate stories for you and then more of the above, over and over again. There is no set route and thats what makes it either fun or a nightmare, depending on your viewpoint.