Hi

we've been last year in Altay and Tuva, also along the Tuva track. We've managed to do the red tape for both regions. We went back from Kyzyl over the M54. There are stretches, where you can take the now unused old highway, I would recomend that, but we haven't been on the other road to Tuva over Ak Dovurak. You can see our (german) travel report here .
I posted an update about track and permit on thorntree last july, but it is not available for the moment.

Christian

PS on M54 the Ergaki mountains are the main sight, unfortunately we had rain and therefore no sight

Hi Bob

as the permit information is not available at the moment on thorntree, I'll try a short version.
But our way of getting the permits is not a guarantee that others will get them too.
You need two border permits, one for Tuva and one for Altai.
When we booked the flight march last year, we thought we could get them via agencies, but after contacting various agencies the answer was negative. Whether they did not answer or they wanted to provide a whole guided tour or they had no idea (but at least answered). Most people told, it is only possible (if it would be possible at all) to do by a guided tour (I met in Altai a tour operator who did it on his own but was sceptical, that western tourists could get both permits).
So in the end we thought we would have to do it without permit, but my girlfriend wasn't happy about it. So she did some google and went over the FSB page (with google translator) and found a way to appy for the permit.
You can download from their site a form for the application. I think the important point is, that there are several forms, one form for group voyage and also a form for individiual travellers. Perhaps (own speculation) the group permit is only possible with a guided tour. So we took the individual form, wrote with cyrillic letters on the computer our trip and passport data on it and now had to find an adress to send it (we printed it, made our signature and scanned it then).
There is an adress for the Altai, where you can mail the application pugornyjaltaj@mail.ru (even two, as Ust-Koksa has also a border guard headquater pugornyjaltaj_u-koksa04@mail.ru). Just a day before doing the permit application, I realized some photos of the Ukok region and saw it would be quite an interesting side trip, therefore we added this region on our application. We also mailed it to a tuvan mail adress, but got a mailer daimon reply. Therefore we just wrote a mail to the fsb-main mail-adress.
We got no reply and therefore were not sure if the way was right.
You have to apply at least 2 months before your journey. So after several weeks we wrote another mail to the adresses and asked where to get the permit and magically from Aktash came a short answer, that we would get it there (btw the permit is without charge).
Tuva did not reply and therefore we had no idea where to pick it up (in Kyzyl??).
When we came to Altai we did the registration at the lady indicated by LP (her agency is aguana, the lady seemed surprised that we could organize the permit ourselves but told us, she could have done it also for us). It was no problem, even on a day where OVIR is usually closed. She also phoned to Aktash and we got the confirmation, that our permits were lying there. The registration is good to have, as you have a sheet of paper with a stamp. On Ukok a mobile control also looked at it and we had written on the registration that we would be in the Ukok-region (Belashy).
We were in Aktash on a Sunday but the border guards had open and we could get the permit easily. We used itwith the mobile control and at the exit of the zone, where is a permanent post (we entered pathless over Elangash). We could also show the permit at exit of Kosh-Agatsch, but had no Tuva permit.
We continued to Mugur Aksi (I lost my tracks and waypoints just at the Tuvan frontier, but we managed to come through with the russian maps, only after the lake we therefore took the old trails). Before Mugur-Aksi we had some bad midnight experience (someone wanted to steal our bikes and as we had an alarm that turned on he was inhibited, but 10 minutes later just fired a shot from nearby - we also had kind of this experience in Altay a year before when at midnight some hunters thought they saw some deer just behind our tent, after the shots you usually get not much sleep).
We knew from Colebatch's report, that after Mugur Aksi there will be a border guard post but hoped, that it might be deserted as described by other tourists. But when we came there, a car was just turned back at the "Schlagbaum". So when we got there, the guards just led us to their headquater and told something like, you are here for the permit? So I thought we could do it on the spot, as we had no tuvan permit. They were searching for some formulaires and I was also searching for the form I had handed in to central FSB. But magically after some minutes they found two papers with stamps on it, that were issued on our names, just some days ago. That was really a great moment, as we couldn't imagine how good the russian bureaucracy works (mail to central fsb results in a correct permit, to be picked up at some totally isolated border post at the mongolian frontier, I think they guessed from our given itinerary where we would enter the permit region in Tuva). We later were only controlled once, just very short before the tarmac (a white jeep with some officials wanted to see the permit, but perhaps on a motor bike you would be too fast, so he might not have the time to stop you).
We could have continued along the frontier (when you give the correct districts), but thought it would be better to get an idea of the tuvan mainland (Chadan-Kyzyl) and as we knew already this mongolian style landscape from last year.

I hope this description helps a bit. Just when we rode the track another tourist did it on taxis but without permit. But at least for Ukok I think you should have a permit. Altay permits seem to be given often, our number was in the 7XX, while our tuvan permit had a single digit number.

Christian

Hello Chris and thanks for the info.

I will do some more research. I spoke to some Russians and they told me they got the Ukok permit in half an hour before closing time in Kosh-Agash and that the guys there at the office were very friendly.

I don't know if they will be like this with foreigners also. If I find out some news I will post here.

Bob (Cristian)

I was at the Kosh Agach office last year and asked about getting a permit at short notice.

They said no problem if I was Russian. But as a foreigner it takes a couple of months and you have to email them.

the form to be completed
 

Hi,

we made a phone call to fsb office in Russia. they said we need to email and fax the following form

http://ps.fsb.ru/law/generaldoc/more...%40fsbNpa.html

we sent this by email to fsb@tuva.ro, altay@fsb.ru; after some days we tried to call their offices (telephone nrs from fsb page). From Altai no answer. From Tuva they said they would verify the papers and after that they would mail us...

we also sent this form by fax and by email Chris wrote up here: pugornyjaltaj@mail.ru

We will try to call Altai again these days to ask if the papers are ok.

ps: if anyone needs the form in doc, just pm me and I'll send a copy by email

edit 21 June: after a lot of phone calls, we found out that we should email for Tuva at pu.tuva@fsb.ru too. After we sent to this email once again that documents, we received an answer and they told it would take 2 months for the answer.. we replied that we don't have this time (we sent the first email at beginning of May).
After a long time we had an answer from Altay, they said that our documents are in processing, and to call them short time before coming there to this nr: 8388 46 23 654 /51 ext 15

edit 6 November 2013:
We came from Krasnoyarsk to Kyzyl. When we arrived to Kyzyl we went to the border office (N51 43.053 E94 28.526). Because we didn't send the mail to the right address from the beginning, they said our permit would be available after about 2 weeks... We explained them that we took the address from the russian fsb site, etc... After some discussions, they told us to come in the afternoon. We were lucky, they helped us. We were asked for this permits in Mugur Aksy by a Russian police officer.

so remember, if you need Tuva permit, this is the right email address: pu.tuva@fsb.ru

For Altay, we went to the border office in Kosh Agash (N49 58.021 E88 38.119, on a Sunday). The man at the gates asked our names and took my telephone nr and told us to go back to the hotel. We received a telephone later telling us to go to Ak Tash for the permits (I'm not sure if we understood well why we had to go there, because we weren't Russians or because some technical problems with the fax).
In Ak Tash the office (N50 18.691 E87 35.682) is closed on Sundays, so we went there the next day.

Regards,
Cristian

I would try going North via A161 - just for something different. I dont know of anyone who has been Ak Dovurak - Abaza on a moto and I need some waypoints for my collection ;)

Just stumbled on a curious and useful piece of info that may allow people to potentially do both Tuva AND Mongolia in one trip.

Хандагайты (Боршо) | Красноярский филиал | Филиалы ФГКУ Росгранстрой | Филиалы | ФГКУ Росгранстрой

A Russian border information page, states that the Khandagayty crossing from Tuva to Mongolia will be made into an international crossing. When that is I dont know, but I anyone checks the site and sees a change in the status to Multilateral, please post here.

Anyone doing the Tuva track this year, when you start / come out near Khandagayty, can you check with the guys at the border (a) if it is open for foreigners or (b) when it will be open to foreigners?

Well, here is an update from this year:

Send in an application to the Altai email address and they replied back that they received the application.

Same with the Tuva address and they replied back the same. Next day they asked to be faxed a copy of the passport. The fax number they emailed didn't work.

I asked my visa lady to call them and they now wanted a copy of the visa as well. They did all that and insisted I have to pick up the permit in Kyzyl, which is no good for me, as I'll go the other way.

We called the Altai office as well. Non of the listed numbers are good, we got referred to +7 388 22 48200. They said they got the application all is well and they don't need anything else. Permit can be picked up in Gorno Altaisk, although we asked Kosh Agash.

Just hoping for the best. Intend to call a few more times. Who knows how this will work out. My plans are kind of in disarray anyway, with the Pamir closed right now.

[QUOTE=bob66;423051]Hi,

we made a phone call to fsb office in Russia. they said we need to email and fax the following form

[url=http://ps.fsb.ru/law/generaldoc/more.htm%21id%3D10320874%40fsbNpa.html]

Very interesting and helpful explanation! Thanks for that!! But one question more: where you found the e-mail adresses from the border divisions?? The linked FSB site only shows me telephone numbers.

I plan to pass Mondy in Eastern Sayan this autumn (from Slyudyanka westward) which is border zone too. To apply the border permit I would need an e-mail of the border division in Buryatia.

Quick update: My permit was ready after two months. I made no further phone calls, just rolled up to the local FSB office in Gorno-Altaisk. Didn't have to go inside (heavy security procedures). Instead a nice chap came out with the papers. Just ask for the "Propusk" and show them your application. They'll know.

Hi, to complete the topic, here some additional informations how I got the permits:

I planned a two month bike/boat trip along the mongolian border from Buryatia over Tuva to Altay, so I needed three border permits for each republic. After some days I posted my question I found this site which is better structured than the ps.fsb.ru...

here you can download the forms to apply a border permit (for individual travels form no. 2):
Подробно :: Федеральная Служба Безопасности

and here is a list of the e-mail adresses:
Подробно :: Федеральная Служба Безопасности

At june 30. I sent the fullfilled, subscribed and scanned forms (as pdf and jpeg) to the border divisions of Buryatia, Tuva and Altay. Buryatia replied fast within some hours, Tuva after some days, Altay did not sent any reply (maybe the restriction of the border zone I planned to cross - Tuva track, Argut valley, Ust-Koksa/Ust-Khan - was relaxed.. a man from Gorno-Altajsk told me this about Ust-Khan in october). Buryatia and Tuva everytime sent confirmations of receipt, Tuva wanted to have a copy of passport too.

Because I started my travel at august 20. in Irkutsk, I was not sure if I can get the first permit for Buryatia before I reach the border zone, because the 60 days of processing would end around august 30. So in Mondy (the border administration of Ulan-Ude promised to send the permit there) I passed the check point without any comment that I applied the permit. They let me go, only assured, that I don't want go to the mongolian border... Later I saw in my e-mails that the permit was ready at that moment, but I and also the border guards at the check point didn't know this...

When I reached Kyzyl in end of september the 60 days of processing were long over, so I tried to get the permit from the administration in Kyzyl (they sent me the adress by e-mail at september 12.). This was not a nice experience, because they asked a lot of questions, they really grilled me like STASI of GDR... I guess they searched a problem, and they found one: I was travelling as a "tourist" but I had a business visa - that means violation of Russian rights and a punishment of 2000 RUB (luckily, because that was the minimum punishment!). One day later they released me and handed out the permit - I was able to continue my travel and went to Handagayti via Hovu-Aksy over Tannu mountain range. I was controlled there only two times on the road, between Handagayti and Mugur-Aksy no control (the check point which colebatch marked on his track was unmanned).

When I went the Tuva Track from Mugur-Aksy along lake Khindiktig to Kosh-Agach in october, the winter starts with snow and temps down to -20 degree. The section along lake Khindiktig was unused at that time and I had to make my own lane in 10-20cm snow.. The main connection was via Kyzyl-Khaja (like bob66 gone), from there few cars went to Kosh-Agach.

Because I was late, I only continued along the main road M52 to Bijsk and Novosibirsk. No more border zones, no more controls, the Altay permit was not necessary.

Greets,
Richard

Follow up to this post ... it seems the Khandagayty border and the Mondy border (north of Khovsgul) have both been made Multilateral (open to foreigners) in 2014.

Thanks for the update Mr Colebatch :thumbup1:

I'm preparing for some border permits for this year's trip (specifically Dagestan and Ingushetia but the procedure is the same). It asks for the name / details of the inviting party and I'm wondering what to do...

- leave it blank?
- use the details of the inviting agency for my visa?
- ask a local friend if they will help (I have friends in both regions, but I am hesitant to ask given the relations with the FSB there...)

Cheers

EO

Good News Walter!

I ran into some cyclists and they wanted to cross that border. Wonder how they got on last summer. It would be funny if the border was open all along. Can't say I would feel bad though. Had a fantastic trip on your tracks as it was.

Opens up new route options for this year :-)


Have the forms changed? I don't remember filling this in. The Tuva FSB did ask for the visa details after I submitted the form, but we just called them and told them I didn't have the visa yet, which seemed to be OK. The Altai FSB did ask for it and it worked out great.

Cheers,
boarder

The form is not asking for visa details, but for an inviting person / organisation.

Mondy and Khandagaity were certainly bilateral only in 2008.

EO