Help - Carnet in Russia. True or False?
 

Hi folks,

I'm getting some seriously confusing messages about carnets in Russia.

A hubb search made me think I didn't need one, but got this email from my shipping guy today.

"The advice we are receiving from the customs agent in Russia is that an ATA carnet should be used for taking the motor bikes and personal effects into Russia…….is this contrary to what you understand?"

Has anyone travelled in Russia with a carnet? Has anyone travelled in Russia without a carnet? Do you need a deposit? Have the rules changed? Help!

Thanks!

I'm on my way there in June and have been told repeatedly that a carnet is not required, BUT I've only asked about EU registered vehicles.

check out www.waytorussia.net which has a specific Transportation section on taking vehicles into Russia. It mentions that the vehicles are "stamped" into your passport when you arrive and "stamped" out again on departure. Plus renewing every month at a customs office. Not sure what happens if the vehicle does nt leave, I suppose you get touched for some import duties.

You don't need a carnet for russia. I was there last summer.

yes, but your european, the person asking the question isn't!! speak with the authority that issues the carnet, they should have the definitive answer. you could also speak to russian customs or the consulate and try to get written confirmation (good luck on that one!!)

certainly europeans don't need one, but then I need a carnet for Australia and New Zealand!!

My suspicion is you will need one, but that is just a guess.

http://dreamers1.com/russia/Practica...ies.htm#Carnet
Is a link to the Kingsmills website (Australians) who did the same trip in 2005 - so the info is not too old. Definitely says NO CARNET.

ATA carnets.
 

I'm making a bit of progress but I'm still a bit confused.

There seem to be two separate carnet systems.

1. Carnet de passage - this is for your vehicle, administered by you local automobile association.

2. ATA carnet for things which are NOT motor vehicles. e.g. Tent, sleeping bag etc. - This is administered by a trade organisation, for example in NZ its the chamber of commerce. Costs about $400 per carnet + 100% of value bond.

What I'm getting from my customs guy is an ATA carnet request, eg for tents and sleeping bags. I'm NOT going to bring any expensive electronic gear with me, because this is exactly the situation I wanted to avoid. The most expensive item on my list of equipment (apart from the bikes) is a US$300 pair of motorbike boots.

It also seems like a lot of work. Every item needs to be photographed and described in detail.

The catch is they want it in Russian, so it's going to cost another heap of money to get it translated by a recognised translator.

Has anyone heard of this before? Has anyone had experience with ATA carnets, in Russia or anywhere else?

I'm looking forward to your comments.

I'll keep you posted too.

Cheers.

[quote=bartman10]
What I'm getting from my customs guy is an ATA carnet request, eg for tents and sleeping bags.

Has anyone heard of this before? Has anyone had experience with ATA carnets, in Russia or anywhere else?
[quote]

It's nonsense,
ATA carnet is only for expensiv profesional electronic and other gear. And my friend bring with him (5000 euro) expensiv video camera without carnet but I must say that on russian custom no one look at our baggage. We spent there 4 hours but only for paper bureaucracy.

yep, sounds like cak to me too. didn't have problem taking in gps or laptop or £2000 of camera gear

Been to Russia twice,
 

both times I had $2000 worth of camera gear, a $2000 laptop, and a $1000 Guitar. Granted I flew into moscow and there was no cross country bike trip involved. Never the less I didn't need any type of carnet for that equipment.

ATA carnets used to be about "trade goods" transitting a country. I remember having to carry about 50 pages of carnets in the late 70s when driving trucks down to Saudi from the UK stacked full of Swiss Rolls and toilet paper - dont ask me why anyone would road transport those two commodities.

I think your agent maybe having a bit of a lend of you - the only thing I can think is that if your personal effects are arriving unaccompanied and the gaent has to have paperwork to account for it.

Bartman! At the back of the Carnet de Passage is a list of all countries that use/require this document. Russia is not on the list, so it do not matter where you are from - Russia is not a Carnet de Passage country. Most countries in the world aren't. Certainly I've never been asked to show it in Russia.

When it comes to your belongings - at the port of entry you will be given a custom form that you'll have to fill out. Thats it. If you do not carry plutonium, you should be OK. Just an advice - keep your GPS in your pocket and do not flash it to officials. In some parts of Russia people have been arrested for using one.

What you need for sure is an Ingostrakh - a Russian third party insurance. Again do not worry, these are easily purchased for a reasonable cost at the border.

Enjoy your trip!

carnet
 

Bartman! For 100% sure you don't need any carnet to enter Russia. But you have to fill in the declaretion crossing the border, where you should note the final destination in Russia, the custom officer basing on that information give you adacuate amount of days to go there and come back. For example, if you are going to Moscow, they will give you permission for temporary importation of bike for 7-10 days etc. But if you break the rule and export your bike later then you have to do it, you wil have to pay the full cost of the bike!!!!

carnet
 

If you ship motorcycle, this declaration should be filled by shiping company.

But you can go to custom in any city and extend your permission. In that case they extent it to the date when your visa expire.

I just finished my Carnet Submission to the CAA...
 

Bartman10:

I am an American shipping my motorcycle to Europe on May 9, 2007. I just finished my Carnet Paperwork yesterday (2-8-07) with the person responsible for preparing Carnets for vehicles from North America (Suzanne Danis of the CAA).

She has indicated that a Carnet De Passage is NOT Required for Russia (She says that the Russian Border/Customs will stamp it in your passport when you enter the country).

I hope this helped. Safe travels.

Michael

Thanks for the responses.

The shipping agent is still requesting an ATA carnet, (NOT carnet de passage, which is what Mac19406 has got) although we might not have to get it translated, which will save a bit of money.

Does anyone in the HU community who speaks fluent Russian want to clarify a few things with the Russian customs agent via email for me? I think the language barrier might be a problem. I'll be happy to buy you a beer or two when I get over there in return.

I've still got time to sort this one out. It won't be the end of the trip if I have to get the carnet, but I'd rather not have the hassle, risk and expense.

I'm planning to arrive in Vladivostok on about May 28th 2007.

Let me know via email or private message:

bartman10 ({@}) gmail (dott) com

Thanks

there are a few guys on herewith english wives/girlfriends who might be able to help. if you haven't had any help in the next couple of weeks let me know by PM. I'll try my girlfriend but not sure if her english will be up to an exact translation!!

one thing you could try is to cut and paste the document into babel fish, that should give you a good approximation.

carnet...smarnet
 

OK, so what country needs a carnet if we go west from Vladivostok to eastren Europe through Turkey.
This is the better question.
Right?
Let's make a list of carnet countries.
Could someone with one publish the list on the back of the carnet.
Please.
Arriving in Vlad June 3, headed west with a KTM 640 Adventure. So far without a carnet.
Carnetless.
Yikes....
Bill.

Carnet's
 

Such a list should be made per country of origin of the vehicle.

With my Belgian registered vehicle, I don't need a Carnet in Europe, Turkey, Russia ... I'll need one for Iran, I don't know about Kazastan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, ... But I don't care since I need it for Iran anyway.

Also, it is not because a country is mentionned on the back of a Carnet that it requires a carnet. It should accept the carnet as a valid document that allows for temporary import though. I've used my carnet also in countries that where not mentionned on the back.

Bill.
RogerM has kindly scan/reproduced the list of countries on the HUBB thread "Countries that require Carnet de Passages en Douane"

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...passages-25671

I don't know if countries have a differing policy depending on where the vehicle (and traveller?) originates from.

unfortunately, as discussed in the forum elsewhere, that list is not accurate. a number of the countries listed do not require carnet. if in doubt speak to your issuing authority or email the embassy of the individual country. print off the reply and keep it in your docs.
the reassuring thing about that list though is that no former soviet states are on it!! certainly from UK you don't need carnet for any of eastern europe, except, as previously discussed, you have a big stack of expensive electronic gear.

I wish people would read the footnotes in that post and not just say its inaccurate. The African footnote says that not all countries require it but the carnet is used to ease the transit process.

Just a thought.

I have been trying to get an ICMV for a French registered bike.

The French auto club say that there is not one for France and that I should use the Carnet as that contains the vehicles details translated into other languages.
This is true and so can ease your passage.

My concern is that it is a valuable document that you don't want to be giving to any Tom, Dick or policeman.

Make copies and use them where appropriate would seem to be the answer.
Do not use the real thing unless its nesessary.

John

I did read the footnotes and it is inaccurate! it makes no difference in many of those african countries wether you have a carnet or not. if I hadn't read the footnotes I would have also pointed out that you don't need a carnet for the european countries mentioned, but the footnotes explain why they are mentioned!!!

really the list doesn't help very much. what people want to know is if they need a carnet or not. if you don't need one, why go to the expense of getting one, even if it does save 10 minutes at the border. I see no value in getting a carnet (£1000 for my vehicle last time I checked) unless it is an absolute requirement. personally, I think the list missleads more than it helps. Also, if you have acarnet and the worst comes to the worst and you have to dump your vehicle your in for a difficult and expensive time, whether the country concerned needed one or not. If you don't need it, save yourself a lot of hassle and expense and don't have one.
Anyone that wants to have a look at the various threads about this list follow the link above, I don't want to hijak someone elses thread anymore! then you can form your own opinion.
I'm not having a go roger so don't take it personally!
just IMHO of course so don't hang me for it!!

Thanks guys! Just one point I'd like to make...

I think everyone needs to be more specific about carnets when they post questions and answers about them.

As I have recently discovered these are two separate documents, and some countries may require one type of carnet and not the other.

Could you please specify if you are talking about an ATA carnet or a carnet de passage?

I think it would be very upsetting if you got to a border and found you had spent $20,000 on the wrong type!

Thanks for all the offers of help, it's very much appreciated. :clap::clap:

Don't think that matters.

The carnet simply says that the vehicle will not be staying in the country. If it were to stay then there would be import duties/taxes.. no matter where it came from. The taxes and fees may change with vehicle origin .. but not the requirement?

Off cours it matters
 

Off Course it matters. Taking a Belgian vehicle into Syria requires a Carnet, taking a Lebanese vehicle into Syria doesn't. Depending on the country the vehicle comes from, the rules may be different. There are some differences with German vehicles compared to Belgian vehicles in Nigeria or Cameroon (don't remember which one) for instance.

Cheers,

Rob

Yes, there are two types of carnet.
However, here, we only refer to the CDP. The ATA carnet is not for personal transportation. It can be used for exhibitions or races and for many things other than vehicles. Russia has a system for temporary import of personal vehicles that does not require a carnet.
The reason you are presumably having trouble with the difference is that many places do not see very many personal vehicles coming through customs, especially ports that mostly handle freight. Most of the personal foreign vehicles going to Vladivostok (I assume that is where you are going, as you would save a lot of problems going to a 'western' country first if you are going from the other end) are by ferry from Japan. And those are only like 10 a year.
The big problem will be getting the carnet stampted OUT at a land border. As Russia does not require a CDP for land transportation, the border crossing people probably will not stamp you out.
If your shipper won't handle you without a carnet, find another one or ship to Japan first with a CDP then take the ferry to Vladivostok.

Thanks for the info. I might take your advice and try and find another customs agent, or go with plan #2 which involves Korea and the Dong Chun Ferry.

The customs agent in Vlad is insisting on an ATA carnet for the motorbikes and personal effects. It appears to be wrong and I can't understand it, but that's what they want. They haven't mentioned a carnet de passage, ONLY an ATA carnet.

So stamping a CDP out will never be a problem, since I won't have one of those. They don't want one of those. Forget the CDP.

We're talking ATA.

Therefore stamping the ATA carnet out could be a problem, if it transpires that they insist.

Anyway, it's probably only a minor glitch. As far as the trip is going every thing is going nicely. We've got most of our gear, a heap of sponsorship, set up our bikes and saved a pile of money. Off to the Doc next week for our vaccines. Just the visas and this carnet problem to resolve....

I'll keep you posted.

Well, the agent may want a Carnet for you, but no telling what customs itself will ask for. You may be able to pass customs with and ATA carnet, but once on the road, it does not give you permission to drive.
The following image is what I have gotten in the past after making customs declaration. This was from the Kazakh-Russian border, but I got the same thing in Vlad. Try forwarding it and telling them you want one of these issued. This is the magic paper that every police checkpoint will want to see. Police like official papers with stamps on them!
(I have blocked out personal information)
http://www2.gol.com/users/chrisl/jap...tempimport.jpg

Russian customs
 

Bartman,

I still travel to Russia every month, and am writing this from Moscow now. I have never had any trouble entering russia whether its flying or by motorbike, with respect to customs.

My understanding is that unless you are bringing in specific items worth over USD 10,000, or cash worth over $10,000 then customs wont be interested. I bring in expensive laptops, and blackberrys everytime I come and go and there is not even the hint of needing any paperwork for them ... so the idea of needing paperwork for your tents and other assorted items is as far fetched as I could possible imagine.

I am with everyone else mate who says your agent is having a bit of a go.

Here is probably the best and mpost up-to-date resource on where carnets are required (note the difference between 'required' and 'accepted').

Carnet de Passage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

More info in the 'Trip Paperwork' forum

Dan

re the link to the list above

certainly the africa bit of that, from my experience, looks about right, the only off the wall bit being Gambia needing carnets for RHD only!

Best advice here is to bin your shipping agent. if you have difficulty understanding his muffled tone, ask him to stand up, 'cos that is clearly where he is talking from!!

for normal travel and personal equipment in and out of russia and former soviet states you need neither carnet. If your shipper doesn't understand this most fundamental part of your planning what else doesn't he know. I wouldn't have much confidence in a so called expert who knows so little.

Thanks moggy.

We've ditched the Russian agent. I'm going via Korea now and taking the ferry. It's a lot more expensive, but I think it's a safer/better option.

Time to some more homework, then!

Anyone had any problems flying into Korea with a one way ticket, and catching the ferry?

The cost of freighting the bikes by bonded truck from Busan to Sokcho is US$350. Does this sound about right?

Does the Dong Chun still go Sokcho to Zarubino, or are they going to Vladivostok direct? Having a bit of trouble reading the Korean! :funmeteryes:

Cheers guys.

ride!
 

You might even consider riding the bikes to Sokcho! :scooter:
Your bikes would appreciate it more than being cooped up in a truck.

Cheers Chris. Riding bikes in Korea opens up a whole host of other problems though - insurance, import duty, registration, customs officials, cops, etc. I know the bikes would love a good thrashing out there, but I'm not sure it's worth the hassle for a couple of hours on the bike. :funmeterno:

Cheers.

Zero progress. None, nada, zip.

This is a f* waste of time. Now the Koreans want an ATA carnet so that I can get into Russia! at least that's what I'm getting from their broken English.

I'm getting absolutely nowhere, except I've just added about $3000 to the cost of the trip by choosing to go to Korea. And they still want an ATA carnet.

No point loosing sleep over it though. I guess I better just shell out the $15,000 for the ATA carnet...

Direct quote from Korean customs agent:

"ATA carnet needed when they declear customs at Vladivostok with their
motor bikes which is not commercial cargo in Russia
But that is for travel through Korea & Russia."

Thanks.

I'M in the same boat
 

Bart,
Man I have given up on Korea as well.
To complex.
I am flying myself and the machine into Vladivostok from Seattle about June 3.
If we can meet up we can fight the Russian customs together.
Let's find an English speaker in Vlad to help us out.
No job too tough if the money's enough.
Bill

If you are going to get a carnet, why don't you get a CDP and go via Japan?
If you have a carnet (CDP, not ATA), Japan is almost a 100% sure bet.
Most people get through customs in Vlad in a couple days if going on the weekly Japan-Russia ferry. http://bisintour.com/
While carnet is needed in Japan, (unless the situation changed since last year)carnet is not needed in Vladivostok if taking this ferry.)
Japan info here: http://www2.gol.com/users/chrisl/japan/index2.html

I have found a very simple solution to all my carnet worries.

Don't get a carnet, pay the import duty deposit instead.

On a credit card!

Most credit cards (in NZ at least) offer 55 days interest free on credit cards. So provided you leave the country you're traveling in and pay the readies back to your credit card provider within the 55 days it won't cost a dime.

Super simple. Just involves shuffling numbers... Maybe I should become a stock broker? :eek3:

Cheers guys. The nice people up at Visa have made all my worries vaporise. Priceless and all that.

Cheers.

Just don't forget to ask to get the temporary import paper I showed on a previous post.
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...3-2#post127368
Otherwise, you will have problems at the 5 or 6 police checkpoints you will encounter every day.
A pemanant import will mean you need a Russian registration and plates: A very difficult proposition.

I expect that in the end you will find that you don't need a carnet or to pay import duties. From personal experience (ferry Japan to Russia) and other friends' (including Korea to Russia), you will probably simply be issued a temporary import permit and be required to re-export the bike before it expires.
Brett Dean from Australia mentioned in the post below that he had the temporary import procedured done by the ferry company in just a couple hours.
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...362#post119066