handling of bike with hard panniers
 

hi all, i've never travelled on a bike with hard panniers and being very new to this kind of thing just wondered how they will change the handling of the bike if at all.maybe soft panniers would be better ,if anyone can help that would be great thanks :mchappy:

Hi Ben...

You will find more information than you can digest about this subject if you search some older threads. THOUSANDS of "hard vs soft" debates out there..

In a but shell, hard metal panniers are HEAVY, expensive and dramatically effect the handling and centre of gravity of a motorcycle. That doesn't mean you won't get used to them, but it's something to consider if you intend to take dirt roads, gravel etc or don't want to be breaking your back lifting the bike up.. Depending on where you travel too, you will potentially have to have them welded, repaired etc because the frames and boxes DO break in falls.. They are far from bomb proof.

Soft bags are cheap, light, don't require heavy frames and can be repaired by anyone with a needle and thread. On average you will save about 15kg of weight going soft (A LOT). You can get waterproof ones too so don't worry about that. The ONLY disadvantage is that they don't give the "illusion" of security that metal boxes do.. I've never seen a metal pannier that I couldn't open with a large screwdriver though..

Don't dismiss plastic "GIVI" style boxes. They are an in-between solution. I've traveled loads with them and they actually crash better than my metal ones (they flex rather than just crush and split).

Where are you going ? What type of riding will you do ?? What bike are they going on ??

thanks for reply,my bike is a 660 tenere and not sure where i'm going as very new to all this but europe and maybe north africa are calling i think,

On that bike, keep the luggage soft and light..

Theres a lot of sand in north Africa ;)


My mate Craig who I rode part of Africa with used some ex army panniers on his 660 Ten.... The same ones I used on my DRZ too... Mine were already 30 years old and I crashed, smashed and battered them and they didn't even fray anywhere. Fantastic...

VERY tough and strong and only £40 NEW from Silvermans..

GREEN MOTORCYCLE PANNIERS

http://www.silvermans.co.uk/LargeIma...es/54013-1.jpg







Not waterproof though so you'd need inner dry bags. Ortlieb make great motorcycle panniers too but they're not cheap.. Depends on your budget.

thanks ted,think your right as i;ve just seen your beat up metal panniers on your site,great pictures and good to see i'm not the only one to fall off .

If you're not falling off, you're not trying hard enough ! :innocent:

that's good news and makes me feel much better about being s--t on a bike

Ted's right. But just to add to that. I've done 2 bike trips with hard luggage now and being from the same corner in the work as you (just across the channel though) I've only just now given up on the European ideal which is all based on ideas from people from the same block where proper dirt riding is next to non existent. So it all depends on what type of riding you want and whether you end up enjoying riding dirt and start pushing it. If the answer is yes stay away from hard and even stop looking a single stitched soft bags which I'm guessing the cheap ones are. The Andy Straps are a little step up and in the bush here in Oz they're know to tear at the seams. Even from securing straps.

I've tried both zega and matal mule boxes. Ended up taking the metal mule through Asia and they failed to some extent. Fine for putting up with things, but if you want to start getting a bit sporty on the dirt bits they're gone.

Then designed my own with that experience in mind with the attempt to keep the COG as close to the bike's COG but my skill had improved past their usefulness (which isn't very much skill to have that happen) and the investment was a waste. Then I tried saddle bag type soft bags (Steel Pony) with a light rack but I started riding trail bikes through tight trails and they didn't do any more either. It's the same weight distribution as hard luggage but with a weight reduction. So I'm using the Giant Loop system now which forces you to pack like a smelly lightweight backpacker (not the blokes and galls carrying a 80l bag at the back and a 30l back on the front through Khoa San Road which I used to be one off) and is a setup that gets the weight to the bike's COG as close a possible when packed correctly. So far so good.

It's whatever it is that you want though, and sometime you can't predict what you want until you try something. I reckon the biggest mistake is to try on the trip which most including myself do even though it's a well know advise. And be willing to ditch something when you're not happy or have doubts. Everyone's different.

thanks for the reply

Just a note on the hard panniers, yes they are expensive, but with proper padlocks they can be secured properly.

I have been using the Happy Trails system and with them, when I crash on hard rock stuff, they end up protecting my legs and even give me a chance to slide out from under when the bike is on me :)

I have carried a laptop in one for over 250,000km so far with no damage and no leakage.

I have since upgraded to the HT quick release system and am far from happy. mainly because even crashing in soft sand rips them off the frame and leaves me waiting for a passerby to get the bike off. I intend to revert these back to normal release system which will give me better protection.

Cheers
TravellingStrom

There are good hard panniers out there as well as bad ones ,similarly there are good and bad soft bags .
Any weight added to the rear of the bike will affect handling , if you want razor sharp sports bike handling , leave all your luggage at home .
If you want to carry stuff then you have to adapt ,very simple huh ?

The problem with hard bags is that most people go for huge ones , when they simply don't need that much room .Also the prices are out to lunch .
Soft bags can also be a pain in the arse if they aren't secured properly and leak.

I've used both and don't really have any preference ,but tend to use hard bags for long distance road work .

It's important to keep the weight as far forward as possible and as near the centre of gravity of the bike as you can get . - If you are not carrying a pillion ,then why have the panniers sticking out behind the rear wheel ?

if hard panniers give some protection then they must be all good?

That's a toss of the coin mate .....

They either stop the bike crushing you or they crush you themselves...

I got my lower leg/ankle trapped under mine after a gravel crash. If it wasn't for my mega big Tech 10 boots, I would of had broken bones for sure...

If you are on rough trails and will have to put your feet down often ,then it's better to go with soft bags to avoid the bags hurting your legs .
On the asphalt it can be a different story and the hard bags could likely save your legs in a slow speed tumble .

A high speed tumble is a gamble with either kind of bags .
Motorcycling is a dangerous business , we all know that - don't we ?

The trouble with most hard panniers is they are slightly wider and much lower than your bars so if you don't allow for this you can inadvertently knock car wing mirrors whilst filtering, or worse, explode a pannier against a bollard, causing the bike to be fired in to railings.......Damage to bike and pride....
If you are carrying weight on the back it's worth considering increasing the preload which will help keep the steering geometry something like standard, and maintain ground clearance.
You could spend a small fortune on an after market shock with remote pre-load adjustment so you can easily change it to suit the load and conditions.

so i think we should all sell the bike and get a car because it's much safer than on two wheels ,only joking

I built this luggage for these three Tenere's, they have just finished a trip from south Africa to Ireland, they worked fine for them, kept everything dry and held up to crashing about 100 times.There about 36lt and two different styles a angled bottom style and a straight side pannier built with a solid rivet construction, the rivet construction is super strong. One pannier had to be repaired after he was hit from behind by a car in Namibia the left pannier took the full force of the crash and that guy said that pannier saved his leg, sometimes they help, sometimes they dont. Locky.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p..._5708256_n.jpg


http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p..._7056022_n.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p..._5362849_n.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p..._3723513_n.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p...8_163084_n.jpg

great pictures,looks like lots changed on these bikes before the big trip.are the basic tenere not upto it as standard?:confused1:

Forgot about that. Having something on the bike wider out of your vision is just plain dangerous. It ended one of our trips when an oncoming car decided to overtake at the last minute flattening the pannier out of view and launch my wife and her bike into a tree lined ditch. Luckily didn't hit a tree.

I also admire people's confidence in padlocks. Like Ted said, they're not hard to break into. The wide ones do keep the bike off the ground but also fling the bike around on tough terrain increasing the risk of a tank slapper and high siding. The narrower ones tend to trap the leg under it. Try lifting that thing off your leg when you're on your own.

With some rack-less soft luggage you would have been able to punch through that feet on the pegs. :Beach: Just kidding.

You got a ride report somewhere?

When i fitted up the luggage the bikes were pretty much standard, a few bolt on's, crash bars racks, different hand guards, duck tape here and there. I dont have a RR, im just the luggage builder, i have a DR in the shed now fitting up for a long way round style trip, i build a lot of 1200GS luggage.
I build my pannier frames with atachment points so i can also fit a alloy support plate for soft luggage and they have extra tie down points that will take the 2 inch wise stretch straps that Andy makes, i get customers that have both soft and hard luggage because there are people out there that like to use either, the F800GS has both fitted, he uses the soft bags for weekend more off road and the hard bags if he and the misses are going a bit softer. I only build hard luggage but i dont bag the soft bags, i work in with them.
Cheers Locky.


http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p...28-4-10018.jpg

Hard or Soft - 10 cents
 

This is my experience and I am sure it will not suit everybody.

On the road I went with givi style. 2 x 44ltr panniers 1 x 50 top box. That was for two up 3 months camping. We ended up mounting a frame on the top on the top box for the tent with a pacsafe mesh around it. You have to put as much weight in the panniers as possible and do it evenly. Leaving the top box for light stuff that you want access to more regularly. This set was reasonably secure as all boxes lock on to the mounting frame. If we had to leave the bike somewhere for a long period a 10mm stainless cable was threaded thru the boxes, the bike frame and a power pole and then covered. It turned out that we could have gone a fair bit smaller on the sizes...

Attachment 4772

Off road I used all soft luggage. The top bag's slot for the hoop tore in one stack but was then strapped on. Other than they no probs. I also find that when riding off road standing up on the pegs keeps you away from the bike in crashes and even helps avoid some..

Attachment 4773

The security side of it, all you can do is make it hard for the thieves. Make it take too long or not worth the effort. If they really want it they will take it.

I've done long trips with a wide array of luggage from two-up and everything strapped to the rear packrack, to topbox and hard panniers, to soft panniers and to underseat storage with a large topbox.

I find the last option best but you only get it if you ride a maxiscooter.

For me, hard vs. soft isn't really an issue, the each have their strengths/weaknesses but the additional weight of a hard pannier is frankly very little in the overall scheme of things. I think the options can be summarised as follows:

Hard - expensive, more secure and waterproof, easy to remove to take into a hotel room.
Soft - cheap, less secure, things will get when it rains, harder to remove/strap on.
Topbox - moderate pricing, secure, waterproof, but watch out when riding on corrugations as they can snap your subframe.

just wondered how big the panniers are in your photos,they look a perfect fit not to wide as i think that is important cheers

I use plastic luggage all the time... Why they're rare on overlanders bikes must be down to an image thing. They don't look cool but, for me they are a great compromise between weight and security/ease of use.. You can usually pick up a second hand set of panniers for £100 on ebay.

Have you ever tried to break into a givi box ???? VERY difficult. Much harder than an aluminium one. I remember trying to get into one that came in on a PX bike with no key in the dealership.. We had to remove it to fit another one. The plastic just flexes and you can't get a good purchase on it with a crowbar etc..Took us ages to get it off and required drilling in the end. Depends on the design of the box though. The cheap plastic boxes are CRAP.

I can open any metal box (no matter what lock is on it) within 10 seconds with a crowbar/tyre lever/screw driver. The locks are held on with soft pop rivits or 6mm soft bolts.. It's like they were built by thieves for thieves lol....

Sounds like you have crap soft bags... There are loads of very water proof soft bags available. Ortliebs to name one. My old army panniers just flung over my rack and had four clips to hold them on. Took no time at all. I could carry all my gear into a hotel in one go rather than two-three journeys with the heavier boxes I had.
:thumbup1:

i've decided a trailer has got to be the best but soft top or hard top? ha ha

... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :lol2:

""
I can open any metal box (no matter what lock is on it) within 10 seconds with a crowbar/tyre lever/screw driver. The locks are held on with soft pop rivits or 6mm soft bolts.. It's like they were built by thieves for thieves lol....
""

I can slash open any soft bag within 2 seconds with a pocket knife ,plus I can smash open any plastic case with a sledgehammer .
Plus plus I can fart and blow your bike over !
:rofl::mchappy:

do you think the gs could cleanes my weak riding skills?

haha exactly... NO luggage is secure at all.... It's all an illusion.

No, but it will definitely increase you mechanic's skills and empty your bank account at the same time :D

Of course it does! It sure cleansed my weak riding skills. Short of riding on water, I can do it all now... :innocent:

i can't believe it won't ride on water ,bmw have a lot to answer for

My XT cost more than my Rotax. Just saying...... ?c?

All my hard luggage leaked. They're not as waterproof as people make out to be. Key with all luggage is to have stuff that absolutely can't get waterproof stored in a waterproof roll top closure bag. Who cared if your shampoo case gets wet so long as my sleeping bag doesn't. Don't even care if my tent is wet. Pack your stuff smartly and you can get away with cotton shopping bags. On a side note, all my waterproof inner bags were torn at the end of the trip because of the rubbing and pulling them in and out of hard luggage. Not so with soft. After a repair job you can also say bye bye to keeping your gear waterproof (even with innner bags) with hard. With soft unless I'm not sure. Haven't had a good run of gravel rash with them yet. Anyone?

Ted, you've got to crash harder. What the repair plan for shattered givi's? Has anyone cracked a pelican case?

Is that a result of wind strength Dodger, or does the bike instantly keel over when hit by the aroma? :innocent:

hmmmm, i'm not too sure really. I've never had one break on me yet.

I've heard of people melting cracks together with a soldering iron or just a plastic patch held on with epoxy.

With BIG cracks, you can patch again with a piece of plastic/mild steel using pop rivits or small bolts.

The major benefit of the plastic stuff is that it ALWAYS keeps it's shape..


The BMW "extendable" luggage on the GS650's is the worst EVER though. My travel partner in Africa had these and they were a constant curse. Every topple (mud, sand etc) had them implode or fall apart. They whole box would then have to be removed, battered, shaped, fiddled with.. Fisher Price wouldn't put their name to them...NIGHTMARE !!

so guys we have talked about this and the answer is soft or hard?

The choice is yours and yours alone...

I've tried them all. I started with plastic, went to expensive aluminium and now I wouldn't travel overland with anything but soft...

Although, if I was in Europe and had no challenging off-road, I'd use plastic !

I suggest you but a set of old army canvas bags for £30 and give them a go. If it doesn't work for you it's much less of a sting to the wallet than spending £500-£1000 on metal boxes.

...aluminum boxes :innocent:

My training regime incorporates a diet of 3 day old steak and kidney pie ,brussel sprouts and eight pints of Marston's Pedigree .
Power and aroma are sometimes unpredictable.
But I find Beemers keel over the easiest ;one blast and the final drive falls apart ,another blast has the dealer coming to fetch the bike .
VStroms being a bit more aerodynamic can deflect the blast ,although the scorch marks may be embarrasing .[ on the bike that is ].

Well, what do you expect, Beemers are sensitive and sophisticated...:euro:

This than shows that YMMV is guaranteed. My F has been brilliant and predictable. But than I know the bike's little quirks. :innocent:


Statistically you'll end up with ali ones anyway. Until you find some local dirt riding IF you end up enjoying the challenges and end up seeking it. That picture through the sand should be a blast to punch trough. But the legs out with the hard panniers is all to familiar. It just sucks with boxes bolted on. In Bolivia Altiplano NP on a heavily sand corrugated section near the border with Chile a bloke on a new HP2 came the other way. I asked him what the story was and he turned around because his gear was just making it impossible to do it enjoyably. To much rattle as well. doh

A russian guy I know who has ridden around the world once summarised this debate .... not saying I agree with him - at least not to this degree ... but his quote was simple and catchy:

"The pros use soft bags, the amateurs use metal boxes."

My experience is probably more like ... the experienced increasingly use soft bags, while the inexperienced are more likely to begin using metal boxes. i.e. There are many who started with metal boxes who switch to soft bags as they get more experienced. Many of the guys posting in this thread advocating soft bags are guys who began touring with metal boxes. They converted.

In the other direction, there are very few who switch from soft bags to metal boxes as they get more experienced.

There are experienced riders out there who still ride with metal boxes. But in most of those cases, its guys (or girls) who have never tried doing a long trip with soft bags.

Its an emotional debate ... and I will probably be flamed for having a pretty strong opinion on it. But I think I have enough experience to justify a strong opinion.

There are many threads on this site covering this ongoing debate of soft vs hard :) It may be worth your while to search them if you have doubts, read the opinions of others, and draw your own conclusions. beer

And you'll probably find a thread or 2 of me arguing for hard pannier. Please don't quote them in here. :helpsmilie:

Soft off road
Plastic on road

...and aluminum for either one :laugh:

Very well summed up Colebatch. I have to agree with everything you said. Oh and who is your Russian biker RTW'er friend? Sounds like a smart guy.

To answer the OP about handling which then turned into a Hard vs Soft vs Plastic debate:

Added unbalanced weight will contribute to poor handling but there are things you should do whatever luggage you choose. Keep in mind that each bike has it's own max carrying capacity.

This is not just in reference to the suspension, handling or tyre capabilities but also to not stress the frame and engine beyond its designed capacity.

To compensate for extra weight and overloading, you should do the following:
1) increase tyre pressure - I usually run 2-3 psi higher
2) check oil more regularly
3) check/adjust suspension setup - you may need higher rated spring(s)
4) increase stopping distances - more load means it will take longer to stop
5) keep heavy items as low and central as possible
6) keep weight in topbox to minimum (to much weight will cause the bike to tail steer in soft surfaces and can cause an accident)
7) adjust front/rear balance - where possible redistribute the weight to the front of the bike

With the right setup your bike should still handle as well as with just the rider with no luggage. BUT every rider should customise their bike setup for themself.

Ted started a good thread on this very topic here.

I think your last point is the most important, but I'd like to turn it around a little. The reality is that it's very rare for anyone to be able to add enough luggage such that it equals the weight of carrying a pillion.

If you truly want to get an idea of how much all that luggage is going to adversely affect your handling then simply get a bit of practice riding with a pillion. If you're fine with carrying the shifting weight of a pillion then the significantly reduced weight of immobile luggage is not going to be an issue.

My heaviest bike weighs a massive 430kg without rider or luggage, but all that weight almost disappears once you get above 5mph.

lots of you guys think soft is the way to go but don't really explain why and as a no nothing like me can't see it so please can you go in to detail about how they will make a difference off road cheers

as mentioned above, there are dozens of threads on this forum that go into that in a lot of detail. You do need to do a search and read up on the topic if there is not enough information being given to you in this thread.

Basically riding a big bike off road can be a bit like driving a 3 wheeled bus across a sand dune. Soft bags are considerably lighter (most set ups will save 12-15 kgs), and considerably safer (falling and trapping a leg under your soft bags is a non issue. Its a different story if your bike falls on your leg via hard boxes.

Weight is critical - ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL - if you are doing serious long distance dirt or off road riding. Did you watch Long Way Round? 2 guys who didnt know how its done, or what they were doing ... (was their first trip) ... decided to go on the heaviest possible bikes and then added 3 metal boxes AND a 90 litre roll bag each on top of that. They only had 2 serious off road / dirt road sections in the whole trip, Mongolia and the Road of Bones ... and they didnt really complete either of them. Mongolia was a real struggle and they wanted to quit it anyway - when luckily Russ rolled his truck allowing them to hot foot it by asphalt and train 2500 km away. Then they were unable to complete the Road of Bones - apparently because Charley hurt his back manhandling his 350 kgs of bike and luggage.

If thats what you want out of overlanding, go for metal boxes - its the fashion, the image. You will hate the off road and want to quit when you get to Mongolia and then you will drop your bike in every river crossing in Siberia before damaging your back picking the bike up out of the water.

or ... you can take the advice of people who do this a lot and think rationally and critically about the gear they choose, and choose a lighter bike and soft bags.

#
Well said !!! :thumbup1:

To add to that about the weight debate and why it's so important or all important we have to go back to our highschool physics days. Riding a bike is experimenting with all the physics you've learned. The debate about why a bike self balances under momentum still hasn't been answered BTW (it's not the rake of the forks. That's been discounted) so don't feel bad if you don't get this.

On advanced turning training on road surfaces you're taught to lean your weight into the corner and with the shoulder leaning into the turn and the head vertical. More advanced is to put your bum cheek onto the side of the seat of the turn. This it to put the stress onto the contact patch and force the bike into the turn something that's unnatural to it by moving the bike COG into the turn away from the contact patch. To speed this up the more weight further out from the contact patch the tighter you can turn with more control (there is a limit). This summarises as: weight used = bike static weight + body weight. leaving out momentum and distance from the contact patch. With luggage on the bike the (static) weight is increased and puts more stress onto the contact patch. This is not ideal because the COG of the bike it not centred because the luggage ruins the engineers efforts on the bike balancing and suspension setup. So for road performance the weight issue is just as valid but for different reasons. FWIW this is where the pillion argument falls over because it's not static weight. They're meant to move with the rider hence increasing bike control.

The technique above assumes a perfect traction from the ground surface to prevent washing out. Riding on natural / dirt surfaces this technique is completely opposite from above. The name of the game is to keep the COG exactly and perfectly above the contact patch at all times. Mostly on the front wheel. Master this and you master riding off road. It's not as easy as it sounds. Add timing and forward and rear ward weight adjustments and it becomes a constant effort to move left, right, rear and forward on the bike depending on the ground conditions which is (partly) why the pro's stand up nearly all day. This is also done due to momentary forces. The closer the weight is to the contact patch vertically and horizontally the better.

This is the important bit. The limit of control on an off road bike riding off road is the amount of weight the rider has to counter act the weight of the bike. The heavier the bike, the more weight the rider needs to shift the COG above the contact patch. Less balance means the rider can't force the bike to turn as well. Hence smaller / lighter bikes react more nimbly. But this wouldn't be the case if the weight balance ratio would be equal to a rider with a big bike. A midget on a TTR still wouldn't control the bike as well. For this reason I've got massive respect for the female Dakar riders. They've got less weight to work with and still manage to ride those things better that I'll ever manage. They have to use the techniques perfectly and to the fullest degree.

Going back to luggage. This is static weight meaning that unless you make yourself heavier to counter act these forces away from the COG on the contact patch you'll make the whole thing hard work and slower, scarier, less accurate, meaning more corrections and less fun to ride. There is a limit to this because the total weight is still a factor. This is why people with some experience tend to flock to soft luggage. As said, in my case this took 2 trips and getting a trail bike to make this happen. If I'd still live in NW Europe (no off road opportunities) I'd probably still be on the hard stuff. Probably pelican. I think a lot of people from areas with little adventure riding that do use soft right away have a motorcross background. Cause they know all about making things lighter.

That's it, ...forget about luggage, plastic-, soft- or otherwise... I'll just pack my toothbrush and credit card - problem solved bier

Yes, and no. I realise I am in the majority on this one but I have spent many years on the road riding all sorts of unsuitable machinery in all the wrong conditions.

What are we really trying to achieve? The vast majority of our riding is done on bitumen NOT off road. The vast majority of our off road riding is on tracks travelled regularly by locals in non off-road vehicles.

Yes, it's great to have a super light bike and premium price super light / super compact luggage but what are we really trying to achieve here?

International travellers are usually spending extended time on the road and require a few creature comforts. They are also not usually facing tight deadlines (or why else would we do these rides), and an extra day here and there spent taking a "not the best bike for the conditions" vehicle through difficult conditions is not a major problem - if it is then we can usually change our plans accordingly.

So where do you compromise? Do you want the lightest bike with the lightest (most expensive) luggage so you can get the farthest off the beaten track in the shortest possible time, or do you want some creature comforts and are prepared to pay the price - going a little slower and taking a little more time? You still get there in the end either way - look at the people who did these rides 80-90 years ago, the roads were a lot worse then and the equipment was much heavier and a lot less reliable and there wasn't a posse of other RTW riders a day or two behind them who they could ask for help if they really got stuck.

Hmm, then again maybe I'm just getting old. :)

I have the Andy Strapz soft bags, they're excellent. The only time they've failed on me in the last 2 years has been recently when I crashed my bike at 80km/h and they came slightly apart at the seams. I had these resewn by a guy on the street for 15 Bs, like $2 and they're good to go again!

A few other benefits:

• They look cool
• They're really light
• Very waterproof
• Can hold heaps of stuff
• You can carry both bags into your hotel/hostel room at the same time - I don't think this is possible with two large metal boxes. As a matter of fact I can carry all of my gear at one time.
• Easy to adapt to the motorcycle
• Very strong
• Only take as much room as what you put in them

Also security has never been an issue for me.

Speaking of light bikes, my ride is a little DR200, it's a great setup for off-roading, though if I had the money I'd upgrade to a DRZ400.

Here she is :thumbup1:
http://i.imgur.com/pP0Ex.jpg

Also, imagine being in this situation on a 1000+cc bike with hard cases? This was in the middle of nowhere...
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._4334232_n.jpg

My opinion is that big bikes and hard luggage have their place but it's sure as hell not in Bolivia :thumbup1:

This is why I initially talked about what riding you enjoy. Typically the first timer has no off road experience and usually end up hating it because off the wrong gear. Some keep trying to find ways to improve, other just don't get into that environment. How many threads asking about road conditions aren't there. Often the best places are the hardest to get to. I couldn't make it to Uruya because of the setup I had. That sucked. Crossing the altiplano would have been heaps more enjoyable if I wouldn't have to wrestle the bike. Sure you can get on with it, but it's hard work. Avoiding that is the biggest creature comfort. Some people avoid going to those places as a means to avoid battling the overweight bike. To me that's the weirdest thing for a biking trip you can do. To me it's all about riding out of the way places away from the backpacking trails and rental cars etc and have a blast doing it. Not just for the scenary. What can't you bring with soft luggage you can with hard?

The cost thing is wrong in my view. GL is by some considered expensive, but try getting hard luggage including mounting hardware for that price. But with the GL all you need it that, no mounting hardware required and a typical roll closure bag behind it. Some roll closure bags for some stuff to go inside it. Pretty cheap I reckon.

The same compromise it true with tyres. I run only knobbies because I prefer to cater for the harshest terrain and find the little compromise on the road is negligible. I do the same on choice of luggage which to me makes the most sense for the affects on handling as explained earlier.

Positioning of weight on the bike will change the handling. Hard or soft doesn't matter as long as it's static. If the extra weight moves then the handling will change. Unless of course you can get your panniers to move like a pillion. :clap:

Ahhhh my good man ! I'm not sure which luggage you prefer but one of the main advantages of soft, is that it's also WAAAAAY cheaper !

And because it's soft, doesn't mean it has to be small. My soft bags must be about 80L combined. There is no luxury lost there.

They weigh 20kg less than my old M-Mules and fit the same stuff.

I think I am having a déjà vu here, four pages of it...

Hey Ted, it's not the weight or price of the bags I'm on about it - it's the premium price people pay for superlight weight tents and other gear that goes in the bags. I'm debating it on ADV at present where my argument that spending $350 on a tent to save a kilo in weight doesn't make any sense when my elcheapo tent cost a tenth of the price and does the job just as well (for me at least).

I'm right there with you bro !! My £15 Tesco tent actually lasted longer than a £120 one which actually weighed more....

Cheap and disposable is the best way ever... There's nothing worse than carting around some expensive, bulky item that you hardly use or want to change, but can't ditch or give away because it cost too much..

I've done it too many times doh


When I finished my trip in South America, I ended up giving away an expensive riding suit and sleeping bag because I couldn't carry it home. I left a £200 tent in Buenos Aires because I got sick of carrying it too..

In Malawi I sold a £150 for £40 because I was bored of it and ended up ditching loads of other stuff that I was sick of carrying..

I'm like a rolling overland equipment charity... doh

so whats next mate? ditching the 15 quid tesco tent for a bag of jelly babies? :)

The £15 is the only one I have left after leaving my others around the world lol...

I don't think i'm even going to carry camping and cooking stuff next time. Maybe just a tiny back packer tent for emergencies..

Hostels are bloody everywhere now and are often cheaper than camp sites.. Plus, you get to meet tons of great people.

Like a 1200GSA ?

$350.- for a tent...:eek3: HA! ...try Euro 759.- or US$1,092.- (1.44 EX-RATE) for a 2-folks tent :laugh:.

Not so much for the weight, but for good quality equipment. I don't buy into "elcheapo" doing an equally good job. But, we all have different expectations of our gear...

Although off the topic of the initial thread I agree with T.REX63 I bought a coleman tent which the perfect size, packed and up, weight the whole deal. Then I spent at least 30mins at every second site repairing snapped poles.:thumbdown: Then the zipps started to fail...I think I will be buying quality this time..unless i can buy the same tent alone the way..maybe Touring Ted has the idea about hostels...

Depends where you go I think, like if you were in Australia or the USA you wouldn't want to be paying $80 a night for a crappy motel room in between the cities.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAAH !!!! :thumbup1:

you are learning mate :)bier

All of the best places I've spend the night have been camping. Heaps better than a feral guesthouse with sagged beds and 200 year old pillows.

Have to agree with that, we have a Hilliberg Kieron GT4 and we have used it through Europe etc, taking it next year on our American trip for 2 years or so

Quote:

Originally Posted by [B Touring Ted[/B]]I don't think i'm even going to carry camping and cooking stuff next time. Maybe just a tiny back packer tent for emergencies.. Hostels are bloody everywhere now and are often cheaper than camp sites.. Plus, you get to meet tons of great people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by colebatch you are learning mate

Hostels have their place and are good for certain things like getting tinea and bed bugs and having 18yo teenagers waking you up at 3am when they get back from partaying and leave the light on and then start to snore. :thumbdown:

Personally if I'm going to meet people then I'd rather it be locals and not acne faced tourists on a RTW backpacking drinking binge.dohdoh

I've met and kept in contact with more people especially locals by setting up my tent in someones farm, paddock or back yard then I have by staying the night in a cheap smelly dirty hostel. Not to mention the free food and beverage that we regularly get when camping at campsites. But I do agree that less is more, and if the tent space is so precious then hostels might be a better dryer, warmer option (especially since you're with soft luggage :freezing:) but for us riding 2up, it's cheaper to camp then to pay for 2x bunk beds in a hostel. And it's even more expensive if we want privacy!

... but I digress. The OP was about handling, we seem to have lost the plot somewhere in the past 5 pages. :rofl:

I think peoples idea of hostels are rather biast.. They're not all full of 18 year old ravers....

It really depends where you are. If you're on bondi beach then yeah, if you're in Swaziland, no !!

There are many hostels which are very civilized as well as being chilled out melting pots..

You really have to do your research....

Rule 1...... Don't go to the first three hostels at the top of the list in the lonely planet ! ;)

And there's the problem... planning stops. Cant be arsed:innocent:

Cheers,
John

teds right on the hostels there is some real ok places with great people

The one thing we have found on our travels is that there isn't always a backpacker conveniently placed where we want to stay thus the tenting suits us far better, we usually end up somewhere off the beaten track.

Our Hilli Keron GT4 is 5.6kg true weight so I put it behind me in an Ortlieb 620 35L bag, something to rest on and keep the weight more central which does help handling.

For my wife and I with 2 lids, 4 boots 2 jackets, 2 pants etc the vestibule on the GT4 is mint in less than ideal weather.

Like the op, I want the bike to handle well so we are in the process of finding a proprietary rack or if it comes down to it I will build our own to bring the weight forward (or more central) and mount the side cases closer behind our legs than a lot of racks offer, neither of us will be carrying passengers so the more central the weight the better esp for the wife at 5'2".

Great thread and great to compare soft and hard, we are using Pelican cases being watertight and lockable etc and they crash well.

So on that note, we will be on two DR650's, does anyone know of a good proprietary rack we can buy in Alaska/America that we can have more central mounting, welcome the input, cheers all. :thumbup1:

To me this is an idyllic experience which I haven't yet managed to replicate without camping. The site was right behind me. Found it by chance and decided to end the day there. Had enough time to find a bottle of wine and were joint by some Polish cyclist who moved 200m down stream for the same isolation experience but were great fun to share a bottle wine with at a camp fire for dinner. Priceless.

http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/r...p/P9181298.jpg

Beats the shit out of finding the public bathhouse in shitsville Moron Mongolia in the dark.

But going back on track like turbo, you don't need a 2 man tent if you're on your own. You should be able to get your mat, sleeping bag and bivi or single man tent in a roll (closure) bag. I stuff both the sleeping bag and tent. Keep the outer separate for when it's wet. This should only weight about 5-6kg and can make a nice back rest for long ride on the slab, but close to COG for riding off road.

It's just plain awesome to go hard off the beaten track, through beautiful country with the knowledge that you've got everything you need to stop and enjoy the surrounds when and wherever you want getting away from the concrete jungle and pollution. :palm:

But that's just me. :offtopic::smartass:

I very good point ! Coming the think of it, the very best night/experienced I've had have been wild camping...

But also like you said, you only need the very basic kit for a night in paradise.. I'd always carry a tiny backpacker tent and a ground mat.

I agree!
My trips are usually a mix of camping, hotels, hostels etc. The best experience usually comes from bush-camping.
For me it's essential not to have some kind of holy destination for the day, I carry enough food and petrol to mess around and stop at nice places and maybe take a detour or two. To do this it's necessary (for me) to carry a tent, cooking-stuff, sleepingbag etc. But it sure beats traveling from hostel to hostel on the main roads.

I use alu-panniers so I'm probably some kind of amateur but I really don't care. For me soft-luggage is fine for short trips, but I don't go the minimalist route on longer trips because I find that it limits my experiences.
Yes the panniers were expensive but so far they have lasted for 14 years and about 150kkm so I don't think the price is an issue.

http://actiontouring.com/pic/08_NAM_0102.jpg

Couldn't agree more, also security is easy and cheap with hard cases.

I do have to larf that we who ride with hard cases are supposedly amateur .. that holds as much weight as a small gust of wind, to me if the gear is doing what you want it to and how you want it to then you have the right gear.

People ask what is a good wine, I say it is the one that YOU enjoy, it can be a $150.00 dollar bottle but can still taste like crap or a $5.00 tasting great.

The only thing I would add is soft with a little less weight is fine in the extreme ADV/trail riding on soft ground where lite weight is an advantage but you bike choice will have a far greater bearing on that, this is why we are using DR650, little less than total creature comfort but great for the job and a great compromise between road/off road .

Taking South America as an example where off roading is pretty simple generally. With most of it on the gringo trails being gravels roads. However, there are bits where is plain sucks to be big and heavy. Usually you won't see big twins there much or those guys end up telling horror stories. Add to that large heavy luggage setups and it becomes worse. To me I can't see the point in taking a DR with its lightweight and adding heaps of weight unnecessarily which can be avoided with a bit of creativity and imagination.

Seeing as a picture tells a thousand words I'll throw in a few more. This picture was taken at the start of a river bed which became narrower with the rocks lager halfway up the shin. We ended up having to walk next to the bike through this where is was difficult to walk even. Ended up having to turn around with oncoming rain running out of ground clearance. The weight was to much to balance. That just sucks having to do that when we would have been able to manage without all that crap bolted on. We ride through that type of terrain at home all the time just fine. And it's become my benchmark for future setups.

http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/r...p/PC281919.jpg

This is the bolivian altiplano national park just near the guest house at lago colorado. Not at all the deepest wheel track but again a struggle on a bike weighing a bit under 300kg. This is just after my Mrs hit the edge of the wheel track losing her front end. There is just no correcting that with that weight. Got her leg stuck under the pannier with no way of getting out from under it. Luckily she wore cross boots. Not even a bruise but she did have a sore leg for days. I'm not saying that you can't tackle this with a big twin and panniers. We met a DL1000 on this track. But it just about sucks and every one ends up having a horror story or a winge about it when it should be an absolute highlight which it was for me. Not so much for the Mrs with less body weight and off road experience struggling in particular when the tracks cross others. It doesn't look like much on a picture but if you don't ride this terrain at home you'll struggle. Guaranteed. A friend who does ride this at home high sided at speed on an 990 there at a section with crossing tracks. You're meant to punch through at some speed, but there is always a risk. This section is at about 5000m altitude and breathing is a struggle. I want to do that ride with a 450 one day. :funmeteryes:

http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/r...p/P1082064.jpg
http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/r...p/P1092081.jpg

Either way, each to their own. But can we maybe start agreeing that hard luggage security is a myth? :blushing:

...No :biggrin:




P.S.: Cool pics BTW.

I joined this Forum so that I could learn lots of stuff to help me realise an ambition I have held for some 40 years, and that is to ride a bike from England to Melbourne. Once I get there, I will work out how I want to get back, but I'm taking a year off work so hope I have enough time to satisfy what it is that I want from the trip.

Shortly after the HUBB Meet at Ripley last year I took out Club Membership so that in my own small way I could help with the running costs of the Forum. This has been one of those threads which have made me seriously question whether or not I am up to the challenge, and I have become quite dispirited, yet, when I actually go back to what it is that has been getting me down, it's been the 'willy waving' posts which say things like "only amateurs use hard luggage", "real travellers use really light weight bikes", and "proper travellers make everything themselves and can service and maintain their bikes and kit with just a pocket knife and sticky-back plaster" :nono:

I'm going to follow Ali Baba's advice and just not care anymore. I've followed the bloggs of some of those who have advocated the above sentiments, and have been at a talk by one of them, yet I have also looked at the preparation the bike of one of them has gone through and realised that although I may have been in awe of them, I have very little in common with them, and I can live with that.

So, back to this thread, and I am still interested in how a bike handles when fully loaded with hard luggage.

Don't be disheartened. Do it the way you want to and is the way you're most comfortable with. In all honesty, my first try was my most memorable one. And it's hard to have less of a clue than that.hadn't discovered this site yet. Watch the video if that doesn't make sense. What was meant with colebatch's comment was that most people that do a trip multiple times and seek out the off road bits end up with soft for the reason I tried to explain with a bit of physics.

The line between friendly banter, sarcasm and subtle “put downs” gets sometimes a little blurry.

There are the self proclaimed experts, “know-it-alls” and some folks are just so full of themselves, it’s at best amusing. Mostly, what I am missing is context, a point of reference or benchmark. Only a few have the ability to see the bigger picture when giving advice on topics that are not just one way only.

And then, you have folks on this board who have circumnavigated the globe on bikes completely unsuitable, wrong tires, irresponsible luggage system and they have lived to tell about it – and, looking back, wouldn’t change a thing (again, it’s all about point of reference) doh

So, take from each comment what is useful to you and allow yourself to chuckle about the rest. :laugh:

And, a last word of advice …the best and most suitable bike for adventure travel is a R1200GS with lockable aluminum panniers. There are no two ways about it. Any other opinion is utterly wrong and immature… :smartass:

i like your style t rex.think you got it spot on apart from the german bike ?

I've met some people who have "failed" but I don't think I have met anyone who have failed because they used the wrong gear. Some might have changed their plans a bit but that's okay. I think it's most about your mind, if you want to do it you can do it.
In my book it's better to try and fail then not try at all.

Personally I think the HUBB is better now then it used to be a few years back but I fully see your point and you will probably meet the same discussions on the road some day.
When I left for my first big trip on a motorbike (50kkm in Africa) I used a standard BMW R80GS with hard luggage and I used a BMW riding suit, which I still use. If I had done the same today and posted my plans here on the HUBB guess what would have happened....
This trip was maybe the best year of my life.



It handles worse then without luggage. :innocent:
Weight is always an issue and some bikes carry weight better then others, for me the extra 10 kg has never been an issue. Personally I think deep mud and places with very big rocks are the worst but when I travel I take it slow on these places anyway.

Sure I have been places where I could have traveled faster with a lighter bike but I've never turned around because of the weight of the bike. I have been forced to turn around because of range (water and petrol). Personally I think it's more difficult to increase your range with a soft-setup.
Even if I'm an amateur I would say that I have been to many remote places with my boxes (Graveyard piste, Lake Chad route, northern Namibia, crossing Sahara alone in summertime etc) and hopefully I will visit more places with more or less the same setup.

I think one of the problem with boxes is that there is a lot of crap on the market. People buy expensive flimsy stuff and it brakes and they tell you that all boxes sucks. Even if I don't like sushi I love to eat other types of fish....
20 years ago I traveled a bit with leather-bags and I use some soft-luggage for shorter trips so I'm not saying it's useless. I Simply prefer alu-boxes on longer rides.

http://actiontouring.com/pic/01_ALG_0010.jpg

Have a nice trip!


Edit: What really makes the handling suffer is a heavy top-box or drybag!

I don't get this "Aluminium are for amateurs"...

If anything, it's the other way round. You need a fair bit of experience and miles under your belt to handle a heavy tin boxed bike, especially off road..

That is exactly why I always recommend soft bags to new riders or "amateurs" if they're planning on a non-Starbucks adventure.

do you think the to bm boys were amateurs when they went the long way round ?

Quit picking on Starbuck's. There is nothing wrong with riding your bike with aluminum boxes to Starbuck's! I like spending $8.95 on a cup of Fatfreefrappomochachino with whipped cream...:nono:

You are being very insensitive, Ted... :tt2:

http://trex63.smugmug.com/Travel/Ala...38_V69fV-L.jpg

Don't they have proper cups? Coffe in soft-cups sucks!

at that price they should have called it big bucks.

Yup, I know, that's why at home I only use aluminum... The advantages are unsurpassed...

http://trex63.smugmug.com/Miscellane...IMG14261-L.jpg

Hmmmmm is this bait ?? We haven't had a good E&C rant for at least a few weeks...doh

It matters not when you're on a sponsored Thomas Cook holiday with a small army running behind you to touch up your make up...

:D

Also, nothing wrong with looking good when on adventure travel. I for one ALWAYS take my curling iron and hair dryer even on shorter trips... call me vain...

i like the soft starbuck cups being new to coffee,do think the ali cups change the feel of the drink

Who needs a cup, drink directly from the pot!

http://actiontouring.com/pic/coffe.jpg

nice pot where did you get it ,think i may give up starbucks and go for the hard stuff

Clearly armatures, because it was their first really long trip. And, before them, adventure travel was hardly noticed... :innocent:

very true rex .so would this site be here and so great if the two actors hadn't been on there thomas cook holiday ,just a question ?

Sorry, I can't remember where I bough it but I'm sure you can find one here:

Galla Coffee: How a Stove-top Espresso Maker Works

On the other hand I've heard that Starbucks will open quite a few places in Norway in 2014 so maybe I'll sell mine, I will let you know :cool4:

Well i agree with Ted, while I was in the Army I used 58 pattern, old style webbing till a few years ago, it would suck up water like a sponge then shrink dry and be a pain, but lasted years! of very abusive treatment! I would use an otleib Roll bag, have used them diving too! still kept things bone dry, a few weeks a go Aldi where selling there Dry Bags £7. 40 ltr Sailing bag thtey go like hot cakes not as good as otleib but for £7! go figure, when ever I see them for sale or reduced I pick them up always a bargain, a right No Brainer.
I get my new bike this coming week, she comes fitted with Givi Top & Panniers, I know I will use the top box for everyday bimberling carrying stuff, but if I am going on a tour take it off & put my Otleib on there across the two panniers, as 1) get more in it 2) I just prefier it, payes your £££ takes your Choice