Aluminium panniers,best ones,opinions please
 

Hi,I have a K7 DL650 which has Suzuki panniers & top box,while these are great for "hostel hopping" I find their shape too restrictive for a longer trip which will involve camping gear. I plan to replace the top box with a rack so I can strap a decent sized Ortileb/Wolfman/similar bag to it as I have found that gives me more flexibility packingwise.
I have done some research on here & the web about Alu panniers (not interested in soft luggage for this,been there,done that) but still confused as to best option :helpsmilie:
I often have a pillion so need a reasonable capacity to cope with two peoples equipment,Tesch seem good but worried about the rack fitting my bike(silencer on one side only so wasted space on the other side);Metal Mule seem well made but very pricey & am not keen on a hinged lid;Touratech Pro would fit to bike well but have read some negative comments.
Any helpful comments gratefully received ?c?

I've got a set of these on my XT660Z, and I couldn't agree with any negativity on these. The original Zega panniers yes, they had some issues - especialy with the locks but the new stuff is pretty indestructable I would say. I didn't bother with the anodised ones, didn't see the need for spending an extra £100 and besides I quite like the 'used' look of the plain alloy ones, after a couple of days on the road. The Pro's come with multi safety catches on the locks, and a lanyard between the lid and the box, you can also 'hing' them on one of the locks so you don't need to remove the whole lid to get into them (like anything though, if a thief wants in, they will get in). The top loops are mounted flush with the lid, so you can still use them as a reasonable table / seat combo, and they will take the weight of a Tenere, not sure about the Strom though.

There are other options available, from modified ammo boxes that cost buttons (you then have to make them fit , paint them etc) but are a bit on the heavy side - not a problem if you're bike can take the extra weight. to the MM stuff, which I think is a bit over priced (but then so is TT, IMHO).

There is a post on here that has instructions on how to build your own panniers, so this would give you exactly what you want.

There's Allit Panniers that come it at 200 Euros

Klaus Grützner - Gepäcksysteme - Online Shop

And some others I've seen that are around £80 each - but for the life of me I can't remember who made them....

I have and like the Tesch boxes with the hinge-less lids. Can you fit a flatter silencer?
Mine are on an R100GS and look "balanced"

Another thing about the Tesch boxes, with a nice flat mounting surface, you mount them as far forward as you can for solo use. Then when you have a pillion, you mount them on the opposite sides and it gives extra room for your passenger :smartass:

John

These Alpos cases seem to be pretty good,and not badly priced.
Bykebitz Motorcycle Accessories Ltd ALPOS CASES AND FITTING KITS

Andy

I can not say best as that is up to you but good boxes that may work for you are

The Zera TT Suzuki V-Strom Parts and Accessories from Touratech-USA

The Jesse system Xplorermoto: Jesse Luggage Odyssey II Bags

The Metal Mules Bikes | Metal Mule

The Happy trails V Strom DL650 - KLR650 & Adventure Touring Motorcycle Luggage and Aluminum Panniers

All seem to to the job all have problems and all have failed, so do all boxes just the way of things.

At one time people said that the DL650 had some problem with the pipe and the subframe Jesse, TT, and Givi all had problems. Givi went so far as to say there was no way to make a rack fit the DL650 like there rack for the DL1000. A few years latter they made it, it works.

Most compensate for the one pipe with the rack or a bigger box the same way they did for the old BMW F650. So it not that big of deal. My system on my DL650 is a happy trail rack with boxes off my F650 so the bike looks a bit off when you look at it but rides fine. The rack compensate for the pipe so do the boxes. one thing about that rack is shield on the pipe is in the way of the rack so you will need to cut it or gust take it off.

daerr boxes
 

We use daerr boxes with Hepco&Becker racks on our 600 Tenere´s. See DÄRR - Trefferliste
They are very cheap in comparison to the other makes mentioned, and for us have proven to be good: 30 000 km from Holland to Cape Town and 40 000 km from Canada to Ushuaia (same boxes, same racks, minor welding needed).
If you fix the boxes with ratchet straps to the rack you can take them off the bike in under 1 minute.

Auke

They are all very expensive for what they are..

They are all very heavy.

They all require a very heavy frame to carry them.

They all bend out of shape from even minor falls.

They are all a pain to fix

They all made your bike as wide as a small car.


I practically ejaculated when I ordered and fitted my metal mule boxes.. I thought I was the "real deal"... Then I realised just how wide and heavy they made the bike.

Then, after a practically walking speed tumble in sand, one ripped off and bent all the complicated (but easy to use) fanstening system..

After hammering my £1000 luggage back to usable condition (sick feeling, trust me) I set off again and then in a much faster crash they ripped off completely turning themselfs into junk... Very hard to straighten, especially with your limited tool kit.

Now, if you are never going to drop or crash your bike, sure they are great for security and almost make you look as cool as Ewan Mcgreggor but a good set of sturdy soft bags make soo much more sense for overland travel.

Cheaper, dead easy to fix, take alot of abuse and just squash rather than break, MUCH lighter, require only a simple frame (if at all), much narrower, much easier to carry etc.

I'm a total soft luggage convert for any proper travelling.. Security is taken care of with packsafes if you're paranoid.

And, if you do damage them.... All they take is a large needle and thick thread to fix them. Pefect !

If you are certain that you want hard luggage PLASTIC Givi luggage is way better in my opinion.

It's also secure and hardwearing, much lighter and these tend to deform in tumble or crash and go back to their original shape. They are usually a fair bit cheaper too.. I paid £200 for a full set of plastic luggage for my Africa Twin of ebay and I love them.

If you do crack them, you can plastic weld them with melted coat hangers and a soldering or blowtorch.

Metal Fool
 

Me too.
Actually I was reasonably happy with the MM boxes. I feel sure I got lots of admiring looks on the M25 and even more in the Channel Tunnel.

All across Europe and half of Russia and no complaint - but then the tarmac ended.

Within half a day on good graded gravel the frame started coming apart (totally inadequate securing system to rear footrest mounts - F650GS Dakar). On the second day a complete frame failure - a complete break on one side and a fracture nearly full way through on the other side. This was the start of 3 months and 12,000 miles off sealed surfaces.

Comprehensive welded reinforcing and then welding some improvised mounts directly to the bike by a local Russian mechanic, when I eventually limped into a village, gave not a moments problem thereafter. No charge!!!!

MM squash the frame tubes. Doesn't that weaken the inherent strength of a tube?
Then they bent the squashed tubes. Doesn't that further weaken it?

TT frames do not have these squashed tubes or bent mounting ends - they keep the integrity and strength of a circular tube and weld mounting brackets to them. For those with MM boxes needing frames you may like to know your boxes fit TT frames. Stronger? Certainly cheaper!

When I queried with MM about the top box not fitting on their new frame they had just sold me, because one tube was welded off position, I was told to put it in a vice, hack saw it, file it (i.e. file metal, not a writ!), and glue up the silicone again.
And this is top of the price range stuff, with DIY after sale service, rectifying manufacturing faults!

"Adventure Equipment for Motorcycles" it said on the tin. Bullocks.



Any comments Paul?

Good to see feedback from Alu pannier users who have converted. I remember Chris Scott talked about this in his book. He liked soft bags too if I remember correctly.

Yet today, when you look out there, you still see mostly Hard Alu panniers everywhere. Why? Are travelers really that dim? Having whacked my leg on one while dabbing through some sand, I'm a soft bag convert forever.

Is security THAT BIG of an issue most places? If you have to leave your bike with soft bags, what's the best way to protect them? I've seen those Pac-Safe steel cable mesh things but can't someone cut between and reach in? I guess you just have to keep a better eye on the bike.

I think the weight issue doesn't bother that many riders because they avoid off road situations completely. But in parts of the world is that really possible? I know many hire a truck to get them past the bad sections. On dirt bikes ounces are stressed over and thousands spent to source light weight parts. Must be a reason for this. :innocent:

Mc D

I think people just assume a metal box is secure and durable.. It's great marketing isnt it.. it looks hardcore.

As for security, the locks on most boxes are SHITE !!! You can break them off with a rock. I could open my MM boxes with a tyre lever and even the biggest padlock is only as strong as the crappy aluminium pop rivets that hold the lock on..

Woulnt put off anyone apart from a 10 year old.

The pacsafes are in my opinion, safer.. You actually need wire cutters to get in. Who carries those around with them unless it's pre-meditated ???

Sure you can cut the bag and pull stuff out, but only if that stuff is small than say a tennis ball and then you'd have to get lucky where you are cutting.

In my opinion, the BEST solution isto keep your valuables in a removable tank bag and take it with you. Just keep clothes and low value stuff in your panniers.

ditto

Hard v soft....re-think....maybe
 

Thanks for all the feedback people keep it coming please.
I have used soft luggage before on a 3 month trip round Europe,my problem with it was its lack of waterproofing,I now know I should have put everything in waterproof bags but this made packing far more problematic. I also just had throwovers which ended up rubbing on the rear tyre so a rack would solve that.
Also the security thing was not a huge issue as anything valuable I took with me,however I now regularly have a pillion so was thinking of the Alu boxes for extra security & peace of mind for her valuables too.
My next `big` trip is going to be mostly road based out to the Stans in a big loop via Scandinavia,Russia etc & coming back along the Med coast so off road durability is not a huge issue.
I have taken on board the weight issue,maybe soft bags would be better as already taking extra luggage (pillion):cool4:
Does anyone have feedback on the Wolfman panniers????c?
Back to the drawing board for a re-think,as I said please keep the suggestions coming they are very helpful:mchappy:

I found a 2nd hand Hepco & Becker rack online for cheap, and added a new set of Alu Standard boxes of the same brand. I use the slightly narrower 38 liter on the exhaust side, 45 liter on the other side, and am now perfectly symmetrical :thumbup1:. Yes, the boxes definitely are heavy, but it's good for something. I haven't crashed hard, but I have laid the bike on its side a few times (Patagonian crosswinds); the setup doesn't give an inch and actually ends up protecting the bike. I have compensated the weight by installing a heavy duty shock/spring combo. Quick lock system is very convenient, but I have no illusions about safety when the wrong person with a flathead screwdriver and bad intentions walks by. Waterproof has held up through torrential rains and then some.

So far the bike and I have done 36,000 km 80/20 through the Americas. As a bonus, the boxes serve as a good surface to put those cool trophy stickers on.

Good luck choosing your kit,
Vincent

Wolfman make grate gear I do have there panniers so I can not talk about them. I like the tank bags they make and will get there tank panniers one day, helps with the DL650 buffiting as well.

On the DL650 the side with out the can, can be filled with a "soft rack" I have used a yard stick made out of aluminum bent it to bump out the spot I need. Here is place to get some ideas My V-Strom Accessories and Motorcycle Memories

also vsrtom forums may be help as well. V-Strom Riders International - Index andDL650 Specific! The Wee Strom! - Stromtrooper.com

Packsafe also makes nets that you can use to help people not getting in to the bags.
Hard boxes are not the best off road it will eat at the box. The vibes at speed drives me nuts.

Other options are using the rack for a hard box and then adding a frame to them to better hold the soft bags. This will let you hold the bags down better. I was thinking some thing like the old hard frame from a back pack. Or any thing is better than some bags I have used.

People like the box because they look the part. I have seen and read that people start to travel with soft bags go hard box then go back to soft. I am in the hard box stage and will till my boxes go bad. They have 40,000 miles on them and still work there a bit bent and have hurt my self more than a few times on them.

I had the Givi on my Ducati and managed to lose one at speed on tarmac. Went back and picked it up, all working A1, came off like a space capsule and just a few scratches. For my DL650 i am thinking Givi or Carabou.

Hard bags allow one to carry a lot of gear. Perhaps more than we really need? So good in one way, as all your junk fits in. But bad in another way as the weight adds up quickly making the bike hard to manage off road.

In reading many RTW reports here and other forums I notice a very common problem seems to be with cracked or broken pannier frames. Guys end up building them up with more and more steel bracing until they must weigh 12 kgs. each!

Even Ted Simon jettisoned his hard panniers and top box after his Africa crash on his last big RTW ride. Went back to soft bags on his R80GS.

Ted's point about the false sense of security is very true. Most hard panniers are pretty easy to break into. And once they are tweaked a bit they leak. Most good soft panniers are waterproof or have rain covers.

Givi make some nice soft bags, as do Tourmaster and several others. I use clear, zippered plastic comforter bags to put my stuff in. (you get these when you buy bedding and such)

So what's the truth here? Do guys end up with hard panniers because of the stickers? :rofl: You could always sew Flag cloth patches onto yer soffties, no? :smartass:

As I said, I have Tesch boxes but I quite like these. Prices seem reasonable...
Just another option for you:cool4:

John

Easily the quote of the day.

I took metal mules with me to Africa. The left one on my AT was large enough to fit passengers in, much to the annoyance of hitchhikers that I passed en route.

Having spanked a load of cash on them (they were cheap then too!), and lovely to behold they most certainly are, I wept when I grazed the first one in a campsite fall on day1 in Morocco. I then dented it significantly on day2 when a policeman jumped out into the road and caused me to drop the bike. I could feel myself getting poorer by the day, and that was just the cumulative damage to these lovely shiny boxes. Burkina Faso ripped the first one off, Angola day2 the second one and finally Angola day3 I almost squashed it flat and had to hammer it back into shape.

The point is, anyone saying that they won't be taking them offroad is deluding themselves. If you ride a motorcycle all day everyday for 6months you WILL drop it and, in my case, the metal mules racks (or just racks in general) are the weak point.

Steel Pony??
 

Cheers for the link Redboots, I had already checked the Steel Pony site out,the Andy Strapz one too,I must admit I am tempted by the Gascoyne bags from Steel Pony with maybe also the Simpson bags as tank panniers,I may be able to adapt the Suzuki pannier rack I already have on the bike to support these bags,would save me a FORTUNE too compared to Alu boxes.
I have no illusions about the bike being dropped,I know it will happen again (dropped it leaving an Orthodox monastery in east Poland last year but no panniers on at the time)
Keep the ideas coming,its great to get real life feedback from people who have been there & done it. :thumbup1:

I wanted alluminium panniers for a long time. They look great and I thought it was something you can buy once and then use it for the rest of your life.
I didn't bought them because they are expensive. I was just waiting for the moment were I really could not keep living without them...

I have done many kms with soft bags, but they don't look that cool, do they? :innocent:


My opinion changed after travelling for some months through Indochina with some 25USD Vietnam-made soft panniers.
I liked them so much I sent them home after the trip.

Now it's time to adapt them a little bit, do a frame for my bike and also two waterproof inner bags that I can take to the hotel room while the panniers stay allways screwed to the bike.

Material is "truck-canvas" (Is that the correct name in english?), so pretty bombproof.

25USD the pair of bags:
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...S/P1080915.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...S/P1080917.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...S/P1080918.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...S/P1080916.jpg

long 35cm, wide 18,5cm, high 38cm. Some 25lts each. And leightweight.

They look PERFECT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd buy a pair of them in a second !

Yep.
Look good for purpose, but would need a hole in the bottom to let water out reasonably quickly.

A thief would have your stuff before you could say "knife ".

If I was going anywhere risky ,I'd want hard panniers ,be they plastic or aluminum .

I agree that most of the panniers on the market are overpriced and many have serious flaws .

I didn't like what was on offer so I made my own ,now I'm on my "mark2":confused1: version and I can still see things that I would like to change and new features that I want to incorporate .

I haven't seen a set of soft panniers that I really liked yet ,the ones that I have used haven't been very durable or waterproof .The stuff inside can get mangled if you drop the bike ,they tend to be too small and a slide down the road will abrade them pretty badly .Plus they usually need a frame of some kind to support them and keep them off exhausts etc .
Something made out of waterproofed reinforced leather might be the answer .[no studded Harley bags please !]

hi,
i like the alloy panniers, usefull not only for carrying everything in a waterproof/semi secure place but also work well for resting roll bag on when loading the bike, useful also for sitting on when camping or using as a table.
i also think they help protect the bike in small offs.
The biggest problem i see with them is the racks are so weak on the ones you buy, so i made my own... ill be suprised if they break!

i also have a dl650 and find that the 'wasted' space on the side without an exhaust is a usefull space for a tool tube (or two)
take a look at mine here; mainlyduesouth-motorcycles

cheers
chris

To Each His Own
 

For two up I can picture hard panniers. You need the space. But not so much when solo on a Thumper or smaller bike.

Hard panniers do look secure to the Grab & Go thief.
How much do your custom "strong" racks weigh? Have you weighed your set-up empty? (panniers, racks, hardware, braces et al)

Keeping stuff dry with soft bags requires either waterproof bags or rain covers (pain in the ass). I have both. But after two solid days of rain the Scotch guarded fabric begins to leak and out come the covers.

As mentioned, my clothing lives in clear plastic inner bags. Very handy, stuff stays clean/dry even if soft panniers leak a bit.

From what I've seen, soft bags survive crashes far better than hard bags, which bend, twist and snap clean off in some cases. Hard bags HURT when they pin you. Soft bags much less if at all.

I’ve used Jesse Luggage.
The rack and a few other details are crap but the boxes itself are pretty good.

With a custom-build rack and some other tweaks it looks like this (2-up mode):
http://www.actiontouring.com/pic/lugmode.jpg

They actually have.
I rode for a week under a typhoon, they worked pretty well. Very little water inside, allthough it will depend how fast you're going.

im not sure how much my racks weigh exactly, about 5kg i imagine. i weighed my racks, boxes with 7liters of water in, and all of my camping gear, clothes and a load of other travelling things in a 89l ortileb roll bag, just before i left for a small trip through europe this year and it came in at 45kg, which i was more than happy with.
I understand what you say about the alloy ones bending or breaking in a crash but surely with soft ones then the contents gets wrecked in a crash?!

cheers
chris

I know cases of whole bmw panniers beeing stollen in seconds. I better pay attention rather than trust a locked pannier only because it's locked. :thumbup1:

I'm happy with my bags, as most of us are with ours, soft, hard or whatever :thumbup1:

Metal Fool
 

MM have an advert at the top of this page - presumably they cared enough about their product and image to pay for it to be there.

Yet they have not the interest or concern to respond to my post numbered 8 on the first page in which I reported my experience with their expensive product.

Says a lot doesn't it?

hmmm ... I am not trying to have a go, just to share my opinions and experiences (i guess that what the forums are for) ... but I think you (and others confronting this question) are basing your decisions on a lot of false premises and assumptions. (apologies to the O.P. who simply asked about choice of aluminium luggage but the thread seems to have morphed into a hard vs soft chat)

Firstly, metal boxes are only waterproof when in factory condition. The first time you drop the bike, they lose waterproofness as the lids no longer seal. The more you drop the bike the worse they get. Over a long tour, I can honestly say they will be far less waterproof than soft bags. If you have anything more that the smallest "off" the boxes will let in water like a paper bag. Lids dont seal properly anymore, loads gets in when it rains, and as soon as you drop the bike in mud or a puddle or a river, you have 50 kgs of water soaking through everything you own. Ask anyone who has done hard touring and had an ortlieb roll bag on the back. Its the ortlieb bag that is the most waterproof kit you will find, hard or soft.

Secondly, security. Over the last 16 years I have ridden across every continent but Antarctica, including places where everyone seems totally paranoid about thievery like Albania, Bolivia and Russia (and Liverpool). I have only ever used soft bags (but I have often ridden with guys who had hard boxes). I have NEVER had anyone steal anything from the bike or from my bags, despite about 20 months of "on road touring time" in that 16 years. That's enough time to say "knife" about 17 million times. (It's also enough time for a determined thief to wedge open the cheap lock on a metal box about 10 million times). A lot of that time has also been touring solo.

Thirdly, durability & protection. I always pack a mixture of thing in my soft side bags - including clothes, for the very purpose of keeping them "soft". Having flexible bags means the stuff inside does NOT suffer from the extreme vibrations that stuff inside metal boxes suffers from. As a result, stuff packed in soft bags is actually far less likely to suffer vibration damage than stuff in hard boxes. Further, in my experience, despite countless dropping of the bike on the soft side bags (and including a couple of high speed "crashes") I can say in completely good faith, that I don't believe ANYTHING has broken as a result of falls due to being packed in the soft bags ... in 16 years!

So I have to say, in my experience, empirical evidence for the arguments behind metal boxes just isn't there. In fact from first hand witnessing of friends who have ridden with metal boxes, the issue of waterproofness, and things being less likely to break inside metal boxes are not only not supported by evidence, but in fact the opposite is true in those two cases.

This isn't a recent view of mine, but it was well supported and further confirmed on the BAM Road ride across Siberia last year, when two of our three guys had soft bags and one had hard bags. It was the guy with the hard boxes who often ended up with a flooded pannier (to the brim), and the guy with the hard boxes whose stuff was breaking due to vibration inside the boxes (and the impact of very rough roads being directly passed on to the stuff inside the boxes).

I havent even touched the extra 12+ kgs the hard boxes added to his bike, or the great difficulty he had paddling the bike or even power walking the bike over hard terrain due to the inflexible metal boxes banging his legs. Or the worse handling suspension as a result of the weight being both higher up and further back than the soft bags. Or the extra 1000 pounds more a new set of hard boxes costs over soft bags.

While some guys pick soft bags because they are cheaper, I dont really care too much about that. I use soft bags because they are superior. The fact that I need to shell out 1000 quid less for the set up is a bonus, not a consideration in the decision making process.

Its pretty much a lay down misere if you ask me. But don't just ask me, ask the other guys who have been doing this for years...

Austin Vince uses soft bags
Lois Pryce uses soft bags
Chris Scott uses soft bags
Mac Swinarski uses soft bags
Ted Simon tried hard boxes and switched back to soft bags

I am quite amazed, with almost all the evidence stacked on one side, this debate actually still goes on.

Pretty much sums it up! Nice write up mate! I've followed your wonderful RR on ADV, and bike prep thread of your X Challenge. Almost would convince me to get a BMW .... but ah, no thanks! Been there, done that!

But yours is sweet. I prefer the cheap & cheerful solution, the leave it by the side of the road exit, no regrets. Or buy a bike locally and wing it. But I can see you love engineering and have a talent for it and have talented friends. Problem is, your talented friends usually don't come along to Bolivia!

So, this gets me back to a question I already asked once on this thread. Perhaps you have an answer:

Why is it that we still see so many RTW travelers using hard bags? Surely they must work for some? Look at Ali Baba's set up. Looks pretty good. I guess he never falls off!? Seems more use hard bags than not. What is going on here? Why does the hard Alu pannier myth persist?

BTW, one caveat to your treatise would be that plastic hard bags usually don't begin to leak after a fall. If they don't crack then usually the seal holds. But once they crack ... well then you've got a project ahead. My GIVI bags have held up pretty well in many falls off road, but I still prefer soft bags. And what about Pelican cases?
These are pretty tough too from what I understand. Check out Crashmaster's thread on ADV. He is using them on his KTM. He started with soft bags but ditched them and now has hard Caribou/Pelicans. Not bad but too big for me.

Security
Traveling solo I am not shy about hiring minders to watch my bike if I have to leave it somewhere. And we all work hard to try and find safe parking for our bikes at Hotels/Hostels/Back packers.

"--I am quite amazed, with almost all the evidence stacked on one side, this debate actually still goes on.--"


Who says all the evidence is stacked on one side ?

We can debate this for ever and I can assure you that we will never agree completely .

Having had my stuff vandalised in the UK [canvas bags and seat ripped and slashed ],I'll always prefer hard bags that are bolted to the bike and a bloody strong lock .Obviously Russia ,Bolivia and Liverpool are pretty tame compared to an East Midlands council estate .Not everybody wants to merely steal your stuff ,some people want to be arseholes as well as thieves .


Most of the hard panniers I see are crap ,being little more than flimsy storage boxes modified for bike use ,however some of the better ones are very good and are built to take knocks .
I built my own and I can assure you they are waterproof [even after the first fall ]and have taken some abuse .
Mine are also rubber mounted and don't vibrate much ,if at all.

I ride mostly on surfaced and gravelled roads , if I were to do more rough trails I would reconsider my choice ,but then I would probably be riding a smaller bike as well .

You mention several well known riders who use soft bags I could also list a large number who use hard bags ,but it wouldn't prove anything .

I haven't based my decision on any false premise or assumption ,just my own experience .

When I travel with my daughter on the pillion ,there is no earthly way that I could fit all our stuff and camping gear into floppy soft bags .

It's a shame that this thread has turned into a hard v soft debate ;the OP was asking about ally panniers for a VStrom .I have used soft and hard panniers on my VStrom and much prefer hard bags .

My son has a DRZ and loves soft bags ,is he right ?
Of course he is .
But then so am I .

Ha ha ,that's really no surprise !:oops2:

As the OP for this thread I just want to say that no one should apologise for expressing their opinion about the boxes/bags they prefer,I originally asked about Alu boxes but after receiving some posts concerning the merits of soft luggage it was me that encouraged the debate,I have found it very useful to hear the pro`s & con`s for both types & hopefully others will find these posts useful too.
To have first hand accounts of peoples experiences & how they came to prefer one luggage style over the other has been invaluable,exactly what the HUBB is for I believe.:clap:
A heartfelt thank you to everyone who has posted on this thread.
By the way after leaning very heavily towards Happy Trails Teton panniers I am now seriously considering Steel Ponys Gascoyne bags,the jury is still out at the moment though :wave:

This Hard V's Soft debate is great.......

A bit like the "which is the best tool in the box" debate - Surely it depends on the job you are doing..... A screwdriver is no use if you want to loosen a nut! :innocent:



I'm just wondering at what point Godwins Law is going to kick in......:stormy:


:funmeteryes:

I think you can never protect against someone who is determined to be an arsehole, and I am sorry to hear lowlifes have done that to your bike. Would it have been that much more difficult though for such lowlifes merely out for a bit of vandalism, and wearing steel capped boots, to dent the crap out of metal boxes with a few well placed kicks, thus at the very least, taking away the waterproof seal?

Don't get me wrong, I think of all the arguments for hard luggage, security is the only one that (theoretically) holds any water. However, as mentioned above, I have (empirically) never had a problem, nor have the other people I know that ride with soft bags had a problem, and that's quite a lot of people. Of course that doesn't mean it never happens, (of course it happens, everything CAN happen) but it does mean (barring an enormous statistical anomaly) that at best (or should that be worst), it must be a very rare and unlikely occurrence.

That's also not to say I dont take precautions. I think when overnighting in "dodgy" or even risky areas, you have to minimise the risks. Sometimes involving spending 5 minutes longer to find a secure place to park the bike, or following an inn-keepers recommendations as to where to park the bike. Or in the case of no secure parking, spending an extra 3 minutes to take the side bags off the bike and bring them inside to be safer overnight. Twice in urban areas in Russia, I parked the bike in guarded parking lots, even if they were half a mile from the hotel we were staying in. This was a precaution deemed appropriate not only by myself, but by the guy with the hard boxes with whom I was travelling. He also didn't park his bike on the street, so the hard boxes didn't actually deliver any more convenience and "utility" in those situations either.

you could try kicking my boxes with steel toe capped boots but i bet you would damage your foot more than the pannier! i think people are too used to rubbish panniers made from cheese!Honestly i think you are basing your contempt for alloy panniers mainly on the rubbish boxes like zega etc.
a well made pannier should not bend so easily and break the waterproof seal, my strom is a pretty heavy old girl and iv dropped her a couple of times on the boxes and so far im yet to have made a mark on them.

dont get me wrong mind... i can see where the attraction for soft luggage comes from, and depending on the trip i would seriously consider it, but i would also be using a more off road suited bike than a strom.

cheers
chris

Now that I would like to see! :confused1: are you serious? I have dropped my bike on to my alloy boxes (home brew) more times than I would care to admit and they are still water tight. I have filled them with water and tipped them upside down with the lids on to check. that empirical enough?

I can see some plus points to soft luggage but my alloy boxes:
-stop my bike from falling as far
-do a good job of protecting it - empirically tested
-make the bike sit higher on its side making it easier to pick up
-don't scatter my belongings down the road when i part company from the bike on ice
-make it difficult for Jakey robbing bastards

Just my thoughts
Jim

Wish I could agree.... £1200 Metal Mules.. Classed as many to be the toughest, most waterproof boxes available.

http://www.touringted.com/_gallery_/...serialNumber=2

http://www.touringted.com/_gallery_/...serialNumber=2

http://www.touringted.com/_gallery_/...serialNumber=2


Another gripe was that EVERYTIME the bike was dropped at walking pace.. The boxes would break away from the frame !!

Having to unpack the bike, open the boxes and reattach them with every sand tumble was a bloody nightmare. I spent more time putting the boxes back on that riding ! SEE BELOW

http://www.touringted.com/_gallery_/...serialNumber=2

After this, I swapped to Cortech Softbags for the rest of the jouney and it was BLISS !!! Lightweight, easy to pack, totally waterproof, easy to load/unload and worked as a great buffer when the bike toppled !


You will never hear a stronger soft bag advocate than me lol

Thats exactly why I made my own! They are considerably stronger than any metal mule, TT crap, they are welded together not rivited and are gusseted where appropriate to add strength. They also have a proper rim to stop the opening at the top distorting on impact - this is the weakest part of any box. they also only cost £350 to! Like I say, they have slid down the road and are still fine. I suspect that soft luggage would have ended up looking like my leathers!

Another weak area are the racks used, had some givi ones (they look similar to the ones in the pictures) which were utter shit so again I made my own, these will not break!

Its only my empirical evidence but hard luggage suites my needs. Think its very much a case of each to their own though... what ever works.

It seems that the crap some companies turn out for vast amounts of money is giving alloy luggage a bad rep though...

Sorry, I just cant believe that people are paying 1000 for two boxes - it's just crazy.:(

As long as it is hasslefree for more then 100kkm it’s okay for me.
I wouldn’t have bought TT, MM Zega etc…

I have never used MM's so cant really comment, BUT, the frame and mountings looks puny to me. The boxes are not welded, (looks like its just folded round and riveted), so a combination of these two things looks like you just chose the wrong kit:frown:

I got side-swiped by a pick-up truck in Pakistan while doing about 80kph. The side he hit just had scrapes and the other side that the bike landed on was bent a bit out of square and the lid popped open. Pushed it back into alignment and used a web strap on it for the rest of the trip. Rack system undamaged.
I also got high-sided on a packed desert road doing about 50kph and nothing happened to the box that was landed on.

I love my Tesch boxes and rack :icon16:

John

It depends on what type of metal boxes you have , you'd have to try extremely hard to put a ding in mine .Most crooks and vandals are lazy and take the path of least resistance .Why bother to expand energy when a slash with a knife is easy ?You could cut soft bags off a bike in an instant throw 'em over your shoulder and be gone .

Another incident was when I left my soft canvas backed pickup in a pub carpark .When I came out , some lowlife had slashed that .
It was replaced with sheet metal , end of problem .

Although I always try to avoid rough neighbourhoods ,statistically I must be unlucky ,but I am a bit wiser with regard to human nature.

You might think I am trying to bore the arse off everybody , but take a look at Alibaba's boxes and then take a look at Ted's .

What I see as a welder and fabricator when I look at the Jesse boxes is "strength" both in terms of a multi angle design and in the case of Alibaba's bike a secure mounting system .
The multi angle design also avoids sharp edges that will snag and catch if the bike should go down ,also there are fewer sharp edges to hurt the rider .
He's done a lot of miles with that bike and it's proven to be good, you can't argue with that .

When I look at Ted's Metal Mules , I don't see much strength , I see sharp angles, a minimum of welding ,poor mounts and a poor mounting system .
If I'd paid that much money ,I'd be as pissed off as he is .

So ,you've got to do your own research and look very carefully at what you're buying .

My thoughts exactly! It's a shame that there are very expensive paniers for sale that are in fact rubbish. But there's no denying that there are very good alu paniers out there, that will nog break when you fall down. We could all see Mr.McGregor fall down quite a few time on LWR and even being hit by a car from behind, and they made it.
I think it just a matter of personal preference and how much you're willing to shell out for a decent set. Prepare to pay a lot for aluminium.

And for security: nothing is really safe on a bike. And since I've succesfully sabotaged an alarm system, I don't trust them either. Just keep your stuff where you can see it. There are not theft-proof bike luggage systems. Thieves are way too clever and have tools to pry open anything.

Soft vs hard
 

Hi guys,

I am facing this dilemma also: soft versus hard. To buy alu boxes is too expensive for me so I've been considering making my own, but that will be a lot of trouble and I risk ending up with some shitty looking, hard to use, piece of crap on the back of my bike. I've used soft luggage until now (but never done long trips, max was 9 days). I am planning a 3 week Morokko trip now so I don't know what to do yet. The problem is that I can't find Cortech here in RO , but I have to admin they look good and are very reasonably priced!

Cortech :: Luggage :: TriBag Saddlebag

Do you of a shop in UK/EU that would ship to RO?

I saw that some blokes here said that soft luggage is not waterproof. Check out the waterproof bags from alpkit and I would say: problem solved:

Airlock Drybags - Alpkit Outdoor Gear Shop

Trekking equipment - living the journey - Alpkit Outdoor Gear Shop


Gday!

I have those Cortect Tribags !! I got them brought to me by an American friend. They are NOT available anywhere but the USA. :(

They are great bags. Very durable with great zips etc !! Worked great through South America.

You could get them sent over to you, im sure !! Lot's of US dealers will ship overseas.

And no, mine arn't for sale :)

I have recently bought some ex military panniers for £30 which im using for Africa. I think they are brilliant. Available from a place called SILVERMANS in the U.K.

Has no one here looked at the SW-Motech Trax panniers?
The lightest alu panniers I have found, good price and very tough...
Homepage - EN
If hard panniers are as bad as some of you argue why are so many experienced trotters using them, like in Globe Rider Movies.


http://dualsportplus.com/hard_luggag...46-500x600.jpg

First of all... I can't believe it. After only two years I'm really writing in the HUBB again. Isn't that great.

Ok. I've to admit that I read only the first page of the answers, wanted to reply a lot but I leave it short.

There are a good couple of things to say against Tesch and his products but I really have to admit that the boxes are working.

Have them on my Africa Twin and I've beaten the shit out of them. the shape is basic, no fancy shit on them, so they are easy to repair. I had to in fact. Welding, bending... the whole thing.

Compared to known systems like Touratech, which wouldn't be waterproof after the bike tipped over standing still. Or, just for instance TedMagnums MetalMules, which needed a bike-lift and a BMW on top to bend them back into shape... and they still weren't.

BTW... the Tesch-design is easy enough to rebuild it, need just some aluminium and a guy who knows how to tread it.

So long,
Sebastian... still in argentina

SEEEBAAASTIAAAN !! Welcome back ! Yes, funny times indeed. Dropping Shauns BMW on a bike lift onto my Metal Mules to try and straighten them hahahaha ! Dakar Motos is a fun place.

BTW, love your signiture. I feel responsible :smartass:

caja rubbish
 

whatever you do don't go near caja sahel.
absolute crap. designed with corner welds, made from shoddy chinese aluminium.
if he's still making the dodgy sh1te he sent me, he'll be out of business by now anyway.
cheers,
andrew

HEY , Everyone over at UKgser swears by them ,
There have been quite a few Major Trips undertaken using them
and i have only ever heard Praise for the Pannier set .

What happened yours ?

Re: Metal Mules - friends have them on an F800GS & R1200GS Adventure. I notice that many of the mounts just consist of the frame tubes squashed flat & a hole drilled through. To me, this looks very weak, is this where they fracture? I deliberately avoided this design when I made pannier frames recently despite it being the easiest option by far.

Re: Caja Sahel - I can't comment on their durability but I think that the mounting system is primitive to say the least. I've seen a set on a friends R12GS, where the mounting bolts pass through the back of each pannier, the holes had ovalled. They really need to be bushed to support the weight properly.

What's best, panniers that come off in a tumble, hopefully before too much damage is done or securely bolted on panniers that stay on the bike in a crash & take the full impact?

I nearly bought hard panniers last year for my 950SE but was let down by the supplier. With hindsight, I'm glad & am now a convert to soft luggage. Louis roll bag on the back, Ortlieb panniers & a TT tankbag borrowed from my 1150.I'll soon be replacing the Ortliebs with Wolfman Expedition Panniers, Ortliebs going on to my partners DRZ.

http://possu.smugmug.com/Motorcycles...31_eLJS7-M.jpg

Well my 10p worth,
1) it would depend on your riding & where your going i.e. if all road tarmac it don't really matter of soft or hard box's, just bear in mind the speed your riding & & loss of fuel over the wait by the distance & drag factor. (not much i suppose really),
if going on some of the more adventures roads (dirt track etc) I would suggest you look @ the Ali box's full stop. they will help protect your gear & possibly the bike's wheels. I find it strange they can fall apart that easy!!
I know on the GS forum there is a guy who makes his own £300 loads of guys buy them from him as they are really good, (no i have not got any),
as for the panniers frames look @ Motohaus Powersports Limited S W Motech Side Carriers, Alu Racks and Boxes

I honestly think the only reason 90% of ppl riding any bike have used the Ali style box's because a certain 2 ppl used them good free publicity. If KTM had gave them the bikes would every one be bimbling about on ktm's probably.

Overall look at style of riding & where your going/distance, look at the amount of gear you will need/want to take.

btw I have used both & found the soft option ok for going a way for a few days or quick bit of shopping, the ali for more distance

only my 10p worth

I would like to suggest another option. When we did our UK to Cape Town trip - my wife and I on a 1989 R100GS we needed decent luggage capacity for as my wife puts it 'living on the bike for a year'. I knocked up plywood panniers and some fairly heavy duty frames (20mm square section tube) which used the existing mounting points. In the whole design there is no attempt to save weight which may be the only downside. Everything you see on the bike i.e. panniers + contents and frames, all the other bags including tank bag, water carriers (empty) and the front rack weighed in at 91kg just after this photo was taken on our return to Devon, which I don't think is too bad for 2 people. The bike was a bit of a handful in the desert and the panniers were mounted a little low and tended to dig in on twisty tarmac roads. After a number of hard falls in the Kalahari we did manage to cause some slight damage to one pannier but this was easily fixed after a quick visit to a hardware shop in Ghanzi for a few wood screws.


http://www.lesflamands.com/images/Af...%20(Small).jpg


It appears I unwittingly incorporated some interesting features not seen on other hard luggage:

• Panniers are side opening. Lid is about 2/3 of the pannier height and folds down to make a shelf ideal for making a roadside brew! The bottom part of the pannier was used to store stuff we didn't need everyday. Waterproofing was not a problem although we never completely submerged them.
• The panniers lift off the frames and make ideal camping seats. The black bar around the top is hinged and padlocked at the back to hold the pannier to the bike and the lid closed.
• The frames pick up on the standard fixing points and are braced across the back as well and I believe this added strength to the rear subframe. I know the paralever subframe is better than the monolever but with rider and passenger totalling 150kg and 90kg of luggage it needed all the help it could get

If we have the opportunity to do another overland trip I would try to make up an improved system in aluminium with at least some attempt to keep the weight down. Definately be on the same bike.

Major trips on UKGser usually consists of a cafe on a Welsh hill though don't they ? ;)

Just joking, I've got no experience of them.


My Metal Mule frames showing their strength :)

That was a 70mph crash on sand/gravel and they still worked once they were straightened up with a metal fence post. Can't really complain there.

Touratech ones are stronger I think, they use the same hoops.

http://www.touringted.com/_gallery_/...fb26f8f964110e

I agree with Touring Ted on this one - they are ALL far too costly (for what they are) and they damage too easily. A far better (and far cheaper) option is soft luggage. It's also lighter and hand portable.

The only downside as I see it with soft luggage is security (when you want to leave the bike for a short while). The only thing to do here is to take the thing with you.

I swear by good old leather saddle bags but the modern alternative seems to be a HUGE single bag tied down on top of the seat with bungee's.

Same old story - The manufacturers who make these things are being too GREEDY. They simply aren't worth what they are demanding...

Great thread here !
Was going to make my own Alu panniers and steel frame racks but people on here have made me think again....
Has anyone tried the Hepco + Becker Gobi system ? Has room for liquids between the skins and supposedly un breakable. Cheers.
http://www.hepco-becker.de/_eng/imag...Gobi-black.jpg

+1

I use H&B panniers and I completely agree it's not all about get-offs or security of your gear.

I see the H&B panniers as portable furniture. Yes that's right, I travel Two-Up and it's nice to take off the panniers and use them as seats in the middle of nowhere. I can't do that Indian squat thing for more than a few minutes. My other major consideration was water proof. I don't want to have to worry about all my gear, getting soaked.

As far as security goes no pannier is 'safe'. If a thief wants to get in then they will find a way.

Every luggage option is a compromise - no matter what other travelers say you need to assess your needs and budget against your travel style and the climate location you'll be traveling. What goes for travel in Outback Australia isn't true for Europe or freezing Siberia.

Oh and if you like stickers - can't beat smooth alu surface beerchug

Whilst I agree luggage is a compromise, I certainly don't agree that the saem luggage can't be used for all of the above conditions - I've use exactly the same items in the outback, Siberia, Europe and a whole lot of places in between.

My personal choice is a GIVI top box (excellent security, as tough as they come - only problem is that big heavy mass acting as a pendulum on corrugated road surfaces, subframes DO bend), underseat storage (secure, invisible and I get 50+ litres with my Burgman), and soft luggage for the rest (throwover panniers if I have a passenger, or a simple canvas bag on the seat if I don't).

Soft bags work ok.
 

I have traveled with soft bags after having issues with the spendy aluminums. The spendy aluminum ones tended to rattle and leak water and dust. Went to Ortlieb soft bags that are totally water and dust proof and added a second bag for tools. Taken a few spills with softbags and just pick up the bike and get going. Security??? No place is totally safe. Keep an eye on things and sleep with the bags. This photo was in Chile. I think they look as nice as twisted aluminums.....

Soft is best in tough conditions.
 

I have ridden my strom off road more than most to know. It is not really an off road bike. My take on panniers and I have tried most is. If road you are traveling is mostly tar. It does not matter whether you use hard or soft..

If the road/ track is hard going. Then soft is the way to go. With hard panniers you need to have them tightly packed to stop your valuables destroying themselves.

Steel pony soft luggage after couple of desert crossings.
http://justdan.smugmug.com/Bikes/Bir...66_WKXtE-L.jpghttp://justdan.smugmug.com/Other/Rid...22_gJTDb-L.jpg

Horses for courses
 

IMHO I can see the merit of both soft luggage and panniers.

If I was going to ride on soft or muddy surfaces where the risk of tipping over was considerably higher then I would change my hard luggage (H&B Standard Alu) to soft or at the very least consider the risks and financial strain.

I also think that most people that use hard luggage (alu or other) don't consider how much they might fall off, they don't want to consider the worst case scenario and what it would mean to fix the bike if like with Touring Ted's photos, the bike was always rubber side up... oops :rolleyes2: No harm meant :innocent:

So I've come up with this formula to help provide some direction to other's in their buying decision.

Choose Soft luggage if:

(Riding time on soft surface > 200 metres)
AND
((Riding skill on soft surfaces < 3 years experience) OR (Motorcycle & luggage combined mass > 180kgs))
OR
(Number of drops >= x)
OR
(Available funds $$ < (co$t of repair OR co$t of replacement of hard luggage))

For all else choose hard luggage.
:D

I've made the following assumptions based on the above.

• Soft surfaces include sand, mud, bulldust, or anything else where your sidestand would dig in and you're bike would topple over if you weren't there holding it upright.
• Riding on 200 metres or more means in one single stretch that can not be avoided.
• X is determined as the variable for the number of falls, tips, offs or other where the rubber is not touching the road and your nerve is about to break if your hard luggage hasn't already. X is also known as the breaking point for conversion to soft luggage.
• Repair and replacement cost(s) assume that certain amount of damage has been inflicted to said hard panniers and that they don't serve intended/desired purpose and hence need to be repaired or replaced.

The above may not apply in your specific set of circumstances so use your own discretion in making any financial decisions as I or any associated party will not be held liable and/or accountable for any injury and/or damage incurred by following the above. The above does not constitute advice but merely the opinion of a reader.

:offtopic: if there are any computer programmers interested in the formula in say C or VB code just flick me a PM. (Oh and yes I have a serious case of mondayitis!!! :frown:)

Lovely Day in the Congo
 

Here's my thoughts on Hard panniers............ entitled 'A lovely day in the Congo' BEWARE.... lots of swearing..!

YouTube - RideFar's Channel

I have hard panniers on my Tenere as they came with the bike but for any decent tour I'm going with hard top box and soft panniers. Saves on the 'ammering an mendin' LOL!

And it wasn't even soft surface
 

See my reference to "< 3 years riding experience" above. I tell you that formula works!


WTF. Does anyone else find it strange that he had a hammer, as if predicting that he would need it to bang the panniers back into shape??!!

Maybe shyte pannier makers (not mentioning any names TT) should also make some kind of quick release when coming off so as to soften the fall, oh whoops sorry my bad they already do that, it's called poor quality frames. :rofl:

:rofl::funmeteryes:

That pretty much sums it up. Take pannier, and you take to much. Simple really. Turns a poor off road rider into a worse off road rider. jeiger

I have to agree. The photo above was taken in the middle of the Birdsville track. All up kit weight including 4L of water and 3 days of food and gear for a month living off the bike weighed just over 20kg. My empty caribous panniers weigh 16kg:thumbdown:

Yeah, bought those Steel Ponies as well. Thought it would be good to keep the COG down. Made some small lightweight racks for them. Took them on a weekend away and the weight still pissed me off. Just couldn't throw the bike around the way I wanted to. Just ruined a weekend ride. So stripping all those racks of it, I figured, those crashbars might as well go. The engine craddle crashbar might as well go. But than the plastic panels concerned me. So I figure, why stop now. Might as well strip the lot and replace with easy to use and lightweight stuff. :helpsmilie:

hehe none taken ! :smartass:

I'm convinced it was those daft, heavy expensive panniers that made my bike "fall over" as much as it did. They totally f**K up the handling and weight distribution. You can never bring them as forward (Centre of gravity) as soft bags and they weight a good 15-20Kg before you've even filled them with crap.

As soon as I swapped them for softbags (on the same trip), I was away like a Paris - Dakar racer..

:scooter:

I got some ortlieb panniers, they aren't that big, but that means i take less crap. 100% waterproof and only cost me £100 in the sale.

Wolfman Racks and Softbag Panniers Rock!
 

Figured I'd add my thoughts on this topic as well, being that I've gone the route of the softbags in lieu of the WAYYYYYYY over-priced, and overweight metal boxes that, as many have said in this thread, are just not really worth it.

I have a friend that has done London to Beijing, Pan-American Highway, the Trans-American Trail, Prudhoe Bay to Chile, and next year is doing the London to Capetown ride (most all with Globebusters). He swears by Metal Mules. He swears I shouldn't waste my money on Jesse's (too heavy), or TT's (not strong enough), or BMW's (just junk), or any other form of metal pannier as "they all leak." That's his primary reason. He also owns the BMW dealership, so he can eat the cost of shipping on his Metal Mules, and if something does happen, he'll probably warranty them. Who knows.

I did the only thing rational in my mind...I didn't listen to a word he said, and instead, did what I think makes the most sense. I bought the Wolfman Expedition Dry Saddle Bags along with the Wolfman Rack system made for the bags. Then I got a couple of the Wolfman dry duffel bags and some Rox Straps and that's all I've ever needed.

The bags stay dry. They don't weigh much at all. They, unlike metal panniers, can accommodate different shapes and sizes. If they're not full, they don't destroy whatever is in them. They don't get destroyed in a fall. I can add fuel, water, etc to the racks with the Roto Pax system. I don't lose much in the way of bike handling since they're really so light, you don't notice they're even there after a short while riding with them. I can stack and pack much more than any pannier system can take, and I don't have change out my silencer just to accommodate the rack. If one gets damaged, some duct tape will hold until I hit a place where I can apply a more permanent fix (stitching!). The whole kit cost me about the same as 1 metal pannier...without whatever rack is required for whatever pannier it is. I can buy 3 or 4 more COMPLETE sets for the price of 1 set of metal panniers and rack! So, I just don't see why anyone would even bother with metal panniers.

I hear one decent argument from another rider I ride with, in which he said "what about your laptop?" Well, I put that in a small plastic pelican case (not the big 5inch thick one...think laptop sleeve thickness) underneath my duffel if I know I'm going offroad. If i'm not going off road, it goes in my duffel at the bottom, where it's strapped to my rack...that part of the bike will never hit ground, get wet (it's in a waterproof bag), and with proper strapping, it's not going to move around at all. So far, not a single problem with my laptops.

So, I'm not sold on the great marketing and cool pictures or looks of the metal panniers, and I never will be. I can carry as much or more, with a fraction of the cost in both dollars and weight, so why bother?

I haven't added the Wolfman Crashbar Panniers...which are really cool too and provide that much more room. Those are next.

Here's a pic of my last trip I took between Christmas and New Years of 2011. It was a road-only (back roads, little gray lines, no highways) trip, so no real off-roading, hence the clean bike. Oh, and it rained the whole trip, hence the rain suit. But, alas, everything was as dry as when I put it in!

F*ck metal panniers...don't get sold on the marketing!! They're not what they appear to be.

Cheers...and have a great and safe 2012!~

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...67685259_n.jpg

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...09953767_n.jpg

already set up with Wolfman dry bags ... what do you folks think about a hybrid setup. soft tank and side bags with a medium aluminum top box?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...01120002-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...0box20lois.jpg

Panniers
 

I use aluminium panniers & my wife users Andy Strapz Expedition Panniers & they are very good, she did however have her cloths stolen out of them in Kenya tho. I use mine for security reasons, but if you opt for aluminium get simple ones like mine as I have had them repaired twice in Africa and was very easy, the more fancy ones impossible.

Wasn't the OP travelling two up? If that's the case, then the straps of soft panniers (including frame mounted Wolfmans) over the pillion seat could seriously compromise passenge comfort, with disasterous consequences for the trip:rolleyes2:. Also, two up some soft panniers are a bit small, even if you're not camping.

It was interesting to read Tsiklonaut's reports on advrider and see how his Woldbeater panniers performed. OK, he got them replaced by Vern half way round, but I think if that offer hadn't come he would have kept using the original set. The main thing he did was to put a thin strip of rubber between the frame and the box to prevent cracking. They certainly seemed a better shape for minimising damage in an off than the square bottomed MM or TT boxes.

Andy Strapz and similar panniers can be fitted with the straps under the seat, so no comfort problem. Capacity wise, because they are flexible, you can cram more into them than you might imagine.

Seems this needn't be a problem- this Winding Roads Soft Luggage and Rotopax Adaptor Plate > SW-Motech Adaptors & Accessories

adaptor plate takes the top straps of the Wolfman panniers with or without the additional rotopax. Seems pretty neat and can go on the TT racks too.

The FACT is that most soft panniers, Wolfman panniers at least, are considerably smaller than most, if not all hard cases. Wolfman Expedition Dry Panniers are 19L each compared to most hard panniers that range from 31-45L each. I personally like hard panniers.

Don't get me wrong I LOVE Wolfman products too, I have numerous bits of theirs: tank bag, tail bag, tank panniers, duffle bag & fender bag. If I were going wholly off road, or with a lot more emphasis off road, not only would I get a smaller bike but I would go with soft panniers and my choice would be Wolfman.

Hi,



My experience for the AT RD07A is:

• Touratech pannier rack
• Holan Nomada cases - 39l on the right side, 32l on the left

This set is not cheap but I could not recommend it more:

• The rack is very rugged and with thick paint. Did not opt for the Holan rack, which is similar, due to delivery time

• The panniers are also very rugged: 2mm thickness, welded, riveted and sealed (water and dust proof). Covers are removable, not hinged. It features luggage handles on the panniers and covers, very handy. And it comes with 4 identical key-locks. More than enough space on my two weeks trip to Guinea-Bissau and always resisted several severe hammerings on the Moroccan rocky pistes. Finally they have a certain "classic" look which really suits the AT!

Some pictures below:

https://live.staticflickr.com/5781/3...4e0763f7_z.jpg
Oued Oum Er-Rbia by LMCabrita, on Flickr


https://live.staticflickr.com/5458/3...1ec4245a_z.jpg
Last lakes before the desert by LMCabrita, on Flickr

As I mentioned, not cheap but recommend. I've even tried low speed falls, either on or off road!

BR,
Luis

One thing that did occur to me: The Metal Mule panniers don't have a folded over lip at the top of the box, so the can never be as strong as panniers with one, even allowing for the support that the lids give. Be like a carboard box- no strength until you tape up the top. Does this make sense?

Interesting debate so far. I'm from the 'cheap' school of panniers and am willing to be persuaded re soft luggage. However, my mind is engaged with these at the moment:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aluminium-...-tiedown-loops

The bracing plate on the attachment side makes sense on these budget side boxes. Anybody use them?

I've recently bought a pair of Stahlkoffer panniers. The quality and workmanship is excellent. They are 2mm and welded construction, easily as good as Touratech and Metal Mule (if not better) and much much cheaper. They are also complimented by a very neat range of tailor made inner bags.

Ooops! Link incorrect. They are made by the 'Overload' company in E. Europe.

I'm from the cheap school myself, so I made my own. Yes they are heavy, but waterproof, and so far the only damage from drops has been scuffed paint. I had the square tubing on hand from another project, but I have less than $50.00 invested in these. The Army Surplus Ammo Cans and the large rack will carry anything I need to live out on the road in comfort and more. They aren't pretty but they got the job done on the last trip.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...6/IMG_0183.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...6/IMG_0162.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...ska2009090.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...ska2009589.jpg

Yay! Found the (?new) website - not completely up and running but there they are. Any one used them? Oh and where on earth can I find a cheap rack without having to make one?


Wix.com Overload created by hlavacska based on long-left-sm

crash test
 

Dont know what the others say but Ive got a set of touratech panniers ,on ther 4th bike now ,a few years back they slid down a gravel road in the snowy mountains uner a 650 bmw then went over the edge with it landing about 50 m down .Not only did they save the bike and my leg but were still usable.A bit of straightening with a log of wood on a stump that night in camp and finished the rest of the trip.
Fixed properly in my workshop back home in about 2 hrs.Still using them.
Great product.

I agree very much with your view on alloy panniers, Ok for the odd Rally in a field or carting your sarnies into the city on your GS triple dark. We left home with two sets of TT zegas picked up like new off ebay - powder coated them - up graded the totally shite locks etc. One small fall bends the things out of square and lets the water in. We junked Angies boxes in the USA, she now has Wolfman panniers that have been great so far. I'm junking my TT boxes and converting 1550 Peli cases to panniers on TT frames for me. I've seen three overlanders with a Peli case set up and all have only good things to say. They look to survive off's well and are reasonably secure. I will say though that the TT frames are bloody good, My bike is LOADED and even after 7000 miles off road have been fine. Angie bent hers in falls and they bent back into shape and no breaks. Metal mule are by far the best alloy boxes but one fall and they will be buggered - My vote goes to Peli..

Paul

Pelicans are totally the best compromise of all solutions but I've so far been too lazy to build the pannier rails for them.

I need to get on that....

New, family-sized 'Big Ass' range from Jesse Luggage alongside a Triumph Explorer fitted with the old-style day panniers.

Also available with optional BBQ attachment.

Never used them on a bike although I like the look of the Pelis too, no sharp corners but they are heavy. A Nanuk was 3/4 of the weight.

Nice rack, Ironhead ;-)

Ch

Good shot, Chris! I told him to mount them on the Motorhome(Caravan)...look at all the extra 'STUFF' he could carry on the rig.
Allen.

Very interesting discussion going on here! Thought I'd post my two cents worth too:

On my particular bike soft bags do look better than hard panniers imho. But soft bags are so simple to get into that it's not funny. I had my stuff stolen twice now and have had enough. I know what you guys mean by 'nothing is impossible to break into' but no one can deny that any alloy case is harder to get into than a soft bag.
That soft luggage will handle a crash better is utter rubbish. What they do is deform and transfer the impact forces to whatever is in your soft bags. If they only contain clothes then you might end up with torn up clothes (which could still be expensive), if it's your laptop then the soft bag becomes very expensive…

Alu cases may deform in a crash and may no longer be waterproof but they did take most of the impact and did protect your stuff, which the soft bag wouldn't do. You can always use an innerbag that is waterproof… that way you have impact protection, better security and dry clothes.
Soft panniers are not waterproof. My set of soft pannierz from Andy Strapz leak. The Ventura soft bike pack system leaks even more. After a minor bit of rain I had ducks swimming in them… The Ventura tankbag is even worse than that. After 15 minutes of rain, with the extra raincover over it, I had a drowned duck in it... and even the totally waterproof roll-top bag will leak when it has bounced over the road at 80 km/hr...

Taking all your valuables with you sounds easy but isn't when you like to go for a long walk and have to carry all the stuff with you up the mountain. Been there, done that... didn't like it at all.
Like a few others I looked at MM as they even have a rack for my bike as well (although flattened and drilled pipes are just simply amateurish). Still, if the bloke selling them here in Oz would have responded like a human being and if Paul Goulding would have been interested in anything more than just cold $$$$ then I probably would have bought them.
As it is I got fed-up with the feeling of getting ripped-off and made my own!

It turned out to be far easier than I thought too. I made mine from composite aluminium/plastic/aluminium panels of 3mm (made by Ullrich aluminium). Brilliant stuff! They come powdercoated on both sides in several colours (mine are black) and are stronger than plain aluminium sheet. When deformed you can knock them back into shape just like normal alu. I Sikaflexed and riveted 30mm alu angle around it and put ball-corners at the bottom. The composite panels are lighter and stronger than sheet aluminium and… cheap too! I made two 35 litre cases for just AUD $200,-- in total and have enough sheet left for a second set.

I opted not to worry about complex mounting systems as I basically do NOT want to be able to remove the panniers easily, so that the thieving bastards can't take them off easily either! No thin walled small loops, flattened pipe, poor quality welds, pathetic little brackets and 'smart' locking systems to break or bend. Just simply bolted into place over the full length and width of the pannier.
Ok, they are not easy to take off the bike. I have inner bags for that. Why would you want to take them off anyway? If they are secured to your bike then they are much better there than in your tent, or hotel room.

Are they waterproof? More than likely as each joint is covered in Sikaflex with roofing quality silicone on the inside as well. But I work on the assumption that they do, or will, leak. Hope for the best, plan for the worst! So I put a rubber self draining bung in the bottom so that it won't fill up and use waterproof inner bags to keep my stuff dry.:mchappy:

Hello folks

I am a newbie to this site :blushing: , and find this site very informative and interesting.
Specially this thread about aluminium panniers versus soft bags.

What about hard plastic panniers such as Givi or the Kappa Garda ones?

Any qualified opinions or experiences about these ones.....?:smiliex:

Welcome to HU Mr Snake,

I believe that for adventure travel - aka overlanding (to me what HU is about, as opposed to conventional touring) these rigid plastic cases and the racks that must be bought with them are perceived as being very convenient and elegant but a bit flimsy when it comes to full loads on rough roads and rough treatment for months on end. They are not made for this sort of riding.
Nor are many bikes chosen by overlanders of course, but what most first timers aspire to do is to limit possible problems down the road, both in machine choice, set up and equipment. The critical difference with regular touring is that on the way to Kathmandu or Timbuktu there won't be any Givi dealers at hand and broken luggage mounts/racks are a regular problem and a real nuisance. I recall some guy describing his Givis as "great cases, terrible rack".

Much of it comes down to a solid mounting method that can take the knocks/vibration, overloading, falls and occasionally riding too fast for the conditions. This won't always be the most slick and convenient solution but is more important on the long road.

The picture below is of a couple's BMW with some quarter million miles and many years RTW. Two up and they use Givi Keyless panniers + a cheap Walmart box on the back. They must have tried many options over the years and the Givi set up works fine, but they are trundling along, living on the road at a steady pace with a well practised routine.

Then again look at this picture. Fine for the autoroute but ask yourself if that setup could handle a ride up the KKH, a corrugated track in Africa or even filtering through Lima at rush hour?

People seem to polarise between 'soft' and 'hard' luggage, but I've listed a 3rd category in AMH6: 'firm luggage' - injection moulded Pelicases, Nanuks, Caribou and the like (mentioned by me earlier). Heavy and side-loading (mostly), but tough, lockable and like Givis, with rounded edges and corners. I have never used them on the sides but I imagine they dig in less on dirt spills (and so don't stress the mounts) + hurt less than a 90° metal edge when laying on your leg in a roadside ditch.

You have to add fashion or 'the look' into it too. Givis are 'the wrong look' ;-) though clearly Ken and Carol above, as well as many experienced overlanders have got beyond that.
There is also the fact that an alloy case looks more secure (tho' few locks are, IMO). With no personal experience, most first timers seem to choose alloy cases for a first trip, with a few migrating to softer baggage, especially for harder off-highway riding conditions. Very few seem to turn to Givis and the like.

Ch

Aluminium panniers,best ones,opinions please
 

The main thing is the racks. I mean the panniers have to be able to take the spills but the racks cops everything

My panniers are aluminum and no way will you find a competent welder with MIG TIG in Mongolia or other out of the way places

They are still bent and torn and will get repaired one day

But, when the rack snapped off in the middle of Mongolia, I thought of many ways to get myself going again and ended up stopping a truck and asking for fencing wire

The best result yet, the truck had a welder on board and fixed the non aluminum metal rack in five minutes


Keep that in mind, as well as what the previous poster talked about

My panniers are no longer fully waterproof nor straight but they are still on the bike and the now have character

As far as aluminum panniers I would say the Jesse bags are the most robust and quality.

That being said Caribou Luggage is pretty impressive, and designed to take a spill.
The latch is designed to break and release the case from the rack in a hard crash therefore saving the racks and your subframe.
Then you simply replace the $25.00 latch.

In 2003, two couple friends and us, followed the Silk Road across China. One of those bikes T-boned me in the center of the Jesse Bag, so that the outside was 'V' d into the inner or wheel side. I had it straightened at a Nanjing moto shop, and not only did it work perfectly but has never leaked. These cases are 'bullit-proof'. No damage to the frame or the bike. I'd estimate the speed at 70mph and we spun 180 degrees. So a heavy hit. Don't even ask why!!
As for the plastic discussion, I have an MTS 12 and the stock cases, while beautiful, and work quite well, would never consider and adventure trip with them. They are function following form. let alone SMALL even with the large lids, and to flexible in the mounting system.
Allen.