Which Gps?
 

I am doing an overland trip from London to Durban, Sa via the western route. i would love to hear from experienced bikers what their preferences are with regards to GPS's

Stay away from the TomTom Rider 2, in fact the 1 as well. I have had a number of these units and they all failed.

I can give no info on any other brands, but the ones I have used have been bike specific units.

I am still in negotiation with the repairers back home, they are very slow to respond, not what you need when on the road.


Cheers
TS

I went with Garmin because they have more maps available overall, and they have opensourced their technology such that it is easy for amateurs and 3rd parties to build custom maps for their platform.

When traveliing through China/Russia etc. I used their world map which gave me reasonable highway information but obviously no city maps - having said that, the maps were up to 20km off track in some parts of China but at least I knew I was heading in the right direction. :)

Once in Europe I was able to "source" a copy of the European map base and found this very good for getting me right to the front doorstep of most places I was targetting.

Recently purchased the Garmin GPSmap 60CSx and have been using an openstreetmap.org EU map (free, excellent for Europe, NOT routable) and smellybiker's wanderlust maps (for the time being only for the UK, they work but less detail than OSM stuff).

For a trip outside Europe I'm preparing (or in any area where the openstreetmap.org maps are patchy/incomplete) I'll use smellybiker's world maps (yearly membership of ~$50 required). I can send you screenshots of the smellybiker maps if you'd like to get an idea of the level of detail. They seem perfectly adequate to get you from A to B.

As for the unit, even though I like it as a product (design, features), I've already returned it to the factory and had it replaced for a faulty power on/off button, and have subsequently had a freaky incident last week when a waypoint I had captured decided to move a good 20 miles off the mark...

Alex

I have a 2610 and a 60Csx, and they're both great units.

The 2610 is perfect on my roadbike with its nice big colour screen, though it has no bateries so can't be used without bike or mains power. It's waterproof, but not really rugged. It also gives good voice directions over my Autocom unit.

The 60Csx is very rugged, and battery powered, as well as bike or USB powered. However the screen is a bit on the small side, and it isn't touch sensitive, there are proper buttons to operate it. It also won't give voice directions, though it does have a built in compass and altimeter.

For overlanding I'm taking the 60Csx. For Europe I'd go with the 2610 (or 2720, it's newer and better)

Plenty of maps out there, including Smelly Bikers, Tracks4Africa and of course the Garmin ones - if you can afford them!

My 60CSx also had a faulty power button. I tried to get it fixed, but Garmin Taiwan(!) told me to take it 'back' to the shop in Singapore. I told them that I bought it in Thailand and that I was in Malaysia, but just got the same reply. ESRI in Thailand eventually fixed the button under warranty, but it is getting bad again.

If you consider buying this model I suggest saving money and buying the 60Cx, without barometer and compass. The former seems to decrease the accuracy of altitude measurements (unless you calibrate it daily - unlikely), I have never been able to use the latter.

Routable OSM maps can be downloaded here: Worldwide routable Garmin maps from OpenStreetMap (updated weekly).

I read that some people have done mapping work in SA on smellybiker's maps, so you may want to check them out.

===> if you want good free maps may I suggest contributing your track logs and POIs back to some of the projects. The data has to come from somewhere...:mchappy:

Cheers,
Peter.

Edit: corrected typo in URL. Thanks for pointing it out.

Beddhist,
Something is missing in your posted URL: country maybe ??

Routable OSM maps can be downloaded here: http://garmin.da1400.info/routable.php (updated weekly).

JB

Beddhist,

The correct url should be:

http://garmin.na1400.info/routable.php


JB

hi,
i have garmin gpsmap 60csx and i think this is the one for overlanding. tough, waterproof, to many maps available, compass, battery last 15-18h, can be usb powered, and many other good stuff. did well on my morocco trip this year.
about 60cx and 60csx: there is a major difference, the chip!! the chip on 60csx gives better reception. google it and you will see it.

I have used a Garmin 276C for the past 3 years and it has been a bulletproof unit. The screen is big and visible in bright sunlight and has a fast processor. Add to this that you can load topomaps and it makes for a great combo. Garmin is phasing them out but the replacement units aren't as good.... There is plenty of chatter on advrider.com about that. YMMV

I have not be thrilled with my Garmin Zumo 500 ... it sometimes charges from USB, sometimes doesnt. Somtimes switches off randomly. It cant even calculate a route done on a previous day unless you reduce the number of track points to less than 300. It takes an absurd 5 minutes to boot up if you use a memory card with it that has either alternate maps or music on it.

Credit it where credit is due ... it still runs as well as it ever did and its been through hell. It is a durable package.

But I am unaware of anything better :(:funmeterno::thumbdown:

I use Garmin 60CSx. I think it's perfect for off-road and quite ok for on-road.
Certainly for on-road purposes there are better units but this is very versatile.
It's waterproof (IPX7) and it can work for up to 18 hours on batteries(you can power it via cable as well)

I use it with RAM Mount - perfect pair.

Regs.

My 2 pence;
The GPS is an addition to paper based maps. Hence having a small unit isnt too much of a big deal.
I have used a variety of options over the past 3 years, 2x Garmin Streetpilots a modern Megellan (and a very very old Magellan -1992) The HTC (O2) XDAiis and the XDA Orbit as well as a the Garmin CX60 and Etrex Legend CX.

One thing that has struck me is that the unit must have an additional memory card and one that you can save the tracks to.

The XDA Orbit
An amazing little all in one unit, to have as a data logger, and telephone PDA etc. I have loaded and used Ozi Explorer on it and tomtom as well as its own software. Although the TOMTOM software is very good for Europe it doesnt compare to the Garmin Units. You can Load Garmin software onto it, but it works out about the sam price as buying a Garmin GPS unit.

Magellan are really really hopeless, their Units are good, but the service truly revolting and non existent outside of the USA.

Garmin;
the Streetpilots are great attached to a bike, but use the ones with the additional CF or SD memory card, not the Garmin proprietary card, although it is useable, its not great.
The Garmin Etrex and 60series are very very good, ideal for motorcyclists who are in anyway offroad orientated.
You must get one with an additional memory card (micro sd)
The only negative is the smaller screens and the lack of voice turn directions, its only bleeps at you, though this is pretty useful. however unless you hook up to the helmet head set you are unlikely to hear any bleeping.
The 60 Series has better reception and is probably more durable, but for the Adventurer the main difference between the two is the battery life. (The Etrex series last twice as long on batteries) If you are doing any activity away from the bike, this makes a difference, eg hiking any overnight trails.

The main positive is being able to use a far more diverse number of Maps, Tracks4Africa are excellent, as are the Garmin maps.

Realistically though you do need a computer that runs Garmin's software to get the full potential out of these units.
I have not yet managed to run the Garmin software off the PDA unit yet.

Is there a way to persuade the Garmin 60CSx to save track data to the SD card? Or, to cut to the chase, is there a way to upload track (gpx) information without MapSource, i.e. from standard Internet Cafe workstations? That's what's bothering me most at the moment about this unit.

cheers

Alexandros

Yes, my unit saves all tracks as gpx files to the memory card. I normally just plug it into the USB port, put it into mass storage mode and move the files to my PC. I don't know whether you need to install USB drivers on a PC to access it this way, I have never tried connecting it to a PC that didn't have the drivers already installed (they get installed by MapSource.)

Cheers,
Peter.

Would love to, but:

1. I don't want to carry a laptop. How do I upload gpx information and POIs to OpenStreetMap? (remember OSM accepts timestamped GPXs only, which means only the active log gpx can be accepted. I cannot find this in my memory card (using Garmin 60CSx), and obviously installing MapSource in every Internet Cafe I go to is not an option.

2. Say I find an Internet Cafe twice a week. The track log will have recorded hundreds/thousands of km of routes, of different types, from highways to dirt tracks. Am I polluting the data of OSM if I just upload the entire track and tell it to auto-convert it to "ways"? Or do I have to do the impossible and re-trace every part of the track and manually tag it per highway/road/path type?

I am using the free OSM maps (have got SmellyBikers with me as well but haven't used them yet) and I'm going through a lot of uncharted territory and it bothers me that I can't add this data to OSM... but I don't know the solutions to the two issues above. Any suggestions appreciated!

Alexandros

When I put my Garmin 60Cx into Mass Storage mode (which might require the USB drivers being installed) I get a gpx file per day which look like:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="no" ?>
<gpx xmlns="http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1" creator="" version="1.1" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xsi:schemaLocation="http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1 http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1/gpx.xsd">
<trk>
<name>ACTIVE LOG154431</name>
<trkseg>
<trkpt lat="50.956967" lon="2.230920">
<ele>4.356</ele>
<time>2009-09-16T13:44:29Z</time>
</trkpt>
</trkseg>
</trk>
<trk>
<name>ACTIVE LOG155220</name>
<trkseg>
<trkpt lat="50.956921" lon="2.230905">
<ele>0.857</ele>
<time>2009-09-16T13:52:18Z</time>
</trkpt>


which seems to be perfectly well timestamped.

Other than via MapSource, I'm not sure how you access the "active" log or even what the active log represents. It seems to be the last few entries/days.

The quote from the OSM FAQ is

Your GPX should consist of trackpoints with valid timestamps. The ele(vation) tag is optional and will default to 0. Note if using a Garmin GPS device: Many of these units have the facility to save the track that strips out the timestamps.

I seem to have timestamps in mine -- though I've not tried uploading them to OSM. The proof is in the pudding.

It would be best if you go back an relabel things but knowing the track exists at all when you're in the boonies is a good thing (thinking back to the R704 across the Atlas mountains).

How often you would have to upload these files depends on how big the data card in your GPS is. I've had a couple of months worths of logs with no signs of the card becoming full (despite having large tracts of street level Europe mapping on it).

Cheers,

Ian

The active logs are stored in the unit's internal memory, so you won't see them on the mem card. Go to the main menu, then Tracks > Setup > Data Card Setup > check box "Log Track to Data Card". Go back to the previous screen and set Interval to "Most often". Also, you must turn off locking to roads: Setup > Map > General > "Lock On Road" > Off. Now you will have one .gpx file per day on your card.

An alternative to Mapsource is EasyGPS. It won't display any maps, but does allow you to edit your tracks. You install it to a USB stick and you can run it from there, or even from your GPS (either from the card plugged into a reader or from mass storage mode).

You can upload your GPS tracks to OSM any which way you like, but of course it's nicer to edit them as much as possible before. You shouldn't, however, just convert them to ways. Leave that to people who edit the maps. You should only convert tracks that have been properly edited.

You should try the Wanderlust maps, I think you will find quite a lot of detail there. You can also contribute to that project and Bob tells me he is about to launch some cool stuff to make it easier for people.

Bob has travelled in your area and probably has mapped a lot of places where you want to go.

Cheers,
Peter.

I have had a Magellan Crossover for over 2 years and found it great for "Downunder" but I am finding it difficult to find SE Asia maps or anywhere else other than the US, Can or Alaska. Has anyone else got maps for a Magellan for SE Asia?

Garmin 60Csx - it's robust, long battery life (you can run out of electricity in the middle of nowhere), a lot of commercial and free maps, useful electronic compass and barometric sensor (speed and distance is measured more precisely and you can check your route profile back home). Polish Mountain Rescue Service uses this model.

I tested it in India and SE Asia. Maps were good. 60Csx looks like an old mobile so you do not have to worry about thieves :)

I think Zumo for Europe, USA and Japan & 60csx for the rest.

Dont count on getting much utility (usefullness) from Smelly Bikers maps. Its VERY inaccurate, and you are just as well off with Garmin world map. None of the roads and tracks on Smelly Bikers maps in areas I went thru last year (central Asia, Mongolia and Siberia) were even CLOSE to being accurate, nor were they any more detailed than Garmin World Map that I also had with me. At maximum resolution, the only stuff i could see that was more detailed than Garmins world map, was the rivers. Smelly Bikers had much more watercourse detail, and curiously, identical road details. The additional river detail added nothing to my navigation and was often an annoying distraction dominating my screen.

I have recently discovered the OSM stuff and have contributed a couple of tracks. I think this is much more useful because they are real tracks people have made. The Smelly Biker stuff is just scanned maps from what I can tell. Even the main highway across Siberia is nowhere near accurate and hundreds of people record that track every year. So you would think it should be spot on.

I was quite disillusioned with the maps to be honest. In fact, I would have been disappointed if they were free. I had wrongly assumed they were collated tracks of peoples travels, but they arent. ...and OSM actually is.

I will use OSM in future.

As for hardware
 

Hard to go past Garmin ... they are the most compatible with various forms of customised data, and the easiest to find maps for.

I like to see the maps while riding so small screens like the 60CSx are no good for me. Fine if you are on foot, but doing 100km/h down a dusty bumpy road, you will not be able to read it. I have ridden with guys who have a 60csx and they always have to stop or slow right down to read it and manouevre the small buttons and controls on it with riding gloves. A bigger screen and bigger buttons comes in very handy - so you can read the maps, town names and control the unit while riding. Similarly a touchscreen allows you to scroll thru maps more easily while riding. Thats at least what the Zumo does. The 400, 450, 500 and 550 all have a screen twice as large and with twice as many pixels as the 60CSx, large buttons for gloved fingers and a touchscreen. The flipside is the Zumos are 25% heavier and more expensive.

I dont have any experience with the new 660 Zumo, but they have a considerably larger screen yet are lighter than the 400-550 Zumos.

I was surprised what the Garmin units still cant do. They have a very limited ability to plot predetermined routes into the unit. They have pitiful internal memories, and in many ways I have been disappointed with how they perform. But they are much more durable and rugged than any other brand out there and on a long bike trip, that counts for a lot. If there is one thing I was impressed with the Zumos, its how durable they are.

ive got a zumo and its excellent, i use it all the time.

saying that, since ive been using it my sense of direction is rubbish and i dont know where i am half the time. im not sure all these routable maps are needed, we did ok with paper not so long ago? and who doesnt agree its more fun to use a paper map or atlas when planning/dreaming a trip?

What would be wrong in using a Garmin NUVI 765wt inside a tank bag and connecting it to a headset? would this work because if so it would be very Cost effective ( leastwise for Europe)

+1

Only times I use a GPS without feeling like a wuss are:

1) Exploring off-road - if it all goes pear-shaped I need to know exactly how to get back to civilization. Now I just turn on track logging and I'm off, having a "just in case" safeguard.

2) In big cities (eg Mumbai) where you're looking for a needle in a haystack. Without a GPS and maps with street-level information one can waste hours going round and round in dangerous traffic.

In general I also find the GPS useful for note-keeping, recording POIs you don't want to spend hours finding next time etc. And contributing back to the OSM maps that have gotten me out of a pickle many times.

For regular traveling (cross-country open roads), it's not bad to stop and ask if in doubt - also helps you meet the locals which is invariably a positive experience.

-A

That's a little harsh Colebatch
 

:(
Colebatch, You're assuming someone has already sent Bob those tracks- but what if they have not and he has no data?
Bob works hard on his Wanderlust world-wide map compiling project- you must rememeber that it is dependant on individuals sending him their own tracks-
In some places there is a huge amount of information, right down to street level details (such as in B. Ayres etc) and in others, where no one has either been/and/ or sent their tracks in, there will be little or no information. It is a very big planet!

I am guessing that the areas you mention are more off the beaten track Colebatch than others.

I hope you will not mind my making a constructive suggestion? could you get in touch with Bob and send him your tracks-- From what you say, you are obviously very knowledgeable about those areas and many Hubbers and others would benefit from your tracks contribution.

Thanks in advance in the hope that you will be willing to share and do so :thumbup1:

The reason why Wanderlust, Garmin, Google and others have identical data is that it's freely available somewhere.

You've got a point there, but so has Bert: just with OSM, Wanderlust needs people to contribute their data, so new maps can be made. This way, over time, these maps can be better and more up-to-date than anything that Garmin et al. can produce commercially (because they have to pay for the data).

Bob is working hard behind the scenes and there will be some very good maps coming out of that project (Wanderlust) very soon. I know, because I spent a year mapping Thailand for it.

Cheers,
Peter.

Harsh, but fair ...
 

guys, your points are well taken and i am happy to contribute to better and more accurate mapping. As mentioned I have contributed several tracks in mongolia to OSM where there didnt have any data, and I will be contributing more Siberian data in the coming months

But it remains an major issue that the OSM project offers a lot more detail at least in the areas that i have good knowledge of, pretty much 100% accuracy (since its all contributed tracks) and is free.

Being constructive, Bob should incorporate the OSM data into his own maps, amending his own routes where necessary (though this raises ethical questions whether he is entitled to take OSMs free data and then resell it.) There needs to be much better discrimination on Smelly Biker maps between major roads, middle roads and minor roads, and same discrimination with towns.

As much as i would like the smelly biker project to work, being by a fellow bike traveller and all, I found it unuseable and inaccurate, and it appears the OSM project is a long way ahead of bobs ... and as i said, is free.

I previously used Garmin World map, then bought Bobs maps, and took V1.60 and 2.03 with me on the last trip, tried one, tried the other, wasn't happy with either of his maps and went back to the Garmin product. So having paid $50, you might be able to understand I feel disappointed.

Bear in mind guys that the people who are disappointed here are not people whinging from the sidelines, they are people who have paid for the product. Its not like a KTM owner slagging off BMWs without ever having ridden one. Its people who believed in the product enough to shell out the money in the first place, who wanted to support a fellow biker, and then having got the product, find its not as good as (a) they felt it should be and (b) the competition ... when you combine that with the fact the competition is free ... its not a pretty overall picture.

Wanderlust:
+ Purpose: To create maps for overlanders.
+ Editors: One
+ Map data contributors: A dozen?
+ Result: A proprietary product. It costs money, is only provided in one format, is only licensed for a single purpose and a single use.
+ Project viability: Dubious in the long term. It all depends on Bob being able & inclined to work on it. At some point someone will have to be found to continue his work.

(please correct me if I'm wrong on the above, this is just my understanding based on the information published on the Wanderlust website and threads on the HUBB)

OpenStreetMap:
+ Purpose: To map everything on the planet
+ Editors: Hundreds/thousands (everyone can be an editor, tools freely available)
+ Map data contributors: Thousands
+ Result: Free. It costs nothing, is provided in many formats, you can do ANYTHING you want with it.
+ Project viability: Good chances of long-term survival due to distributed nature. Not dependent on a single person.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/stats/data_stats.html for OSM statistics.

To me, OpenStreetMap.org is the wikipedia of mapping. It already offers excellent value to its users and is constantly being improved. I see no reason to spend time and effort working on* anything else.

Alexandros

* "working on": using, contributing to, paying for

Good man Colebatch :thumbup1: I am sure Bob & many others will appreciate your sharing.

Apapadop - it's Bob's rice bowl and he does work on it daily just as HU is Grant's rice bowl. It's only fair they get paid for their hard work. I don't recall bmw offering free servicing! I understand your point of view; perhaps you should get in touch with Bob to discuss- I believe certain of your assumptions are incorrect - Bob is best placed to clarify. I've p.m'ed him.

You can (e.g. make Garmin maps from it), if

• you download the OSM data,
• buy cgpsmapper Pro to produce auto-routing maps and
• spend 100's of hours learning how to produce usable GPS maps.

I have uploaded a bit of data to OSM and have found that most of my POIs simply don't show up on the GPS. If you read the forums you will find that OSM at present is basically a map database. It needs others to produce usable maps from the data. What you see on the web is just a preview, so to speak. The guy who runs the Garmin conversion process is doing a fine job, but as I said, most POIs just aren't there.

Bob is also trying to map the world, but it's squarely aimed at bike travellers. I've had the privilege of alpha testing a new system where people can edit tracks and waypoints into the map on their own PC, upload the result and shortly after the GPS map in MapSource is updated and can be sent to the GPS.

I think if somebody would step in and provide free webhosting to Bob, then perhaps his maps could be free, too. In any case, he has said that the new Thailand map will be free to all and as far as I can tell it will have more and more accurate roads than any other free Thailand map (although OSM is getting close - if you can read Thai).

Let us not lose the forest for the tree here.

You can do ANYTHING with OpenStreetMap, including support an earthquake response, which would not possible or legal with Wanderlust.

As for the "I-don't-care-about-the-world-I-just-want-good-biker-maps" person, a practical side-by-side comparison of different GPS maps should suffice.

Alexandros

Didn't notice if this was mentioned, but take a look at this for something smaller:

New zūmo 220 Scales Down Size and Price of Motorcycle Navigation

cheaper, and available in the next few weeks I understand.

I suppose I ought to read this long thread now...

d.