Just how crap are the BMW650´s
 

Im currently in South America and bumping into many overlanders, especially at the hotspots...

Well, as you can imagine.. im seeing hundreds of every imaginable travel bike out there in all different forms and disguises..

Well, ill get to my point.....

Im coming back over here in 2-3 years with a buddy who wants me to recommend him a comfortable, fairy low seated and economical bike.. I want to recommend the (new model) BMW F650GS for him as it ticks all the right boxes, BUT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Out of all the bikes I see, the ones which are broken down, failing and falling to bits are the BMW´s, usually the 650´s.

These are new bikes too or well looked after 3-4 year olds with low mileage..

Eg:

Fuel pump disintegrating on a new 650,
Regulator failing on new 650,
Head bearings shagged after 12,000 miles,
Fork seals leaking after only road use,
Ignition electrics dropping contact
ABS failing

The list is pretty endless and peoples trips are being made pretty miserable. Soo many travelers are cursing their 650 Beemers..

Now I know people will say "But theres more BMW´650 on the road than other bikes", but thats just is not true by a long way..

So, is the 650 weak and overly electrically complicated or is it just coninsidence that its just the ones I see ???

Im a qualified moto mechanic but have limited experience on BMW´s, so id appreciate your feedback... Please try and try objective !!

Thanks

Is BMW 650 a dud?
 

My wife rides a Bmw650 GS, only 22 000 km so far, (I ride a r100GS pd). I am responsible for maintenance. On the plus side the 650 has remarkable fuel economy 4 to 4.5 litres / 100 km, even fully loaded and 120 km/h. It has a low seat and handles more like a trail bike. It will hold a lot of luggage. It has all the power you need.
On the negative side, they all suffer from the "hesitation" problem. They vibrate more than most, and are a mongrel to work on. The latter would be a big minus if it was breaking down all the time. Hers, almost new, has been reliable. It chucked the chain once. I have a love/hate relationship with it. We plan to ride 20 000km around Australia on our bikes next year. Would I buy one? Perhaps. I think it is a good bike for a woman.

The F650 is one of the last 650-class bikes I would choose.

Gotta love BMW marketing.....:)

F650
 

splash
"mongrel to work on"?
Yes. maybe, but far easier that than trying to deal with BMW dealers with anything other than a thick wad of high value notes.

It is like trying to swim in treacle.

Actually my secondhand F650 Dakar saw me do 17,000 miles in 4 months across lots of Russia, back to Europe and on to Gib and back. Lots of no surfaced roads (is that off road?). The bike used 2 chain and sprocket sets.
On return it needed new fork staunchions and head races - both done under warranty and i was advised that the chain was worn. Looks and feels OK to me.

I suffered the usual BMW 'run-around' with different dealers telling me different things (which one was telling untruths, and why?) so I could not get the Navigatior II screen repaired (under warranty or not!) and BMW declined the warranty claim for the leaking topbox lid seal for lack of an original invoice to me (it was original equipment on the bike to the first owner!). Needless to say, having paid the dealer for this, the box filled with water in a storm within 15 minutes of leaving the workshops. Initially they tried to get out of it saying the warranty work was not guaranteed because the bike's warranty had expired while in their workshops. BUT I HAD HAD TO PAY FOR THE WORK and do they not warranty their work to cash paying customers? Grrrrr

I met the same attitude in BMW dealers in Moscow, London and Seville. Gleaming, white marble, smoked glass and stainless steel palaces, full of smartly dressed people whose only real talent seems to be ignoring and avoiding eye contact with a mere customer trying to get his bike sorted.
It must be BMW policy as they all showed exactly the same air of arrogance and indifference to a customer. Or at least they all did me. But as a 65 year old member of a well established profession, maybe I don't fit their customer model sufficiently.

Treacle, indeed.

BMW Dealers Attitudes....
 

A blatant Plug for a Good Man..

I met EXACTLY the same high handedness and aloofness from Wo**aston BMW in Northampton. (ONE sales guy did have a friendly attitude but he later went to work for a dealerships in Towcester selling Harley Davidson.) The above company couldn't get your money off you fast enough and gave naff all in the way of service in return....... so i rode 3 or 4 miles to see a chap called Phil Kingston at Euroclassics, WHAT A DIFFERENCE!, Phil owns and runs Welcome to the Euro Classics with his wife Dinah, and if he doesn't know about it or how to fix it, it hasnt occured yet!

Phil is the Man in Northampton! half the price of dealers and 1,000% better service!

Martyn

Did you see any 06 or 07 Dakars? That's what we'll be bringing in November. I hope that (as with most bikes) the last few years are the best models.

Anyway. The fuel pump and regulator are pretty dodgy. With the head bearings I think if might depend whether or not the owner lubed the bearings himself as the factory put next to no grease on them. The same goes for the swing arm ones.
The fork seals are weak, but did those guys have gaiters on them?
Ignition electrics dropping contact. What do you mean by this?
ABS failing. There have been some problems with the switch. But when you mean failing, do you mean it won't kick in when it should or they can't turn it off? In any case. In most places you'd turn it off anyway I reckon. Unfortunately I didn't have the option of not having ABS, but I wouldn't mind it not working.

BMW's DO tend to have more than their share of probs based on what
I've seen in person and heard from "experts" at shops and on line.

We saw the new 650GS at the London Bike show this weekend and I was really impressed with it on the stand - it's gone right up my 'what bike next' list... so very interested in this discussion.... what I can't work out at the moment (because BMW didn't have any literature on the stand about the new bike) is what the difference is between the old F650 and the new 650GS - have they fixed some of the problems or is it just the same bike re-branded?

Here's Stace on the said new bike... you have to admit... very pretty... well the bike is ;-)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2224/...883ec5.jpg?v=0

F650s reliability?
 

I have two, a '95 Funduro ex-rental with 147,00km and a 2001 GS ex-rental with 80,000km on it. The older one I bought with 65,000km and rode the rest up myself, with only a waterpump replacement at 142,000km and about four sets of fork seals. I have had no problems with fork seals since I fitted gaiters. Why BMW didn't do that I will never know.

The newer one has done 15,000km for me without a part being thrown at it. I would say rental bikes would get fairly hard treatment, but you would hope they also get good maintenance too. I'm also sure that a travelers bike would get a harder time. I use them as they are designed for; lots of loaded up touring (two-up and we ain't little people!!), gravel, four wheel drive tracks and even riverbeds. I often don't spare the horses, and the older Funduro is about to be raced in the NZ BEARs (British, European and American racing) class.

Neither use oil, both are still nice to ride. I have three bigger bikes in the shed, which hardly ever turn a wheel now, because I enjoy the GS so much. Are they as reliable as some other bikes? Probably not as reliable as an XT600 Yamaha (but what else is!!) or a DR650, but they are way way more comfortable, especially two-up and more economical on fuel. They have to be more reliable than the BMW twins, from the stories of the many travelers who have stayed here. One lot even sent their GS twin home and bought a Funduro here in NZ to match the other one they were traveling with.

Of course YMMV.

Kind regards

Nigel in NZ

We sold my wifes F650GS before our Americas trip because of the reasons Ted describes, every trip I went on I met loads of people saying the same thing. When you are about to embark on a 25000 mile trip dealing with all the maintenence and repairs involved, ease of servicing and repair become VERY important!
She got it as her first bike after passing her test and loved it, but if you take a close look at it you wonder who designed and built it? Does not live up to the BMW legend in my opinion.
I'll take two old TTR,DR,XR,XT or the like thank you.

The problems iv seen have all been on new bikes. By this i mean BRAND new and upto to 5 years old. The old funduros seem to be doing ok (from what few iv seen).

There are a good mix of bikes out here as you can imagine and they are all taking a pounding. Be it, high mileage in the hot sun or days of ripio and bad roads..

The bikes which seem to have no problems are XT´s, KLR650s, Africa Twins, To be honest, anything Japanese ! Dominators and transalps zipping all over the place with no issues.

My XT has taken an obsoute pounding with crashes without complaint. My only issue is the fuel consumption and poor quality suspension.

BMW marketing is obviously fantastic with the LWR etc and their bed mates at Touratech helping out a great deal. Many first time travellers here come with the BMW´s just because they thought it was the only or best option as thats what everyone seems to be buying and using.

Fork seals and bearing go on all bikes of course but everything with BMW, the frequency seems to be more than just coninsidence. Also, even basic maintanece is overly complicated. Removing half the bike to change plugs, more to do the valve clearances and having to remove half the front fairing to check and top up your water is simply... REDICULOUS !!

As to answer the question about ignition and ABS, one bike would simply cut out because the contacts somewhere the ignition circuit would "on/off". And the ABS problem i discribed was contant warning light or it just not working.

As I can detremine from other travellers, parts are very hard to come by or LUDERCROUSLY expensive when they can and customer service !!!!..... I need to say no more on that issue here.

Take into consideration that im talking OVERLANDING here.. Many a GS will never see a dusty track in its life and there are many shining well maintained examples on the tarmaced streets and central heated garages of the west. This is what keeps the statistics looking rosey in the reliablity stakes. (In my opinion of course)

By all means, many run forever with no problems and i EVERY bike has its weekness but in my eyes, the BMW650 has too many issues. Maybe the new F800GS has addressed all these issues ?? We shall see.

If I were chosing my bike again, id probably go for a DR650, Africa twin (although heavy) or an older transalp.. Im also considering the new tenere or KTM 690 adventure but only time will tell on those. My XT is bullet proof but I am not getting great economy from it and i prefer something a little smoother at speed.

The XT is a good bike, if I should have bought a single-cylinder bike I would probably have ended up with an XT.
The XT also have issues (like the fifth gear, suspension, lack of power ++), but it’s a great bike.

A friend of mine has a 650 with 140kkm on the clock, it has been used daily all the year (and we do have pretty hard winters up here) and he have changed a top-gasket and a waterpump (or was it a seal?).
Another friend of mine has a Funduro, no problems except the “puking petrol syndrome”, I guess the bike is 12 years by now.
The funduro is a nightmare to work on (compared with a boxer), but not worse then my old Honda.

Personally I don’t think the new 650 looks like a traveler bike, but the 800 looks fine. Time will show if it works…

AliBaba
"Personally I don’t think the new 650 looks like a traveler bike, but the 800 looks fine. Time will show if it works… "


Isn't the new F650GS and the new F800GS exactly the same sans the size of the pots? V-twin same modified/new frame etc??
If so why would the 800 be better than the 650?? According to the BMW specs at the bike show last weekend the 650 had 70 ish BHP with the 800 it was something like 85 BHP. Weight; again the was little between them of the top of my head 10-12 kgs.......
??

I left the US in September 2005. I am still riding. My bike is a 2002 F650 Dakar. I bought it used. I have now ridden around the world with this bike. I had new pump seals installed at Dakar Motos in Buenos Aires as a precaution. My after-market Ohlins was broken in the Sudan and was repaired in Germany at a cost of 411 Euros. The bike has seen me through an RTW of more than 45,000 miles with no other problems (OK, 3 punctures!). BMW does not finance me in any way. Just one riders experience. From where I sit the Dakar is a solid mount, the standard 650 feels less so. Good luck to all of you who actually take the ride! Ted, kudos to you for meeting hundreds of riders, I only met 6 riders during my year riding in the Americas- excepting the boys/girls at Dakar Motos. Ride safe. Hook.

Hook,
Your experience is on the old 650(2002) and those
are champs. The newer stuff, everything in the last 5 years from BMW including their clothing, is becoming more suspect.

BMW nowadays is more interested in selling the roundel...


MollyDog,
I think your criticism's are valid about their dealer network. I can say I interacted multiple times with about 15 BMW dealers globally and 25 dealers overall...for the sake of interaction, not out of necessity for parts, etc. Having a pleasant experience with a BMW dealer was more an exception to the rule; but the converse was true of Honda dealers...nicest guys on the planet!

There are good BMW dealers out there but they are slowly fading into the sunset...which is fine by me as the quality/durability of their products started fading a long time ago.

Differences (there might be more):
-Forks, 800 has sturdy USD forks with longer travel
-Suspension rear, 800 has WAD
-Suspension travel is 45-50 mm longer on the 800
-Wheels, 650 has cast alu, 800 has spokes
-Wheels front, 650 has 19" front wheel, 800 has 21
-Brake front, 650 single 300 mm disc, 800 double 300 mm disk

IMHO rims and suspension are among the most important thing for a travel bike.

Who knows the objective facts?
 

"Fuel pump and reg/rec" sounds just like an Africa Twin or a VFR to me. Definitely a Honda thing.

Head bearings: could be a Suzuki, straight out of the factory?

Fork seals: what have the bikes been doing, where have they been, who was riding them and how hard?

I am not saying that Beemers are faultless, far from it, but there is no "well-based" study I know of that gets clear statistics on this subject.
(A survey of bikes in the manner that is done for cars).

The best equivalent that I have seen on here is the thread in the KTM forum which tells it, warts and all.

Edde, when I spoke of BMW dealers I meant the info I've gotten first hand from very long term BMW dealer owners and mechanics that I've ridden with for 20 years.

What happened to the shock? I'm actually thinking about getting Ohlins. Or would you say something else (like Wilbers maybe) would be better? Ohlins are very popular over at F650.com, but here they seems to have issues mostly.

As for the fork seals. I think (unsupported) that most of that is due to not using fork gaiters. That is from looking again at F650.com. Other than that, it should probably be considered a weak point like the water pump and just a case of taking some spares. Beats other issues though like frame weak points, etc.
Ted. Did you see any subframe bolts broken, or crash in the subframe? I'm thinking about strengthening this

but few ever see the abuse offered on a RTW ride.

Patrick

What is the opinion of brands like Technoflex and Penske, etc

A lot of BMWs comes with the Showa (incl the old 650) and as you can see in other post they tend to fail.

Good suspension-units are expensive and I think that most bikes come with crappy suspension. “The average rider doesn’t notice the difference anyway so why spend the extra money?”
WP has slowly decreased the quality on many setups during the years and maybe others have done the same.

I would say that a good shock needs an overhaul at 30-50kkm. Not necessarily because it leaks or is broken but because it wears out. An overhaul is typically around 200€ and the difference it makes its worth even more.

Often compression-damping is increased a lot to compensate for extra weight, this (combined with the weight) increases the temperature of the shock which again decreases its lifespan.

My stock Beemer shock failed, and considering that shocks have to get rebuilt anyways between 30-50k, when mixing off -road riding, I went with a lower priced unit that was supported by a shock specialist who sold Wilbers, YSS, HyperPro and WP. I chose the YSS and have been happy.

The YSS is half the price, so the cost of the rebuild later on is paid for when you don't choose the more expensive ones. The quality of Ohlin's is remarkable but has gone downhill recently. In fact, i looked at picking up an old Ohlins and having it rebuilt, because the price point and durability were extremely attractive.

Anyways...the YSS is a solid shock and for the price, definintely worth a look, IF coming from a shop that knows how to set it up for you.

I came across YSS on a google run for suppliers in Australia but never heard of them before. What's their story and who run them stock? Also, say if we were to consider a top 10, where would these lesser known brands fit in? Thing is that I don't know how to guage where the quality is distinguished between all the brands. I assume component qualitiy.

Set up by an experienced shock shop is a huge part of the shock performance...i.e. choosing the right spring that should be coupled with the shock unit(based on rider variables...)

Is YSS as good as an Ohlins/WP? Tough to say and based on what criteria?

For me considering I was paying for the shock AND future rebuild, the YSS offered a compelling price argument.

I don't believe we all need the best ALL the time from a practical point of view, except for bragging right perhaps.

In this case, second best is an improvement from stock...any aftermarket shock will be compared to your stock F650.

There not that bad
 

Like a lot of forums on many diffferent subjects people have a tenancy to 'only' post 'problems' about various subjects. This might be to have a winge about an item or seek advice to make something better.

I personally think there are few people who go about how good something is as they are generally they are getting on with doing what they like useing it. There's lots of bikes out there with owners who don't use forums at all.

I have had a few different types of bikes over the years and most recently a BMW F650gs which I have just completed riding from the UK to Oz having covered 45000km. The bikes has in total done 75000km, 25000km when I bought it and 5Km I did running around London on it.

Generally speaking the bike has performed brilliantly. Whilst it has been in my ownership it has has suffered from a rear shock failure (which I understand they are prone to) and a stuffed fuel pump. Aside from this the remainder of the items have been rear and tear. They have been items like brake pads, bearings, chain & sprockets etc etc. It is not the most exiting bike to ride but it has been a exteremely reliable bike to own and even more so on my overlanding adventure. I also believe you to take into account for people who overland around the world 'are to asking the bike to do too much' Simple thing like it is overloaded, is it packed propertly, is the weight even etc etc.

Realibility not only comes from how well a bike is looked after but also how it it ridden. On this trip it was ridden over some hard terrain and alot of shitty very rough roads with potholes the size of the bike and in for some of the time 2 up. Again it soaked them without too much fuss and simply proved to be a good all round bike for my trip. From a personal point of view I would have liked a 6th gear and some more top end power for cruising.

What I will agree with is the comments about the dealer networks. I don't think they are brilliant but more they point most of them seem to hold very little in the way of parts even basis parts. I visited two massive brand new dealers in Malaysia and Singapore with lots of new bikes on offer however in both instances there service/parts area was not great unless you rode a brand new 1200gs. In contrast the little workshop a few miles down the road was able to supply tyres, brake pads, sprockets, chain tensioner, oil & air filter and a few other parts all in a efficient manner and probably cheaper.

I have to say I have had a happy ownership with mine. Would I take one again probably, no reason not to. It still starts everyday without hesitation

Now mention Touratech and I will get started!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers

What shock did you replace yours with?

I agree with everyone and in no way have any doubt about our bikes. The only thing that is on my mind is the shock for the simple fact of the cost outlay of it. If I would get a new shock it'll be set up for the weight and riding that we're intending. The mistake we made on our last trip on old XT Tenere's was to ride with a stock setup which proved unhappy with the additional weight. Most stocks are setup for about a rider of 80-90kg I hear. Add about 50kg of luggage and it's a whole different experience.

Very happy with our Bikes!
 

We travelled around Australia in 2004 and then through Southern Asia on a F650GS and a Dakar. We did 20000+km without any hiccups. The bikes weren't brand new, demo models, so may have had all the problems sorted out. I have to agree with the attitude of dealers, in Australia anyway. However, when my seals went in Malaysia we went to the dealer in Shah Alam who did both bikes for a fraction of the cost in Oz. After that he arranged to take us out to KL for food. He took us to a seafood market which was outstanding and we had to force him to share the bill even though it was probably a days wage for him.

The bikes are coming to Thailand again and I hope they perform as well as they did last time we used them more than just around the block

Andrew

My F650GS (2003) has done 110.000km so far.... and still going. Never had any major problems although I take the maintenance very serious ( this doesn't include cleaning). I replaced the front fork with a 48mm WP (Technoflex inside) and the rearshock with a Technoflex. The exhaust is a Laser, no petrol problems at all exept the powerloss with bad fuel and high altitudes. I've done the Central stans and Mongolia with the bike. Believe me Mongolia is tough for every bike. So if you want a reliable bike, the F650GS is the one.................ehhhhhhh this seems to be done with a K75 aswell...
Hi Edde, nice to hear from you again.

GRTZ,
Sjeng

Sjeng,
Good to hear from you! Yea an old F650, pre 2002, like yours is quite the workhorse...but the newer Bimmer stuff is still a ? in my mind...

I think if you chose from any of the bikes in the pic below...you'd be all right to go overland anywhere...save Antarctica!

dscn8209.jpg

I have had more problem with the dealers than my old 1999 F650 it self. I ended up trading my f650 in for a DL650 dew to it. My rectifier overheated and burend out the bike dint start. Sent it in to the dealer told them to check it out they spent 4 months not fixing it. After that they stared to work on it. Then it was 2 months for them to start looking for problem, for some reason they drained the oil and then ran it around, and found a oil pressure problem. Then told me they need to crack the case to replace the oil pump (ahhh no you dont its on the other side of the motor just remove 4 bolts). After posting my problem on F650.com I was told they dint know how to fix it, and where lying to me. Well after the bike was in a shop for half a year I pulled it got it home did an oil change replaced the chain tensioner. I found out why there was oil problem, no oil. DAM FOOLS draind the oil but dint put any back. F...ING HELL I bring a bike in to a shop for a electrical problem tell them what I think it is, tell the to check F650.com ask real nice for an electrical check and its 4 moths befor they put in an old broken R/R in then they try to brake my bike by running it with no oil. FYYFF! F you BMW service! I was not happy then and not happy now with them.

I fixed the bike! I got the parts! I did the work! I then traded it in! It was not the bike, BMWs do take more parts to keep going but I am willing to pay for it. Its BMW service they suck. If its not a R1200 they dont want in there shop. There answer to the problems the bike was having was to trade it in for a new R1200GS.

I may have been hasty on trading in the F I still miss it but I was mad I dont like dealing with people that will mess with you gust because they think they can. The f650 community is like few others and f650.com is one reason to get a F bike. BMW service is a reason not to.

Sjeng,

What's your opinion of the technoflex shock? If it can take the bounding of Kazachstan, I'm happy with it.

Goed te horen dat alles goed ging.

Taco

I am quickly starting to get tired of the problems that my F650 has started to have. For the most part my problems have been fixable, but having to fix something all the time is so annoying on a F650. Like Ted was saying, to top the radiator up you have to remove the side panel which requires taking the turn signal holder off (4 bolts), unlocking and removing the seat.

Th oil pressure sensors go every 20,000 miles so make sure you carry a couple extra of those.

Since no one chimed in on this ... I will.
BMW: Made In China.

Has a nice ring to it, no?:rofl:

The more you take you panels off, the better and quicker you get at it. But yeah, it is a bit of a pain. I actually put some spotties infront of the indicators, so I've made it even harder for myself. But how often do you have to top up your coolant? Serious question, as I've never had a watercooled bike before and didn't realise I needed to take some. Also, how much does it need periodically. I'm putting red coolant in to make it easier to see through the check slot.

Thanks for the tip on the sensor. The Chain Gang actually had an FAQ on it without me knowing so I'll definately bring some.

Have you got a quick list on what else went? I'll be going to SA this year as well.

I'm more pissed off that the filter is that hard to get too. And that the filter clamp to the battery tray is not threaded but uses self tapping srews instead. I've already busted one. Big desing flaw I reckon.

Hey Taco,

The Technoflex did take the bumps and "roads" of Kazachstan and those of Kirgistan and Mongolia aswell. It's quality stuff. The manufacturer is an old engineer from WP who wanted to improve the WP shocks. Now the Wilbers shock is shameless copied from Technoflex, they're still fighting in court.
Short... a great shock.

Hey Edde,

How's the motor-renting-on-the-top-floor-of-an-empty-building-
with-cold-beer-and-a-pole-with-a-dancing-lady-bussiness going, or was this Bill's idea to become entrepeneur of the year?

Grtz,
Sjeng.

Just in case anyone derives wrong deductions from this thread
 

I had thought this thread might make a bit more progress in pulling together some owners' facts about the F650GS, second generation, which is the bike that Ted first asked about.

Having gone off topic more often than it has stayed on the topic, one could deduce from the replies in this thread that the bike in question does not function in South America (in fact it may not be "fit for purpose" on that continent) but it works pretty much OK in the rest of the world - obviously this is not very logical and is unlikely to be true (unless someone can come up with an explanation beyond this, I am inclined to reject this hyphothesis).

There are other threads that may give a more balanced view, if only because they have a far bigger number of replies (and far more of them will be on topic):-

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...klr-650-a-5001

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...s-bmw-gs-26997

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...n-f650gs-29055

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...y-f650gs-28232

Put that load of reading together and ........ you might have a balanced view!!

The F650 is a street bike, not an off road bike.

That shouldn't matter too much....

1. Locals ride street bikes off road often and they seem to get pretty good longevity with minimal maintenance.
2. Considering the $$s the new BMW's cost, its fair to expect better quality machines. Its seems their older stuff is holding up better than their newer stuff...e.g. the older F650s...pre 2002.

Hell a BMW K75 is a street bike and I took it RTW with minor issues...so I personally have confidence in my theories enough to put them to the test...


Bottom line...the old F650s were pretty good bikes, but ANY of the newer stuff coming from BMW has a bit more to prove in terms of durability/quality...including the F800GS

F650GSs in Africa
 

This thread has some experiences of riding with an organised expedition in Africa, and there is no mention of poor bikes (maybe, just maybe, they all took their own bikes - but one, at least, did not):-

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...highlight=kudu

These are the bikes that they have been using in Africa:-
Kudu Expeditions

i.e. standard or Dakar versions of the recently replaced F650GS.
I see that Kudu are swopping over to the F800GS rather than the new F650GS BTW.
My guess is that this company knew enough about riding in Africa to make a sensible short list of bikes to provide for their customers and, ultimately, to make a well informed decision about the single type of bike to be used.

Again, I am not claiming that these bikes are perfect (I, for one, don't like dismantling half the plastics to get at the battery etc).

Well, if you have 2-3 landcruiser's/support vehicles following you, with a mechanic,a trailer of a couple spare 650's and parts, you only ride relatively new bikes and you spend 40% MAX of your time off tarmac...you better be able to do the ride or "expedition" without many issues. Kudu does...I spent about 3 hours talking to their guides on the border or Morocco and Mauri while waiting for exit stamps.

IF I bought the bike new and paid the $10-15k, my expectation is I shouldn't have any part failures for 50k, except for worn sprocket or chain.
Unfortunately, the newer Beemers don't offer that confidence anymore...

Again, pre 2002 F650...is another story.

MotoEdde "...except chains and sprockets"

Moving from shaftdrive for many years, I am surprised that my Dakar gets through chains and sprockets faster that tyres or brake pads. 21,000 miles and about to get its fourth set - despite regular check/adjust/lube.

This is not how my last chain drive bike (N400 Superdream) lasted. Bought second hand and only had to replace once in the 25,000+ miles I rode it.

Is it me, this individual machine or is this usual for Germany's finest ?

Tony,
Me thinks you have a very special problem here. Did you say four sets of chain/sprockets in 21,000 miles?:eek3:

Most decent chains, even on big bore bikes (like my Vstrom1000) will go over 20,000 even with rough treatment. There are some really crap chains/sprockets out there, and when I was in the UK a dealer tried to sell me some of these crap chains. I went elsewhere.

I've had very good luck with DID VM chains. These are X ring 525 chains, or 520 too. Never mix worn sprocket with new chain or vice versa. All new to start, then replace your countershaft at 10K miles. Chain should last to 25K miles no problem.

Use Quality sprockets, not budget ones. I like OEM usually but very dear. Try
AFAM, JT, or Renthal. Hundreds of Vstrom riders on various boards run the DID VM X ring chains and all go well over 20k miles with them, many even over 30K miles.

Note: Adjustment is critical.

Patrick:scooter:

so the EU and other markets will be their prime focus for now.

Agree with everything there Mollydog and sorry if my post is confusing - I was trying to refer to the recently available model that Ted asked about originally - the single cyl F650GS which has been marketed as a standard bike or a Dakar version.
Kudu are replacing the single F650 with the twin F800 according to their website, but the point was that they have used the F650GS single, up until recently, for travelling the length of Africa.

I read somewhere that Rotax switched production from the single to the twin engine quite a few months ago.

The "brand new" F650GS:
For UK insurance the bike capacity would be declared as 800cc - the ins company would not even ask the guy who wants insurance but simply refer to the BMW database of bikes by year of manufacture, once the owner tells them which bike they want to insure.

This bike will be marketed in the UK with a conversion to 33 HP available at no extra cost because folk who have just passed their licence are not allowed to ride a bike that is more powerful than 33 HP for the first two years after getting their licence. (The same thing has been done with the "old" F650GS and it is just a simple fix on the throttle to stop the full movement).

Yes, I can see that the weak $ has stuffed the US market for importing this bike - no point at all in selling it at the list prices in the US when BMW can sell it elsewhere for more profit per unit: as long as demand exceeds supply (how long?) I think that situation will remain, or the $-euro exchange rate changes drastically.

Orders are being taken at about £5300, give or take the "farkles" - the big BMW release weekend is 8/9 March for this one and the F800GS (the latter is "on offer" at about £6750 from memory).

Iraq in a pointless war we cannot hope to win.

My guess is that this company made these decisions based on marketing needs, and very little else.

Not a bad thought - my impression of the market here is that they are still selling pretty well as a second hand bike: a 1 year old standard model in a dealership has an asking price only a little less than they cost when new a few months ago (and there was only one on the showroom floor that I visited; loads of used 1200GSs though).
The Dakar is probably even more desirable now that they are not available new - we talked about it previously - that name has to come on some future BMW model!

BTW, :offtopic:, right now the Triumph Street Triple has a waiting list in the UK into Aug-Sept this year, and anyone selling a second hand one can ask more than the new list price at present - but they are few and far between!
The salesman I spoke with thinks that the new Tiger Cub could be released later this year- say August as T did with the Street Triple in 07 - but I am not so sure. If they can keep selling the Street version like that, then why bother with another version for a smallish market?

After reading other thread re BMWs it does seem like they are going down the cost cutting route only the 1200s are true BMWs now as the others are using lots of chineese parts. Read MCN and theres plenty about it. The new 800s seem to be suffering with reliability issues too. I also think they are selling loads because of LWR/LWD. Come on KTM bring out a model where I can touch the ground.

At present I believe all the Euro companies are having a tough time simply making a better bike than a KLR or DR at a reasonable price. Both these bikes original designs are over two decades old.
Nothing New Under The Sun.

I appreciate reading some true facts regarding any 800 problems.

Maybe that's why BMW are producing parts in Asia. Aren't most if not all Euro parts/ bikes produced locally? Higher wages = higher cost. Lower wages often mean lower quality. I've noticed that with outdoor companies moving their production to cheap asian companies having trouble (at first at least) with keeping the quality up.

As for the later F quality. I'm still not conviced. It might be worse, or it may not. When I was doing the trip through northern Asia, whenever I heard about a KTM it was about a failing KTM and I didn't see any of them. But read any forum around and it's often no.1. Similar for the DR. It's not highly rated in Chris Scott's book and I haven't seen any or heard of any on and overland trip. That might change on the next one.

Personally, if you prepare for a trip I believe you prepare to resolve most if all weak points of your perticular bike. And if anything else happens you get by and consider it an adventure. We had 2 Lambeth prepared 3AJ Tenere's and had some issues (failing one way starter gear for one which made it interesting), but just got by and kept going. Eveyone else we met had and did the same.
This forum is aimed at overland trips, not weekend warrior rides. Who has ever heard of an overland trip that hasn't had any issues? If personally don't like the idea of a trip where everything is smooth sailing. But each their own I suppose.

So, factual to you?
Where else have you gathered facts or information for forming an opinion?

So, factual to me what?

Where have I heard what I suggested? Page 42 of AMH. Fact
Where have I heard nothing about them? Between Dublin and Vladivostok. Fact
Where have I heard good things about them? ADVrider and local (Aussie) adventure biking mags. Fact
Mostly when they consider the value for money. No frills just go. Everyone has the same complaints about them though.

What opinion have I voiced on the DR exactly? I take it you've got one and think highly of it?

Back on to the Topic
 

How bad is the F650GS. I am considering one for my RTW trip. Having rode one I find it more refined than most singles and lighter than the twins. Kind of middle ground.
What sells this bike to me is its economy. Find it hard to justify a trip round the world on a bike with economy of 50mpg when the GS is capable of 75mpg. I want to see the world by causing as little damage as possible. On the other hand I dont want a bike giving me hell which is why I am tempted by Honda.

From my research preperation for the GS involves...
replacing of head and wheel bearings with quality items
changing oil return hose to allow easy water pump access
stronger sub frame and side stand bolts
quality hose clips
good radiator protection (especially where it meets the frame)
high quality MX fork seals

Annoying maintenance issues...
fuel regulator / filter
valves require a lot of parts to be removed for access (a good thing as it means you check the bike more thoroughly)
head bearings require a special tool
have to drain an oil tank (can be done without removing as stated in manual)

Problems I am aware of and can plan for...
Ignition trigger fails and takes weeks to source (carry spare)
Fuel pump failures (buy assembly from a breakers, take only the pump)
Water pump (carry spare, replace every 20k)
Shims (check sizes before departure, carry spares)

I have read forums and there do seem to be 'electrical issues', most of which seem to be caused by loose connections to the battery. A GS911 will help with fault diagnosis.

I have read many trip reports and people seem to expect their BMW to perform perfectly. Are the problems related to naive BMW owners. There seems to be a definitive split, those who entrust BMW dealers with maintenance and the people who perform their own. I have never heard of an Engine failure, 100,000 miles seems possible.

I would prefer an Africa Twin to a F650GS. Being environmentlly conscious is important to me (also good for the soul), so.....

How Bad is a Well Maintained F650GS.

Unlike (most?) other singles the engine will do 100.000 miles without problems.

That last question is impossible to answer, as you never know how well a bike is maintained by listening to their owners.

I would agree with some of your mods. Being the radiator guard for which chicken wire (the stuff with the fine holes) works well so far, and the foam between the frame and the radiator is tested and works well.
The clips are easily done and I did that one because I didn’t like the look of the OEM ones. But really, when would you have to take them off.
There are a few options on the chain gang forum on the oil return line. Depending on how much money you want to throw at it, it can be taken care of.
I agree on the subframe bolts, but haven’t seen any issues with the side stand bolt. But in saying that, I never felt that I could sit on the bike while on the side stand, so this could be something I should have a look at. Thanks for the tip.
I also agree on it being not such a bad idea to take a lot of stuff off to do the valve check. Because it’s a good excuse to change oil properly, clean the filter and check the battery fluid level (if you have one of those batteries). It’s still is a bit of a pain though.
The waterpump issue sucks but is well know.
As for the electrical issue I agree with the loosening of the battery bolt and also the side stand switch, but other bikes also have this as I experienced myself. The voltage regulater has also failed on some F’s.

The others I’m not sure about. The steering head bearing thing is hard to judge for me as most people (I reckon) don’t grease them up when they get the bike. Same for the swing arm bearings. This is something that got pointed out to me when I did a maintenance course. I added heaps of grease on my brand new one, and they were not very greasy at all when I looked at them. I’ll bring some spares, but will be interested to find out the mileage of the OEM ones. As for the tool for this. I didn’t use one greasing the bearing, and while scanning the FAQ on the chain gang on this topic didn’t see a mention of it. Do you mean the socket with the 2 prongs on it?
Similar for the fuel regulator that has the filter integrated. I added a separate fuel filter just before it and will be interested to see if that will keep all the crut out of the regulator. Can only find out.
Also for the seals. I’ve put some sealsavers on them and am interested to see how long the seals will last. I’m still taking some though. Honda do them as well apparently.
Don’t think you can call the shim thing a problem. Just comes with the valve design. Most people from what I read don’t have to change them often.

I quite liked doing a ‘few’ mods (which I would have done on any bike I would have bought for an overland trip) as it’s a good opportunity to get familiar with the bike. Something I didn’t do on the last trip which turned out to be unnecessarily ‘interesting’. I might have done things reducing the longevity of the bike. But that’s someone else’s problem now.

Other mod I have done are:
Removing the possum scraper, oil drain valve, bar risers, centre stand (thrown in by dealer), bash plate extension guard, centre stand bash plate, engine guard, fairing guard, NB’s crap flap, luggage racks (only fitted the rear one so far), battery upgrade, Fastway foot pegs, Stebel horn, spotties, volt meter, mirror upgrade (FAR hinged ones), stainless steel oil filter, foam air filter, headlight protector, front sprocket cover, fork spring and emulator, an 8 circuit accessories wiring loom, tool tube in front of the bash plate, Philips xtreme headlight (keeping the stock ones as spares. Need spares anyway, might as well get some better ones and fit them).

Mods still on the list are: flexible indicators, shocks, flexible oil return hose, maybe handlebars but probably can’t be bothered.
I would have done the big stuff in any case but wouldn’t have done if I wouldn’t have bought this bike for an overland trip. But than again, I probably wouldn’t have gone this bike either.
Parts out of the ordinary that I’m taking other than some I mentioned above are a spare oil pressure sensor, valve and some engine side cover gasgets just in case. Needed them on the last trip.

Lots learned from the Japanese. BMW are probably the LAST

What opinion have I voiced on the DR exactly? I take it you've got one and think highly of it?[/QUOTE]
Cheers,

[QUOTE=mollydog;176548]
The DRZ was the most popular Baja rental bike among the five or six companies that run rides down there. These bikes lead a hard life, they've held up really well. NO ONE rents BMW's in Baja ... for any price.:rofl:QUOTE]

Off course not. Neither would I. Not all Beemer owners are indoctrinated nutters. Untill the 450 comes out they aren't in that market properly. The X gets good reviews but in that market there are other better less taller bikes for sure. But that discussion is more at home on ADVrider than here. That was the reason I made the weekend warrior vs. 25000km around a continent comment.
That 450 might just end that stigma about BM riders.

When I was up to replace the Tenere with something new I contemplated 3 bikes. The 640, the Dakar and very distantly the DR. But seeing as that one reminded me too much of the Tenere in form and design, the KTM had bad stories associated with it on my trip as well as the fact that my Mrs couldn't touch the ground and not being able to test ride it here didn't help. The Dakar was the obvious choise. But the comfort, large capacity alternator, plenty of farkles and a very well organised and active user base made it overwhelmingly clear to be the best choise bike for us for an overland trip. It has issues, but that's all part of it.

There is still room for a 250-450 range bike in our garage for single trails out the back here.

Yes the Socket with 2 prongs for the Head Bearings.

Shims could be a problem if you dont take spares. I will check mine before I leave and take a few suitable sizes.

Will add a regulator to my list.

You don't need it. Read at the bottom of here
It's only to use the correct torque but on every other bike you just use feel.

As for the valves. It's good to have a look to see what's in your bike even when you're not going on a new trip. Good check on torques and all that.

Personally I'm not going to take the voltage regulator/ rectifier as it's quite large. Instead I'll check with the dealers in the UK to see if it's a stocked item. They're not cheap either. And I don't think it a that regulare failure like the waterpump.
Dave Lambeth told me to take magneto coils. Expensive and large, but he said they have been known to fail. We put quite a bit of heat on it on both XT's and they were fine. But with the XT they're not readily available. Hence the check on the F. I'll have a few parts packaged at home ready to be send out. Haven't worked out a list for that yet though.

You are correct, the tool for the steering head bearings is probably excessive but I may take one. I worked as an engineer for a company producing 'Tightening Systems' for the automotive industry and learnt good practice of ensuring all bolts are correctly torqued. I will take a small torque wrench on my trip.
What ever spares you take you wont need, something else will fail....
Why ? because thats the nature of adventure, to test you and help you grow. A great test is bike failure and the inherent problems and solutions needed to resolve it.

Back on topic.

Where are all the F650GS riders ? We would value your opinions....

More input needed
 

Exactly!

The recent information about prepping the F650 has been good, and is relevant enough to the original question - no other bike, or rider, sets off for a long trip without dealing with the known problems.

I am as bad as anyone for going :offtopic: but there have to be some more F650 riders out there right now who can tell us how their bike is performing.

:popcorn: (crap, that doesn't work. Ah well, you're getting the message)

Meanwhile. Aren't torque wrenches really sensitive to abuse? Sitting in the pannier can't be good for it possibly giving false torques, etc. I'm still not sure about bringing one.

I had the 1999 funduro f650 ran well. Liked lower octane more than high. I got any where from 35 MPG to 70 MPG. Burned exhaust gaskets more than I liked. Getting the air box off was less than fun. Last problem I had was an electrical box under the seat. Service did such a poor job I traded the bike in. Not a bad bike but for the money there are better bikes that will do the job I need done.

But if you want to know about the F650 go to The Chain Gang

The source of all things F650. ALL THINGS. Want to know how to field strip the motor some one there will know, have done it, and have notes. Want the specks on a 1996 piston they will have it. How much torque to put on the left top water pump bolt of a 2004 GS they go it. How a GS handiles in the snow or sand or 13,000 feet. known octane problems? What brakes on the bikes? Just ask them, use there search first its been asked and answers more than one probably.

Still think BMW needs to remake the R80GS loose all the silly stuff that sells R1200GS to people on the showroom. The F800 a nice bike will be near the price of a R1200gs when the USA get them. Just a strong framed no frills bike. And own RTW/Adventure bikes.

Your right they dont like abuse. Going to do some research, It may be the case that mechanical ones suffer more from vibrations. Electric types using transducers should hold up better. Will pack it between my tent and sleeping bags.

Looks like the best way to find out how reliable the F650GS is will be to take one RTW.

If I take a.....
..Honda I will be expecting reliability, if it fails I will be sad :(
..BMW I expect it to fail frequently, I may be pleasantly surprised:D

Chain Gang and F650.co.uk dont give much detail about RTW problems. Travellers website give a better indication. One site I am following is this
The Statistics the stats are a great idea.

I guess you haven't had the pleasure of owning a well maintained BMW K75...those are pretty solid bikes especially for RTWing.

If you need a detailed and years long documentation of a an F650 on the road you MUST read the very well done and entertaining Smelly Bike accounts. A true BMW devotee.....:innocent:

Smellybiker's Wanderlust Worldmap • View forum - BMW F650GS Dakar

We´re put off by the title of the thread :thumbdown: - the presumption being they are crap in the first place and we have to change other's (closed) minds.

Seems to me, all bikes are crap for anything more than 2 weeks away from home - just that their owners' don't know it.

If the 650GS is crap then the owners has to be real heroes!
Loads of people drive them on hard trips all over the world and the strange thing is that they seem to like it. Weird people…


Sidenote:
If you check the latest e-zine you will find that the 650GS is the most common bike, airheads come as number two..

Assuming that something catastrophic doesn't happen (like you crash really hard and trash your carefully chosen pannier system two weeks into the four-year RTW) at some point after you take off, you realize you have way too much stuff - and start to appreciate what is really important. Also because you are plain tired of repacking useless crap.

I'll put down money that the steering head tools and torque wrench become ´the departed´at some point. Of course, if I put down too much money, you´ll prove me wrong.

One only needs to carry spare parts when one realizes the parts they are using are just about worn out in the first place. Why carry spares when you won't need them for another xx,000 kms? (like spare brake pads, when the ones you started with were new - or should have been). Its shortly before you get to xx that it makes sense to have them handy.

F650GS and BMW gear owner opinion!
 

Hi Ted, hope all is fine for you! Where are you?

As the very unhappy owner of a F650, 2004 model, that just had to be towed away yesterday....

As you know I´ve had my share of bike problems since my trip started with ABS, seals, electrics, speedo, master cilynder ... you name it...

Now yesterday while I spent 4 hours waiting for a tow truck to pick me up, 60km from Bariloche I had lots of time to think!
Seriously considering another bike for my next trip (London - Sydney). I am sick and tired of snobby BWM attitude and utter comtempt for their customers and also of the bad low quality gear that started desintegrating within weeks of buying them (2 santiago suits and 1 pair of boots boots... all awful!) .
Not helped by really bad attitude of BMW dealers and the incompetence of their workshop (See my blog to find more: entry "the day BWM tried to kill me" gives you an idea!)

By now I tell you I HATE BMW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And... I did not have notorious problems with my rear schock or water pump because I replaced them all before starting my trip! (Recommend White power shocks, superb!)

However, the Rotax engine is very good. No complaint there. For the rest I agree with Ted, something like a DR650 would be maybe a better choice.

I’m getting a little fatigued of the BMW bashing, model bashing, etc.

Look, not EVERY F650 is crap NOR is the DR650 the greatest bike in the world. Both bikes have been produced for long periods of time and they’ve had a variety of upgrades that make them fairly different every five years or so.

If you pick an F650 from 2002-2007, it will be different than an F650 from 1998-2002, etc. Do your research and don’t trust the sales/marketing guys…its your ass that will be on the side of the road waiting for a two truck…IF you happen to be lucky enough to have one available in the area you’re riding in.

No bike is perfect, but based on the trip(terrain, duration, etc) you’re taking…get to know your bike beforehand and be prepared to deal with minor issues along the way...part of the adventure!

Now if your final drive goes…that’s another thing! BUT I agree…the current BMW stuff and dealers are crap;)

We persevere nevertheless
 

Yes, got to agree that is how it struck me when I first read it and I was not greatly inclined to bother reading it, never mind putting finger to key.

But, I am glad that it is still active, because any casual reader would get the overall impression that the F650 does not work well, if at all, in South America but it is fine in the rest of the world - can this, in fact, be true? :rolleyes2:

I especially like the "....what is really important"
part. You cannot be proved wrong ....you are clearly correct.

Bashing? Maria is in no way bashing, she is simply reacting to her R E A L I T Y, which is well documented here.

An ebay spot check - still off topic
 

Another great review of the DR650 Mollydog which would look good on that thread, but, as a check on reality for the UK, I have just looked at UK ebay for a DR650.

There are a total of 2 available right now: the 1991 bike has 30000 miles declared while the 1992 model has an unknown mileage and number of previous owners. That's it, nothing else available among about 5800 bikes for sale (that's 0.034% of bikes offered for sale).

I've looked at the dealers' lists before (haven't bothered today) and the situation can be similar with them but with higher asking prices.

If Maria wants to bring one back from South Amer, fair enough but the new twin cyl F650GS will be in the showrooms next weekend = 71 HP on tap for an asking price of £5300.
All I am saying is that things move on.

Still off topic: I have read quite a bit of derogatory comment about BMW dealerships in other countries (in here and elsewhere), but in the UK, on average, everything else being equal, blah blah, I believe that they are considered to be better than your average back street bike shop - top dollar prices yes, but good service and attention to the customer: there may be an exception, but that is about what I hear from BMW owners here in the UK.

That's a nice Blackbird (Super CBR1100XX?) - now that is a bike and a half! :rolleyes2:

Luck?
 

Planning a long trip, plan for the worst. Ride a BMW where spares are available. Don't ride a BMW where a breakdown entails struggling with Airport Customs. My Honda 125 has taken me from Mexico to Mexico via Tierra del Fuego. The clock will pass the 40,000 Ks mark short of the US border. No mechanical problems, a few falls and a broken leg through being run down from behind by a big truck. I was riding on ice so the accident was my fault for being an idiot. What would I change? The seat! I hanker after one of those big leather seats with a back support. Power? Yes, a little more. I am due to cross China next year and am considering a 200 trail bike (probably Honda again), with the ratio changed for cruising and a comfortable seat. What ever, have fun...
:oops2:home

This is new to me; I didn’t know that a lot of BMW parts (except Xchallenge) were made in China. What parts are you talking about?

MollyDog,
Don't selectively take my quotes out of context...reread the point I was making in this post and EVERY post I've made on this thread: BMW's made since 2002 have faced questions of durability IRRELEVANT of model(F650, 1150/1200 GS), etc. Going to Chinese manufactured parts may actually help in an odd way...

IF the Chinese get clear cut instructions on design, quality expectations, and a defined manufacturing process...they can produce very high quality stuff...look at the IBM Thinkpad for example...IBM controlled every aspect of the process for years and produced some the most durable laptops out there.

Relative to the DR, reread my post again...every 5 years a "variety" of things have changed on the DR...and in total during that time period they can be considered significant, depending on the purchaser of that vehicle.
How often have these DR's consistently seen 50k-100k miles...and still going strong? I'm curious...

Its unfortuntate what's happening to Maria and I've kept up with her trip, BUT her bike is post 2002 and she's choosing BMW dealers part of the time. As I've said in prior posts as have many many others, having a pleasant experience with one nowadays is an exceptional experience. Luckily, I've got a couple good local ones...I see on rare occasion...which is why I ride an old K75:)

I'm not at all surprised to see some BMW bashing - I think they're the company that has labeled itself as THE great adventure motorcycling company and perhaps the bikes don't really live up to it for various reasons these days.

My experience has been limited to a 40000 mile Americas tour on an Africa Twin. Not the whole picture by any means but I regularly noticed that in the various bike shops I visited to get my AT serviced I the other travelers with BMWs were having repairs carried out.

On the whole there was a feeling of disgruntlement among these riders at the service provided by local BMW dealerships - some bikes had warranty cover too. The output shaft seal seems like an inexpensive item that a dealer should stock and yet I recall three occasions where riders were left high and dry waiting for parts to be shipped from Europe.

More recently I look at the bikes Ewan and Charlie (and Claudio) have used. Hardly inspirational reliability and something that the BMW marketing guys would be cringing about. That said I would have been interested to have seen how they would have got on with the KTMs.

I want a motorcycle that I can ride for 50000 miles anywhere I want without doing anything other than routine service work. I'm not sure BMW can do that anymore. It's interesting looking through the Bike tech forums to see which bikes are best suited to this adventure motorcycling lark...... they're not German.

Hi Simon,
Congrats again on a fantastic ride!
Fpr China take a look at this:
Silk Road - which bike? - ADVrider

Go to post #4

Good travels
Patrick:mchappy:

Somehow I feel its true.

You should be in politics Edde:thumbup1:

Ok guys...

My thread title wasnt thought out as well as it should of been and my objective was to start this thread as a place that BMW F650 owners could tell me about their experiences...

Sadly, y opinion of the 650´s is only getting worse.

Im at Dakar Motos waiting for pollos birthday party and some spares and many a F650 owner is turning up and passing thorugh etc...

Nearly everyone of them is cursing the bike. All with failing ABS, leaking seals, water pumps knackered and the headlamp subframe breaking through fatigue. Bits and pieces breaking and falling off..

Now of course, all bikes suffer and have their faults but not to this extent...

I am prepared to take the flak for saýing this the F650 is NOT a good bike. I wouldnt touch one with a shi*ty stick.

Thier only saving grace seems to be comfort and good fuel consumpion (which is easily rivalled by a Vstrom or Transalp)

Well, I’m still pretty sure that the F650 has practically no parts from China. So I feel that the statement is false.
The X-serie will be (or is) produced in China and the G450 in Taiwan but that doesn’t matter for the quality of the old 650.
I agree that the parts from China can be as good (or bad) as parts from Europe – it’s BMWs quality-control (or lack of) which decides this.
It should be interesting to see how the new F650 and F800 will do. I’m afraid that they will not be as good as the old airheads, time will show.



I think we are getting closer to the real issue here. Yes, BMW is more expensive then the Suzuki but it also lasts a lot longer.
When a BMW has 100kkm on the clock you can still sell it for 30-60% of what you gave for it without doing a major overhaul first. That makes owning a BMW cheaper then most other bikes.
A friend of mine will start to rebuild a 650 with 140kkm on the clock. He will not rebuild the engine because cylinders and rings are still within tolerances and the cylinder head looks good. He will rebuild it because he wants a custom built bike with great suspension and a 1000km petrol range.

For me it’s out of the question to buy a bike with an estimated lifespan less then 150kkm. My current bike has 193kkm on the clock (but it was rebuilt at 180kkm).

A fair summary
 

I think Patrick has summarised the difference between the BMW and Suzuki 650 bikes very acccurately and IMHO his views of the respective customers [and the way they treat their bikes] is spot on as well .

BMW charges a premium for their bikes based on their "perceived quality" , sadly this seems to be lacking these days .
Suzuki markets their bikes on the basis of "value for money" , they seem to do rather well .

Suzuki has extended warrantys that will match BMW .

It has been suggested that there are more BMW s enroute at the moment than Suzukis , which may well be true , but it's very hard to be accurate and I would suggest that ,if it is true,it's because BMWs are more readily available on the European market .

Resale values will only be significant for lightly used bikes , any bike that has gone RTW will be shagged out and worth very little .
If you are borrowing money to buy your bike and trading it in every couple of years then resale will be important to you .

All bikes have faults and a sympathetic, knowledgeable rider will be able to work around them. I think what has let BMW down ,in this respect , is that less skilled and knowledgeable riders have bought expensive BMWs expecting them to perform flawlessly .
This can cause riders to be overcritical .

Old buggers like me , who prefer older simpler bikes , would hardly give a second thought to fixing some of the "problems" that seem to cause some people so much anguish .

The thread has gone full circle and disappeared in its own crap
 

Ted,
As quastdog mentioned, why should they bother with such preconceptions?

I did have some hopes that this thread could bring some objective feedback on the topic, but I have now given up on that aspiration. As a contrast, there is a KTM thread that is streets ahead of this one in meeting this aim, for the 640 Adv:-
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...lems-list-9345
It contains information from those who own, or have owned, these bikes, unlike the majority of posts on this thread.

Regrettably, I think that this "crap" thread has missed the chance - it needs to lie fallow (die in the ditch basically) and, in due course, some more structured, objective feedback may be available:-
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...-threads-33390
IMO, this development will be quite important for the HU webpages: hopefully it will succeed.

For specific information about the F650 you could do worse than go to the chain gang (as referenced in an earlier post) or the UK equivalent:-
BMW F650 (UK)
Both of these have contributions from actual owners (or they are all bluffing!).

Lastly, while all the BMW F650GSs in South America are breaking down and providing grief for their owners, in the rest of the world they are doing just fine:-
Adventure.gs - The very best experience in motorcycling training and touring.
Just one more example of a real owner with specific feedback on his bike.

I hope those links help your mate to make up his mind.

It's human nature to complain, less so to praise.

I've had nothing but exemplary service from the five BMW dealers I've put my bikes into.

During the 80,000km and two years of ownership of myfrst R1200GS I had a couple of warranty issues but I have to admit they were really down to my ill-treatment of the bike.

The current R1200GSA has 48,000km on the clock. I've just returned from a 12,700 km return trip to Senegal. Absolutely no problems, I didn't even have to top up the oil.

Tim

Jeez this thread just exploded since I last checked it.....
 

I completely agree.

It's very tiring to have this comparison and people getting all fired up like they're talking about which football team is better. Brand loyalty really scares me sometimes.
Like I said on the first round on the circle of this thread, not all of these claims are clear as to what the basis of the information is.
'ABS, leaking seals, water pumps knackered and the headlamp sub frame breaking through fatigue' All but the headlamp sub frame (hate to think what happened to that bike as I've never heard of that one but a little welding easily takes care of that one) are well known, and if you have a little knowledge of maintaining your own bike shouldn't need professional help. If you get caught without the spares for those issues, you deserve to wait forever for them.

I'm not sure what type of traveler are found in SA (there are many kinds), but I'm starting to think a lot of people who think a bit to lightly about a trip like this and expect a stock BMW can do the job. Awesome marketing from BMW, but if a customer believes everything they get (s)told we're in trouble.

From my experience, no stock bike can do this, and all need preventative measures to known issues. Hence, can we stop mentioning things like water pump, fork seals and ABS (who needs it anyway) as it's kind of like saying:'Oh my god, my chain is all worn' and don't add to this thread (Walkabout, I have some hope still we can fix this thread). When they get mentioned I'm thinking the owner might not really know what they are doing. And when mentioning electrical issues, can we get a bit more specific? Side stand switch, voltage regulator (not sure why I keep motioning this one as I rarely hear of a failing one), etc. So again we can sift through the known issues and get a better idea. And even then, maybe a little background of what might have caused it. Lots of crashes, un-ordinary vibrations, exposure to salty water, drowned, etc. Reason why I say this is that we had issues with our ignition and switch gear on the Tenere after rainy days, so now we cover them up each night with the poncho. Problem solved. Maybe a few questions you could ask those guys at Dakar Motos Ted. I think I might be repeating myself here.

I haven't taken this bike out for a big trip yet, but also as mentioned am doing a ''lot'' of work on it to prevent known failures, protect things and speed up maintenance. This work makes me very confident that short of what's inside the Rotax I know this bike inside out. That way I'm not at all fussed of a fracture in the headlight frame, fork seals and ABS.

10 or so bolts plus the body parts and you're at the headlight frame. That probably is quite a bit more than a DR, XT, XL, XR, KLR (not the new one) but not than a Tenere fairing which was a royal pain. How do I know? I actually took it through 13 time zones. The amount of times I didn't have to take that tank off. And off course it's always full.
I'm not saying this to jerk myself off, but just because who needs this stressed thread if there is no un-circumstantial evidence.
I like to think this forum was set up to provide constructive information about overland travel with you own transport, mainly a motorbike. Something the KTM thread provides.

Oh, and while we are talking about this, could we all please be more specific in the Description of your current trip, or a major trip section our profiles? Or is this not public viewable? It can’t take to long to write maybe to and from or the distance traveled maybe. It really helps to assess the persons background and put a bit of context on the reply, dig, comment, opinion, etc.

Ah, but Simon, you gloss over the inadequacies of your bike choice as well. You mentioned previously about how you stuck to paved roads - whereas some of us seek out the dirt. You mentioned how you crossed one pass at 4000+ meters where the bike labored under its lack of power - whereas some of us have spent days, if not weeks, riding at 4000+ meters, reaching 5000+ meters multiple times. You asked the HUBB readers to help you achieve greater warmth when you wanted to retrieve you bike from Ushuaia, when most of us would have just plugged our heated jackets into the electrics - but alas, you couldn't plug anything into the "electrics" on your little bike. Not that a bigger bike would have prevented you from getting run down on Paso Garibaldi in winter, but a bigger bike allows one to accelerate out of trouble, whereas your little bike probably placed you in more danger than even you were aware of (just the nature of your riding on a small bike).

So you compromised your ride, in favor of smaller-cheaper-standard 3rd world issue. You don't know what you missed by not being able to essentially venture into the 'road less traveled'.

Not that you are in the wrong here - just, there are tradeoffs you made, which some of us aren't willing to accept.

I ride with a few BMW dealer mechanics and one head service writer. You guys (and gals) simply would not believe the things their customers come up with to complain about .... and demand be fixed under "warranty'.

So if a thread about "your" bike points out its faults you take your "toys" and go home? :rolleyes2: hmmmmmmm?

I've seen plenty of objective feedback. How much documentation do you need? How specific do you want to get before you take someone's account as credible? This thread, seems to me, is not the definitive, objective tome about the F650. It's merely a casual observation of what a couple travelers' have observed. Like most threads, others chimed in. Are they not free to do so?

Ted is credible, so is Maria.

Perhaps a NEW thread is called for? Something like:
The Unbreakable F650 From Alaska To Usuhia
Be sure to include The Smelly Biker account! It's priceless!

I disagree. Many of the posters here own a F650 or have owned BMW's and some have given a thumbs up on the bike.

As for me, I have ridden and reviewed many BMW's including the F650.
The point is the majority of BMW owners I've met know next to nothing about their bikes, its history or model evolution. Most let dealers do servicing. RTW folks are a bit different. (but not for long)


Patrick :wheelchair:
Not On The Road

I've been riding and skipped over a few or more posts before making this one.

If you go on long trips, especially ones involving a lot of off road riding, there are few smarter choices in bikes to make other than those you can fix yourself, or those that can be fixed by a basic mechanic shop. It's actually very simple.

Expectations are our own, as are most of the problems we incur.
Self sufficiency is a choice, and even made blindly, it's still ours.

Did your Pod skip a note, the paleteria hasn't your favorite sprinkles?

It's only the foolish who do not deal well with the inconveniences.

bmw 650 Dakar
 

Hi everyone
Have just returned to Spain after 7,000 miles to Gambia and back.Was worried that I would have problems with leaded fuel ( no unleaded after Dakhla in the Western Sahara ).
No problems so far.
Does anyone know if it will be a problem in the future vis a vis the catalytic converter ?would appreciate any feedback.
The bike is 17 months old &,has just done 22,000 miles,no problems so far

Cheers Paul

take the cat off...
 

continued use of leaded fuel will render your cat useless after a while - the bike will still run but the emissions won't be getting catalysed properly. Ditch the cat and then you can put it back on if required for MOTs etc.

Given that your bike has been running on unleaded the only way to see if the cat is still OK would be to get the emmisions checked.

Thanks mate
I think the cat is in the false can so,do,nt know how to ditch it.
Will leave it for now & keep my fingers crossed.
Do you know what the procedure is for replacing it?

Cheers Paul

I wouldn't worry about it if it will still run but not as clean. The only advantage I can see is the extra room for another tool/ parts compartment where the exhaust used to be.

I'll be using mine and get it replace after my trip. Can't affort a Staintune at this moment, and it's not a priority. Rear shock is.

Have a look over at the FAQ's for aftermarket exhausts. Plenty of possibilities.