xt600e no start, coil question.
 

Don't seem to have any spark at the moment. my plug reads about 5k on the multimeter but i am having difficulty getting a reading from the coil. I have a secondary reading of 24k and can't get anything on my primary. Never tested a coil before and wondering if i have done it wrong. please help, mechanics around here not keen to touch it. Does this sound like a broken coil? thank you. Ben in Kent UK


here is it cranking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF4CuAXzvD8

does this seem a fast enough turnover speed?

today i put a Tour Max coil in, and the spark seemed about the same as before. i then cleaned contacts from the generator and sprayed some easy start into the intake and the engine ran for a second or so. so maybe it is a fuel issue after all. my bowl drain screw is stuck so can't check if there is fuel in the carb at the moment.

Seems like it's time to pull the carb! :(

You DO seem to have spark, since it ran, but you're not seeing a spark when you test the plug? Something fishy, it should be a solid big fat spark. Have you tried a new plug, and make sure it's well grounded when testing?

I don't know XT's that well but I have a number of bikes where they won't start once the fuel in the carb goes 'stale' - something I've had happen in under a week. If it fires even slightly with Easy Start that's where I'd begin - work out how to undo the float bowl drain screw, drain some fresh fuel through it, and try again.

Not much of a spark when testing it, will get a new one tomorrow and make sure it's grounded well. thanks

thanks will have a go with the screw tomorrow.

Try a new coil. Even a cheap £10 chinese coil off ebay will do for testing.

The easiest way to determine if you have fueling issues is to get a can of powerstart and spray that into your airbox when cranking (without filter).

i have a new coil and the spark is the same as the old one. went to take the filter out the air box to spray easy start directly into it and found a load of oil in the bottom of the box. wasn't there yesterday. maybe came from the cranking i did.


https://ibb.co/nPCKXzQ

https://ibb.co/nPCKXzQ

cranking with easy start
 

this morning's effort

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU81ldXLauw

fires for a bit here and there.

with the new plug either get one spark every now and then or a couple of very small sparks and then nothing.



hard to see smaller sparks but there's a couple at the start and three at the second attempt

https://youtu.be/1lcfpB5atqg

you need to add what bike you have, some 600 are CDI igntion, some are TCI (google to know the difference)


if its CDI, a known problem source is the "power coil", it can give iffy spark symptom like you are describing



so determine what ignition you have, then download the relevant workshop manual and follow the testing procedure to a T.


Personally im against "throwing parts at" to solve issues without first knowing where the issue is. easy to bark at the wrong tree. on top, TCI and CDI coils are different, do you know which one you need?

Me too
 

Watching this with interest.
Not because I have the answer, but because I have a similar problem.
Engine will fire but only runs for 20 -30 seconds.
All the electrics test good. Including ignition box of tricks, passed as good by Mezo last year, so its very sad to hear of his death.
So I too am seeking the cause of fueling problems. Having determined to renew the search for my 1990 XT600E's problems, I have a fresh can of "Easy Start" on its way, and will report any success if I can.
We must hang on to the belief that "posessed" though the ruddy machine seems to be, there has to be a logical reason.

Me too
 

Having just seen Turboguzzi's reply, mine has the TCI system.

Maybe an exorcism is a good idea.

Thanks

I have a 2003 4PT so should have a CDI. I went looking for it yesterday and could not find it. Will run the ignition system checks tomorrow, will check the spark plug cap as it is still the original.

spark plug cap giving a reading of 11.5k, 1.5k over spec, not sure if that is a big deal.

It's old, just change it. The spec doesn't tell the whole story.

ok, so you have TCI, rare that they give trouble.


a few ideas to test:


check the ohms in the ign pickup (two wire connector coming form alternator cover, should be in the few hundred ohms range 500-700



TCI needs good voltage, try hooking bike with jumpers to a a big car battery


your coil is a 12v, disconnect the wires from harness, connect one spade to ground and flick over the other little spade connector with +12V from batt, should spark if ok


test and report

Thanks all, will have a go tomorrow.

pick up coil test
 

here is the result from the two pin connector

https://ibb.co/Rv9kDZc

i tested the connections of the 3 pin connector too, and they were all close to each other in value, here it is.

https://ibb.co/ZV4czbv

not able to get a car battery at the moment to test

Go with what Grant said and change it - NGK is my cap of choice. My rule of thumb with plug caps is any more than 5k is suspect. My old 70's Honda 400 won't start with 10k resistance in the line.

not sure how many ohms is that 0.22.... read my post, should be around 500-700, IF 0.22 means 220 ohms then something is wrong with the pickup.



the three pin is for charging, irrelevant to ignition.

Stop fooling this guy, all values are in spec, read manual before bad advices! My guess is fuel issue, hard to read the spark problem with so weak crank, fully charge battery and give it more time around on video, if no spark check leads and connections up to TCI, try another box. Remove carb, clean it and check fuel is leaving ok.

Surely dont know what you talking about, when he states its almost in spec you still say its no good over 5k?

Testing your spark like you are is not great. Leaning it against a dirty corroded engine is a crap earth for a plug.

Use a Jump lead from the spark to the neg battery or clean the cylinder with sandpaper and a file before testing it like you did. I couldn't see a spark from that video.

When you cranked over the motor with the powerstart, was the throttle open ?? It needs to be. It didn't sound like it was trying to start to me. Those coughs are probably from it igniting the powerstart just from the compression of the motor.

Test the spark again. Properly. With a clean earth point.
Replace your plug cap and HT lead (Or at least cut 10mm off each end of the HT lead and rescew)
Check your spark plug (That the electrode isn't shorting with the plug body) or replace it

Diagnose one system at a time or you will just get confused and frustrated.

Don't jump steps of diagnosis.

That's been my experience over many bikes and cars. New NGK caps are 5k resistance. Anything much over 10k (so a 5k cap and a 5k resistor plug together for example) is not helpful for cold starting.

My bike is yr 2000, and i experienced similar a yr or two ago. In my case i eventually traced the problem to a nearly broken wire at the CDi plug.

hello again

just stopped raining so could have another go

cleaned connections of the CDI, here's the before and after

https://ibb.co/XttfdW8

https://ibb.co/G7QGVhD

ran a jump lead to the negative on the battery, cleaned the battery connections.

and tried again with new cap new plug and that new ignition coil. here's the vid...


https://youtu.be/8OiHdT2JAKA

that's the battery at fully charged. it is 4 months old but was a cheap one

You definitely have NO SPARK. Or not a spark which is worth calling a spark.

Can you beg, borrow or steal another CDI ? Have you checked continuity, or better, voltage drop, from the CDI to the coil ?

I don't have an XT600 wiring diagram in front of me to look at but my guess is the capacitor in the CDI (Capacitor discharge ignition) is toast.

I think that's why you get the small spark then nothing. The CDI is not building up enough current.

If you're keeping the bike and it's an original CDI then you should change it anyway. Or at least carry a spare. So a CDI purchase won't be a bad idea.

You could also look a the ignition pickup. Or often called a pulse generator. It's what tells the CDI 'When' to discharge into the coil to create the spark.

Have you tested the AC output from the stator too. I'm testing my memory here but I think one of the phases charges the CDI.

Basically. You need to test your entire charging system. But swapping the CDI for a known good one is an easy first thing to check.

Ted

Measure the ignition coil voltage when cranking, seems like you have spark in the beginning and end. Measure wires to TCI unit, open TCI and check soldering points. Ignition coil have wire from TCI and engine stop switch.

thank you

thank you. will give this a go before it gets dark.

I run the 3TB TCI on the first generation 4PT engine, from 90 its a TCI not CDI, but searching internet all named CDI.


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353810676...AAAOSwxNpht6fv

Thank you. I ran a continuity test on the connections on the TCI/CDI to the ignition coil and it seems to be .2 when it set to 200 ohms. I have the last model 4PT, looks about the same connection/box and same 5 digit number.

The box original to the engine i have is green label 4PT-82305-01 So if you have same box you know the red label 3tb works, but i run it with 3tb wiring, 4PT box works aswell on the 3TB wiring. Thinking you have bad connection somewhere.

To measure is to know
 

To measure is to know.
Guessing does not help.

Get a workshop manual.
(At least this part)
And use your multi meter.

And be systematic.
Measure coil by coil. CDI box if possible.

The CDI system does not use battery.
It uses a two specific coils on the generator.
My money is on that the problem is there.
A simple resistance measurement will give the answer.

=

The very old Kawasaki H2 had a CDI system.
With two coils. High speed and low speed.

=

There is one test than can be done, besides measurements.
Try to push start the bike. At as a high speed as possible.
Than the high speed coil starts to work.
And the engine will be running as long as you keep it at high rpm.
But stop when you let it down to idle.

That would be the proof that the low speed coil is bad.

=
Let us know the result. So we can improve our knowledge.
=
You wrote that you had measured on the three pin connector. And all gave same value.
Strange.
Measure on the side towards the engine.
Between to pins at the time
The three reading will show values for
a) One coil
b) The other coil
c) The two coils in series

Look up the values in a works shop manual.
On another bike that I was working on the values were
5 Ohm
200 Ohm
For the two coils

Measure each of the three pins toward earth.
I shall be open circuit. Else there is a short circuit.

=
The picture

Green: Coils to feed the CDI system with current
Yellow: Coil to trigger the ignation
Red: Charging the battery

Blue 1 and 2: The high and low speed coils.

Pick up coil have to pin wire and value 184-276ohm

Stator coil resistance white-white 1-2.1-3 leads one is the top one 0,52-0,78ohm

Measure your clutch switch, neautral relay and sidestand switch to make sure all is working curcuit.Need any more values let me know.

new readings
 

thank you both

i am unable to push start it.

i have a workshop manual, although it's for a 1990 xt the layout of the clutch and neutral relays seems different and i can't find them.:helpsmilie:

side stand switch functions correctly with continuity.


The pick up coil blue and yellow to green and white is .229 with meter set to 2000.

And then with meter set to 200

i have again tested the three pin connection. top and left 0.7
top and right 0.7
left and right 0.7


will check for the earth tomorrow from the three pin.

i can't see your useful diagram at the moment.

You have 229ohm its correct. Thats because the 3tb dont have same stupid security with clutch handle in for starting bike, on yours its conncected to the neutral switch relay if i remember correct. You dont have same relay, they change it to diode.

CDI coils
 

None of these is what I wrote about.

Stator => charging system
Pick up => triggers CDI

I talk about low/high speed coils.

Any values for them ?

3 pin connector
 

Measure on the side towards the engine

White/Red to Dark Green
White/Green to Dark Green

Using Kawasaki values:
On should be 200 ohm
The other 5 ohm

And both shall have no connection at all to earth

=
An earlier post stated that the 3-pin connector has nothing to do with ignition.
That is not correct.
=
https://i0.wp.com/members.iinet.net....W%20Wiring.jpg


I attach a complete wiring diagram



Red == Charging
Yellow == Pick/up triggering
Green == Current to CDI

Already given them, its low and high speed from the 2 wires directly to TCI. You are on the wrong engine, you have CDI old engine, we are on the new model from 1996.

I do not understand
 

Sorry,
but I am confused,

What are the correct resistance for

a) Low speed coil
b) High speed coil
???

I found it.
=>

Pulser coil resistance

green - white/red 90-130 ohm

green - white/green 90-130 ohm

white/red - white/green 180-260 ohm

Below is a picture valid for 2003 model

Nr 19 is the part I am talking about.
With 3 wires W/R, W/G and G

white wires
 

thanks for diagram

unless i am really missing something, here are the connections coming out my alternator that i tested yesterday. they are all white on the three connector. they don't seem to be going to earth, which is something positive :clap:


https://ibb.co/GW60FfW


https://ibb.co/G2nfK81






https://ibb.co/G2nfK81


i am thinking it might be time to buy that 3TP TCI box, at least it would rule it out

Well its the pickup cable hes talking about, two wires! I understand you get confused about all this writing and digram for other bikes. What i find a little strange is your bike is so clean on pict, and the TCI box was really dirty, have bike been under water? Thinking short in the box? Even connections was full of dirt. Buy the TCI box and test, if its not correct you can resell or have as spare, at that price its cheap to have in safety for testing.

two wires
 

Oh right.

is it up at the TCI box? in that diagram from Erik_g, the connection is by the 'boitier CDI'. i have a red/black and orange wired 2pin connection going into the box and a white/blue, green/white and blue/black 3 pin connection going in. are these what Erik_g means?

https://ibb.co/LJs3H7L

thanks for all the attention.

no never been in the water as far as I know.

Its the plug you measured first time in the thread, coming from engine, 2pin plug is from pickup.

Why not check on your local sale internet sites for this bike and ask seller if you can test your TCI, cant harm anything other doing this. Must be someone near with XT, stop them and ask, we bikers help everyone!

Coils
 

NO I am not talking about pickup cables.
They are two,
But from the power coils there are three.

Trouble shooting
 

Trouble shooting shooting shall be done systematic.
And by elimination,.
Not by guessing + trail an errror

You have
1) Power coils
2) Pick up Coils
3) CDI/TCI box
4) Ignition coil (incl high voltage cable)


Number 1,2 and 4 is easy to measure and test.
One by one.
And if all of them are working perfect.
Maybe you can find instructions for testing the box.
If not => Replace the box.

=
But I will not spend any more time on this.
I hope you get things sorted
=

One time I was testing all parts. And they worked one by one. But not together.
=> I was confused for some time.
But is was oxide in the 3-pin connector. That resulted in not good enough contact.
So the final step was to clean the 3-pin connector to get the system working

Thanks Erik.

I can't find anything that is out of spec with 1,2 and 4 and have ordered the tci box. I have cleaned all the oxidation off the connectors, but will check again the 3 pin for cleanliness.

Much appreciate your efforts and everyone else who has made suggestions. I will post the result of the new box, for the interest of others in this situation.

Ben

Well you talked about the 3wires and confuse him because you are looking at wrong diagram for this engine, the 3wires comes from stator and goes into rectifier. And not colours like you statet, they are all white.

Strange noone can give you a hand with testing box on another bike, XT is not a rare bike in UK?its like 12 years you have for options. FB maybe better to reach out for help than this forum that is almost dead! Maybe bike will run better, i think it was the TCI that removed HP from 3TB to 4PT, emission standards?

i have not seen a recent xt600 while living in Kent but you are probably right. Not so many old bikes on the road around here now. Got hacked on FB and pleased to be off Meta now, so can't use it to reach out to other users. will be good to get a bit more kick out of it if so.

Is this fixed yet ?

Did you get it running?
 

Yes, lotta of us wondering if your sorted the problem?

Hi all

Sorry didn't write earlier, didn't want to be a drag as only have negative info.

CDI/TCI came but didn't make any difference. Same lazy spark pattern.

It got me thinking to the last issue bike had when it stopped working at the end of Octiber. The starter relay did that thing where it stopped on and wouldn't switch off without battery disconnection. It did this when it was in a garage getting an MOT so may well have been doing it for a while and damaged the brushes before the mechanic noticed it. He replaced the relay for a better one and I ran it for about a week during which it got harder to start and finally wouldn't.

I got the battery checked at a workshop and it has enough amps.

So I am now thinking the starter motor is damaged and only able to turn weakly and not generate enough sparks. I had a damaged floor polisher which still span but wouldn't polish floors, as it was too slow and weak, which is kind of the same thing!

I have connected my battery to the post on the starter to rule out a bad wire from the starter and still same slow crank.

Yesterday I got a universal joint socket adapter so I can try and get the starter out without getting the exhaust off. I dont want to risk getting the exhaust studs out.

Will let you know next couple of days.

Hope this makes sense.

Ben

well you didnt do the check on the coil manually, if you get fat spark when on/off on batt you know problem. Anyway good to have an extra TCI for later..Btw there is no easy way out on the starter motor remove, oilpipe line must out too and exhaust, motor is propably stuck too. Take your time and do this correct and remove carb for a clean when you are doing this. Order new seals gasket oilpipe and gasket starter motor. The 3tb starter runs much faster than the 4pt, sounds almost wrong but seems ok on the ones i have tried.

Ignition could check
 

Connect coil straight to battery? Can do that tomorrow and should get fat spark.

Disconnect wires and give it ground and do fast tap on the +. We are now back at the starter cut off relay and maybe cable problem, the r/w wire comes that way thru the engine stop switch. Beep out the cable from ign coil and all way to starting relay, maybe bad wire or connection will solve it. You had testet and measure different coils so we can rule out this, like i told you earlier measure what happens to the power on the coil when cranking, measuring is the solution to find problem here. Get a car battery for real testing, maybe your battery is toasted and amp goes down when crank.

This is important info you should have divulged at the beginning doh:innocent::rofl:

I've had bikes with dodgy starter motors that draw SOOO many amps (shorting out) that the bike literally doesn't have anything left for the ignition system.

If you use car battery you will know the difference, if you are a rooky with measuring current and faulty problems i suggest buying som meters with 0,75 cable. Run new wires if you not sure anything is working, like to the coil, disconnect wires and replace with new, run in directly to starting point, TCI and starter relay, you now have ruled out problems with other switches and relay on the way. Youhave manual and routing of cables use it, its not 100% same as 4pt but end station is similar.

Also.. Replace continuity tests with voltage drop tests.

Checking for continuity (no break in cable) doesn't tell bugger all about how many amps that cable is carrying or if it's losing amps due to shorting or degradation.

The circuit must be live to volt drop test it. This will be an excellent test to do on your starter motor to see if it's shorting out or got too much resistance.

It's REALLY easy to do. Youtube it.

Thanks found a good video.will have a go

drop volt test
 

nice sunny day so got out there

battery voltage 12.6v

B wire test 12.6 then 0.2 volts when cranked---so that looks good

(Batt positive terminal to B wire post on starter)

Ground test 0.01 test and 0.01 volts when cranked---so that looks good

(Batt negative terminal to nut on starter)

S (switch connection on relay red wire) - couldn't get a voltage here from positive battery terminal to S connection on relay. could however get a 12.6 volt reading if i took reading between negative battery terminal and S and a reading of 10.7 when cranked.

So something is not right.

here is video i followed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMXENKujYtc


here is a quick test from battery negative to S wire in connection to relay. Does this make sense? Ignition is off.

https://ibb.co/XxYLVg8

Starter relays are often problems.

You could simply bypass it altogether. You could 'jump start' the bike using a jumper cable direct from the battery to the starter 12+ terminal.

I'm assuming that the earth strap is connected to the frame and free of corrosion.

earth strap
 

just to be on certain, where might the earth strap be? :D

always had problems with relays for the last 5 years since buying bike.

can anyone recommend a good relay?

just tried jumping it. amid all the sparks the starter seemed a little keener.

You already ruled out problems with relay connecting direct, with a current transformer plier you measure amps starter consum, measure voltage its not what you are looking for. Ground is from battery. This correct for yours? https://www.ebay.com/itm/11477028361...0AAOSwuUBgeo0r

I dont get this, do you live alone in a cave in the mountains? Must be someone with a car nearby, use jumper cables and connect direct on starter motor to find out whats wrong. Itsa 1hour job to find problem here, must be someone who can help you, no progress from 9dec.

caveman
 

I could ask neighbours but don't fancy that one little bit, new to the town really so don't know, this is southern england so people don't bend over backwards getting to know someone new.

Not sure i'd want to risk pulling a battery out on a new car anyway, might trip out some security thing then i'd have to run around sorting that out with them breathing down my neck.

thanks for your interest and suggestions but please ignore these postings if my lack of progress is frustrating you. if i don't post, people get curious so it seems rude not to. would like to resolve this then will post how.

i have found a company 15 miles away who will collect and have a go if it comes to it but that is worse case as that could be many hundreds of pounds and a nasty sense of dread in the duration they have it.

Only thing that is frustrating is that you cant get help, you dont need to pull out battery, cable is enough and iam sure postman pat can give you power. All your answear comes if you spin startermotor correct speed with enough amp. If you want to keep struggling from the wrong end its fine by me, good luck!

lastly...
 

Switched the relay with the one listed above, thanks xtrock, and manipulated the sub-wire from relay to loom, which wasn't beeping across the red wire very well but then got a spark which was good and consistent for the first time in months.

Tried getting another 4pt-82509-00, but seems everywhere sold out, even Japan. Would like to replace this as it doesn't clip into the relay well. Can't find the right size with connector suppliers in the UK.

At that point gave up and got it picked up and within a couple of hours mechanic said it was blocked pilot jet and weak battery. So got a branded battery this time, not buying cheap again. Spins up well and starts immediately.

Now it is running good. Thanks for your assistance!

nice to know good updates at 2 months' anniversary ( :