xt550 v xt600
 

hi
is the xxt 550 the same as an early xt 600 one if so has anybody got one as i really deperate
cheers
Dave

Ummmm - what piece exactly, Dave?

Still having electrical problems, I guess?

xt550 v xt 600
 

hi,
yes i am,i guess i should have given more details. i believe the cdi unit is playing up as sometimes the bike starts and when it is it runs it runs pretty well. then it wont start at all,although i have a spark and petrol?
Dave

Intermittent issues are more likely to be a bad connection than the CDI playing up. CDIs and the like generally either don't work at all (due to burned out diodes or blown caps) or will work and then cut out after a while due to overheating.

If you're getting a spark but the bike won't start, I would strongly suspect a bad connection at the coil, probably on the HT lead or plug cap. how are you testing the spark? "plug out and held against the casing", or "cap off and spark from the HT lead itself"?

I'd check *all* connections from the coil, especially the earth connection and HT lead, a good idea would be to pull the cap from the plug and test connectivity / resistance between the plug terminal and earth whilst jiggling the lead about.

Another possible issue would be a weak spark, there's a few things that could cause this.

First off, are the ignitor coil resistances (as measured between the red and brown wires from the alternator) in spec? If this is low, you have a stator rewind in your future (probably a short in one of the coils, and your spark won't be as "hot" as it should be). Coil resistance should be of the order of 150-250 ohms or so (although your manual should have the exact figures)
While you're there, make sure there's no connectivity between either of these connections and earth, even when jiggling the wires.

Next up, are you getting a good connection from igniter coils to CDI? This one is kinda hard to test, as the wires are sealed at the CDI end and there's only one pair of connectors for the ignitor coil feed. Basically, if the wires to the CDI are fecked, you might only be getting an intermittent spark, or if the connectors are corroded to buggery you might not be getting the current you want (although the voltages might look fine). Like I said, it's a bitch to test. Check the CDI wires for obvious breaks, clean those terminals (red and brown again) as well as you can, plug and unplug a few times to get a decent connection. Do the same to all the other connections from alternator to CDI at the same time (the 3 pin plug with white-red/green/white-green), you *know* you want to.

You can test the output of the igniter coils with a multimeter set to AC volts, 2000V range or so IIRC by connecting your multimeter to the brown and red terminals *without disconnecting them* while the motor is running. Easiest way to do this is to make a pair of pigtails with "plugs", connect them to a "domino" terminal block and then gently fit the existing "plug" connections into the domino, that way you can take readings from the screws in the terminal block... If the manual gives amps rather than volts, you can connect a meter inline to see what the output is.

Resistance of the brown-red connection on the CDI should be roughly the same as that of the igniter coils. If that is out of spec per the manual, your igniter is definitely dead.

While we're on this side of the CDI, might as well check the pulser coils, generally you have 100-150 ohms or so between the center tap and each leg (so, green to white-green and green to white-red)

That's about all you can do this side easily and without an identical, known good, igniter and alternator.

Now off to the "hot" side.

There's bugger all you can do to static test the hot side of the CDI, so check the orange, black and black-white connections are good, then it's off to the coil.

Coil primary resistance (orange to black) should be under an ohm, probably 0.5 ohms or so. check your manual for the exact figure

Coil secondary resistance (HT lead connection to black) should be in the 5000-10000 ohm range. again, use your manual.

Testing the coil output is potentially lethal, I'd avoid it if possible. You're dealing with tens of kilovolts when the motor is running (usually between 10 and 30Kv or so, depending on motor regime)

Other stuff to check is all the gubbins that hangs off the black-white lead from the CDI. Kill switch, main switch, etc. With everything turned to "run" check continuity from earth to where the CDI plugs into the loom. The kill switches and the like all work by *earthing*, so there should be zero continuity here with everything set to run. Also check the black/white lead of the CDI for continuity to earth.

If you're seeing continuity in the loom, there's a short somewhere. Isolate by slowly unplugging switchgear and testing (kill switches are notorious for dying), if you have the kill and ignition switches disconnected and you still have continuity, you have a short in the loom itself (and good luck with that)

Simon

Oh, and in reply to the original question...

XT400/550 CDI is Nippon Denso 5Y3-85540-50
XT600 34L CDI is Nippon Denso 07000-1080

XT400/550 coil is Nippon Denso 5Y1-82310-50
XT600 34L coil is Nippon Denso 129700-089

It's highly probable that the 34L CDI and coil will work more or less fine with the 550, although the advance curves are different and you may have problems at higher regimes (the 34L advances to 36° at 4500RPM, 550 to 35° at 6500 RPM), but I'd check out all the connections before considering transplanting CDIs from anything other than a 400 or 550.

And a new plug probably wouldn't hurt if you haven't already.

second tuftys last bit of advice
 

i will second tuftys last bit of advice..

try a NEW PLUG... but DO IT FIRST, you would be amazed at how many times the plug has been the problem on bikes i have worked on, also a worn plug takes a much higher voltage to produce a nice fat spark:stormy: than a new one.

may i wish you a fast fault find as electrical problems are the worst type of problems, or at least they seem to bring out the worst in us, in terms of frustration, tears and banging head against shed wall!

hi,
thanks for the very informative reply(s). the plug is new. i have just been thinking of the things that i have done and when i got the bike running well all of the wires from the alternator were loose as i had taken a lot of the tape of to check for breaks in the wires. then i turned off taped them up and it would'nt start again,could be a coincidence but i will follow your checks. i have disconnected the kill switch try the ignition switch and test the oldd and new alternators. have just purchased a new coil.
thanks once again and will let you know the progress !
Dave

triumph,
I don't believe in coincidences when it comes to electrics on bikes! If you can convince yourself that the last thing you adjusted/changed/fiddled with/cocked up is the cause of your current problem then, IMO, go for that first.

Beyond that, you sure have a great post from Tufty - very detailed Tufty! :thumbup1:

Dave
no i am prob hoping on that one. electrics are never that straight forward.
yes it is a very good post.i know this problem has been going on for a while as the last owner couldn't get it going,but i will in the end i want to ride:funmeterno:
Dave

Even so, "something simple" has changed is the implication of the sudden change you have experienced; but only you really know all of the symptoms and the history of what has been going on when you have worked on the bike; it is very, very difficult to get across in writing what is going on! (been there, tried that and done it!!).

Tufty's fault finding post is definitely very valuable to you, next to a multi-meter!

Good luck

xt cdi
 

hi,
i have just checked my cdi wiring and have discovered that a blue/yellow trace wire has been used for an earth ? shouldn't that wire be for a sidestand cut out switch if it were fitted to this bike?
my next question then would be how do i eart the cdi unit, i cannot see any black wires coming out that are not already connected.
Dave:eek3:

I don't see a black/yellow on my wiring diagram, I'll pop out and have a shufty at my CDI in a bit. There's a black/white, which is the main cutoff, and most definitely shouldn't be earthed (should be connected to the loom's black/white). Don't worry about not being able to earth the unit itself, just make sure the black wire is connected to a reliable earth (i.e. check the black loom connection for good earth).

Do you have a wiring diagram showing the mysterious black/yellow wire? Could be that the '83 has additional stuff my '82 doesn't.

Simon

Checked my CDI - no black/yellow.

Brown, red, green, red/white and green/white for the genny, black, orange, black/white and 2 whites for the loom. That's it.

Simon

hi simon,
sorry its a blue and yellow
Dave

At a guess, then, you have the following connections on your CDI:

- Brown and red flyleads to alternator (spark juice)
- A 3 pin plug to alternator (green, green/white and something else, pulser coil connections)
- Orange (LT feed to coil)
- Black (earth)
- Black/white (killswitch etc)
- Blue
- Blue / yellow

This is me guessing it's an XT600 1VJ or 3AJ part, rather than the original. My XT550 part number is be 5Y1-85540-52-00 (marked 5Y1-52), but it seems there are more than one, even for the 550 (5Y1-50, 5Y1-51, 5Y1-52, 5Y2, 5Y3), so it could be that other 550 CDIs are different to mine. That's a helluva lot of different ignitors for a bike only made over a 2 year span, I think some of those part numbers might be remarkings for different markets, but who knows - I sure don't.

Back to the 600 CDIs. The way these are normally wired, far as I can tell, is that the black/white runs only to the ignition switch, and the blue and blue-yellow run to all the other switchgear (sidestand switch, killswitch, etc), but I'm not sure what polarity they are supposed to have. I'd guess that, if you haven't lifted the CDI itself, the connections are good, so leave them as they are.

I still think you have a stripped or earthing wire between CDI and alternator - after all, that's what you said you'd untaped and retaped.

I'd mail you my CDI to test with, but I'm not actually sure that's good, either :)

Simon

Simon
I had a spare alt so put it on the bike i tested the old one and i dont think it was up to speck. i know what you are saying with the wiring but i tried to fiddle around for ages all to no avail, i am still looking at the wiring but i seem to be running out of ideas.
i think the cdi as you suggested is of a later bike i have seen one for about £50 do you think i should go for it ? its bloody annoying i havent ridden in over a month and i am missing the wind in the air,if i had any that is.
Dave

What's the markings on your existing CDI? If it's a later model, I should be able to scrounge up an electrical diagram and confirm what the connections should be for it to work. Although, as it sometimes works, I'd guess they are actually correct, but there's no harm in knowing exactly what you're playing with.

50 quid seems a good enough price for a CDI (cheapest I've seen was around a ton USD) and if it doesn't fix the problem, at least it will get you back to "stock" (and you can sell on your existing one to cover the cost, I guess, consider it a loan to your bike :).

It's an intermittent "sometimes it will, sometimes it won't" thing, isn't it? God, those are annoying.

If you've got a new alternator on, and it tests OK, the issue is unlikely to be the alternator side wiring (it would seem unlikely that you get identical symptoms from 2 separate pieces of gear), and if it works sometimes at least, you know the rotor side of the pulser is good, which leaves CDI connection, CDI, CDI-Coil connection, CD earthing, loom / switchgear issues, coil earthing, coil, HT lead and plug cap

Have you checked where the HT lead comes out of the coil? Apparently the HT lead cracks and sparks to earth there, mine has a shitload of bathroom silicone sealant on it (for exactly that reason, I think). I found a link showing how to redo these coils with a completely new HT lead, but frankly the silicone approach seems a reasonable bodge.

Double-check and clean the CDI - alternator connections. Again, I'm sure, and don't forget the pulser 3-way connector :)

A new, stock, CDI would eliminate the existing CDI from the equation entirely, which leaves the loom, coil earth connection, and the plug cap. Certainly worth a shot if you're relatively sure the coil and HT side are good, gets you back to stock, and is unlikely to leave you far out of pocket if it turns out to be the same.

If you think the coil or HT lead is toast, cheapest replacement might be a C-90 stepthrough coil. But don't quote me on that.

Simon

Simon,
i am chasing my tail here. i have re checked the alternator ands there is an open circuit between the red and brown wires so i guess that will need a rewind if i can find someone in Essex to do it! the original alt was out of spec as well i did try to cut the wires back(to see if the wires were broke) but it didnt make a difference. so now i am changing my opinion and thinking may be the cdi dose work. the cdi colours are as follows:red,brown,black,black/white,orange,white,green,green,red/brown,blue/yelllow.i know what you mean with the coil i did change the ht but decided to buy a new coil anyway. there is a light blue and dark blue wires that have been cut off at the cdi box. i know i will get there in the end but:eek3:

cheers
Dave

Open circuit? As in "zero resistance"? That's probably be a short between red and brown between the coil connections in the alt itself, and the loom connection (especially if there's no path to earth from either the red or the brown). You can verify this by pulling the sidecover (*again*, I know, I know), and measuring resistance between the red and brown solder points on the coils themselves, see if those are in spec.

If the coils are in spec, you can avoid a full rewind and just do a rewire. Short term, you might be able to make it all sorta work by individually wrapping red and brown in electrical tape, then re-taping the whole lot being careful to keep the 2 wires away from one another, although failures of this type generally occur at the exit through the casing. I'll whip the sidecover off mine (my gaskets are already ****ed beyond all recognition, so once more won't hurt), get a photo to show the points you wanna look at, if you like.

Simon

Come on Guys!
This is making very painful reading, will be of no help to anyone else in a similar situation and is surely limiting any help people may be prepared to offer!!!

Dave has just said that he has an OPEN circuit, ie. INFINITE resistance. This is the exact opposite of a SHORT circuit or ZERO resistance!
These two states prove different conditions and require different solutions.
The CDI unit wiring is;
Orange = low-tension feed to HT coil
Black = earth
Black/White = ignition switch & kill switch short to earth
Red = 12v battery feed (or the Red & Brown wires may be the ignition source coil - a continuity test will tell)
Red/White & Green/White for the pulser coil
I can't help with any others, as reading back through the previous threads, there are too many guesses and variations to be of any use.
State clearly what you have and more help will follow.....

Oh, DUH! Brainfart on my part there. Blame it on lack of caffeine :)

Still, I am almost certain it's nothing to do with the CDI, and that the problem lies either in the wires to the generator or in the generator itself. As it's an intermittent problem, and it showed up when Dave untaped and retaped the wires from CDI to generator, I suspect a break in one of those wires. Pulling the alternator and continuity testing the coil from the tap points, and the red and brown wires to the tap points, will show where the fault is. If it's in one of the wires (as I suspect), then it's only a case of replacing at least one of (but if I was doing it I'd do both of, if not the entire set) those wires. If it's in the ignition source coil, then it's rewind time.

All correct apart from the bit I bolded - on a CDI, the battery plays no part whatsoever. Brown and red are the ignition source coil, there's no "may" about it :)

FWIW, there's 2 red wires on these bikes. One from the genny to the CDI, and one from the battery to the main contact switch (via the fuse, and with a feed from the reg/rect). Difficult to mix them up, but if you did the results would be - erm - "bad".

The CDI Dave has is not from a 500, far as I can tell, and it's been "bodged" to work with the 550's electrics (2 wires left floating at the CDI would strongly indicate that), but apart from the possibility that one of the connections is going intermittent, I can't see that it's anything to do with the problem anyway.

I haven't managed to find a CDI with the exact set of wires Dave's has, it could be an aftermarket replacement - Dave, what's it got marked on it, just out of interest?

Simon

Hi guys,
Thanks for the responses very helpfull. i have been lacking in the caffine department as well. i will let you know the outcome. i am going to try the re-wire first as when i double checked/moved the wires i got the reading i should have(fingers crossed!)
Simon as for the cdi i am afraid it has not got any markings on it,but i would guess its an after market item as it hasn't any lugs on it for attaching to the bike
cheers
Dave:mchappy:

Any joy, Dave?

hi Simon,
no not as yet,just not had the time which is bloody getting on my nerves.
waiting on a cdi .will keep you posted
cheers
Dave

Simon,
i have checked the wires from the alternator and all appear to be within the tolerances that they should be. the old one had lots of dodgey wires the other one that i replaced it with did need some new connections etc,so i am fairly confident that my cdi is playing silly buggars.
i have just got to try and find one as i missed out on the one that i was after!
Dave

Grounded?
 

I can't get a spark, I've changed the plug, and all of my ohms are in spec. I noticed above that Tufty says the red and brown wires coming from the alternator shouldn't have any connectivity between the wire and ground. both do have around 300 ohms of resistance when I test them with the multimeter.
what would this mean? is the coil grounded? I can see no visible contact points or stripped wires. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

btw this has had me grounded from riding through some very nice weather; I'd love to be back on the road!

Anyone know IF the stator from a 1st gen. XT6 will work on a 550?
Got a friend that's facing this problem currently.....seems that IF a 550 stator can be found....it's Astronomically priced!:rolleyes2:
Was hoping a stator from an early XT6 could work....as they seem a bit easier to find.

ANY input on this would be GREATLY appreciated!:thumbup1: