TT600R poor/difficult/impossible starting
 

Hello to one and all,
I am a neebie who has come on here after reading all of the good advice about starting a TT600R, especially with regard to kickstarting a 2001 model!

This has got very difficult recently and I have been following/reading all of the previous information while breaking my ankle in the past few days. I am concentrating on the fuel as the likely problem (so ignoring, at present anyway, all the equally good advice in previous threads concerning the electrics) because I have had the tank off recently and, like a fool, it was well shaken up when it was replaced: I can't be sure that this is the cause but it seems like a "good" coincidence.

So, up to now I have managed to get it going by banging away at the float bowl with the handle of a hammer while releasing the drain screw at the bottom and allowing fuel to run all over the oil tank - having got it under way and up to temperature with lots of use of the kickstart, I then adjusted the kick start decompression cable which certainly was too slack and this is now adjusted to about 1mm of clearance (when hot).

So far this has made it marginally more likely to start but only without any use of the manual choke and only after a fair bit of kicking over (perhaps 6 -10 uses of the kickstart). It used to need the choke fully out when cold and now it doesn't basically, and a "wiff" of throttle helps on occasions when it sounds like it wants to fire; everyone here says this should never be done, but "needs must".

Can I ask you all for your best advice on what needs to be fixed next and does the lack of choke mean that the bike is running rich?
:helpsmilie:

Dave
ps I have a 2004 manual on cd but that does not say anything about kick starting, of course, nor anything about manual choke operation.

Hmmm
 

Almost sure it is the setting of the idle mixture screw. In front of float bowl, inside a cast-on little pipe, your little screwdriver should point upwards. Do not know the standard setting, something like 2.5 - 3 turns out. Then, adjust as necessary, see earlier posts.

Another thing to think of, what happened to it that suddenly it became so hard to start, this might be the key to the problem.

Auke

Hi Auke,
Thanks for your thoughts on this; as I mentioned, I "hope" this is caused by shaking the fuel tank around and getting a bit of muck in the wrong place - Been trying again today and it starts up much as I described yesterday, however today it needed about 1/4 of the choke setting to get going, after a lot of kicking (around 30 times)!
That pilot jet screw is not exactly easy to get at! I guess I need a right angle screwdriver unless you have a better idea; there are loads of pipes in the way for a normal screwdriver handle.

The bad news is that I took another look at the kickstart decompression cable (that I adjusted recently) and the bottom end came away in my hand (I have not had this bike very long, so everything on it is new to me). It does not appear to be threaded on that end so I guess it has snapped off at the kickstart connection (and it looks like a case of removing the cover plate that lies behind the general area of the footpeg to replace it - does anyone know if this is that simple?

Thanks again,
Dave

Easy
 

To change the decompression cable. Remove tank, footpeg, little cover. Shows itself.
Adjustment of mixture screw: I always use a flat screwdriver bit, like the ones they use in batterypowered screwdrivers. I explain the blisters after the adjusting to my closests by saying I poured boiling teawater over my hand.

Gd lk!
Auke

Thanks again for the info.

In my 2004 manual it does give the pilot screw setting as 2.75 turns out +/- 0.5, or 3 1/2 turns out, depending on which page you read!

I've been behind that little cover to find just a clevis pin on the end of the spring loaded lever and the bike is now just about impossible to kick over, so I am guessing that it snapped today.

So, I am now looking for a new decompression cable as well as a new speedo cable (I haven't mentioned that before, but it snapped on my first ride!) :(
Does anyone know a reliable supplier of such cables for the TT600R (online or mail order) because no one seems to carry them in stock is my experience with the speedo cable hunting to date.
Cheers

Dave

I used MOTOWARD, I looked at my microfiche and found it was the only blurred number on the bloody thing! I phoned them and he knew straight away which cable and popped one in the post (de-comp cable). Adjust cold to 1mm free movement as described in clymer XT manual.

Decompression should be set when the bike is stone cold.. and to the book specification..

I would remove and clean the carb, put it back to factory settings and check there is a good CONSTANT spark.

Ed

Thanks for the updates guys!
I was afraid there would be more work to do! :rolleyes2: Not looking forward to pulling the carb to bits because it is many years since I did that and my 2004 cd says that this beast has two of them with mutiple jets in the primary one.
So, are there any hot tips on what to watch for when stripping the carb(s), bearing in mind that my cd refers to the 2004 model that I guess has an automatic choke and whatever else came along since 2001?
I guess I may as well get on with this while I am getting the new cables ordered - thanks for the suggested supplier, Leigh.

For the spark, is there any particular reason to say this must be "CONSTANT"? - being a 4 stroke, it should fire once every two rotations of the crank?

Thanks once more,

Dave

Your original post says it has just recently gotten hard to start as opposed to not so hard to start earlier.
This means something has changed
Possible culprits could be a very dirty airfilter (makes the mixture very rich)
or valves getting tight ( check them especially if the bike has high mileage)
old sparkplug
The fuel filter (screen) inside the tank AND the itty bitty screen inside the carb bowl

If you have fuel and a good spark your TT should fire regardless of a broken decomp cable.

Lotsa luck
Lar

Thanks Lar, More work, so be it!! Where is that filter that is in the bowl - is it obvious when the bowl is opened?

Cheers,


Dave

Hi Dave

This fuel screen sits above the float needle/valve body. (about 6mm. dia.)

Best wishes Alec.

the screen in the carb bowl is part of the needle valve # 42 in this pic
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...TT600RE/13.jpg

pick it out with a dental pick and toss it, install a good quality inline fuel filter from an automotive supply place instead

98% of all carb problems are schmutz related


i read it on the internet so it must be true

Hi
My TTR can also be hard to start from cold at times, when hot no problem.
If you have to give the bike a bit of throttle to start I would try turning the throttle stop on the carb. The bike will tick over a bit faster but I find it better to start like this and not touch the throttle.
Also make sure lights are off including indictors and brake lights (dont hold front brake on)
Does your bike have a switch on the side stand and also a netural light?
I have by passed the switch on the stand and my netural light is not connected.

I had real trouble trying to start my bike one day and after 1 hour kicking started to push the bike home I tried bump starting wheel just locks up. I kicked it over after trying to bump and had a mass kick back and tore the ligaments in my ankle but the bike started.
I think the bike might have been in false netural so would not start but when I tried bump starting I found proper netural. Bike kicked back cause it was flooded.
I even managed to start it with my left foot balancing on crutches when I left the hosptial

Stop!
 

Carbs always never go wrong, so it's certainly not the first thing to rip apart when the bike refuses to start. If sufficient fuel comes through (which you checked by repairing the sticking float needle) there's certainly enough just to start and idle. So, problem is not there.
Start at the beginning:
- Correct adjustment of idle mixture. On my 2002 TTR, I set it at abt 3,5 turns out. Starst well now
- Have the decompression mechanism in good order: good cable + reasonably well adjusted (to do this with engine stopped, turn crankshaft to TDC at end of compression stroke, adjust cable to 0,5 mm play)
- Make sure that while kicking there is no consumer of electricity switched on: headlight, taillight, whatever. Also, do not apply brake (brakelight!). I do not have a good explanation for this, but on all TTR's I know this helps.

If this does not work, we'll decide to scrap it or go for more intrusive surgery.
Auke

Hi to all and thanks for the information.

I've ordered the new decompression cable from Moto-Ward and that will be about a week to arrive, taking into account the weekend and ordering it because it is not in stock; until that is fitted I don't intend to be kicking over the bike because I may as well let my ankle recover!! I certainly don't want to end up with ligament treatment in hospital:(
By the way, very reasonable delivery charges which is refreshing nowadays, especially compared with those who have big glossy catalogues!

Alec, I have that diagram on my cd and I see/understand what you are indicating - I guess the tiny thing that looks like a washer in the needle valve set is in fact the filter - I also read somewhere else in this forum that this filter should be ditched and replaced with an inline version - has anyone actually done this and, if so, what was the effect?

Auke, I have checked the pilot screw and it was exactly 3 turns from fully in, so I have returned it to that position using a screwdriver bit from an electric drill - as you say not the easiest tool to handle and it is not easy to be sure about the extent of turning the screwdriver bit.

Recapping, I still think there is a potential problem with fuelling based on my disturbance of the fuel tank recently - a hunch basically. I cannot be sure that the kickstart decomp cable has just broken - it could have been like that for a while and, up to now, I have assumed that the electrics are in good order (? :rolleyes2: )

Also, I don't know anything about the history of the bike, having just got it. It is 6 years old and there is some evidence, to say the least, that it has been off-road - this based on the amount of muck in "the difficult to get at places". So, I will take a look at the obvious electrics like the spark plug gap while the cable is on the way to me in the next week. When the tank was last off, I glanced at the bits and pieces of electrical stuff under there and they all looked very clean and in good order, visually; no cables hanging loose or other nasties.
How do you bypass the sidestand switch? - is that just a case of running a bit of wire across the switch or removing the switch all together? I am sure that the bike is in neutral because it moves about quite easily as I kick it over, but I do kick it over with the sidestand down (I have developed a technique of leaning on the saddle to get greater leverage on the kickstart lever with the bike leaned over and onto the sidestand) so you have me thinking about that now!! Yes, the neutral light is working and it "shows" when the kickstart is operated, which has been re-assuring that something is working correctly. Incidentally, the killswitch is wired correctly and it works OK i.e. the engine dies when it is switched to off.
I used to hold the brake on to steady the bike a bit more but I have got out of this habit since reading earlier bits of this forum, so there are no lights on, other than the neutral light - surely that does not consume a lot of current?

That's about the state of the nation today,
Cheers for all the advice,

Dave

Fun:- somewhere between :funmeterno: and :funmeteryes:

I stripped and rebuilt my carbs on the 2001 TTR, I chucked the filter too, starts much better (was clogged with mystery goo).
Just take your time, don't lose any bits and set float height, carb balance etc according to spec.

Continued
 

removing the little malicious filter will not help in yr partcular case, see my earlier post. In general however, it is a good idea. When it is clogged up you will notice that the bike runs fine at no or low load, but at higher speeds it does not let through sufficient fuel, so engine will slow, pick up again etc. It's not a roadside repair to clean it, that's why people remove it and install the inline filter.
To check the state of the filter, have a 1 liter bottle, connect to the drain hose of the carb. Open fuel tap, open drain plug. If the 1 liter fills up from the tank within 4 minutes (approximately!!) your fuel feed system is OK.

Check for good earth connection at the earth (black wire close to the coil. The coil body, the wire should be well connected to the frame.

And wait for your cable.

Auke

Thanks for the information guys.

Leigh, how old was your TTR/how many km had it done when you cleaned the carbs?
Also, are there any essential special tools needed to set the float height and for anything else while putting it back together and setting it up? I have definitely learnt over the years that it is often easier to take something apart than to put it back together!

I am certainly waiting for the decomp cable to arrive and get that set up correctly; could be that is the only problem (what happened to my faith in fuel problems)!!? Firm belief in changing/adjusting/altering/fiddling with one thing at a time and checking for the effect before moving on is the theme for today.

In the meantime, the seat and tank are off again and all of the obvious electrical connnections look OK. I have un-bolted the small black earth cable near the coil on the right side of the frame and all of that connection is bright shiney metal on the wire connector and the bolt. In fact. all of the connectors look clean and sound (+ the air filter looks clean enough for an oily thing).

As a thought, has anyone tried taking the float bowl off the primary carb without actually removing the carbs from the bike - just to check the contents for muck?

Last point for today and my current problem staring at me: how to get the spark plug out? Yes, I don't have a plug spanner to get in there! Just what kind of one is it? - about 100mm to clear the head but no more than 140 mm long, at maximum, to fit under the bike frame and it has to get into the tight all round clearance :helpsmilie: (you can tell that no Yamaha original tools came with this bike).

Cheers again all you avid readers,

Dave

To remove the carb I had to semi remove the subframe ( i didn't remove the two lower bolts) to allow clearance. Even then it wasn't easy, just remember to have a decent work surface to strip the carb on, perhaps the dining room table with a polythene sheet on it, if she will let you!
Get a can of carb cleaner to clean it and blast dirt out of channels etc. use tools that fit i.e. correct sized screwdriver to avoid damage to fasteners. Replace anything that looks knackered, mine was all OK apart from aforementioned filter and the fact that the carb slide height sync was out.
Use a cheap vernier or even a steel rule to set float height etc. Use appropriate size drill as a gauge to set slide height etc. Put it all back together carefully and take the opportunity to clean anything that will be covered when you put it back.
Mine started and ran much better afterwards (2001 model that had 30000 odd km on it at the time).
Treat it like a lady and don't beat it when you lose your patience ( or tell her you are just going down the pub for one pint).

Still waiting for the postman to do his stuff for those following this sorry tale!
Next, Easter may get in the way?!

Dave

Recap. Spark + Fuel = !!!!
 

Well, don't knock the postman too soon!
The decompression cable arrived today and is fitted and the bike kicks over really easy now, probably easier than when I got it.
That was a good service from MoTo-WARD Ltd Website (and I don't know them or have any relationship with them other than as a customer).
The cable delivers a clearance of about 0.5 - 1mm for the valve (hard to judge with the fleshy end of your finger on the decomp lever - is there any way of being more accurate?)


So far so good; unfortunately it doesn't start and does not even show any interest in starting! At least it used to cough and splutter about a week ago & eventually fire. The next thing will be the spark plug check but that needs the spanner that is still in the post (from another supplier). If that is "good to go" then I guess the dreaded carb cleaning will be the next thing. I have measured the fuel supply pipe which has around 90 mm of pipe within which to fit an inline filter; will check if that is enough in the days to come.

As someone commented earlier, it does make me re-think what was it that started this problem - increasing difficulty in kicking the bike over comes to mind, but so what ......... that is fixed now. At the same time, it got harder to start while cold = a lean mixture????
While the tank has been off recently, I blew compressed air through the fuel supply pipe into the float bowl (seemed like a good idea at the time!).

So, a few days off for Easter (weather is too good to be fixing bikes) and then back to it.

Still having fun!!
Cheers,
Dave

TT600R - Now it's electrical
 

Well, I finally got a spanner (socket actually) that will get to the spark plug and remove it while fitting under the bike frame - a saga in itself.

So, there is no spark - no spark at all, as in no spark whatsoever (I have read the posts about poor sparks may not be seen in daylight etc but this is a case of "no spark" - I will kick it over in the hours of darkness to check but in my fairly dark garage this morning there is no spark). The green ignition light still shows OK when kicked over and any of the lights will show as well, if they are switched on while kicking over.
The spark plug is in correct adjustment and generally black at the working end - not surprising with the amount of kickstart use recently (!) but it is not excessively wet.

Would be glad to hear what the collective wisdom is for this set of symptoms; as per the original post, poor starting, followed by increasingly difficult starting and now no starting. :helpsmilie:
I have my own ideas/opinion but glad to hear from those who have been down this road ahead of me.


The good news is that the compression seems good and it stinks of petrol while kicking so that is coming through. The decompression cable is doing a good job and it is as easy to kick over with the plug in as it is to kick over with the spark plug removed.

Cheers,
Dave

Success!!!!!!!!
 

Gents (and Ladies),
It's running now!!! :clap:

& it starts from both cold and hot in accordance with the usual procedures.

I went back to checking for good earth connections, but this time around I unbolted the coil from the frame and it was a bit mucky behind there with a kind of patina on the places where the coil touches the frame (and there are multiple points of contact between the two).
So, every point where the two of them are touching was cleaned down to bare metal including the two bolts holding the coil (threads, contact surfaces, everything).
Then with the coil back in place I got a spark!!:cool4:

So, cleaned up the spark plug, put it back, on with the tank and, after a few kicks, there was a big kickback/backfire and it fired up on the next kick.
Job done!!

Thanks for all of the advice from everyone,

Cheers,

Dave

ps I can now leave the wife's bike alone - done over 1000 miles on that while mine has been off the road.

ttr starting
 

i had to do the exact same thing,seams to collect a lot of crap behind the coil.ive gone from 20 kicks to 1-2 hot or cold.ive now recoverd from the nerveous breakdown,although my right leg seams larger than the other one.:clap:

Useful thread?
 

Ade,
It's good when it all works out don't you think?! :thumbup1:

Seriously, I hope this thread was of some use to you - the replies that I got certainly helped me and I reckon anyone who has similar problems in the future of a similar nature.

I would recommend that you check your spark plug lead - I pulled mine on and off so many times that I think it loosened up in one or both of the two screwed joints between the coil and the spark plug cap; the short lead is threaded at each end.
That problem came about from:-

If you liked this "story" I hope you don't need the marathon thread that I had a hand in developing, concerning the subject of leaking gaskets - just after I got this starting problem sorted out, the next issue lept up to try to scupper my riding! It's in this forum if you ever have a leaking top end gasket.

Cheers,

Dave

ps The only other elec thing I have done is to fit a new, Irridium, spark plug - supposed to be easier to start with lower voltage required; certainly seems better, but, there again, I have changed so many things.......... :rolleyes2:

technique
 

also make sure your decomp cable is set right(1mm play)at lever i beleive.then work the starting lever slowly until you here the decomp click and you should feel some resistance in the starting stroke.hold the clutch in and now kick.dont waste energy kicking at any point.my ttr now starts better than some elecys ive had ,lol.

so its plug,coil,carb,decomp and starting lever technique.good luck.:thumbup1:

Starting and things
 

Ade,
More like 0.5 mm play at the lever, when cold, was the advice that I got on another thread - the real test is does it do it's job and make the starting easy!!

For the starting, it is a case of feeling for TDC on the compression of the engine, by turning over slowly (no point in exerting yourself), and then going for the "long" positive kick just after that - not strength but technique, carrying the movement right through as far as possible. Lots of others have written up this technique on earlier threads.

Mine is starting fine; luck does not come into it!!!!!!!!!! :thumbup1: (hopefully)

Dave