Tenere broken in Toulouse!
 

Hey Folks,

A quick question if I may. I'm on a 2008 Tenere (XT660Z @ 28,000 miles) just ridden down from Edinburgh and having problems with the oil..! I'm not asking for help or a hand out, just an opinion.

It's drinking loads of oil (read: LOTS over 1 litre in 2 days), thin black smoke coming out the back on acceleration and oil filling the airbox drain pipe, which when drained and inspected, there's an odour of petrol and a burnt smell.

It has power and starts fine but I've decided to hang on here in Toulouse and see a Yamaha garage. I'm thinking piston rings..? Or valves....?

Funny though....... if it is the valves, it's just been serviced by Yamaha before I set off specifically asking them to check the valves. The rings I had go on another XT600e and got blue (not black) smoke from the back end whilst drinking oil like a fish. hence the thought on valves.

Any takers on something different? reckon the warranty might cover it here in France? I've definatly missed the HU Andalucia meet and am gutted!

Opinions would be appreciated and lets see if the french agree. (Mais NON Monsieur...... la moto est bon, but your hair is a mess!") LOL

does it put out blue smoke on deceleration? or on startup and accelerating? perhaps does it have an oil leak someplace? granted this would be a significant leak, but still.

how does the spark plug look? rings will just put blue smoke all the time, valve guides will do so if the throttle is opened, then snapped shut creating a strong vacuum, which generally pulls oil from the head. worth looking into.

Sounds like you are overfilling it with the airbox clogged with oil - are you checking the level right as you might just be blowing an excess litre out into the airbox and keeping overfilling it? Presumably you've been moving pretty swiftly too which singles don't like so much if sustained....
Even if the valves were out it would not cause oil consumption.
If any bits were seriously worn, I'd expect poor fuel economy too - how's that?
Any mechanical noise?

General rule is; smoking on power points to rings/bore, smoking on overun(closed throttle) indicates valves/guides. Sounds like rings but I can't think why it's black(unless crankcase pressure is blowing oil into the exhaust through the pollution reducing bumf but I've no idea how all the modern plumbing works) eg black because it's unburnt oil mist rather than the blue of burnt oil. Is there a nipped/blocked breather?

fuel economy
 

Fuel economy sucks..! I do ride it pretty hard averaging 75-80mph and the consumption is since Edinburgh 1787kms/113.96ltrs = 15.68km/ltr...... ouch!

The engine itself is as dry as a bone outside and no leaks and it's supposed to be able to sit at 85mph all day on a motorway.

I'm not noticing blue smoke on deceleration as I'm looking forward but checking the oil level is like other XT's (I've had two), after a warming up run then check. I've been checking all day especially when pulling into the fuel station, which should give me the correct level. So if it shows empty on the dipstick I've been filling it to 1/2 way. I did think it may be over filled as the airbox has oil in it but it shows empty on the stick after a long warm up run of say 20kms...... Aaargh!

I've not had a problem with it before I put it in for a service with Yamaha in Edinburgh, I'm even thinking do I have the right bloody dipstick in it!


The bike seems to run ok when there is absaloutly nothing showing on the dipstick..!!! But the fear of running it dry and melting the engine is driving me nuts, so ........?

Nipped/Blocked breather........ hmm, now where the bugger is that?

Poor fuel economy + oil consumption would seem to point to worn rings; 28,000 is a reasonable mileage for this to occur if the bike has had a hard life and/or not been looked after.

If you are checking the oil right, I'd look at the rings - compression test is pretty easy to do.....

Africa
 

The bike has done UK-ZA before I got it. I'll check the pressure tomorrow if the dealer will look at it, But I am in France..?

I've looked on XT660.com and it appears there's a mod which will explain a lot of oil under high revs for long periods of time, but as with you I'm also going for rings. Hopefully tomorrow we shall see..........

Thanks for the opinions lads, much appreciated and I'll keep you updated with tomorrows adventures at the french Yam shop!

As the fellas before me have mentioned allready its probably piston/rings/cylinder damage due to wear and tear.
A couple of other things to look out for is a blocked air intake/clogged air filter, this will cause the fuel mixture to run very rich, giving you lots of black smoke and it washes oil from the cylinder wall, this will wear out the rings and cylinder/piston thus causing excess oil usage, the worn rings will also allow combustion pressure down past the rings and this pressure will force oil up the breather pipe and into the airbox.
Something else to watch out for is a partially or fully blocked crankcase breather, at high rpm the excessivley high pressure inside the crankcase will force oil up past the rings which will then be burned off in combustion.
Let us know how you get on tommorow.
P.S. looks like im not the only one with mechanical troubles at this late hour, I just got in from rebuilding the gearbox on a 885cc Triumph:sleeping:
Best of luck and if the Yam dealers in Toulouse are half as helpfull as the ones in Rouen then you'll have nothing to worry about.

Piston
 

Yep,
Toulouse yamaha say it's the piston rings and might even need a rebore. He also said it couldn't be done quickly and could take up to a month but guided me to an another bike garage and he's doing it as we speak, should be about a week if a rebore doesn't need doing.

It's not a bad place to be as my hangover proved it this morning..!

Mate, if he is not too far through the job I'd get a re-bore, oversize piston and rings done all at once; the chances of just the rings being knackered are slim - better to do the whole lot as just doing the rings is a short term 'fix'.

new cylinder
 

I've just been given the bad news......... ! Aaargh! The cylinder has gone oval?? New thing to occour to me but apparently so.
The choices were.........

1. Get it rebored, takes a month and then requires an oversized piston, etc.
2. Get a new cylinder from Yamaha, with piston, etc. done by friday.

I've had to go for the expensive option (but quicker) as I have to be in South Africa by the start of October and can't afford the time to be pissing about in the same town or even flying home for the time it takes the bike to repair. At least everything will be new so I'll definitely know everything will be fine once done. Plus Yamaha won't do it under warranty as it's a piston ring problem.

He gave me a price for the cylinder, piston and parts and I'm dreading the credit card taking the hit as my trip is completely shot now!!

Och well, back to the pub for another few pints of tear drowner!!

your cylinder has worn out of round? how the hell? I've heard of this with POS kawi bikes, particularly the EX500, but not on a yamaha.

Sorry to hear that.
It is sometimes caused by uneven wear on the cylinder and the causes are usually not changing the oil, those mentioned by Adrian74 above and poor quality engineering.
Given the history of your bike, the trip to Africa and back likely took it's toll and if the maintenance was poor or non-existent, there's your answer.
The 2008 and on KLR 650s have a similar problem and this has been put down to crappy engineering from Kawasaki.
Not heard about it on Yamahas though.
I'd have done the same given the choices you had.

Bigbore thumpers with lots of miles/km on 'em get oval at some point, period.

Its pretty natural when you think about it.

My buddys '92 xtz660 did it at around 80.000km.

My xt600e still goes strong at that odometer reading, but i know it will happen at some point. Just a chance to get more ccm's and more compression :D


But it does sound early for you're bike. But noting to do about it now. Sounds crazy that it will take a month to get it bored and honed. Its not even an hours work. How much is a new cylinder and piston?

est of luck mate and keep drinking...beerchug

I've heard of two other 2008 XT660's at approx the same mileage do the same thing & needing a new cylinder, etc. The cause was dirt getting through or around the standard air filter after riding in dusty desert conditions. The abrasive nature of dust/dirt entering the cylinder wears them out very quickly.
So sounds like the damage was done in the UK-ZA trip.
Bob

silly!
 

Yes,
I'm feeling kind of silly now, gloating the way I did about buying such a cheap new Tenere only to find it wasn't the bike I thought. I think it was due to the guy not looking after it as much as he should have and I'm paying the price now. My fault really, as there's been lots of discussions on here as to whether buy a pre prepped bike or not. I did and lost out. Och well! This time I lost out and not to the fault of him as when I bought the bike it ran fine. I even had it serviced and they reckoned it was good to go.

I'll take the hit, pay the money. My trip is screwed but I'll return home a wiser man and hopefully with a better bike (new engine an all!) I'm heading to South Africa next month and will get to play on my old XT that I left out there so all's not lost..! (Plus the resale on new teneres is still good..!)

New Tenere
 

P.S....... Anybody want to buy a new Tenere with a new engine..... ?

depends, how much and can I ride it back to florida wthout having to take any boats or ferries?

Route to return
 

You could, but you'd have to go the long way around!

Bad luck, but shit happens, I guess.
One thing thats been bothering me tho, how come the French mechanics take a month to do a rebore? Surely a couple of hours to get the barrel off, and a couple to put it back on again, and a day in between while the machining is done. Even if they had to wait for an oversize piston it should take no more than a few days?
Or have I missed something?

this is the french. any success they have must be celebrated with wine, then theres a day or so after to sober up, repeat procedure.

where I am, you can have that jug off same day, at the machine shop by noon, and the overbore piston/rings inbound same day, back to riding home within 4 days tops.

I suspect it is not just because they are Fench. It sounds like the standard main dealer syndrome - "I don't care if you are in the middle of a round the world trip. We have bikes booked in for routine servicing, test etc and you will just have to join the queue.", unlike small independents who are able to be more flexible and even work a little overtime to get an urgent job done. As you say, there are worse places to be stuck.

Bon chance.

OK, a little off kilter, especially as you have a solution already, but,,,

Check your airbox seals, they need to be greased to get a good seal or they will let in sand, which then runs into your engine and all kinds of trouble starts! The barrel/rings will last less than 500 miles with sand running through it.

Make sure you check both sides, just because they are tight doesn't mean they are sealed. If you have changed the airfilter then you need to grease the seal around that too, the OE one is fine but aftermarket stuff can leave small gaps.

Remember that these bikes have a semi-dry sump so they have to be run for a while before you check your oil. Odd but you just need to get into the habit of checking the oil after your ride, not before the next.

Oil brether pipe, it will fill up at those speeds, you need to empty it or it will back fill into the airbox. If you still have the OE paper airfilter then it it going to get wet, break apart and let in the sand again.

These are a great bike, but you do need to understand the weak points like anything else.

Sorry about my earlier post - as told at school many, many years ago, should read the whole question, twice. I overlooked the fact that you had gone to a smaller independent and that even he wanted a month for a rebore.

Yep, it is just the French. I went and married one. When my car broke down out there it took them 6 weeks to diagnose and replace a camshaft position sensor, then a further 6 weeks before Vauxhall UK gave up trying to get Opel to ship it back to me, and asked me if I would go on an expenses paid trip to collect it. Vauxhall were very good & gave me a rental car for 3 months. Opel France were just awkward, obstructive, uninterested, and any other derogatory words you may wish to use to describe them!

me too
 

yes engines nearly always wearthe bore oval, the wearthe front top part more on each power stroke.

I have to say on teh way back from Poland I had to abandon my bike in Antwerp with a failed big end :( I think it was caused by a poorly performing oil pump.

All pistons are made new oval so that is why the bore wears oval.

Its sooooo frustrating trying to get anything done in France but you get used to it quick or it really gets to you!

even as a patient man, I wont be going to france then. screw that. if I have to wait more than a week for an air filter, I buy another one online and tell the shop to refund me my money.

heh, you should be glad I keep the rest of my feelings to myself.

:thumbup1::thumbup1::rolleyes2::rain:

Ha, ha. I revisit my ideas on the French on a daily basis mate, I have about twice as many French friends and family as I do British, but nothing will ever convince me that they are going to get any quicker at getting things done. That's not to say they are not lovely people otherwise, I married one after all, but let's be honest eh? Every nationality has their own faults don't they? No need for a :taz: that assumes our only experience of the French comes from a Jeremy Clarkson programme :laugh:

Yours truly :euro:

(I assume you're French or an ex-pat are you?)

Viva La France!
 

The French are great people.
I broke down in Rouen last year on my way back from the south of France and I was given the use of a workshop, tools and a lift in a main Yamaha dealership to fix my bike and they would'nt take any payment!
My experience is that if you treat people with a little respect then they will treat you with respect.
Unfortunately having said that, some people are just so ignorant/dumb, that all they do is throw stereotypes around.
I hope it all works out for you down there, I have a feeling it will.:thumbup1:

My comments are based on extensive experience of life in France, being married into a French family, and of working in the UK for a French company. 900FantRider lives in France. Ignorance nor lack of intelligence come into either opinion. The French do in general take a long time to get things done. And BobtheBiker's comments couldn't be more tongue in cheek if he tried. Your experience is of one breakdown? FFS get off your self righteous high horse.

:sleep1::sleeping::yawn:

:(WTF?
Ralph, My comments were not directed at you or anyone else on this thread!
And if you or others have been offended by what I wrote well then I appologise, they genuinely were not aimed at any of you, and why would they be?
They are just my opinion some people I have met over the years who have a bad opinion of France, these people usually have never even visited the country and this is why I said they were ignorant/dumb.
My opinion of France comes from a couple of short family breaks there and a bike trip I took there last year, and of course the breakdown in Rouen!
Im heading over there again in a couple of days on the bike.
I also spent about 4 years working for a French company, good times.
I suppose I could have worded my post a little clearer so as to be clear as to who I was referring to.
Anyway, I hope thats all cleared up now.

P.S I could do with a high horse, Im quite short you see:smile3:

Fixed!
 

Ladies and Gentlemen,
My apologies for the lateness in my replies but I've been a bit of a busy chap since my last foray on here but here goes with the catch-up!

The bike needed a rebore due to the Nickasil lining in the bore having come away. The cylinder had to be sent to Paris (from Toulouse) to be recoated. This took 10 days as apparently it not only needs boring to remove the old lining but the new one needs 'tempering' and that's what takes the time. Whether this is true or not I wasn't really in much of a position to argue as I was getting pissed in Toulouse on my enforced 'garage' time, the mechanic couldn't get a hold of me and progressed with the job anyhow.

When the cylinder came back, the refit was with a new piston, rings, cam chain, valve seals, oil, filter, blah blah blah. I did ask for some of the extra stuff to be done for I thought, if the bugger is in bits he might aswell do the lot and be done with it. The return was as boring as hell. Only able to do the B roads as I had to settle in the new cylinder and after the 1700kms back to Scotland It's been in storage as I had to fly immediatly to South Africa. Where I managed to make up for a shit France trip with a ride to Cape Aghulas in ZA and finally finishing the Africa trip on my old XT!!
Since then I've seen the bike once, last week as I had 2 days in Edinburgh before flying out to the Middle East. It starts at least, LOL!!

Looking back, it could have been a warranty job but that meant I had to get it back to the UK and piss about with the issues that would have raised. I didn't have the patience and had the money so thought F**k-it and got the job done there and then. Its actually cost me the price it would have if I bought it for the 'right' price, so I don't think I've lost out but have gained SOOO much knowledge and now have a 'new' engine. We live and learn and I'll chalk it up to experience.
I'm comfortable the bike is running perfect after 1700kms getting back home and I'll be shipping it down to South Africa in the New Year and get some exploring done on it...... finally!